Post: #26

(08-22-2015 11:01 PM)RBerkley Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 10:58 PM)Soyouz Wrote:  You can say that you adapt well to new environment, and you will adapt well to the Canadian job market.

Give examples of your last jobs where you had to adapt.

I'm only in Toronto for 4 years, 1.5 years I had to do back Grade 12...so within the past 2.5 years, the job I had for a year was working as a work study student, and I really had to adapt not to "offend" any feminist.

Mostly adapting in the Canadian job market is being politically correct and catering to feminist views.

Huh? You have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge but you came to Canada and had to redo grade 12?

Post: #27

(08-22-2015 11:05 PM)komatiite Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 11:01 PM)RBerkley Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 10:58 PM)Soyouz Wrote:  You can say that you adapt well to new environment, and you will adapt well to the Canadian job market.

Give examples of your last jobs where you had to adapt.

I'm only in Toronto for 4 years, 1.5 years I had to do back Grade 12...so within the past 2.5 years, the job I had for a year was working as a work study student, and I really had to adapt not to "offend" any feminist.

Mostly adapting in the Canadian job market is being politically correct and catering to feminist views.

Huh? You have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge but you came to Canada and had to redo grade 12?

I have GCE Cambridge A levels and Oxford accounting courses which were done as a foreign learner since I wasn't in Canada.

You have to complete GCE A levels before you can start some Oxford courses.

Post: #28

You don't get it..People have to do back Grade 12 if they are under 21 and arrive in Canada.

I started GCE A levels at a younger age, 3 years earlier than most students, and I started the Oxford finance program halfway for two years.

While my GCE Cambridge A-levels were used for some credits for Canadian Grade 12, my courses I took from the Oxford finance program are having a hard time being transferred because the Canadian finance standards are GAAP, which is way behind the most modern International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS).

Post: #29

Lol the "Canadian Experience" scam is big Government protecting Canadian workers. Period. You have millions of over qualified migrants that would replace every Canadian in their respected field. Period.

My family went through all this garbage. Its pure pandering to the locals and protectionism.

You think Canada lets in bums who can't read like in the USA? Canada has a aggressive entry policy and more.times then not, unless your getting sponserd, you have to have at minimum a postsecondary degree to come here as a adult. My cousin who just came over is a has a double degree in education and was a teacher prior for 6 years .. He is working at Burger King right now. His wife is a nurse which is way easier to parlay, but until then, she is a cleaner while she gets her CERTs in order. Both of them have 12 years experience in their field, and were trained under a school system modeled exactly after England, but they wash floors and flip burgers in Canada because they both lack "Canadian Experience".

The reality is that without Big Government programs and protections Canadians would get slaughterd in the job market. We have lowest productivity in the developed western world, our companies are too big and inefficient, public sector jobs are a much agree percentage of the job market then elsewhere, lastly, is that Canadians culturally frown upon aggressive work culture that is more typical in other parts of the world.

Canadians left open to real competition would get replaced by all immigrants in less than 5 years without protections in place.

It's a joke of a system. Let the best man work the job. If the Canadian isn't up to snuff then let him get up to snuff or don't let the guy from abroad in. You can't be restricted in only wanting to bring in high level immigrants and then cockblock them like that, its a dumb system that has cockblocked any immigrant trying to make it here.

The immigration policy is just a means to ensure a cheap labor stock for low level work.

Post: #30

(08-22-2015 11:22 PM)kosko Wrote:  Lol the "Canadian Experience" scam is big Government protecting Canadian workers. Period. You have millions of over qualified migrants that would replace every Canadian in their respected field. Period.

My family went through all this garbage. Its pure pandering to the locals and protectionism.

You think Canada lets in bums who can't read like in the USA? Canada has a aggressive entry policy and more.times then not, unless your getting sponserd, you have to have at minimum a postsecondary degree to come here as a adult. My cousin who just came over is a has a double degree in education and was a teacher prior for 6 years .. He is working at Burger King right now. His wife is a nurse which is way easier to parlay, but until then, she is a cleaner while she gets her CERTs in order. Both of them have 12 years experience in their field, and were trained under a school system modeled exactly after England, but they wash floors and flip burgers in Canada because they both lack "Canadian Experience".

The reality is that without Big Government programs and protections Canadians would get slaughterd in the job market. We have lowest productivity in the developed western world, our companies are too big and inefficient, public sector jobs are a much agree percentage of the job market then elsewhere, lastly, is that Canadians culturally frown upon aggressive work culture that is more typical in other parts of the world.

Canadians left open to real competition would get replaced by all immigrants in less than 5 years without protections in place.

It's a joke of a system. Let the best man work the job. If the Canadian isn't up to snuff then let him get up to snuff or don't let the guy from abroad in. You can't be restricted in only wanting to bring in high level immigrants and then cockblock them like that, its a dumb system that has cockblocked any immigrant trying to make it here.

The immigration policy is just a means to ensure a cheap labor stock for low level work.

^ This is the type of commentary I like to read about.

Sorry your family went through that job market cockblocking. That was the purpose of my OP, to warn foreign men about this.

I had to do back Grade 12 high school even though I completed GCE Cambridge A-levels 2 years before I arrived to Canada and I completed some Oxford finance courses for the remaining 2 years until I arrived to Canada, and all I was told I had to do back high school because I was under 21.

Post: #31

Having qualifications from Oxford and/or Cambridge doesn't entitle you to anything.

Migrating to another country is a huge life decision. You probably should have done some extensive research about the Canadian job market before moving there. Ideally, you should have stayed in Canada temporarily to gather some intel, and if prospects were not looking good, consider moving somewhere else. Nobody forced you to move to Canada.

Post: #32

(08-22-2015 11:35 PM)Biologist Wrote:  Having qualifications from Oxford and/or Cambridge doesn't entitle you to anything.

Migrating to another country is a huge life decision. You probably should have done some extensive research about the Canadian job market before moving there. Ideally, you should have stayed in Canada temporarily to gather some intel, and if prospects were not looking good, consider moving somewhere else. Nobody forced you to move to Canada.

The Canadian government pays huge Public Relations monies to tell people abroad that they can have the jobs in their fields by applying for a PR and bringing 10,000$ at least into Canada. While, when people point out this fraud and trickery, they get attacked on forums and online.

The amazing thing with Canada is that people who have American qualifications get discriminated in Canada, yet the United States is generous enough to allow Canadians to develop themselves.

Post: #33

While the OP has not been making his point in the most eloquent way, I can sympathize with him. I've known and met many who have had advanced degrees from European universities in sciences (pharmacists, doctors, even pilots, phds in economics) and yet were driving cabs, delivering pizzas or at best, working as assistants in a library. These were men and women in their 30's, 40's and even 50's. So for these people, for whom, English is a 2nd language at best, getting re-certified might not be a viable option.

Regarding the Canadian schooling system versus those elsewhere, from my personal experience of having done my initial schooling up to high school in France and then, high school and onwards in Canada, I can say without any shadow of a doubt that the Canadian school system is way more lenient and nowhere near as tough as what I went through in France from the elementary school, secondary school and high school. I can't personally talk about elementary and secondary school levels in Canada as I didn't go through them, but from hearing my siblings, cousins and other people who went through it compared to France and other countries, it is a joke. A joke in terms of level of difficulty and in terms of course load.

In France, for example, from the secondary level onward, you get about 10 mandatory courses per year. For each class you get a final grade for the year out of 20, with 10 being the passing grade technically, but the real passing grade is 12. Anything less than that and you're going to re do the entire year! In order to go to the next level, you need to not only have an overall passing grade in EACH course but also overall when you combine all your averages. If you have even one non passing grade for any of those courses, then you have to RETAKE the entire year. In Canada, you only have to retake the course you failed.

When I first moved to Canada, I was placed in grade 10 in high school here. The material in classes were way easier than at the same level in France as I had just finished the first year of Lycée in France (2nde), equivalent to grade 10. When I showed my Maths books from France for example to my grade 10 maths teacher in Toronto, he was astounded and said these are university level maths almost!

High school in Canada is like a big vacation, very easy to pass and get good grades. It really doesn't prepare students for the steep change in difficulty and autonomy required in University here. The French system, despite its major flaws (like making a student redo an entire year for just failing one course just to name one) better prepares students for university as by having way more courses from an earlier age and having the content more difficult.

Just my own personal experiences with the Canadian schooling system coming from the French one.

So I can empathize with the OPs message, but not the way he delivered it.

The problem as Scotian has mentioned, is that Toronto is the worst place in all of Canada, if not North America for straight, ambitious and masculine men. You're still young and I highly recommend you move out west and get into a trade. Read the Oil Sands thread and that will put you in a better direction in life than staying in that miserable place called Toronto. The soonest you leave that shit hole, the better you will be.

So it's all in your hands. Take action and move away asap!

Post: #34

The Canadian experience line is old as time, I have heard it for many years.

They are trying to make money of immigrants by having you re-train. In addition, there is a lot of things that are put in place to protect certain people here in the workplace. I am being very PC when I say that.

VP assessment of the school system is spot on, I too came from the UK around the same age as him. Teachers in the UK teach, teachers in Canada recite material and send you home to do homework. I was in class once with a kid who had a dad that was a teacher, the kid could hardly read. Other kids were laughing at him but I felt so bad for the kid.

I also remember the Not Canada website, not surprised they took it down.

Post: #35

The UK and Canada dont have a ideal citizenship arangement. It is actually much harder for a Canadian to get citizenship in the UK then a American, they cockblock are visas and are much mkew hostile to their former maple syrup peons then you would think. Canada returns the favor to keep out over qualified Brits who speak English that would rush here and take jobs left and right.

So OPs situation on UK credentials being tossed aside here is not uncommon. My old good friend growig up after doing one hear of UK Uni had to move back here with fsmily and tbeh made him re-do Grade 11 and 12. He moved away when we were in Grade 6 and did not return till then, he became a Britt via his parents, he may have lived there as a baby I don't remember.

To the OP I don't need any sympathy for my own fsmilts story, it was just a very good example to use, but it has happened to every high level immigrant that has come here.

Many are forced or see the only avenue to wealth is to open your own venture. But you can't make a venture of your trained skills, good luck consulting with your STEM experience, but the Government will gladly let you open a Tim Hortons or a Pawn Shop.

You either have top tier skillsets in medicine or finance or middle level blue collar skills and do contracting and small scale building and manufacturing like the Portuguese famously do.

Post: #36

Much like the US - Canadian high schools have a lot of regional variation in their quality. I've heard that kids from my town, when moving to the next town over, place 2 entire grades higher in capability/knowledge.

Ontario schools are renowned as some of the worst in the country. They're the only province that decided that students needed two years to do grade 12 with "grade 13"!

Post: #37

From what I understand the OP doesn't actually have a degree. He studied but didn't complete his Degree. I.e. hes a high school graduate only.

The reason why Canada has the policies in place it does in regard to retraining is to protect Canadian employees. This is a good thing if you are Canadian.

Post: #38

Every country has the right to make its own standards. I have lived and worked in Toronto, Qatar and Colombia for employers in those places.
Qatar- unless you have a license etc, good luck entering. There isn't some human rights commission that will sue on your behalf if you don't meet the country's standards. This applies to many other countries as well. In Toronto you have lawyers, PhDs etc driving cabs. In Qatar, they may be working in their respective fields but on salaries much lower than others because they aren't from a certain country or local. At least they are working in their fields.
Colombia- good luck getting a certain job if you don't have the certain quals according to their standards. Teaching English isn't some job I'm talking about, but being a lawyer, or doctor etc.

Canada- if locals need to pass a test, so does everybody else. I had to do it. I have to run through hoops to work in other countries, so should they. Quid pro quo. It's terrible that nurses etc have to be cleaners when they move here, but standards need to be met. There is too much corruption in other countries and this may have ruined it for others. Exams being forged, diplomas being bought etc.

I am and am sure most are 100% for having the best in their country. Best doctors, engineers etc. doesn't matter from where. However, I don't think the government is discriminating against immigrants with foreign quals, they would not bring them in. Bridging programs should be funded more and make the transition smoother; however, standards and all tests need to be passed etc. having strict standards is one reason why there was and hopefully be more economic prosperity in Canada.

Post: #39

(08-22-2015 11:46 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  While the OP has not been making his point in the most eloquent way, I can sympathize with him. I've known and met many who have had advanced degrees from European universities in sciences (pharmacists, doctors, even pilots, phds in economics) and yet were driving cabs, delivering pizzas or at best, working as assistants in a library. These were men and women in their 30's, 40's and even 50's. So for these people, for whom, English is a 2nd language at best, getting re-certified might not be a viable option.

Regarding the Canadian schooling system versus those elsewhere, from my personal experience of having done my initial schooling up to high school in France and then, high school and onwards in Canada, I can say without any shadow of a doubt that the Canadian school system is way more lenient and nowhere near as tough as what I went through in France from the elementary school, secondary school and high school. I can't personally talk about elementary and secondary school levels in Canada as I didn't go through them, but from hearing my siblings, cousins and other people who went through it compared to France and other countries, it is a joke. A joke in terms of level of difficulty and in terms of course load.

In France, for example, from the secondary level onward, you get about 10 mandatory courses per year. For each class you get a final grade for the year out of 20, with 10 being the passing grade technically, but the real passing grade is 12. Anything less than that and you're going to re do the entire year! In order to go to the next level, you need to not only have an overall passing grade in EACH course but also overall when you combine all your averages. If you have even one non passing grade for any of those courses, then you have to RETAKE the entire year. In Canada, you only have to retake the course you failed.

When I first moved to Canada, I was placed in grade 10 in high school here. The material in classes were way easier than at the same level in France as I had just finished the first year of Lycée in France (2nde), equivalent to grade 10. When I showed my Maths books from France for example to my grade 10 maths teacher in Toronto, he was astounded and said these are university level maths almost!

High school in Canada is like a big vacation, very easy to pass and get good grades. It really doesn't prepare students for the steep change in difficulty and autonomy required in University here. The French system, despite its major flaws (like making a student redo an entire year for just failing one course just to name one) better prepares students for university as by having way more courses from an earlier age and having the content more difficult.

Just my own personal experiences with the Canadian schooling system coming from the French one.

So I can empathize with the OPs message, but not the way he delivered it.

The problem as Scotian has mentioned, is that Toronto is the worst place in all of Canada, if not North America for straight, ambitious and masculine men. You're still young and I highly recommend you move out west and get into a trade. Read the Oil Sands thread and that will put you in a better direction in life than staying in that miserable place called Toronto. The soonest you leave that shit hole, the better you will be.

So it's all in your hands. Take action and move away asap!

Vous remerci. J'aller a Toronto pour Etats-Unis 2017 ou Calgary Alberta.

Post: #40

(08-22-2015 11:54 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  The Canadian experience line is old as time, I have heard it for many years.

They are trying to make money of immigrants by having you re-train. In addition, there is a lot of things that are put in place to protect certain people here in the workplace. I am being very PC when I say that.

VP assessment of the school system is spot on, I too came from the UK around the same age as him. Teachers in the UK teach, teachers in Canada recite material and send you home to do homework. I was in class once with a kid who had a dad that was a teacher, the kid could hardly read. Other kids were laughing at him but I felt so bad for the kid.

I also remember the Not Canada website, not surprised they took it down.

True dat. That's why Canada will always remain a mediocre "members only" country while the top talent move to the United States. Meanwhile the politicians will use Roosh as a scapegoat as Canada's economy goes through another recession.

Post: #41

"I also remember the Not Canada website, not surprised they took it down."

Haha. Government censorship or intimidation. Just like how Roosh was defamed, harassed and bullied by the feminists, media and politicians of Canada.

I really believe that the experience Roosh went through in Canada was the straw that broke the camel's back. Many men are going to question the status quo in Canada. Which is a good thing, and yet a bad thing at the same time.

I really hope guys abroad understand the fraudulent immigration advertisement that the Canadian government is forcing down the media. What matters is that one guy is saved from making the wrong decision and wasting years of his life in a country which thrives on leftism, political correctness, state censorship and mediocrity.

Post: #42

(08-23-2015 12:19 AM)Tytalus Wrote:  Much like the US - Canadian high schools have a lot of regional variation in their quality. I've heard that kids from my town, when moving to the next town over, place 2 entire grades higher in capability/knowledge.

Ontario schools are renowned as some of the worst in the country. They're the only province that decided that students needed two years to do grade 12 with "grade 13"!

That's no longer the case and when it was still the case, there was not a grade 13. Instead, students could complete college/university level courses at their high schools and at high school prices. These would generally transfer and people of an earlier generation could often graduate with a four year degree in only 3 years.

Of course, I was the second year to not have OAC courses available to me and had to pay for four years of university at university prices.

Post: #43

(08-22-2015 10:43 PM)scotian Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 10:35 PM)RBerkley Wrote:  Close this thread. Scotian and his personal attacks because I criticized Canada shows how brainwashed some people are. I'm trying to give guys advice not to make any mistake, and this guy comes along defending feminist Canada.

You're a fucking loser who stayed in what we here on RVF know to be one of the worst cities in the world for a guy to live, maybe if you did your due diligence and Googled a few things before you moved there then you wouldn't be so upset with your pathetic life, but you didn't, you stunned moron. Its not my fault that you work at a minimum wage job and have a life savings of under $1000 and haven't had sex since 2009, maybe you should have read my oil sands thread and moved out west to get a job like a real man, many of your fellow Upper Canadians, a majority of whom are "racialized" (whatever the fuck that is) made the move and are doing very well. You could have actually done something with your life instead of being an incel pussy in Tdot, I have no sympathy for you, pussy hole.

Checklist:

1) Called me a loser
2) who can't get laid

What is common here?

By the way, I only knew about Roosh V since 2013, and I was already in Canada by then. I already said I'm moving out of Toronto within 2 years. I just came here to post a video about a cop obstructing a filming of a feminist protest in public space.

In Montreal I didn't see hoardes of cops doing that to people who filmed the protest. Well, Montreal is more sexually liberated than Toronto by far. A nice city to flirt with chicks and get fun started.

Post: #44

(08-22-2015 11:03 PM)komatiite Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:51 PM)RBerkley Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:15 PM)komatiite Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:06 PM)RBerkley Wrote:  I got United Kingdom credentials, which are far higher than Canadian standards.

Yup I know about the scammers who buy their degrees. Unfortunately the scammers get the jobs easier.

I'm leaving Toronto within a few years anyways. I'm just letting the skilled and professional people abroad not to waste their time in Canada.

What exactly is your field? If you are from the UK I'd wager you must come across poorly in interviews or something because it's pretty easy to transfer professional designations across the commonwealth... Have you seen the number of (white) doctors that are from South Africa in Canada for example? A lot tougher for Americans for some retarded reason but I digress...

Some of my Cambridge and University of Oxford credits are not even recognized in Canada's post secondary institutions!

Meanwhile my friends with similar qualifications are progressing to MBAs and Phds while I have to re-do Canadian stuff. What makes Canada so special compared to the UK? I thought the Queen of England II owns Canada.

Yes but what field are you in?

I dont care if you went to Cambridge/Oxford, until you get into specifics all I can do is assume you studied sociology and women's studies since you were so specific about those fields in your original post. Our women's studies industry is pretty saturated so there isnt much foreign talent headhunting going on right now. If you took engineering or medicine at one of those schools then you probably come across as a huge tool in job interviews or are just trying to trollishly stir the anti-Canada pot because there are only very small hurdles required for top tier talent in the commonwealth to get work visas to Canada.

I have a finance background. and studying engineering or medicine at the University of Oxford doesnt guarantee an interview in Canada either. The job market is rigged here. That's why the best and smartest of Canadians move to the United States.

Post: #45

(08-22-2015 07:26 PM)RBerkley Wrote:  Did any of you guys who migrated to Canada ever encountered a statement from an HR interviewer that "you have no Canadian experience"?

You claim to have studied at Oxford and Cambridge, yet your English is filled with grammatical errors.

Either those universities have really low standards, or you are a liar and a troll. I am going to bet on the latter.

Post: #46

Vacancier, excuse me but comparing french universities to the ones we have in Montreal (Polytechnique and Mcgill for instance) cannot be done, the french universities and even grandes écoles are way easier having done the two. Polytechnique I had to work immensely hard I basically had no weekends. In France the students don't show up to class and don't work at all until the last week before exams.

But the concours are extremely difficult I can believe that, everything that is prior to the BAC looks difficult too.

Post: #47

Roundtree,
I can't speak of French Universities as I didn't go to one. I didn't talk about Montreal Unis as I didn't go there neither. Speaking of Montreal, I did one semester at a secondary school there and it was even easier than in Toronto, it was fun, people were friendly and even as a 14 year old kid, I noticed girls were friendly.

I didn't mention anywhere about Montreal universities. The only challenge I had in Montreal was understanding the so called French spoken there. Even teachers I had a hard time understanding them. Kids my age in HS at the time, forget about it! Not just the wacky ducky accent but also the vocabulary. Quebecois and French are two very distinct languages, quite different from each other.

In France, schools from the very first year in elementary, carry a heavy load of classes and high level of difficulty compared to Toronto and the rest of Canada (?). University/College in Toronto are not hard but not easy either, they're somewhere in the middle. High school in Toronto was a joke. I did one year in an English speaking HS and the rest in the French one.

That was my experience. And many others I've met along the years who have come from other countries (Brazil, Romania, Spain, Germany, England, even India!) had a similar experience than me.

Post: #48

I went to a private high school in Quebec and its much more difficult than public school, public school is very easy in Quebec true, but a lot of these students have a lot of trouble during cegep or the 1st year of university while private school students are better prepared.

I hate that education in Canada is not uniform though. In France not a lot of people go to private school its def unusual, in France you really have to earn your way to top Grandes Écoles and the concours are ridiculusly hard but after it becomes really easy. In anglo-saxon education systems going to a private school usually is much more common.

I have a friend who also did an exchange in Prague , he said it was very easy over (a joke) there compared to École Polytechnique de Montréal so for me graduating from Prague university doesn't mean much.

I've heard from french students that want to do an exchange that they try to not go to École Polytechnique or avoid taking all of their classes there because of the workload and its basically not a real exchange experience because you are always working.

Post: #49

Agreed that by having an easy road for students from elementary to high school doesn't prepare the students at all for the sudden and steep hike in the degree of difficulty in Uni/College. Not to mention the amount of autonomy and independence required to succeed in Uni/College.

Yes getting the Top Grandes Ecoles in France are very hard, however, even the final exam at the end of the grade 9 (troisieme, last year before getting into the Lycée) called Brevet is no joke! Not to mention le Bac, at the end of the Lycée is notoriously hard. However, students are prepared for it as they've been trained well by all the heavy and difficult loads of courses they've been doing since grade 1.

I remember years ago, there was a campaign called "degraisser le mamouthe" (unfattening the mammoth) meaning unclogging the giant cluster fuck of useless bureaucracy that was and still is the Ministry of Education in France). I haven't followed things for a while on this, has there been any improvement on that? Have they finally "degraisse le mamouthe" or not yet?

(08-23-2015 11:48 AM)MrRoundtree Wrote:  I went to a private high school in Quebec and its much more difficult than public school, public school is very easy in Quebec true, but a lot of these students have a lot of trouble during cegep or the 1st year of university while private school students are better prepared.

I hate that education in Canada is not uniform though and not a lot of people go to private school, in France you really have to earn your way to top Grandes Écoles and the concours are ridiculusly hard but after it becomes really easy. In anglo-saxon education systems going to a private school usually is much more common.

I have a friend who also did an exchange in Prague , he said it was very easy over (a joke) there compared to École Polytechnique de Montréal so for me graduating from Prague university doesn't mean much.

I've heard from french students that want to do an exchange that they try to not go to École Polytechnique or avoid taking all of their classes there because of the workload and its basically not a real exchange experience because you are always working.

Post: #50

Since the OP is on a temp ban and can't defend himself, I'll refrain from shitting on him anymore, I hope that he learned his lesson. Now, as far as immigration to Canada goes, I think that we have the best damn immigration system in the developed world in Canada! Of course, you'll have people like the OP who feel as if they've been cheated but overall the Canadian immigration system is a resounding success, its so good that the biggest issue that anyone has with it is that our new arrivals are over educated and under employed! I would not trade out immigration system for any other in the world, I've worked with many skilled immigrants in Alberta who are extremely grateful to be in Canada and are making wonderful contributions to our country. Of course the system isn't perfect and Canada as a whole isn't a perfect country and certainly isn't for everyone but I think that anyone who comes here gets a fair shake, they may have to move to a better place within the country, do more training and even work shitty jobs for awhile but I do believe that if one works hard in this country then they will do well for themselves, I've seen it too many times with my own eyes to believe otherwise.