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Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
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Sonsowey Offline
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Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
What a "Matriarchal" society is is up for debate. Some societies may have men on the top but most families are "matrilineal" or "matrifocal".

The origins of patriarchy themselves are interesting to inquire into. Peter Frost, a red pill scientist if there ever was one (http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/) believes that at least in Northern climates, Patriarchy was a result of the necessity of men hunting during the ice-age to provide for their entire tribes. These men controlled the most important resource, and thus were able to establish a social system with themselves on the top. Women could not survive without male hunters, but would contribute at home doing domestic work. Thus the sexual division of labor of patriarchy was born, and persists in some forms down to this day.

However, men hunting do not provide the majority of food in all parts of the world. In some tropical climates, an alternative system has developed where hunting is sort of a luxury, and most women are able to farm the requisite food to keep themselves and their children fed on their own. In some of these societies, men may hold leadership roles at the top, but the typical man is not a "patriarch" and the typical family structure is different. Generally what is seen are men basically not unlike modern players, who bounce from woman to woman, not providing for her or her kids, not raising kids if they have them. Women work to provide for themselves, may raise their kids alone or in conjunction with other female relatives, and men are basically shiftless players who contribute little.

Frost elaborates on this:

"Are African women oppressed? For many, the answer is ‘yes’:

Much popular writing and many popular ideas about gender in Africa continue to rest on the belief that women in all societies in the entire world are oppressed and that African women are particularly oppressed. Even in scholarly studies, the assumption of universal male dominance of African social and economic relations persists. (Saidi, 2010, p. 12)[/quote]

It’s true that women do most of the labor in sub-Saharan Africa. They are, in fact, largely self-reliant in providing for themselves and their children:

In sub-Saharan Africa, the labor of women was usually the work of daily subsistence. […] Hunting and warfare, usually the activities of men, could in contrast produce either a big windfall or nothing at all in terms of male production. […] Therefore, in a very simplistic way, it can be argued that female labor was the necessary labor—the labor from which surplus could be derived—whereas male labor could produce the luxury items, the status items. (Saidi, 2010, p. 15)[/quote]

This argument ignores, however, the greater power of African women over the fruits of their labor. Often, this power was totally in the hands of women, typically older matriarchs:

Quote:The labor of young women, and young men, for that matter, in many East-Central African societies, particularly among the Sabi-speaking group of peoples, was historically controlled by the older female matrilineal kin of the young women, not by men at all. (Saidi, 2010, p. 16)

Indeed, one could argue that African men tended to occupy a peripheral role within the family:

Quote:Poewe found in her fieldwork that the marriage institution was highly flexible and discouraged strong, intense, or lasting solidarity between husband and wife. The male in these matrilineal societies did not produce for his progeny or for himself, but usually for a matriclan with whom he might or might not reside. His role, as husband, was to sexually satisfy and impregnate his wife and to take care of her during her pregnancies, but under no circumstances should a man be the object of “exclusive emotional investment or focus of attention. Instead, women are socialized to invest their emotions and material wealth in their respective matrilineages.” (Saidi, 2010, p. 16).

This situation has changed since the colonial era, largely under the impact of Christianity and Islam. Efforts have been made to restructure the African family, specifically to make the marriage bond monogamous, exclusive, and longer-lasting and to increase paternal investment in offspring.


Interestingly, there is evidence that this trend actually began some two centuries before the colonial era. Previously, the African family had been even more matrilineal, matrilocal, and matriarchal:


Quote:Murdock proves beyond reasonable doubt that the most ancient form of unilineal descent among the Niger-Congo, and therefore among the Bantu-speaking peoples (whose languages belong to the Niger-Congo family), was matriliny. He specifically reconstructs this feature for the proto-Bantu. He demonstrates it through his mapping of the scattered, relict preservation of matriliny all across the Niger-Congo-speaking regions, even in the Kordofanian branch of the Niger-Congo languages, which is spoken far away from the rest of the family in Sudan.

[…] The oral traditions of the Kanyok, who belong to the Central Savanna Bantu subgroup, still remember their shift from matrilineal to patrilineal descent a number of centuries ago, as John Yoder reveals. Most telling of all, the founders of the clans of the Gikuyu of Kenya are female, even though today the Gikuyu are strongly patrilineal. By definition, matrilineal clans must have female founders; therefore, this is undisputed evidence for prior matriliny among the Bantu-speaking peoples of the eastern Kenya highlands.

[…] The historical priority of matriliny among the Niger-Congo peoples in general—as well as among peoples speaking languages of the Bantu subgroup of Niger-Congo—is extensively and convincingly demonstrated by the comparative ethnographic evidence. Recent work in linguistic reconstruction directly supports the view that the early Bantu communities, who established themselves successively more widely in the rainforest and then in the southern savannas and eastern Africa during the last three thousand years BCE, observed unilineal descent in the form of matrilineages and/or matriclans. (Saidi, 2010, pp. 13-14)

According to Saidi (2010, pp. 12-19),
Quote:sub-Saharan Africa saw a relative shift of power from women to men from around 1500 onward—apparently as a result of warfare induced by the slave trade. On the one hand, war enhanced the prestige of men through the plundered wealth they brought to their communities. On the other, women looked to men for protection during times of war.


Was there previously, then, a golden age of non-oppression? And are African women now oppressed? In truth, words like ‘oppression’ are easily abused in a context where the goal of life is not self-maximization. Yes, African women produce far beyond their own needs, but the economic surplus goes primarily to their children. If anyone is getting something for nothing, it is surely the children.


But that’s not how Africans themselves see it—or for that matter humans in any traditional society. Children are literally seen as the ‘after-life.’ It’s not out of masochism that African mothers make sacrifices for them. It’s out of a profound belief that “no one gets out of here alive”—other than one’s children and their descendents."


http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2011/04/...essed.html

In India, we see another example of a matriarchal society, this one with a bit more formal female dominance:

Quote:"All we have to do is to eat, drink, play the guitar and produce children." For all their permitted fecklessness, however, the Khasi men are far from happy. Fed up with being branded the weaker sex and discriminated against, under centuries-old traditions, they have started what may be the world's only "men's lib" movement...

"The father of the household has no power," Mr Pariat, 58, told The Times. "He has no rights. Even if he has a very good character but his wife is a loose woman, he cannot take custody of his children." He has founded the Syngkhong Rympei Thymai ("the wedge that supports the wobbly table"), a movement with about 2,000 members that is fighting for the law to be changed and social structures reorganised. He says its key demand is that children take their fathers' surnames.

"If children take my title they are part of my clan and I will have the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. That means I will have to lead a more stable life. It will take our men out of the rut they are in," he said.

"The lack of responsibility is killing us. Boys are dropping out of school. Men are taking to drugs and drinking themselves to death by the age of 40."

http://diplomunion.com/index.php?threads...tion.8658/

Matriarchy is not a modern invention of Western Feminism. It has indeed existed throughout history in many different corners of the world, in some form or another.

The parallels between men in these distant societies and men today are shocking. Men have no responsibilities, focus on just sex, drinking, drugs, and in our case videogames...

If anyone else has some interesting anthropological perspectives on other female-dominated socities, this is the place to share them.

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08-05-2015 03:53 PM
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CrashBangWallop Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
India is the one that comes to the front of my mind.
08-05-2015 04:45 PM
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Handsome Creepy Eel Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
Something to keep in mind: Female-dominated lines of inheritance (of property and surnames) do not equal actual decision-making power.

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08-05-2015 05:55 PM
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Sonsowey Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-05-2015 05:55 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Something to keep in mind: Female-dominated lines of inheritance (of property and surnames) do not equal actual decision-making power.

Yes this is true, but it is certainly interesting to look at as a society that institutionally affords women certain privileges that were not afforded to them in traditionally Patriarchal cultures like our own. We can then see what differences might characterize such societies, and see if ours is trending in that direction.

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08-05-2015 06:05 PM
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Grodin Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
There is a tribal society in China where men don't have property rights. I'll see if I can dig up the name of it.
08-05-2015 06:57 PM
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Saga Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
I know very little about it, but the Minangkabau in Padang follow matrilineal inheritance of property. Regardless, public leadership positions are held by men.
08-05-2015 11:04 PM
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Eskhander Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-05-2015 06:57 PM)Grodin Wrote:  There is a tribal society in China where men don't have property rights. I'll see if I can dig up the name of it.
The Mosou?
http://www.returnofkings.com/10624/the-m...of-history
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2015 11:59 PM by Eskhander.)
08-05-2015 11:59 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
^That is my inaugural post on ROK. Glad somebody remembered it Biggrin

There is a thread on the Mosou on RVF here. Virtually the same information as the ROK post.

First off, this area of anthropology (the study of matriarchies) is very political, as you might already guess. Margaret Mead-style attempts to prove the existence of matriarchal utopias have by and large failed. Think about it -- feminist-type thinkers here aren't trying to prove the mere existence of matriarchies, but that female-dominated societies produce better outcomes: less violence, more harmony, we all hold hands with the bigendered gays, and etc.

As OP has listed, what has been uncovered and documented are societies that don't reflect a pure patriarchy or matriarchy, but sort-of blended societies that have stronger forms of property rights for women or more control over the home for women.

The Mosou are a great example of this. They have completely female-lead homes and property passes matrilineally. Men have little say in the goings-on in the home, with homes lead by elder women in the family known as "Dapus."

What is most fascinating -- to me, at least -- is how this affects actual sex relations for the men and women. Is there such a thing as "Mosou game?" The personalities produced by this society must be extraordinarily unique:

Quote:Every society reproduces its culture (norms, assumptions, collective goals, etc.) in individuals in the form of personality. In other words, personality is merely the person socialized. The family is by far the primary agent of socialization, with schools, media and other agencies of character formation coming second. These institutions try -- in their own way -- to deal with the common and painful crises of childhood: separation from the mother, the fear of abandonment, competing with others for a mother's love. The way these crises are dealt with -- or not -- produces personality. In other words, personality can be seen as how a society chooses to prepare its children for the reality of existing as a finite human whose needs can only truly be met by others.

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08-06-2015 12:57 AM
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TheMaleBrain Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
Heard about a matriarchal society in Nepal (maybe Tharus?)
They were isolated, did not have writing and the condition were fairly good.

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08-06-2015 04:53 AM
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WalterBlack Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-05-2015 04:45 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  India is the one that comes to the front of my mind.

Mainstream Indian culture is not matriarchal at all.

A lot of government forms have a “son of” box where the father’s name is filled in. Everything is about carrying on the father’s name. People are identified with their father’s village, not their mothers village.

My family is from India and we know our family tree going back 6 generations – we can name all of the men, but nobody cares to remember their wives’ names.

Indian men tend listen to their mothers to an extent, but their father’s word is final.

When 2 Indians of different religions marry, the kids follow the religion of the father. The mother’s religion is irrelevant.
(This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 12:25 PM by WalterBlack.)
08-06-2015 12:24 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
^ So what... That's not what a matriarchy is. The question is, who has more sexual rights? Who determines when and where people have sex? Who has custody and control of the children's education? Men or women? These are the questions that matter.

In matriarchies the women do, and in patriarchies the men do (via marriage rights to their daughters).

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08-06-2015 12:44 PM
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WalterBlack Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-06-2015 12:44 PM)Samseau Wrote:  ^ So what... That's not what a matriarchy is. The question is, who has more sexual rights? Who determines when and where people have sex? Who has custody and control of the children's education? Men or women? These are the questions that matter.

In matriarchies the women do, and in patriarchies the men do (via marriage rights to their daughters).

I can't answer the sex question but in all other matters the man is usually in charge. Many Indian women are raised to have so much respect for their husband that they don't even say their name in public. If my mother was talking about my father to somebody, she wouldn't say his name, she would say WalterBlack's dad.
08-06-2015 01:22 PM
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Bad Hussar Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
I suppose it depends on your definition of "matriarchy", but if you take a fairly broad definition pretty much all societies are matriarchal. Just ask any man who has been married for longer than a few years. Yes, even in place like Saudi Arabia. Women want and intend to have power, in a way just like you do. They can do it the reasonable and sustainable way by being sexually alluring and agreeable and roping in a man to divide labour, or by the unsustainable direct push of feminism. Which will inevitably collapse.

If you want to be more technical and use a more strict Anthropological definition...then close to none. But that really is the fault of the definition. As stated in the OP, matriarchy is less hidden in African societies than most, but I'm not aware of any societies where matriarchy is completely out in the open. You'd probably find it arise temporarily in societies that have experienced EXTREME loss of male population due to war, or the men leaving for foreign lands to work. But it would have to be really extreme.
08-06-2015 01:24 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
This is amazing.
08-06-2015 01:37 PM
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Grodin Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-05-2015 11:59 PM)Eskhander Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:57 PM)Grodin Wrote:  There is a tribal society in China where men don't have property rights. I'll see if I can dig up the name of it.
The Mosou?
http://www.returnofkings.com/10624/the-m...of-history

That's the one. I didn't know there was an ROK article about it. I actually read about it in some dried up wall victim's rant about how knocking down the patriarchy 'let's men off the hook' or something to that effect
08-06-2015 03:45 PM
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Grodin Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
There were a lot of matrilineal societies in pre-columbus america, and I think a few of them could be argued as matriarchies.

I also think that the women in Sparta had quite a lot of power, but I don't think that's a popular opinion and most people seem to think the opposite.
08-06-2015 03:49 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-06-2015 03:49 PM)Grodin Wrote:  There were a lot of matrilineal societies in pre-columbus america, and I think a few of them could be argued as matriarchies.

I also think that the women in Sparta had quite a lot of power, but I don't think that's a popular opinion and most people seem to think the opposite.

The women in Sparta did have a tremendous amount of power when the Men were out campaigning in war. They were given lots of responsibilities tending to the helots so the women would focus on their 'career' and avoid having lots of children, not to mention the low survival rates of Spartan children. Over time the army became too weak and was conquered by a numerically superior foe.

Matriarchies always die a horrible death, yet patriarchies always seem to devolve into matriarchies. There is some sort of flaw of human nature in effect here.

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08-06-2015 04:01 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-06-2015 04:01 PM)Samseau Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 03:49 PM)Grodin Wrote:  There were a lot of matrilineal societies in pre-columbus america, and I think a few of them could be argued as matriarchies.

I also think that the women in Sparta had quite a lot of power, but I don't think that's a popular opinion and most people seem to think the opposite.

The women in Sparta did have a tremendous amount of power when the Men were out campaigning in war. They were given lots of responsibilities tending to the helots so the women would focus on their 'career' and avoid having lots of children, not to mention the low survival rates of Spartan children. Over time the army became too weak and was conquered by a numerically superior foe.

Matriarchies always die a horrible death, yet patriarchies always seem to devolve into matriarchies. There is some sort of flaw of human nature in effect here.

I think it's just some sort of population control mechanism built into our DNA. Kind of like the mice utopia experiment.

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08-06-2015 05:39 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
Do these really count as matriarchies?

What feminists imagine as matriarchies are societies which resemble the technologically advanced present-day patriarchies, not the matriarchies that actually existed in the past. Where men continue to invent and innovate and handle all the other unglamorous without being paid beyond subsistence level and women have no civil obligations. In their utopic vision, men cannot choose to relax and drink and play games, because they as the female overlords of society would kill these men. Ask a feminist this, and she's thinking "But these are patriarchies! The men still have freedom [to drink, not work, to do drugs, play video games]."

So when you point out how shoddy these civilizations were, ala "Wow, no running water or plumbing. Still have to dig a hole and shit in it. What an amazingly advanced way of living!" They grudgingly nod, but in the back of their minds they're thinking "Well it wouldn't turn out like that, because you as a man wouldn't be free to not innovate and build things as you would in a capitalist society. We'd murder you if you tried to choose a life of leisure. That's how a real matriarchy would substitute the traditional incentives for male labor." But they can't actually voice it without having complete control.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 10:12 PM by CactusCat589.)
08-07-2015 10:08 PM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
Lots of matrilineal and matrifocal societies in South America and Native America though how many were matriarchies is debatable.
Marvin Harris made a study of some of them in "Cannibals and Kings" and pointed out that a tribe can be matrilineal yet not matriarchal because that helps a man pass on property as he would prefer by entrusting it to female relatives, instead of male in-laws who would take advantage of his goods and land and disinherit his blood relatives.
Matriarchies are rare because they are immediately at risk from patriarchies who would have fiercer males, since they have more men than women and use sex as a reward for male aggression and competitiveness. He found matriarchy was astronomically rare and would always be ruled out as long as sex was prized and male physical strength greater than female.

He's fairly dismissive about the notion of female controlled societies existing among primitive people:
"Polygyny (one husband, several wives) occurs over 100 times more often than polyandry (one wife, several husbands) and is the marriage formm functionally best suited for using sex and women as a reward for aggressive 'masculine' behaviour. Polyandry, on the other hand, is the form that would be best-suited for a society dominated by women and in which servile husbands were the rewards for fierce, competitive womanhood. Such societies would have little chance of success in warfare against enemies among whom robust, aggressive males were the military specialists. This suggests why so few band and village societies encourage women to collect husbands the wat so many of them encourage men to collect wives."

And that is why matriarchy is rare: if women dominate, sex could not be used as a reward as it could when men dominate.
A man who has several wives gets sex and children and prestige-much more so than if he had only one; a woman with several husbands has no more children than a monogamist, not much more sex and not much prestige unless she carried them off herself.
Aggressive female militants would have almost no children because of the dangers of combat or because of the necessity to stay childless so as to fight, so would be overwhelmed in a skirmish or outbred by neighbours who didn't subscribe to that.
Matriarchy probably existed at some point, but mostly where there's a female ruler and a power structure that consists entirely of men otherwise.

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(This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 05:14 AM by shameus_o'reaaly.)
08-08-2015 05:11 AM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
Bonobos have a "make love not war" matriarchal society. Bonobos For example, when a pack of bonobos discovers some food/meat, they engage in mating sessions to ease tensions/fighting over the food. Also, when male bonobos catch wild prey, the females confiscate the meat. Hence, hunting and catching food gives the male bonobo no sexual or political enhancement. I wonder if many male bonobos go sex-less or die without reproducing??
08-13-2015 09:57 AM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-06-2015 12:24 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 04:45 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  India is the one that comes to the front of my mind.

Mainstream Indian culture is not matriarchal at all.

A lot of government forms have a “son of” box where the father’s name is filled in. Everything is about carrying on the father’s name. People are identified with their father’s village, not their mothers village.

My family is from India and we know our family tree going back 6 generations – we can name all of the men, but nobody cares to remember their wives’ names.

Indian men tend listen to their mothers to an extent, but their father’s word is final.

When 2 Indians of different religions marry, the kids follow the religion of the father. The mother’s religion is irrelevant.

I agree with you, whole heartedly. Matriarchy in India is seen in some of the tribal belts(I read somewhere it is present in some parts of Kerala) but in Northern India, it is non-existent. I come from Haryana and I can tell the name of my male forefathers going back to 8 generations past but learnt the name of my grandmother only in my mid teens.You also forgot that in government forms, the women are required to fill in "Wife of/daughter of", followed by "Mr."
08-15-2015 10:44 AM
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-06-2015 04:01 PM)Samseau Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 03:49 PM)Grodin Wrote:  There were a lot of matrilineal societies in pre-columbus america, and I think a few of them could be argued as matriarchies.

I also think that the women in Sparta had quite a lot of power, but I don't think that's a popular opinion and most people seem to think the opposite.

The women in Sparta did have a tremendous amount of power when the Men were out campaigning in war. They were given lots of responsibilities tending to the helots so the women would focus on their 'career' and avoid having lots of children, not to mention the low survival rates of Spartan children. Over time the army became too weak and was conquered by a numerically superior foe.
I recall that in Sparta, political power was still in the hands of men exclusively. And when the situation changed, when they no longer had as much land and such lack of Spartan men, they took some of the economic liberty away from women in order to promote family values.
Of course nothing lasts forever so they were indeed eventually conquered. But giving women the means to manage households they inherited, seems like a prudent adjustment in their circumstance of severely lacking men to do the job.

In the modern world Iran did a similar thing, actually. In the 90s they promoted women's education, limited population growth and the like, now they've decided they need more people again, they adjust policies to reach that goal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ities.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ma...population

Seems to me that such flexibility in policy-making is key. There's no single correct social order that's always the answer, otherwise we'd all be living in it already - always adapt to the situation you're in instead of blindly following any single ideology.
08-19-2015 12:15 PM
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The Beast1 Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-13-2015 09:57 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  Bonobos have a "make love not war" matriarchal society. Bonobos For example, when a pack of bonobos discovers some food/meat, they engage in mating sessions to ease tensions/fighting over the food. Also, when male bonobos catch wild prey, the females confiscate the meat. Hence, hunting and catching food gives the male bonobo no sexual or political enhancement. I wonder if many male bonobos go sex-less or die without reproducing??

I see this cited often, but I fail to see any connection. Same goes for comparing chimps and humans.

Unless Bonobos somehow develop language, culture, society, technology, and written history comparing them to humans is the Mammalia equivalent of comparing apples and oranges.
08-19-2015 03:05 PM
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Samseau Offline
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RE: Examples of non-Western Matriarchal societies
(08-19-2015 12:15 PM)Blobert Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 04:01 PM)Samseau Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 03:49 PM)Grodin Wrote:  There were a lot of matrilineal societies in pre-columbus america, and I think a few of them could be argued as matriarchies.

I also think that the women in Sparta had quite a lot of power, but I don't think that's a popular opinion and most people seem to think the opposite.

The women in Sparta did have a tremendous amount of power when the Men were out campaigning in war. They were given lots of responsibilities tending to the helots so the women would focus on their 'career' and avoid having lots of children, not to mention the low survival rates of Spartan children. Over time the army became too weak and was conquered by a numerically superior foe.
I recall that in Sparta, political power was still in the hands of men exclusively.

Only at first. Aristotle tells us that by the end, Spartan women owned 40% of the total property. Everything I told you already is true. It's up to you if you want to accept it.

Quote: And when the situation changed, when they no longer had as much land and such lack of Spartan men, they took some of the economic liberty away from women in order to promote family values.

Never heard of them doing this. Either way, it was too little, too late.

Quote:Of course nothing lasts forever so they were indeed eventually conquered. But giving women the means to manage households they inherited, seems like a prudent adjustment in their circumstance of severely lacking men to do the job.

If it was prudent, they'd still be alive. Obviously, it was their doom.

Quote:In the modern world Iran did a similar thing, actually. In the 90s they promoted women's education, limited population growth and the like, now they've decided they need more people again, they adjust policies to reach that goal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ities.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ma...population

If anything, Iran studied places like Sparta and present-day feminist America to make their decisions before their country decayed beyond the point of no return.

Quote:Seems to me that such flexibility in policy-making is key. There's no single correct social order that's always the answer, otherwise we'd all be living in it already - always adapt to the situation you're in instead of blindly following any single ideology.

That's not true - we were living the correct answer before the elites decided to sell us out for their own gain. The fact is the right thing, what is best for the people, is always subverted by evil selfish parties on a long enough timeline. That's why Europe decides to let in millions of Islamic immigrants and fuck over their own people, it's why Europe went to war in 1914, and it's why Athens was convinced to invade Sicily.

Flexibility has nothing to do with it. Either the government has its people do the right thing or the wrong thing. They either make themselves stronger for the common good, or the leaders look for ways to entrench their power at the expense of the people. Again, this line of reasoning goes back to Aristotle's Politics. I'm not telling you anything new, it's been known for over 2000 years.

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(This post was last modified: 08-20-2015 05:03 AM by Samseau.)
08-20-2015 05:02 AM
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