Post: #276

Anyone ever done IF on a bulk? Any advantage to it? Does it slow fat gains?

Thinking about doing IF on my next bulk if so.

Post: #277

I started IF yesterday since my cut is starting to plateau and I want to change it up.

It's gonna be damn near impossible to do this perfectly every day. I'm aiming for 5 successful days a week. I like to drink and stay out late on weekends, which screws everything up.

The good thing is for the last 8 months, my breakfast has consisted of a protein shake with water followed by a kale smoothie. So cutting that out isn't very difficult at all (~300 calories)

Post: #278

Going to have to repeat my post as it got buried on the last page.

How do you guys know you are loosing fat only and not muscles?

Post: #279

(08-13-2016 06:39 PM)Vinny Wrote:  Going to have to repeat my post as it got buried on the last page.

How do you guys know you are loosing fat only and not muscles?

You could frequently get DEXA scans, but that's unpractical and $$$. I don't think there's a surefire answer to this. I know my body well enough that I can tell when I'm losing relative fat vs muscle (you will lose some muscle on every cut, the whole purpose is minimizing that loss). Some systems to implement that can help. Weigh yourself every morning and notice trends. Workout to maintain or even increase strength while cutting, this helps maximize muscle retention. Don't overdo the caloric deficit. More than -500cal will come with moderate muscle loss. I'd suggest ~-300cal with re-feeds here and there.

This might sound peculiar but I have 2 body parts that change when I go from lean to super lean. One is my jawline and the other is my vastus lateralis (outer quad). I regularly will rub my jawline while grinding together rear teeth and gauge how pronounced the serration feels. For my quad, I can visually see horizontal serrations when I get quite lean. These fluctuate with water weight but are nonetheless good indicators for leanness. Perhaps you have your own markers.

Edit: If I wasn't clear. The whole purpose of those 2 body parts is gauging differences in how they feel/look to tell if you're losing bf %.

Post: #280

If your waistline goes down and your strength stays the same, you are losing mostly fat.

If your waistline says mostly the same and your strength goes down, you are losing muscle.

You don't need a DEXA scan to tell you that.

Post: #281

Thanks Balkan and Hannibal.

I train with my own weights at the moment (calisthenics), because my weight went down 7kg in 5 weeks I feel like a feather while doing pull-ups. So it is really hard to gauge the strength. Fat is melting of my waistline but it also appears that my biceps got a bit smaller. Maybe its due to some under skin fat on my arms being burned. I am really not sure if there even is such think as arm fat

I thought the whole idea of Intermittent fasting was to avoid muscle loss. So you loose muscle anyway? Is there a way around it?

Definitely true about the jaw muscle, I feel mine is way more defined now.

Post: #282

Don't worry too much about "absolute strength" when you're training calisthenics.

If your reps go up, you are getting stronger, pound for pound. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you can squat 400 pounds if you weigh 300 pounds. It doesn't matter if you can bench 300 pounds if you're a 250 pound fattie. People get too hung up about numbers.

If you're getting more defined and your physique is improving, you have nothing to complain about. Don't worry too much about fixing something that isn't broken. Do you chins, dips, pushups and pistols and live your life.

Fact is, if you're losing weight (ie trying to burn fat), you're going to lose some muscle.

The point of intermittent fasting is to burn fat without having to go through the rigmarole of counting calories, timing nutrient intake, or going on any sort of specified diet. You just do what you normally do and you skip breakfast (or dinner). It seems to work for me as a sort of "no bullshit" style of dieting where I get leaner over time without trying very hard or making drastic changes to my diet.

edited for typos

Post: #283

Intermittent fasting is mainly for convenience. The best diet for muscle loss is a long (probably months) light caloric deficit (~200-300 cal) diet. However, no one's perfect and this length fucks with your sanity. You don't have to fast to have a successful high muscle retention cut. There's an interesting corollary between intermittent fasting and ketogenic diets, which is why I think these two are best for fat loss; they both suppress insulin levels. Ketogenic diet via eating super low carbs (glucose triggers release of insulin). Intermittent fasting via shorter time window of consuming carbs --> less insulin secreted. Theoretically, this will allow more lipolysis for energy supply and lower your bf %.

There's fat over your entire body. People hold viscera and subcutaneous fat differently. I have minimal arm fat but more back/oblique fat.

Strength can also be reps. If you increase your bw reps then you're getting stronger as that higher rep range would scale to weighted exercises.

Hannibal is on a good point. No reason to focus too much on the minutae in the gym. Half the guys on bb.com are insecure perfectionists that cannot rest until they have optimized 99.9% of all possible inputs. It makes you pretty miserable company. If you're leaning out and you're happy with it, then great. If you're leaning out and you're dropping a bit too much size, then slow the cut (add more calories) and re-think your cutting plans.

Post: #284

Yes I feel lighter so I do more reps, which in turns means that I am not losing strength. The only reason I mentioned weights/reps is in context of me trying to understand whether I am losing my muscle mass. Probably I do, but it is not critical.

It means you can not just go on intermittently fasting all the time. And have to take breaks to gain muscles.

Thanks for all replies I guess I will just go back to leangains and read some more.

Post: #285

(08-14-2016 09:20 PM)Vinny Wrote:  Yes I feel lighter so I do more reps, which in turns means that I am not losing strength. The only reason I mentioned weights/reps is in context of me trying to understand whether I am losing my muscle mass. Probably I do, but it is not critical.

It means you can not just go on intermittently fasting all the time. And have to take breaks to gain muscles.

Thanks for all replies I guess I will just go back to leangains and read some more.

Honestly, if you suspect you are losing your muscle mass, you probably are. Only way to tell is via pics and even then it can be difficult.

Yeah Intermittent fasting and ketogenic are great cutting diets, pretty good maintenance diets (if you're disciplined), but difficult bulking diets. I'm naturally an ectomorph and I can't gain weight for the life of me on keto/IF. They have appetite suppressing effects --> hard to get enough calories --> lose weight. Don't mean to sound patronizing but maybe you should simplify your goals. Sounds like you want to lean out but you're losing too much muscle. These are conflicting. Either lean out much slower, to retain muscle, or get back on a lean bulk to build up a larger base to cut from next time.

Post: #286

(08-14-2016 11:56 PM)Balkan Wrote:  Sounds like you want to lean out but you're losing too much muscle. These are conflicting. Either lean out much slower, to retain muscle, or get back on a lean bulk to build up a larger base to cut from next time.

I've been on IF since March and it has been great for me. I'm 5'8 and have been hovering around 70kg for a couple months now but have definitely leaned out and replaced fat with muscle throughout my arms, chest, and abs.

It's been a slow process of getting rid of my fucking love handles but I can absolutely attest to the results. IF is the first thing that has ever worked for burning my fat while making strength gains.

Post: #287

Quote:300 pounds if you're a 250 pound fattie. People get too hung up about numbers.

I disagree with this a bit...it depends a bit on your height but 300 bench at 250 is quite decent, almost advanced level strength. Improving in the strength categories is a key motivating factor for me, personally.

Post: #288

ALright, I think I'll try it. I'll get an average morning weight from this week, post that on Sunday and log my training progress and weight loss, probably by a weekly average for the latter. Should be interesting. I'll probs eat a carb heavy lunch and a protein dinner, very little snacks.

EDIT: I've been doing this for this week, skipping breakfast and eating lunch and dinner. I do need the numbers to set proper goals though.

Post: #289

I'm able to go 18-20 hours between "last night's dinner and today's first meal" pretty frequently -- 4-6 days per week.

Problem is, I love to eat, and suspect I'm not really getting any caloric deficit. So maybe I'm just going for the lowered insulin levels and sensitivity.

Do you suspect that the body builds a tolerance to the benefits of IF over time, given consistency over other factors (calories/macro/activity/inactivity)?

Post: #290

I've been doing IF for the last 2 years, I wake up at 7:30 and eat my first meal at 12pm-2pm, eat again at 5pm-7pm, and then eat my last meal at 8pm-10pm. I never train fasted, I feel weak when I do, so I typically work out in the afternoon 2-3 hours after a full meal.

If your trying to lose fat or cut, it makes sense to push the fast as long as you can, but once you get to a certain BF% your happy with, its great for maintenance or a slow clean bulk just waiting until noon or just after to eat, I just drink coffee and water all morning. You don't have to religiously eat within a 6-8 hour window, in my opinion all of the benefits come from being active from the time you wake up until you break the fast.

The main reason I prefer IF though is that its convenient, skipping breakfast gives me extra time to sleep in the morning.

Its not magic, you still need discipline like any other diet geared towards ideal muscle gain.

Post: #291

I've been on a combination of keto and IF since the start of the month. Initially I was on a schedule of 16/8 eating between 4pm and midnight however that has tightened up to 19/5 eating between 5pm and 10pm. This happened without any conscious decision to shorten the eating window, it just feels natural.

Part of me is toying with going for 23/1 protocol and eating one meal in the future, however I'll see how I get on with this first of all.

Post: #292

I've done 23/1 for a few days, and the weight loss is great, but the fast break feels pretty overwhelming and it's easy to overeat during that one specific meal.

Maybe blending a few of those in per week would be good... but forcing the one meal to be decidedly Medium sized, not large.

Post: #293

Overeating isn't a concern, I currently track everything. I will give it a test run this weekend.

Post: #294

I've been trying for 10-14 days now, 16/8 everyday except that i did a 24h fast sunday 10pm to monday 10pm. Except last weekend when i drank 14 beers and more than a little junk food hehe.
So I dont know if im imagining things, but i've got some results already, no one else would probably see it but i do and can feel it when i touch my stomach etc.
I do go to the gym 5times/week and i have put on a lot of muscle since last time i tried to lose some fat.
Im 173cm and ~76kg.
I eat around 2000kcal/day.

Post: #295

Edit
@456

Quote:I'm able to go 18-20 hours between "last night's dinner and today's first meal" pretty frequently -- 4-6 days per week.

Problem is, I love to eat, and suspect I'm not really getting any caloric deficit. So maybe I'm just going for the lowered insulin levels and sensitivity.

Do you suspect that the body builds a tolerance to the benefits of IF over time, given consistency over other factors (calories/macro/activity/inactivity)?

Keep track of your macros with the My Fitness Pal. I am also doing very low carb and high fat as well.

Post: #296

^ My Fitness Pal helped me a lot with counting my macros, thanks god for that..

I started IF 16/8 yesterday, will see how it goes...

Post: #297

I keep hearing about My Fitness Pal from all over -- might be time to give it a try!

BTW one thing I have been confirming on my own -- more fasting time between Last Meal and Bedtime >> more fasting time between Wake Up and First Meal.

In other words, if I rise at 8am and go to sleep at 12am, I feel better and thinner with a 1pm - 7pm eating window than with a 4pm -> 10pm eating window.

(My window shifts a lot because if I end up eating late, I want to still have a long fast.)

Post: #298

I went from 93 to 86 kilos in 5 weeks. Now for a week my weight is stable around 86 kg. I still do 8-16 and have 3 meals within that time, 2 medium size, 1 small and work out every day. Did I reach that dreaded plateau? So soon? Will give it another week without changes, and then see what I can do to adjust.

It seems like my body is used to calorie deficit and it tries to make me move less. Except the time I work out, I feel lazier than before.

It looks like I lost all fat in my body except the freaking fat over the lower part of sixpack...

Post: #299

(08-19-2016 04:55 PM)Vinny Wrote:  I went from 93 to 86 kilos in 5 weeks. Now for a week my weight is stable around 86 kg. I still do 8-16 and have 3 meals within that time, 2 medium size, 1 small and work out every day. Did I reach that dreaded plateau? So soon? Will give it another week without changes, and then see what I can do to adjust.

It seems like my body is used to calorie deficit and it tries to make me move less. Except the time I work out, I feel lazier than before.

It looks like I lost all fat in my body except the freaking fat over the lower part of sixpack...

That's a lot of weight in 5 weeks. Congrats man! Plateau's happen randomly and they happen to everyone. I wouldn't fret too much. I view dietary plateaus similar to weight plateaus. What do you do then? Deload for a week and scale back. Sometimes re-feeding/carbing-up resets your hormones, which allows you to smoothy re-enter a cut. Kind of a 1 step backwards 2 steps forward mentality.

Layne Norton used to discuss a topic called metabolic damage. I'm not sure how true it is but essentially it is a phenomenon that plagues fitness competitors that are chronically cutting. When you are in a caloric deficit for an elongated period of time, your metabolism will adjust downwards, and you'll have a smaller window to cut from (starting a cut at 4000cal vs 2000cal is a big difference). This shouldn't be impacting you but could be a good listen if you're curious.

Lower abs are a fucker for everyone. Can't spot reduce bodyfat so not much to say here. My favorites are straight leg toes to bars and L-sits on pirouettes.

Post: #300

Yesterday, I have started IF - 8 hour feeding window and 16 hours of fasting (interrupted by coffee in the morning and water during the day).

First day went just fine, better than expected.


Now, since I am bulking, is it advisable to do IF at this stage, or is it better to wait until I get to the desired weight ( weight is 194 lb/88 kg, aiming for 242 lb /110 kg. Height is 187 cm/6.10 ft)?

I work out 4 days a week.


Thanks!