Post: #101

(06-11-2015 07:28 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  Nationalism would benefit everyone if people actually knew how to get their nations' acts together.

By glorifying globalism you are saying those nations that cannot succeed within themselves are losers. Big fucking losers.

Why then can these individuals and nations not look into the mirror see the truth so they can change themselves?

If you are a fan of globalism you are saying your country and people are pieces of shit that can't function on a high level. Now that is truly sad.

Globalism doesnt require a country to be worse than another to benefit, only that the country has a comparative advantage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage relative to the other. Then they can specialise in what they do best and trade the surplus. In this case... Americans have the entrepreneurship skills and Indians have the dirt cheap labor.

What benefit does a nation have that invididuals within the nations do not?

(06-11-2015 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  Ask the programmers that got fired what was wrong with it? Obviously these people weren't incompetent programmers or they wouldn't have been asked to train the Indians to do their jobs. Disney operates in a first-world country, depends on first-world customers but doesn't want to pay its employees first-world wages while enjoying the benefits of doing business in the first world such as an affluent consumer base, stability, rule of law, safety, etc. And you think nothing is wrong with this picture?

Depends how you define incompetent. Relative to the amount they wanted to be paid, yes, they were. A burger flipper is not incompetent at $1/hr but definitely is at $50/hr.

Also the first world consumer base/stability/rule of law or whatever bs you list is covered by the(extremely expensive) rent. Or owning land.

(06-11-2015 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  What does this have to do with American exceptionalism? This is called protecting your nation's employment market.

Protectionism is a sad scarcity mentality mindset and economically inefficient(proven by economists).

(06-11-2015 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  Why the hell do we owe India anything? Why should I give a shit about India or their poverty problems? America is a couple hundreds years old and created the most prosperous society on earth. India is a civilization going back thousands of years. I'd say they had a hell of a head start to create a prosperous nation and yet people are still shitting on sidewalks and bathing in the biohazardous Ganges river. Let them create their own opportunities there. We don't owe them a thing. What have they ever done for us?

Why do the American companies owe American programmers anything? "Loyalty" just because everyone happened to be roped together on the same bit of land?

(06-11-2015 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  Really, so you think that programmer that lost his 6 figure job is going to make up for that in his stock portfolio? Thus it's all a wash? Lol.

No. The programmer is likely replacing his job... maybe with something marginally worse. Maybe he will get a pay cut/job quality decrease of around 25%. The more incompetent you are, the more you will suffer. But chances are high you are a shareholder... or businessman... or someone who interacts with shareholder or businessmen... and you stand to gain a lot from technological progress(chances are lower than you are affected by the outsource in question. Unless outsourcing becomes an epidemic, in which case economic growth without doing anything also does).

(06-11-2015 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  How do you know those Disney programmers were doing inefficient work? So just because somebody somewhere in a third world country is working for a fraction of the wage that you are means you are inefficient? Well then let's just fire all working Americans tomorrow and bring in a few hundred million cheap foreigners to replace them. We can turn America into one big Odesk.

I dont know. But clearly Disney thinks so and they have the money and the professional opinion. Also third worlders only work for low wages because they are poor, but once they start working they will no longer be poor. Wages only can go down(if they do) because of their poverty; otherwise it would be similar or better(big cities have better wages because of more workers, for example).

Odesk is a thriving website, no? Maybe Elance is better.

Post: #102

Globalization is inevitable. Every generation gets more and more indoctrinated into the new world order. There will be one world language, culture and currency. Digital currency will be the norm. Music will be dead souless radio pop that will carry the mindless masses through their dreary day of filing meaningless work orders for meaningless work. We will all be living in sky high dormitory style studio apartments that cost 3/4 of our income and we'll be happy about it. We'll be producers of nothing but consumers of everything. Desperately hoping that adopting the new trend will fill the void in our lives. All of manufacturing will be done by robots on the grand scale. Feed in raw materials and out come shiny new iPhones. And you'll use all your sick and vacation days to sleep on the sidewalk for 2 weeks to get one. And these will be the high points of your lives that you'll brag about on social media. Sad isn't it

Post: #103

^ I'm fine with the dormitory apartments as long as the rest of the outside world is spotless and looks like a pristine national park with extremely efficient driverless transportation.

Much better than strip mall after strip mall, gas stations, after convenience store.

Post: #104

TL;DR the whole thread. At the end of the day, no one gives a [email protected] about you but you. Not your company, women, the bank, even your own family. Everyone is focused on their own goals first and foremost. It may sound selfish to emulate this model, but I've always been a fan of the oxygen mask concept - help yourself first, then help others - otherwise you both perish.

Post: #105

(06-11-2015 07:28 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  Nationalism would benefit everyone if people actually knew how to get their nations' acts together.

By glorifying globalism you are saying those nations that cannot succeed within themselves are losers. Big fucking losers.

Why then can these individuals and nations not look into the mirror see the truth so they can change themselves?

If you are a fan of globalism you are saying your country and people are pieces of shit that can't function on a high level. Now that is truly sad.

I was born in one country, grew up in another country, and now live in a third country. I am ethnically from a fourth country.

Which one is my country and my people?

Post: #106

The craziest is the fact that many right-wing pundits like Mike Rowe claim that there are millions of jobs available in the US that people don't want to fill, but that simply is not the case.

Post: #107

(06-11-2015 07:47 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  Depends how you define incompetent. Relative to the amount they wanted to be paid, yes, they were. A burger flipper is not incompetent at $1/hr but definitely is at $50/hr.

This is the biggest crock of bullshit I've ever read on this subject. Do you really believe what you're saying?? You sound like a robot spewing auto-generated libertarian talking points.

There is no "depending on" how you define incompetent. There's an objective definition of what the word means and it has nothing to do with the way you defined it.

$50/hr might be reasonable wage for a burger flipper in a country where the median income is $500,000 a year. It's all relative to where you live. There's no intrinsic price of what a job should be, it's all relative to the local cost of living.

Quote:Also the first world consumer base/stability/rule of law or whatever bs you list is covered by the(extremely expensive) rent. Or owning land.

No it isn't.

Quote:Protectionism is a sad scarcity mentality mindset and economically inefficient(proven by economists).

If it's economically inefficient then how did Disney post $7.5 billion in profits last year?

Why the hell would anyone in his right mind want the country flooded with cheap labor? Unless of course you are the top 1% that stands to benefit? I'm actually glad you are posting because everyone gets to see the true face of libertarian extremists and what they represent. The free market originally meant that producers would create goods and compete on price. It didn't mean you abuse your country's immigration laws to flood it with cheap labor from the 3rd world with no regard to what that does to your nation's standard of living and culture. Are you too short-sighted to see how this would destroy your economy by eroding your middle class who are the very people you need as consumers of your products to keep the economy going? That's why Henry Ford gave his employees high salaries(for the time), because they would become consumers of the very products they are making. This is what creates a middle class. Libertarianism would take us back to a feudal state where we only have land owners and super wealthy and everyone else are serfs working for their overlords. These serfs don't consume and keep the economy going. It's the middle class with disposable income that consumes. The economy has to be grown from the middle outward. Not the top down.

Quote:Why do the American companies owe American programmers anything? "Loyalty" just because everyone happened to be roped together on the same bit of land?

American companies owe it to follow the law. H1Bs were not made for the reason these companies are now using them for. They are supposed to be a means to fill jobs that cannot be filled by citizens. What they are doing is not what the law was intended for, and I won't be surprised if there are going to be upcoming law suits.

The total lack of any sense of collectiveness or social responsibility in libertarians is disgusting. But the bottom line is, most Americans should oppose this strain of radical libertarians because for 99% of them, there's nothing to gain from it. If you don't gain from something, then logically you should oppose it.

Quote:No. The programmer is likely replacing his job... maybe with something marginally worse. Maybe he will get a pay cut/job quality decrease of around 25%. The more incompetent you are, the more you will suffer. But chances are high you are a shareholder... or businessman... or someone who interacts with shareholder or businessmen... and you stand to gain a lot from technological progress(chances are lower than you are affected by the outsource in question. Unless outsourcing becomes an epidemic, in which case economic growth without doing anything also does).

This wasn't technological progress. Remember, they fired competent programmers and had to have them train their replacements. The replacements weren't superior, just cheap. Clearly the price of the American programmers wasn't high enough to stop Disney from being one of the most profitable companies in the nation.

Quote:I dont know. But clearly Disney thinks so and they have the money and the professional opinion. Also third worlders only work for low wages because they are poor, but once they start working they will no longer be poor.

Not because they are poor. Many of these Indians come from the middle class of their country. But their standard of living is lower due being a poor country, thus their pay is lower and purchasing power higher even at a lower wage. Bringing immigrants here does nothing to change the socio-economic factors that cause poverty in India, such as corruption, caste system, inefficiency, poor governance, disease, filth, etc.

If you really think this immigration helps their country or ours, you need to watch this:

Post: #108

I've spend the better part of the last half decade living in 2nd world countries in Latin America and Southeast Asia. The one thing I consistently think is how most Americans(who have never traveled or lived abroad) don't realize how life is like for workers in most of the world. I don't really see how in such a globalized free market economy the wages of the US worker will not continue to come down in all areas to what their equivalent job is paid in other countries. This process will likely take many years but unless vast changes are made to our political system in short order it will be too late to reverse the change. One thing liberal brainwashing is good for is making Americans feel insecure about their "privilege" to live in a prosperous country and this will help prevent a nationalistic movement to protect American workers and fight against immigration.

Also as Speakeasy has correctly pointed out shouldn't corporations worry about eliminating jobs or lower wages because that would harm their consumer base. Unfortunately I think that most people at the top of corporations only give a shit about the short term and increasing bottom line sales. They don't think long term about the companies growth since that wont affect sales for many quarterly reports from now.

Post: #109

(06-11-2015 08:52 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

OK, then don't object when American companies go over to those countries and provide jobs and economic growth.

It's exploitation, sure, but taken on a longer time scale it's progress and I doubt if there's another mechanism in existence to add wealth to those countries as rapidly as the free enterprise system.

Post: #110

(06-11-2015 06:54 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  America is not a welfare state for the world. We honestly don't need more immigration or 'culture' we can can read books, watch videos, and travel to experience them. We don't need more permanent residents.

The same people making the arguments of "don't care about race or nationality" are the ultimate "Get Yours" people that make this planet worse overall.

Brain draining your country and sending a check back while creating a cockfest and lowering everyone's wage potential in BOTH countries, the parasite and the host is not noble.

I've got first generation Indian family to my left and first generation Mexican to my right 8 each to a fucking 2 bedroom apartment. My taxes pay for those kids to use the school system and roads. God knows how much money the families get under the table and send back home. 10 kids running around in my front lawn everyday.

Although I don't agree with the firing of these workers, lets not get over ourselves and pretend like only white people pay taxes now. I'm pretty sure there are many Indians and Mexicans with small businesses who are hardworking and pay their fair share.

Sending money back to these countries in form of remittances isn't shit when you compare the amount of resources and wealth the U.S. has extracted from places like Africa, Asia, and Latin America, especially in Latin America. It pretty much equals out don't you think?

Quote:This is money taken away from my future family and prosperity. Screw these people.

I know right!! I've got white families living on both sides of my apartment. All of them with their kids running all over the apartment complexes lawn. My taxes pay for those damn kids to use the school system and roads. Close to 10 white kids and one black one running around all day every time I come back from work. The horror!!

This is my money dammit! Money that is taken away from my future family and planned prosperity. Srew these people!!

Post: #111

(06-11-2015 11:42 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 08:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  If the American worker wants to force me to spend my money a certain way, screw him!

We all have to deal with competition. Screw this holier-than-thou false patriotism.

You shouldn't hire people of your own race/nationality etc. any more than you should date women your own age. These are just things that losers try to shame you into.

You are representative of the type of capitalist that would sell his own neighbor down the river to make a buck. Tell me why it's fair that H1B visas should be abused? You realize that these visas are for finding labor for jobs that can't be filled by locals, right? Not for firing workers and replacing them with foreigners.

I'm willing to pay more to ensure that Americans can have a first world standard of living.

You know nothing about me. You resort to personal attacks because you have no rational argument.

I am the type of capitalist who donates money to the type of poor community he came from.

H1B is screwed up, but it is certainly better than forcing businesses to hire only people born within a certain region or forcing them to offshore for cheaper labor. I'd rather do away with the program completely and allow anyone who isn't a violent criminal to accept any job in any country.

If you're willing to pay more for something, great! Pay for it! Keep your hand out of my pocket!

I don't know you personally Borracho, and I'm sure you probably donate and are very generous, but most elite capitalists and corporations aren't. Actually, they have a horrible philanthropy record when it comes to giving back to poor communities, the very communities that buy their products.

I think the most generous company was Wells Fargo with giving only 1.3% of their earning profits to charity. They are greedy when it comes to earning a quick buck and even with charity. The most generous corporation gave 1.3%?? The rest of the companies are in the less than 1% area.

A lot of them brag about how they "give back" but its really just for show really.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/m...s_are.html

But then again, no one is entitled to give anyone anything.

Post: #112

Geez, there are great posts on both sides.



One thing we should all consider that hasn't been mention is the Intellectual Theft coming from China that ultimately breaks our macroeconomic equations which predict the increased growth of our economy. The field of "Growth Accounting" explains, reliably, how educating a workforce increases human capital, which further accelerates economic growth. I'm not going to waste any time breaking down the equations but they can be found by Googling "growth accounting education", and I'll quote investopedia: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/eco...ntages.asp

Quote:[...]
The knowledge and skills of workers available in the labor supply is a key factor in determining both business and economic growth. Economies with a significant supply of skilled labor, brought on through school education as well as training, are often able to capitalize on this through the development of more value-added industries, such as high-tech manufacturing.

But what happens when foreign nations take the research at top US/EU/UK institutions and use it to educate their own populations? Well, labor supply exponentially increases - shifting far to the right, and with the labor demand increasing at a much slower rate, real wages drop everywhere.

This explains, on an economic level, what the above gumball video explains. But what isn't mentioned is the following externality: data-harvesting.

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2408952/c...ng-attacks
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/educat...gewanted=1

NYTIMES Wrote:
America’s research universities, among the most open and robust centers of information exchange in the world, are increasingly coming under cyberattack, most of it thought to be from China, with millions of hacking attempts weekly. Campuses are being forced to tighten security, constrict their culture of openness and try to determine what has been stolen.

University officials concede that some of the hacking attempts have succeeded. But they have declined to reveal specifics, other than those involving the theft of personal data like Social Security numbers. They acknowledge that they often do not learn of break-ins until much later, if ever, and that even after discovering the breaches they may not be able to tell what was taken.

Universities and their professors are awarded thousands of patents each year, some with vast potential value, in fields as disparate as prescription drugs, computer chips, fuel cells, aircraft and medical devices.
[...]

For corporations, cyberattacks have become a major concern, as they find evidence of persistent hacking by well-organized groups around the world — often suspected of being state-sponsored — that are looking to steal information that has commercial, political or national security value. The New York Times disclosed in January that hackers with possible links to the Chinese military had penetrated its computer systems, apparently looking for the sources of material embarrassing to China’s leaders.

v3 Wrote:Chinese hackers targeted Penn State University's College of Engineering with two "advanced" data stealing cyber attacks, according to the FBI which first reported the attacks to the university in November 2014.
The campaign is believed to have compromised personally identifiable information pertaining to 18,000 individuals before detection.
The attackers reportedly used the stolen credentials to move through the university's systems, although it is unclear what further actions they took when inside the network.
[....]

I've read the security reports, and they are no longer "suspected" - this is going on en masse, and any gains Western University systems make are being taken abroad.



Now when bleeding-edge research is taken from the top research institutions of one country - where do you think they are used? The bolded quote from the second article gives you some clues.


This is being increasingly reported as now American network administrators are starting to pay more and more attention to where packets of network traffic are coming and going. But this has been going on for years, decades even.



Its funny because just a few weeks ago, I know a guy who is complaining that he can't get enough "highly skilled foreign workers" in with his company. He complains of America's stringent immigration laws. The subtext behind this is that he can't get enough cheap skilled foreign workers in the country to work for him.

Post: #113

(06-11-2015 07:15 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  I wonder how many people in this thread would have opposite views if globalization benefited them far more than nationalism did.

At least that you've implied that globalization benefits the cosmopolitan monied élite and nationalism the ordinary productive worker. Don't you think that in a so-called democracy the many of the latter should be benefiting rather than the minute former?

Post: #114

(06-11-2015 12:10 PM)Libertas Wrote:  That's because as you said, it was all shit before that. That doesn't mean that what Zel said is false.

There was no laissez faire system in place before the industrial revolution or even after. He said there was, but that's not true. We've had Theocracies, monarchies, and then through revolutions with republics and democracies. Some sort of tax has always existed in trade in those systems.

Quote:As for "restoring liberty ending the degeneracy", I don't agree. It at least isn't that simple.

The logical end point of libertarianism is solipsism - you are the only thing that matters and you are an island unto yourself. This is essentially what ElBorrachoInfamoso is putting forward here. By stripping the individual from his community and putting him in a vacuum, you encourage vice, greed, and degeneracy. That is exactly what we are seeing now.

I don't see how the end point of Libertarianism is solipsism, when freedom of choice, voluntary association and the non aggression principle are core tenets. Individuals are not stripped from their community quite the opposite, you actually have to bond together and resolve many issues that would affect the community. When governments start paying welfare to single moms, what happens? Do people come together and discuss issues or who's going to pay for the kid or who will provide resources for her. No its completely outsourced to the government. Communities don't exist like they used to because of the welfare state.

Quote:The individual is the backbone of society and must have freedom to pursue his life's goals, but there needs to be a recognition that he is part of a community, with responsibilities to that community's well-being, and we are not seeing that now.

There is no community now. It's all been outsourced to governments. Religious people still have a community though. They're not going to go anywhere even if the society is completely free.

Quote:Which sounds good, and it's a welcome principle within limits (If I had to pick a balance, society should be around 80-85% based on libertarian grounds), but the philosophy ultimately holds no standards of conduct for a society. Once the non-aggression principle is established, it's anything goes. All standards of culture, beauty, and decency are assumed to be irrelevant as long as individual automatons can be free.

That is moral consistency, the initiation of force is immoral, if you are not hurting anyone or forcing someone else to do something, how is that a bad thing for society. You have more personal responsibility than ever before. Decency will actually go up because then people are held to community standards. For example how long will a free love, gender doesn't exist, trade STD community last compared to a religious one that practices decency, traditional marriage and gender roles. Crazy lefties don't reproduce but conservative religious people do.

Quote:By divorcing the individual from any hard social obligations in this way, you incentivize a race to the bottom. That's what we've been seeing in action for the past 50 or so years.

But we don't have anything comparably to libertarianism now, there is no social obligation and people don't pay for their mistakes, everyone is bailed out monetarily, from the top to the bottom of society.

Post: #115

I would train them so inefficiently that the company would have to hire me back as a consultant for twice the salary...

Post: #116

speakeasy's video shows simple math. This isn't a debate or about racism. I think Indians overall are highly intelligent as my parents have a next door neighbor Indian couple that is a father that is a genius engineer with a genius doctor son. Mexican family across the street where the father is ex-military and is a very savvy small business owner.

Their intentions and contributions to the United States may be good, but their same efforts in their home countries would have gone much much further.

We will dilute Western nations down much faster than be able to rise up all the lagging foreign nations.

The best and brightest should stay in their home country.

We physically cannot take in all the immigrants no matter how talented, no one will win long term except the very few corporate owners.

Could you imagine with America's war culture, how fast we could be provoked to lash out if our wages fell enough? I am not saying the individuals on this forum would fall for it, but the masses would be ready to go at another country's throat if their smart phones, and flat screens are threatened, for the mildest of made up dramas. Even if our status falls it would take a generation or more for our egos to handle it.

A falling America isn't just a sad thing, it is dangerous for everyone.

Post: #117

(06-11-2015 11:01 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:15 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  I wonder how many people in this thread would have opposite views if globalization benefited them far more than nationalism did.

At least that you've implied that globalization benefits the cosmopolitan monied élite and nationalism the ordinary productive worker. Don't you think that in a so-called democracy the many of the latter should be benefiting rather than the minute former?

It appears that globalization benefits far more people than it harms on an international scale. Shouldn't the many (the third world poor) benefit over the few (middle class Americans)?

Post: #118

Another problem is the foreign labor that's being imported are coming from a culture where racism and classism is perfectly acceptable.

When they get into a position of power here, they have a tendency to discriminate against everyone that is not "like themselves". They won't hire American's, or any other race that is not their own.

InfoSys has been sued for doing this. Not sure what happened with the case.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/269...rkers.html

Growing up as an American I was raised to treat everyone as equals, regardless of race, disability, etc. so when I first started working in IT I welcomed Indians with open arms until I got repeatably stabbed in the back by them over and over and over again. For them it's no big deal, and an acceptable way of doing business and treating those that are "other".

Now I shudder at the thought of having to work or report to them. I don't mind foreigners coming to my country and making a better life for themselves and their family, but don't bring that racism/classism garbage here and try to build a nation within a nation

Post: #119

(06-12-2015 06:37 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:01 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:15 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  I wonder how many people in this thread would have opposite views if globalization benefited them far more than nationalism did.

At least that you've implied that globalization benefits the cosmopolitan monied élite and nationalism the ordinary productive worker. Don't you think that in a so-called democracy the many of the latter should be benefiting rather than the minute former?

It appears that globalization benefits far more people than it harms on an international scale. Shouldn't the many (the third world poor) benefit over the few (middle class Americans)?

In the long run this only benefits the elites and works to destroy the middle class and the American dream, which could be enjoyed in any country where a govt. is installed that encourages a healthy middle class.

In the short run it benefits a few 3rd world immigrants who move to the west. But in the long run they will get screwed over as well. Like the poster earlier in this thread pointed out... His family moved to the UK for work opportunities in the 1960's and now the opportunities are drying up for them as well.

The elites have a great fear of a well armed, well educated, and proud middle class. It is their greatest fear. The peasants have rights and power, and they want to squash this globally if possible. And it looks like they are not far from it.

Post: #120

This is all nothing really in comparison to what is likely coming next.

All those people who welcome this kind of thing are either completely brainwashed, are one of the immigrating parties who don't mind if they work for a portion of the indigenous population or in the rarest of cases they are actually profiting big-time from it. And even if you profit from it you know that this is bullshit, you are just grabbing as much money from the madness. If it all blows up in the end, you just leave and let the new Internal Army take care of it all.

An example of the evil of our system is the new TPP agreement that is signed in complete secrecy.

Why the secrecy you may ask? Because most Westerners would not like it - that's why.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015...dentiality

Quote:Exclusive: Politicians told they could view the current Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiating text if they signed a four-year confidentiality provision

So you may see it as a politician if you don't talk about it.

The TPP will create a larger unified markets and have other gimmicks embedded in it like corporations being able to sue local governments if they for example build a public street, highway or hospital that impacts their profits they have from a competing private hospital. It has many more such issues and I am sure that one of them is the free movement of labor.

Even if you profit from it, no one in his right mind should defend all of this. This is not only complete madness but straight economic destruction of a middle class that was arduously built up by Western cultures. Now it goes towards a favela-economy and even guys here are defending it as exalted liberalism.

Post: #121

It'd be nice if we, as citizens, could somehow impeach most of our politicians.

Post: #122

(06-11-2015 04:51 PM)Daddy Wrote:  I've seen both sides of the coin: I've been an employee and a business man.
Both employees and employers expect way too much out of each other.

Students fresh out of college expect something like 20$ an hour plus a lot more. They're not worth it. If you're a small business, hiring a new employee for 20 bucks an hour is just not productive anymore, with all the admin BS that comes along with him, and the simple fact that employees are not loyal. Investing in them is risky, because they might leave as soon as they get a better offer and you lose everything.

As for employers, they expect employees to kill themselves at their job, even if they have no incentives to do so at all. Employees usually don't give a shit about the company, its objectives, or the dreams of the CEO. Why would they? They don't get a cut, and they can go work elsewhere if the company fails.

One thing is sure, I wouldn't pay 20$ an hour for a beginner. It's just not economically viable. His output at the end of the mouth isn't worth his cost, so I would be losing money, and when he's done learning the job he will quit and get hired in a bigger company to get an instant promotion. That's how it works.

So, as a business man, would you hire an entitled, non loyal American who cost 20$ an hour, or a very willing, hard working Vietnamese for 3$ an hour? At this point it's no longer about ethics, it's about economics.

How about hiring older workers? They tend to be very loyal and very diligent. I agree with you about the young kids. They have an entitlement mentality, expect high pay, want to be the boss right away, and will jump ship in a New York minute.

Post: #123

(06-12-2015 08:40 AM)BlueOcean Wrote:  It'd be nice if we, as citizens, could somehow impeach most of our politicians.

If you think a central state with a powerful government with all sorts of responsibilities is the way to go to organize a society then you shouldn't be that surprised when the whole institution gets hijacked by the wrong people sooner or later. Liberals, Lefties, huge corporations, you name it.

On top of that states have the natural tendency to implode under their own weight sooner or later. It's wishful thinking the situation will get any better when just the right politicians will come to power.

Post: #124

Globalization does not only benefit the Indians that move to America. It also benefits the sweatshop workers that make more money working for Nike than they otherwise would have. That's what I mean by a net benefit on an international scale.

Post: #125

(06-12-2015 09:30 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Globalization does not only benefit the Indians that move to America. It also benefits the sweatshop workers that make more money working for Nike than they otherwise would have. That's what I mean by a net benefit on an international scale.

Like I explained to you above, this is true in the short term.

But eventually the middle class in the west is crushed. And the elites have even more money and power. And they can start driving wages down further, and this time there is now way to escape it because the entire world is involved and there is no where to go.

The answer is to spread the strong middle class to other countries. Not to destroy the middle class and make everyone equally miserable and weak and then helpless to be enslaved further.

Globalization is only a temporary fix for the immigrants.