Post: #51

(06-12-2015 02:07 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  I think I'd rather burn in hell than get married out of a sense of player guilt.

It's clear to me women simply don't care about you the way you care about them. Your wife only married you because you demonstrated value and resources, even the legit nice Christian girls require gaming to some degree.

And the church's insistence that you don't chase money is directly opposed to being able to attract a quality virgin. The more 'worldly' successful you are, the better your chances of attracting a quality wife.

I was a good catholic boy for 18 years but once I hit the real world and saw the nature of women (plus my natural ambition for success), I find Catholicism's insistence that every goddamn thing is a sin pretty exhausting.

It was that 'I need to be meek and selfless!' attitude that allowed girls to just fuck me over relentlessly

I grew up protestant, but basically the same story here.

It's funny, though, how many Christians do you see "giving it all up?"

A rare few and they're all pretty much missionaries.

Post: #52

My Catholic upbringing really kind of messed me up with girls when I was younger. I took that stuff very seriously, and it caused me all kinds of angst and guilt being young and horny. Between that, and my parents screwing me up I hardly had a chance, despite being a good-looking guy at the time.

Post: #53

(06-12-2015 03:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-08-2015 01:26 AM)Enigma Wrote:  And since it doesn't explicitly forbid premarital sex in the Bible, we can obviously extrapolate that into justification for sleeping with hundreds of sluts throughout our lifetimes.

Good to know that I can still meet women on Tinder for casual sex and remain a good Christian man.

Instead of making dumb strawman arguments, why don't you read the thread instead of trying to score cool points on the forum.

Quoted right from this page:

Quote:Nowhere have I said that it's okay to chase sluts each day. Indulgences in general are sinful - spending too much time on money is greed. Spending too much time on food is gluttony. Spending too much time on destroying your enemies is wrath. Spending too much time on what your neighbors have over you is coveting. Spending too much time on anything is idolatry.

Oh, Samseau, is that the kind of language a good Christian man should be using to spread the word of God?

The only thing dumb here is you trying to deny what this thread is about.

You told your priest that there were "450 men [on a game forum] waiting on his answer". What are we waiting on then, if not justification for the player lifestyle followed by the members here?

Do you think there are 450 of us lying in bed with our long-term girlfriend, just waiting on you to give the green light?

I don't have any problem with a man finding religion, but then go find yourself a traditional wife and raise a family instead of trying to find loopholes that allow you to enjoy a life of debauchery while still lording yourself over others.

Post: #54

(06-14-2015 08:02 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 03:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-08-2015 01:26 AM)Enigma Wrote:  And since it doesn't explicitly forbid premarital sex in the Bible, we can obviously extrapolate that into justification for sleeping with hundreds of sluts throughout our lifetimes.

Good to know that I can still meet women on Tinder for casual sex and remain a good Christian man.

Instead of making dumb strawman arguments, why don't you read the thread instead of trying to score cool points on the forum.

Quoted right from this page:

Quote:Nowhere have I said that it's okay to chase sluts each day. Indulgences in general are sinful - spending too much time on money is greed. Spending too much time on food is gluttony. Spending too much time on destroying your enemies is wrath. Spending too much time on what your neighbors have over you is coveting. Spending too much time on anything is idolatry.

Oh, Samseau, is that the kind of language a good Christian man should be using to spread the word of God?

The only thing dumb here is you trying to deny what this thread is about.

You told your priest that there were "450 men [on a game forum] waiting on his answer". What are we waiting on then, if not justification for the player lifestyle followed by the members here?

Do you think there are 450 of us lying in bed with our long-term girlfriend, just waiting on you to give the green light?

I don't have any problem with a man finding religion, but then go find yourself a traditional wife and raise a family instead of trying to find loopholes that allow you to enjoy a life of debauchery while still lording yourself over others.

You continue to argue in bad faith. I have no idea why you're trying to pick a fight. Regardless:

- Yes, I shouldn't have used the word "dumb" it's too hostile of a tone. But it was obvious to me you came in here in complete bad faith, having read none of this thread but instead holding on tight to your deep seated prejudices about Christianity handed down to you by the telephone game of history.

- No where in here am I justifying the player lifestyle.

- I'm not lording myself over anyone.

Post: #55

Okay, happy Sunday everyone. Just learned some very interesting things from my priest today.

- I showed him this thread. He completely agreed with the thread title. He agrees there is a lot more nuance that what is commonly taught.

- He looked into the Canon law. Apparently I have found a deep ambiguity that is not easily resolved. He's forwarded the question to an Orthodox Canon Church lawyer asking what exactly the rules are for concubines for laymen. This is pretty exciting guys.

- He does know for sure that once a man is married then he is to be only with that woman sexually. Even if he had female slaves or concubines, he could still retain ownership over the slaves but was not to engage in sex with them. Also the concubines would lose out on inheritance if their man got a wife over them. The question is what are the rules for laymen with just concubines?

- To be eligible for priesthood, a man could marry but was expected to marry as a virgin to a virgin wife before ordination.

- I asked him if the word "whore" in the Bible meant the same thing as our modern "slut," as Scorpion suggested. He did not think so and to illustrate that men of that time knew the difference between a slut and a whore (money vs. no money) he told me about Saint Mary of Egypt, a woman who would have sex with men all the time for free. Most men thought she was a prostitute but she'd turn down the money. Keep in mind most of the men in those days were married, so for them it would have been a sin to bang the slut but for the single men the extent they were sinning was debatable. Meanwhile Mary realized she was deeply deprived before having her conversion experience. Again we'll find out more on this soon, need to wait on the lawyer.

- Taking a woman's virginity without giving her marriage is sinful in most circumstances. If she's nuts or severely damaged or fucks other dudes then of course no marriage is owed to her.

- Canon law also had ways for people to divorce outside of adultery in other extreme cases, such as women who became mentally-ill. But other than these cases marriage is for life.

- Marriage to a virgin is indeed the ideal; marrying non-virgins is generally considered an act of generosity by the man and also done at the man's risk.

- He pointed out that when the Bible was written, finding a virgin woman was not a terribly difficult thing to do unlike today's age where virgins are like a needle in a haystack. He joked with me that you'd have to go as young as 12 to find a virgin today. So when Paul said to go marry instead of burn, that's because the context of getting a virgin wife was mostly a matter of choice for the men instead of having fun with whores.

- The extent sex outside of marriage with non-virgins is sinful has everything to do with intentions; if a man only has sex for it's own sake with a woman (pump and dump) then it's sinful. If he has sex because he is open to a relationship in the future should she be a good match then it's not sinful for the man; the woman is already a sinner in virtue of having wasted her virginity. From my player knowledge I know the woman is damaging herself but not even close for the man.

- Too much sex can be sinful even if married; a man is not supposed to have sex on fasting days (fasting = no pleasures of the flesh = devoting oneself to prayer).

- Here is a site with full translated Orthodox Canon law: http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/index.html. Amazing resource for those who are interested.

Post: #56

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - He does know for sure that once a man is married then he is to be only with that woman sexually. Even if he had female slaves or concubines, he could still retain ownership over the slaves but was not to engage in sex with them. Also the concubines would lose out on inheritance if their man got a wife over them. The question is what are the rules for laymen with just concubines?

Wrong. There is *no* prohibition in the Bible against having multiple wives, except for kings in the OT (no "multiplying wives") and elders/deacons in the NT.

Quote: Deu 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold

Commandment to marry sister in law under specific circumstances, irrespective of living brother's marital status:

Quote: Deu 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

The prohibition in the NT for elders/deacons speaks more towards divorced/re-married (adulterers) than to men with multiple wives. (A person is NEVER legitimately divorced in God's eyes).

Please explain this verse:

Quote: Ex. 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

It says if he takes another wife he has to keep fucking the first one too.

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - Taking a woman's virginity without giving her marriage is sinful in most circumstances.

Cite some scripture to back up this statement please.

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - He pointed out that when the Bible was written, finding a virgin woman was not a terribly difficult thing to do unlike today's age where virgins are like a needle in a haystack. He joked with me that you'd have to go as young as 12 to find a virgin today.

Wrong. You are just using this as an excuse to justify whoring around. I haven't had any trouble finding virgin wives.

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - Too much sex can be sinful even if married; a man is not supposed to have sex on fasting days (fasting = no pleasures of the flesh = devoting oneself to prayer).

Cite some scripture to back up this statement please.

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - Marriage to a virgin is indeed the ideal; marrying non-virgins is generally considered an act of generosity by the man and also done at the man's risk.

Cite some scripture to back up this statement please.
The commandment to marry virgins applied only to Levite high priests, not just a priest, and no one else.

Quote: Lev 21:13 And he shall take a wife in her virginity.
Lev 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.

For anyone else, it is not a sin to marry a non-virgin should they choose. It *is* adultery for a man to marry a woman that has been divorced.

Quote: Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Men can re-marry without being adulterers if their wife divorces them, women cannot.
Who gives a crap about "canon law"? I'm only interested in what the Bible actually says, not what some priest/pastor/whoever thinks.

Post: #57

As much as I would like to endorse Samseau's view here, I simply don't see it fitting. The fact that the Bible does not explicitly mention sex with non-whores as a sin doesn't mean that it is somehow in its spirit. It would be far healthier to accept that in today's messed up world you as a human are sometimes not able to live up to the standard (despite your standard being lower than a woman's), and repent for it. Forgiveness is the heart of Christianity and I'm sure God understands what difficulties you are going through.

To just throw that out and engage on a convoluted journey of convincing yourself that you are not sinning doesn't seem good to me, either in the moral sense or in the personal development sense. But I'm not a Christian, so what do I know.

This thread reminds me of the "leave you better than you found her" argument that players usually make, which Heartiste thoroughly demolished here.

Post: #58

(06-14-2015 07:05 PM)Samseau Wrote:  You continue to argue in bad faith. I have no idea why you're trying to pick a fight. Regardless:

- Yes, I shouldn't have used the word "dumb" it's too hostile of a tone. But it was obvious to me you came in here in complete bad faith, having read none of this thread but instead holding on tight to your deep seated prejudices about Christianity handed down to you by the telephone game of history.

- No where in here am I justifying the player lifestyle.

- I'm not lording myself over anyone.

So, by disagreeing with your opinion, I'm "pick[ing] a fight" and displaying "deep seated prejudices".

Am I a misogynist too?

I haven't condemned Christianity in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I specifically said I don't have any problem with it. I simply disagree with your personal interpretation of it. This is a forum for discussion and you posted up your thoughts for dissection.

Post: #59

(06-15-2015 06:25 AM)billbudsocket Wrote:  

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - He does know for sure that once a man is married then he is to be only with that woman sexually. Even if he had female slaves or concubines, he could still retain ownership over the slaves but was not to engage in sex with them. Also the concubines would lose out on inheritance if their man got a wife over them. The question is what are the rules for laymen with just concubines?

Wrong. There is *no* prohibition in the Bible against having multiple wives, except for kings in the OT (no "multiplying wives") and elders/deacons in the NT.

Quote: Deu 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold

What makes you think this commandment is just for Kings? Deuteronomy were the words spoken by Moses to the Jews. These commands are for all men: do not multiply wives.

Quote:Commandment to marry sister in law under specific circumstances, irrespective of living brother's marital status:

Quote: Deu 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

The prohibition in the NT for elders/deacons speaks more towards divorced/re-married (adulterers) than to men with multiple wives. (A person is NEVER legitimately divorced in God's eyes).

Agreed.

Quote:Please explain this verse:

Quote: Ex. 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

It says if he takes another wife he has to keep fucking the first one too.

The section you quoted is from Exodus concerning the rules for servants. Modern translations call these slaves, so this unclear here if servants were equivalent to our modern slaves. The YLT translation:

Quote:7 `And when a man selleth his daughter for a handmaid, she doth not go out according to the going out of the men-servants;
8 if evil in the eyes of her lord, so that he hath not betrothed her, then he hath let her be ransomed; to a strange people he hath not power to sell her, in his dealing treacherously with her.
9 `And if to his son he betroth her, according to the right of daughters he doth to her.
10 `If another [woman] he take for him, her food, her covering, and her habitation, he doth not withdraw;
11 and if these three he do not to her, then she hath gone out for nought, without money.

Line 7 says when a woman is sold as a servant she is not allowed to go free as male servants do. On line 1 of this chapter it says male servants go free after 7 years.
Line 8 says if a female servant is evil in her master's eyes from not obeying him (in matters of what I do not know) and he does not betrothe her as a result, then he may sell her to someone else but not to foreigners because he has been bad to her. Why the Bible assumes the master has been bad if the female slave acts badly I do not know.
Note: I assume marrying a servant girl is also what the Bible refers to as Concubines.
Line 9 is still in context to the above lines and says if the Master assigns a female servant to be a wife for his son then daughters borne out of such an arrangement are to be legitimate as full daughters.
Line 10 now has it's place in light of the above lines: should the son decide to choose another wife besides the one his father assigned to him he may marry but he is still obligated to provide for his existing wife (presumably including sex) and children.
Line 11 explains that if a man fails to provide for his servant wife then the servant wife becomes free and may leave without any consequence or fine.

Quote:

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - Taking a woman's virginity without giving her marriage is sinful in most circumstances.

Cite some scripture to back up this statement please.

Deut 22:28-29 (YLT):

Quote:28 `When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,
29 then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.

By OT law we know if a man seduces and takes woman's virginity then he is obligated to marry her. Hence my original statement.

Quote:

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - He pointed out that when the Bible was written, finding a virgin woman was not a terribly difficult thing to do unlike today's age where virgins are like a needle in a haystack. He joked with me that you'd have to go as young as 12 to find a virgin today.

Wrong. You are just using this as an excuse to justify whoring around. I haven't had any trouble finding virgin wives.

First: I don't use whores.

Second: prove it. Go make a thread in the Game forum then, telling men where they can find virgin wives if you want anyone here to take you seriously.

Quote:

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - Too much sex can be sinful even if married; a man is not supposed to have sex on fasting days (fasting = no pleasures of the flesh = devoting oneself to prayer).

Cite some scripture to back up this statement please.

1 Corinthians 7:5 (YLT): "Defraud not one another, except by consent for a time, that ye may be free for fasting and prayer, and again may come together, that the Adversary may not tempt you because of your incontinence;"

Thus according to St. Paul when a man fasts it is implied he is separated from his wife (i.e. no sex).

Quote:

(06-14-2015 07:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  - Marriage to a virgin is indeed the ideal; marrying non-virgins is generally considered an act of generosity by the man and also done at the man's risk.

Cite some scripture to back up this statement please.
The commandment to marry virgins applied only to Levite high priests, not just a priest, and no one else.

No, Leviticus is addressed to all men of Israel and we know this from the very first lines of the book (YLT):

"1 And Jehovah calleth unto Moses, and speaketh unto him out of the tent of meeting, saying,
2 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, and thou hast said unto them, Any man of you when he doth bring near an offering to Jehovah, out of the cattle -- out of the herd, or out of the flock -- ye do bring near your offering."

Quote:

Quote: Lev 21:13 And he shall take a wife in her virginity.
Lev 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.

For anyone else, it is not a sin to marry a non-virgin should they choose.

Nope, it's a sin for everyone who accepts the word of God. Additionally, it is sinful to marry a slut because it goes against "pearls before swine," but also remember that Jesus instructs us to know God wants mercy over judgement. Therefore if you find a woman who isn't a virgin but would still make excellent wife material a man may marry her as an act of mercy. After all this world is fucked and plenty of good women are deceived into casual sex.

In general, however, I would strongly advise most men not to marry non-virgins because what are the odds she's a good one? There is a method to deal with these types of women though and separate the good from the bad, but it's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss it here.

Quote:

Quote: Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Men can re-marry without being adulterers if their wife divorces them, women cannot.
Who gives a crap about "canon law"? I'm only interested in what the Bible actually says, not what some priest/pastor/whoever thinks.

The reason I'm talking about canon law isn't because I believe it has authority over the Bible, but because men here were interested in understanding how the word "whore" was understood by Ancient Christians of the past. And I still haven't figured it out yet as I am waiting on more info from my Church. However these Christians did believe a man could remarry if the wife was mentally-ill, a criminal, and other rare exceptions. Take that for what you will.

Post: #60

(06-15-2015 01:18 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  As much as I would like to endorse Samseau's view here, I simply don't see it fitting. The fact that the Bible does not explicitly mention sex with non-whores as a sin doesn't mean that it is somehow in its spirit. It would be far healthier to accept that in today's messed up world you as a human are sometimes not able to live up to the standard (despite your standard being lower than a woman's), and repent for it. Forgiveness is the heart of Christianity and I'm sure God understands what difficulties you are going through.

This may be true but my point is there isn't a whole lot of scripture to support such a view. There are plenty of things that do, however, contradict this view:

- God loves manly men, effeminate men go to hell (Manly men fuck women fyi)
- "Be fruitful and multiply"
- The parable of the servants and the talents

In all cases why would a manly man not attempt to salvage the situation of a world with an extremely limited supply of virgins by not trying to take a modestly damaged slut and reform her into a wife? The method to do this isn't by marrying her; it's beyond the scope of this post to talk about it.

Quote:To just throw that out and engage on a convoluted journey of convincing yourself that you are not sinning doesn't seem good to me, either in the moral sense or in the personal development sense. But I'm not a Christian, so what do I know.

Who's convincing themselves here? I haven't talked about what I consider the Bible to mean on sexual sin (other than a few statements here and there), nor I have told people what I consider to be a complete list of Christian sexual ethics.

Quote:This thread reminds me of the "leave you better than you found her" argument that players usually make, which Heartiste thoroughly demolished here.

If you think this thread is even remotely comparable to that then you aren't reading me carefully, or my writing is just too confusing for most men. You're like the 10th guy in this thread to hit me up with the "justifying the player lifestyle" objection.

Not sure how I can make myself more clear but when I write up a complete list of what I understand Christian sexual ethics in a new thread, hopefully a lot of the confusion will be resolved.

Right now, this thread is about interpretation and translation, both extremely important before creating a summary of the reading. This thread isn't about justifying shit.

I concluded the OP with:

Quote:So, unless I have made an error in the work above, I hereby state all Christian men to be the masculine man they were always meant to be, and fulfill their sexual desires without any restrictions other than the following:

1. Using whores (this includes porn!)
2. Rape
3. Incest
4. Adultery (cheating on one's spouse)
5. Homosexuality
6. Beastiality

Of course, there are many other sins a good Christian man should avoid when dealing with the opposite sex that would apply to interactions with all people, such as lying, but it's beyond the scope of this post to cover everything. More will be explained in the future. For now, as it is written, "the truth will set you free, for the truth is the light of God."

What else can I say? Nuance is hard.

Post: #61

Prepare for some incoming walls of text.

I just used the Internet Archive to track down some old blog posts I wrote (circa 2012) on this exact topic. I may edit and re-post them on Thumotic, but for now I'll just post the originals to this thread:

*Rationalizing Fornication*

Pimpin’ ain’t easy.

Young Christian men have it especially hard. Not only must you navigate earthly bitch shields, you have to fight through the last minute resistance of God Himself. You must pass the shit tests of his beloved Son. You must invite the Holy Spirit upstairs to your apartment, so that it may sample some of your finest tap water, but only for a minute because you have to wake up early tomorrow.

I am presently withholding judgement on the question of whether or not the bible actually condemns pre-marital sex. Depending on how you interpret various scriptures, and which Greek-English dictionary you happen to have lying around, the bible may or may not give contemporary Christian men some wiggle room that allows some compromise between God and Game.

In this post, I offer my best attempts to rationalize the peaceful coexistence of the two. If I’m right: Christian men, go forth and seduce. If I’m wrong, I hope learned men such as Dalrock, Bruce Charlton, Koanic Soul, Vox Day, Bonald, The Gentleman Poet, Patriactionary, Ulysses and ballista will set us straight. Without further ado:

Rationalization #1

Banging a non-virgin woman with a condom doesn’t violate the biblical injunction against adultery, because you’re not actually going to adulterate any of her children. Non-procreative sex upholds the spirit, if not the letter, of the biblical injunction against adultery.

Rationalization #2

You are free to assume that any woman you bang is a virgin. If you make the (shocking!) post-coital discovery that she is not, let Deuteronomy 22 be your guide and divorce he:

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16 And the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

(Note that Jesus would likely prefer that you delete her number, rather than cast the first stone.)

Rationalization #3

In the time of Christ, marriageable women abounded. Those men who sought, found them. The world we live in is different, and requires different coping strategies. Consider Matthew 19:

“And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

Can you bear to live as a eunuch? I can’t. So, this word is not for me. In a simpler time, I would be obligated to find a virgin bride and marry her. But these days, virgin brides don’t exactly grow on trees . So what’s a modern Christian man to do? I suggest: Make an honest and dedicated effort to finding and marrying one of the few remaining decent Christian women. But while that search is ongoing… a man has needs.

Rationalization #4

Ephesians 5:5 warns against whoremongering. But perhaps there is some acceptable level of whoring that qualifies a man as a dabbler, rather than a monger-er of whores. Since most contemporary American women are best viewed as whores with poor negotiating skills, we have a free pass to occasionally taste their wares, so long as we don’t let our pursuit of them cross the line from idle hobby to all-consuming obsession.

Rationalization #5

Christian sexual morality only applies to Christian women. Outsiders are fair game. I believe the Koran states this for Muslim men. (Either that, or my Muslim friends are also expert rationalizers.) Does the bible contain any indication that its decrees on sexual morality are void when it concerns non-Christian women? The Add Comment button is below and to your left.

And finally, the single best rationalization for the modern Christian man who would like to spend his salad years playing the field before he settles down, is this:

Every man must learn how to play the Two Games. This requires exposing himself to the temptations of the flesh. If a Christian man eventually marries a non-adulteress and spends the rest of his life doing his duty as a husband, father, provider, and follower of Christ, perhaps he will be forgiven some youthful indiscretions – especially if those indiscretions were a critical foundation to his education as a man, and as a Christian.

Hyperlinks and an interesting comment thread can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/2012102507215...rnication/

Post: #62

***What Does The Bible Actually Say About Premarital Sex?***

The Manosphere appears to have acquired a generous sprinkling of Christian flavouring over the past couple of months. Exciting times. But amidst all the discussion of the compatibility of Game and God, one question remains unanswered: What sort of sexual morality does Christianity actually demand of its followers?

More to the point, is banging sluts on the reg compatible with Christian morality?

I am tempted to say ‘yes’ and call it a day. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 suggests to me that we are free to bang non-virgins at will. Also, to stone them:

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16 And the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him

(But also remember that Jesus said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Otherwise, deleteth her number and act unfazed when you see her in the same bar next month.”)

So God seems OK with banging and discarding non-virgins. Then again, the bible repeatedly admonishes fornication. But what is fornication?

The question of whether casual sex is acceptable hinges on our definition of this word, which is a translation of the Greek porneia. The most common English translation of porneia that I’ve found is the disappointingly vague “sexual immorality.” So let’s see if we can infer the meaning from scriptural context.

I Corinthians 6:18 implies that all extra-marital sex is classified as Fornication:

“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife and every woman have her own husband”.

Hebrews 13:4 is pretty clear on whoremongering:

“Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.”

And what is the modern American carousel rider, if not a whore with poor bargaining skills? But surely there is some difference between a whore-monger, i.e. a man who devotes a gluttonous fraction of his thoughts and energies to whores, and a mere whore-dabbler. Christians, help me out in the comments.

*

In any case, the position of the modern Church is clear: Casual sex is against God’s will. But the rot of Churchian infiltration runs deep. True Christians must assume that any scripture which can conceivably be misinterpreted to serve the purposes of the feminists, will be. Biblical double standards, where they serve the interests of men, will be papered over. The most egregious example of this tendency is that the bible clearly permits polygyny. Cases in point: Would Jesus have told us the parable of the ten virgins, without mentioning that the fundamental premise of the story is that the man in the story was a sinner?

Churchianity would have us believe that marriage is simply whatever the Churchians tell us it is – in most cases, a ridiculously unfair and unbiblical legal contract between one man and one woman. But what does scripture say?

The most commonly cited passage in support of monogamous marriage is I Corinthians 6:18. “Let every woman have her own husband.” Just like my brother and I each had our own bedroom, every blogger has his own URL, let every woman has her own hunk of man meat. The modern English translation implies no sharesies. I wonder though, is this the correct translation? My Greek is a little rusty.

Because the rest of the bible, outside of that verse, seems to imply that polygamous sharesies are most certainly permitted.

The Old Testament obviously permitted polygamy, as many of the old patriarchs had multiple wives. The Pentateuch also contains many guidelines with regard to the juggling of multiple wives. For example, Exodus 21-10 explicitly demands that when we acquire additional wives, we do not diminish the food, clothing and marital rights of the first.

The New Testament retcons the ability of men to divorce their wives at will. But does it forbid polygamy? No. Timothy 3:2 supplies the exception that proves the rule:

“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.”

Church leaders must have but one wife. But the rest of us? Line ‘em up, Paul implies.

And what is marriage? Does it require a license, a certificate from your local state government, or even the witness of a pastor? I Corinthians 7 clearly divides women into two categories: Virgins, and Married. This implies that the act of sexual intercourse is sufficient for marriage. Luke 16:18, contra Deuteronomy, states that marrying/fucking an already married/fucked woman is adultery. So Christian men are left with one option: Chase virgins. Once you hit it, add her to your wife collection. End of story. At least, until she bangs some other dude. See Matthew 5:32:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”

So – Christian Men – did you come here looking for scriptural permission to bang as many sluts as you cared to? Were you crossing your fingers, hoping to learn that the Christian imperative to male chastity was no more than yet another anti-male invention of feminist-infiltrated Churchianity? Yeah, me too. But while the polygamous acquisition of multiple virgin wives is a slam dunk, the case for hitting and quitting is more ambiguous.

Hyperlinks and an interesting comment thread can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/2012102507385...rital-sex/

Post: #63

*** The Christian Man's Trilemma ***

What percentage of young men today can reasonably expect to find and marry a wife who fits these criteria? Five percent? One percent? Who knows. But it’s a very small number.

Outside of this select few, the archetypal American woman is still looking for marriage. Just not until her age, BMI and partner count are all cruising up into the mid-thirties and beyond.

The most obvious response for men to this state of affairs is simple: We can eschew marriage. We can live it up in our twenties, wallowing in non-committal debauchery. Then we can live it up in our thirties with the next generation of young girls, as they come fresh off the assembly line of feminist indoctrination and barbaric pop culture. We can rinse and repeat for as many decades as we like. We can get the snip.

(Or, if we don’t feel like doing the heavy lifting of becoming a better man and learning game, we can say fuck it all and immerse ourselves in the imaginary paradise of video games and high-def porn. But if that’s your choice, this is not the blog for you.)

But this option of raw, unfiltered, hedonistic fornication is not available to Christian men. Eternal damnation and all that. So, the contemporary Christian is limited to three options:

Option #1: Celibacy

God approves of the celibate man:

Corinthians 7:7-9

“For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.”

Corinthians 7:32-40

“But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.”

But He allows that not all men can bear celibacy:

Matthew 19:12

“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

So, for those pious men who can bear celibacy: Go ahead and bear it. Castrate yourself if necessary. I suppose chopping off your dick will suck, but what’s a dick when eternal life is at stake? Take it away Paul:

1 Corinthians 7:25-40

“25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;

31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.”

Option #2: Adultery

Marriage is the prescribed alternative for the non-eunuch. But what is marriage?

As we covered in Monday’s post, What Does The Bible Actually Say About Pre-Marital Sex, marriage in the biblical context has nothing to do with ceremonies and certificates. In Corinthians 24, Paul writes:

“There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.“

The dichotomy clearly implies that every non-virgin is a wife. So we infer: Marriage is fucking, pure and simple. You bang a virgin, she is your wife.

But what if you marry a non-virgin?

Well, here’s the thing. Under the eyes of God, you can’t marry a non-virgin. At least not while her husband lives. You can go to a so-called Church and have a fun little flower party, and you can apply for a laminated marriage certificate from your state government, but from a biblical standpoint, you are committing adultery and living in perpetual sin with your ‘wife.’

Think about that, the next time you hear a Churchian Social Conservative urging you to Man Up And Marry Those Sluts. Even if my exercises in Rationalizing Fornication don’t impress you, there’s at least one thing we can say for sure: The Bible takes adultery much more seriously than pre-marital sex. Yet, young Christian men are constantly berated for the latter, and positively encouraged to engage in the former. They are told to eschew sex with young, hot girls, and find a wife among the aging, bitter, carousel-dizzied near-spinsters who have finally decided that it’s marryin’ time.

Never mind that doing so is about as unambiguously sinful as anything in the bible:

Luke 16:18

“He that marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.”

Matthew 19:19

“Whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

Mark 10:10

“And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

You know what, I’m just going to come out and say it. The modern Church has been so perverted by progressivism, True Christians are better off ignoring it completely. True Christians are better off leaving their churches en masse, and rebuilding them from the ground up. The Christian Church has fallen to Conquest’s Second Law. Christian readers, tell me why I’m wrong.

But I digress. We’re talking about the modern Christian man’s optimal approach to women, dating and marriage. Having ruled out Celibacy and Adultery, we’re left with…

Option #3: Something else

Modern young Christians need a new framework of sexual morality that offers them an alternative to celibacy while minimizing the damage they do to their souls. Tomorrow’s post will offer one.

Hyperlinks and an interesting comment thread can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/2013012809075...s-trilemma

Post: #64

*** The Christian Player’s Code ***

Today we’re going to wrap it all up with the Christian Player’s Code. But first, a word on the purpose of all this.

All men have a natural tendency to retreat from challenge and adversity. Cowardice is the natural human condition, and we all must fight against it on a daily basis. The last thing any of us wants to do though, is admit this to ourselves. We seek out excuses. We construct intricate webs of rationalizations, to justify whatever course of action we subconsciously deem to be the least threatening to our egos.

Case in point: PUA Hate is an unintentionally hilarious forum for men who are afraid to attempt to improve their dealings with women, and so spend hundreds of hours reassuring each other that Game isn’t real. There also exist a variety of virgin-authored “men’s rights activist” blogs whose sole purpose seems to be constructing an arbitrary framework of beliefs which portray their cowardice as nobility. But we have better things to do today than link to any of them.

The non-Christian anti-game world is small, however, and destined to remain so. Secular cowards must undergo a complicated series of mental gymnastics to justify their inaction. The average man can clearly see their self-delusion for what it is.

The modern Christian man, however, is in a dangerous position. The combination of a real (though mild and vague) scriptural basis for the sinful nature of unbridled whoremongering, and the zeal with which feminist-infiltrated Churchian institutions will grab any stick that they can use to beat the men in their congregations, creates a noble-feeling escape hatch for cowardly Christian men. It’s all too easy to sit at home, self-righteously pouting throughout your twenties, and then settle down with a “born-again virgin” when your pastor starts giving you the old Man Up And Marry Those Sluts stink-eye when you start getting long in tooth.

According to such men, having sex with women who are (basically, and from a biblical standpoint) whores is simply the worst thing you can do, while marrying a sloot is doing God’s work. Well, let’s see. Total mentions of whoremongering in the bible: Less than five. Total mentions of adultery: Roughly one billion.

Sorry, mincing Christian friends. Your Churchian logic might work with your ego, but it holds no water here. You want the moral high ground because you dress your submission to the feminist cause in Christianity? Remember:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

The reality is that the modern Christian young man must choose between the Trilemma of celibacy, adultery, or finding some reconciliation of the Christian and Seduction lifestyles.

For those who seek the third way, here are the three rules to follow if you want to minimize the damage you do to your soul:

1) There are good girls out there. When you meet them, tread carefully.

The majority of women you encounter will be battle-hardened veterans of the sexual marketplace. If they don’t know how to protect their own hearts by now, that’s not your problem.

But there are still some girls who, by virtue of youth, good parenting and a sheltered upbringing, retain some of their naivete. Perhaps it’s inevitable that such girls’ eyes are eventually opened to the dark truth about humanity and the cynical age we live in, but at least you don’t have to be the one to do the opening.

From a Christian perspective, this is more than just good karma. Taking a ride on the village VirtuCar is mere whoremongering. A sin, but no great one. Pumping and dumping a virgin is, technically marriage and divorce. Much more serious shit.

2) Stay of your neighbour’s lawn

Being the other man is fun. On a practical level, a girl whose “provider box” is already occupied, will give you zero static about your desire to keep things explicitly casual.

You can also make the argument that a girl who is going to cheat, is going to cheat. Passing up on that free pussy is like walking past a dropped wallet – the next guy is just going to pick it up and keep the cash anyways. I think this argument is usually true.

But still, that’s some negativity you don’t need to bring into your life. There are plenty of willing slutty single girls out there, and they don’t come with jealous boyfriends who correctly guessed her phone password and now want to put an icepick through your skull.

3) You shall make your mission, and not women, your priority.

Here, we turn to a different source of scripture: The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon.

“III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.”

This is not just good inner game advice. It is good life advice. If your number one priority in life is the next notch, that’s a problem no matter what you think about the virgin birth.

As a Christian man, you already know what your mission in life is. You don’t care much about racking up fresh conquests at two AM in nightclubs. But, if in the course of your life, you capitalize on the opportunities that, in our promiscuous age, will often fall right into your lap, it’s not the end of the world. As commenter Koanic put it, “Fornication is not for men the big sin Churchians make it out to be. It’s still a sin, just like gossip.”

So keep your eyes on the prize, Christian men, and let the small stuff slide.

* * *

I will end this post with one major and obvious caveat: Fornication and whoremongering are sins. If you are a Christian, and you aspire to perfection, you can and should avoid them.

But first ask yourself: Are you using the the bible’s mild prohibition of pre-marital sex to justify greater sin, such as a cowardly and craven life that brings no glory to either yourself or God? If so, it’s time to put away your faux-piety and start playing the Two Games.


Hyperlinks and an interesting comment thread can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/2012092403511...ayers-code

Post: #65

Lastly, here's "Two Games:"

The modern man has two games to play.

We’re all familiar with The First Game. The rules are: Have meaningless sex with slutty girls, then go brag about it on the internet. We’re no strangers to the First Game, here at Thumotic.

The Second Game is much less talked-about, but the challenge is greater, the strategy and tactics are more complex, and the stakes are infinitely higher. The rules of The Second Game are: Find a girl with high-quality genes to mate with, and raise your children in a safe and stimulating environment, so that they can take a shot at conquering the world.

A lot of men claim to have no interest in playing The Second Game. Their reasons are varied:

“There are no good women left!”

“Divorce theft!”

“All the married men I know are sad sacks!”

“Why would I want kids brah? I get laid all the time!”

The Rationalization Hamster, aka Cricetidae Cricetinae Rationalus comes in both male and female variants. Yes, some men are genuinely content to lead a barren, childless existence, and there is nothing wrong with that. But many who believe this are lying to themselves. They are afraid, because even though some have mastered The First Game, The Second Game is an order of magnitude more difficult.

How difficult? Well, consider the following traits, which I consider to be the base requirements for a woman who I would eventually consider as a potential mother of my children:

Under 25 years old
Comparable IQ to myself
Physically healthy and beautiful
Christian
A virgin
The product of a stable and loving family
Sweet, kind, feminine and nurturing
Committed to devoting her 20s and 30s to bearing and raising children

What percentage of modern American women fit these criteria? Once upon a time, a healthy majority of men could marry a woman who fulfills all of the above. Today, we are hunting for a few grains of sand scattered within miles and miles of obese, slutty, gender-studies-brainwashed beach.

To make matters more difficult, our success in The First Game can potentially hurt us in the eyes of decent, marriageable women. Good girls don’t want a husband whose partner count is creeping up into the triple digits. In fact, whether or not a girl is open to dating a guy like me is a good litmus test for whether she’s worth commitment or not. When I’m thirty-five and searching for a young wife in the Church singles scene (whatever that looks like) this will be an obstacle that I’ll have to overcome.

But as a seasoned veteran of The First Game, I am in a much better position for success than a man who has bypassed it entirely.

The truth is, ex-cads are the only men with a boner’s chance at a Slutwalk rally of actually achieving a stable and healthy family life in their middle age. Women, even the marriageable ones, are attracted to dominant men who take what they want and bend the world to their will. Young Christian men: We pick-up artists are not monsters. We want families, one day, and not with the sorts of women we spend our evenings with now. We have caught the scent of your relatively unsullied women, and we are coming for them. Whether our conversions are genuine or not is irrelevant to you. Your Church will soon be invaded by an influx of thirty-something Lotharios. Either you will have the same social toolkit as us – acquired through fornication-free catch-and-release, if you take your faith seriously – or you will be outmatched.

good and evil

Not only will Churchians who eschew the First Game lack basic seduction skills, they will also only see the extremely limited and rosy view that such women choose to present to potential “serious” suitors. Much is said about how failure with women engenders bitterness among young beta men, but as Thursday wrote, success with women is more disillusioning than failure.

A man should never buy a used car, unless he knows enough about cars to judge its quality. Similarly, a man should never marry, unless he knows enough about women to confirm that his choice of a wife isn’t giving off a dozen subtle red flags. You can learn a lot about the world from books and blog posts, but some lessons need to be learned directly. You need to wade out into the swamps of the modern sexual marketplace, and get your hands dirty.

You need to go out and:

Listen to a married woman order her weak husband to pick up their two children from school, minutes after you’ve come inside her
See how easily girls forget about their boyfriends and make out with you, pass you their number, or go home with you, once they’re attracted
Have countless conversations with girls you are banging about the highly-sanitized version of their sexual history they release to men who give off any whiff of a provider vibe
Spend many hours in bars and clubs, watching the young women who you plan to turn into housewives, drinking themselves retarded and stumbling out at three AM with whoever’s game was tightest that night.

Christian men, maybe you don’t want to be a part of this world. Maybe you see nothing appealing in modern hook-up culture. But if you want to succeed, you need to learn to swim with the sharks. Does it corrode a man’s soul to expose himself to this sort of cynicism ? I argue that truth is never bad for the soul. No one is served by your willful ignorance of the dark corners of the human psyche, except for those who will exploit you for your ignorance.

A man who closes his eyes and plugs his ears to the reality around him, because he is too Good, too Righteous, or too Godly to bear it, is a coward. Christian men: Depending on how you translate the Greek Porneia, playing a spirited game of catch and release will allow you to keep your soul clean while glimpsing into the nature of the beast. There is no excuse for skipping the due diligence on the most important decision of your life. Do not presume that you can succeed in The Second Game, if you don’t properly understand The First.


http://web.archive.org/web/2014020320322.../two-games

Post: #66

Frost, I think I remember you making those posts on your old blog. I wasn't sure of what to make of them then but now I can see serious mistakes in your reasoning.

1. The most serious mistake is that you didn't understand fornication was a mistranslation. This was the game changer for me as well. Fornication only means prostitution. Pornia on the other hand is more open to all types of sexual perversion. Fornix = under the arch, a place where prostitutes hung out at night in Roman forums. Obviously you didn't know this back then but had you known it would have saved you a lot of trouble.

As a result is it not clear just how sinful pre-marital sex is, if it is at all. I would argue having sex with a non-virginal, unmarried woman with the intention of forming an LTR is not sinful at all.

2. Your understanding of adultery is weird. Adultery means to take another man's wife. If she's unmarried it's not adultery; however if you're married and you bang another woman behind your wife's back then the young girl is committing adultery and you're enabling her. I do not think getting your wife's permission absolves sin for adultery here. The idea is two are joined as one-flesh and not to be broken by anything. The question I have is about concubines before marriage which is what my priest is working on right now.

3. Your two games is more or less spot on.

Quote:Under 25 years old
Comparable IQ to myself
Physically healthy and beautiful
Christian
A virgin
The product of a stable and loving family
Sweet, kind, feminine and nurturing
Committed to devoting her 20s and 30s to bearing and raising children

I would argue, however, there is almost no chance a woman keeps her virginity through college. I would say it's best to look for women under 20, actually.

Post: #67

Quote:Under 25 years old
Comparable IQ to myself
Physically healthy and beautiful
Christian
A virgin
The product of a stable and loving family
Sweet, kind, feminine and nurturing
Committed to devoting her 20s and 30s to bearing and raising children

You have a better chance finding a jackalope in America. It's a struggle finding a girl with even two of those traits, let alone all of them.



On a more serious note, I had a 4 hour train ride today and reread most of the New Testament beginning with Acts. It's just not adding up for me. There are variations in translation and a few points to be made on how to best interpret sexual law (painstaking research I'm of course very grateful for, Samseau and others) but my gut feeling is that it's still sinful. My recent relationships only seem to vindicate this belief, as the more I grow in faith, the less fulfillment I find in casual sex and the more inclined I am to seek long-term commitment.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." - Galatians 5:16 (NIV)

The flesh and the Spirit are in constant conflict. Indulgence in one always comes at the expense of the other. While it's possible to retain the benefits of salvation through faith, good works, and the forgiveness of past sins, I believe it's difficult to justify a promiscuous lifestyle when Scripture is taken in full context. You'll notice that Paul speaks in deliberately vague terms as to which specific acts are sinful, as sin is understood to be any fleshly desire working against the Spirit (be it adultery, thievery, envy). His letters are intended to illustrate the conceptual definition of sin, rather than provide a thorough guideline and code of laws governing personal behavior.

Does this mean a Christian man is treading in hostile territory at RVF? Of course not. The manosphere, through the study of game and gender dynamics, helps condition men for healthy relationships and optimize his chances of finding and retaining a worthy long-term mate. We were created man and woman - masculine and feminine - for a reason, and any community that helps to reaffirm traditional beliefs in a contemporary cultural context also helps men to honor lifelong commitment in marriage as God intended.

Post: #68

(06-16-2015 06:55 PM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

Quote:Under 25 years old
Comparable IQ to myself
Physically healthy and beautiful
Christian
A virgin
The product of a stable and loving family
Sweet, kind, feminine and nurturing
Committed to devoting her 20s and 30s to bearing and raising children

You have a better chance finding a jackalope in America. It's a struggle finding a girl with even two of those traits, let alone all of them.



On a more serious note, I had a 4 hour train ride today and reread most of the New Testament beginning with Acts. It's just not adding up for me. There are variations in translation and a few points to be made on how to best interpret sexual law (painstaking research I'm of course very grateful for, Samseau and others) but my gut feeling is that it's still sinful. My recent relationships only seem to vindicate this belief, as the more I grow in faith, the less fulfillment I find in casual sex and the more inclined I am to seek long-term commitment.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." - Galatians 5:16 (NIV)

The flesh and the Spirit are in constant conflict. Indulgence in one always comes at the expense of the other. While it's possible to retain the benefits of salvation through faith, good works, and the forgiveness of past sins, I believe it's difficult to justify a promiscuous lifestyle when Scripture is taken in full context. You'll notice that Paul speaks in deliberately vague terms as to which specific acts are sinful, as sin is understood to be any fleshly desire working against the Spirit (be it adultery, thievery, envy). His letters are intended to illustrate the conceptual definition of sin, rather than provide a thorough guideline and code of laws governing personal behavior.

Does this mean a Christian man is treading in hostile territory at RVF? Of course not. The manosphere, through the study of game and gender dynamics, helps condition men for healthy relationships and optimize his chances of finding and retaining a worthy long-term mate. We were created man and woman - masculine and feminine - for a reason, and any community that helps to reaffirm traditional beliefs in a contemporary cultural context also helps men to honor lifelong commitment in marriage as God intended.

I do not think man was intended for a lifetime of promiscuity either. Even without God's command, we all know that without stable marriages families are not formed and society falls apart.

But this is not to say there is not a time and a place for male promiscuity, or that God did not make man to desire women, or that God did not intend for man to sort through women until he finds a suitable mate.

Regardless I the opposite of this view is that men must remain virgins until marriage, which superficially seems like what scripture supports but only in a world where women remain virgins until marriage as well.

Also, that Galatians quote never made much sense to me. If you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the law? I think the word "not" does not belong in that sentence.

Post: #69

I think it means that when you are guided by the Spirit, God's will flows through you without effort. There's no need to exert effort to follow a bunch of rules. It all happens naturally.

Post: #70

(06-16-2015 09:36 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:This thread reminds me of the "leave you better than you found her" argument that players usually make, which Heartiste thoroughly demolished here.

If you think this thread is even remotely comparable to that then you aren't reading me carefully, or my writing is just too confusing for most men. You're like the 10th guy in this thread to hit me up with the "justifying the player lifestyle" objection.
...
What else can I say? Nuance is hard.

Samseau, you are just being evasive here. I agree with your claim that "the Bible has never explicitly listed sex with sluts as a sin". There's no objection to it. That, however, doesn't mean that such a thing is in the spirit of the Bible or that one should engage in it. Religious or not religious, we all don't condone of many things and thus don't engage in them, despite them not being explicitly banned.

Is sex with sluts desirable, or is it not?

Post: #71

(06-17-2015 04:37 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Is sex with sluts desirable, or is it not?

If 9/10 women meet the definition of a slut, then there isn't much of a choice for men now is there?

Fact of the matter is: a man pursues the women he believes he could make a lasting life with, which means "hot women," and the fact most hot women aren't chaste means he's going to have sex with sluts no matter what.

The conclusion, therefore, is that sex with sluts is unavoidable, necessary, but must be tempered to avoid idolatry - but it is not desirable. Ideally, we'd all have a nice virgin wife but those days are gone.

Post: #72

So we've gone from "there's nothing prohibiting premarital sex" to "sex with sluts is unavoidable and necessary"?

This slope seems slippery.

Post: #73

(06-17-2015 06:41 AM)Sooth Wrote:  So we've gone from "there's nothing prohibiting premarital sex" to "sex with sluts is unavoidable and necessary"?

This slope seems slippery.

Don't know what you're talking about. Constantly rehashing the same points over and over is getting old, but the nuances are tough for people to grasp.

A man can have premarital sex but if it's a virgin he's morally obligated to marry her.

If she's not a virgin then he's at least obligated to give her a chance at a relationship with the possibility of marriage in the future.

That's the gist of it, no contradictions or slippery slopes at all.

Post: #74

Did the times of abundant nice virgin wives ever actually exist? Or more relevant here, were the days where early christianity spread, like that?


Look at Juvenal's Satires, for example - written around the turning of the 1st to 2nd century:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/juvena...res_06.htm

Quote:To set your neighbour's bed a-shaking, Postumus, and to flout the Genius of the sacred couch,6 is now an ancient and long-established practice. All other sins came later, the products of the age of Iron; but it was the silver age that saw the first adulterers. Nevertheless, in these days of ours, you are preparing for a covenant, a marriage-contract and a betrothal; you are by now getting your hair cut by a master barber; you have also perhaps given a pledge to her finger. What! Postumus, are you, you who once had your wits, taking to yourself a wife? Tell me what Tisiphone, what snakes are driving you mad? Can you submit to a she-tyrant when there is so much rope to be had, so many dizzy heights of windows standing open, and when the Aemilian bridge offers itself to hand? Or if none of all these modes of exit hit your fancy, how much better to take some boy-bedfellow, who would never wrangle with you o' nights, never ask presents of you when in bed, and never complain that you took your ease and were indifferent to his solicitations!

But Ursidius approves of the Julian Law.7 He purposes to bring up a dear little heir, though he will thereby have to do without the fine turtles, the bearded mullets, and all the legacy-hunting delicacies of the meat-market. What can you think impossible if Ursidius takes to himself a wife? if he, who has long been the most notorious of gallants, who has so often found safety in the corn-bin of the luckless Latinus,8 puts his head into the connubial noose? And what think you of his searching for a wife of the good old virtuous sort? O doctors, lance his over-blooded veins. A pretty fellow you! Why, if you have the good luck to find a modest spouse, you should prostrate yourself before the Tarpeian threshold, and sacrifice a heifer with gilded horns to Juno; so few are the wives worthy to handle the fillets of Ceres, or from whose kisses their own father would not shrink! Weave a garland for thy doorposts, and set up wreaths of ivy over thy lintel! But will Hiberina be satisfied with one man? Sooner compel her to be satisfied with one eye! You tell me of the high repute of some maiden, who lives on her paternal farm: well, let her live at Gabii, at Fidenae, as she lived in her own country, and I will believe in your paternal farm. But will anyone tell me that nothing ever took place on a mountain side or in a cave? Have Jupiter and Mars become so senile?

[...]

Give up all hope of peace so long as your mother-in-law is alive. It is she that teaches her daughter to revel in stripping and despoiling her husband; it is she that teaches her to reply to a seducer's love-letters in no plain and honest fashion; she eludes or bribes your guards; it is she that calls in Archigenes 29 when your daughter has nothing the matter with her, and tosses off the heavy blankets; the lover meanwhile is in secret and silent hiding, trembling with impatience and expectation. Do you really expect the mother to teach her daughter honest ways----ways different from her own? Nay, the vile old woman finds a profit in bringing up her daughter to be vile.

[...]

I hear all this time the advice of my old friends----keep your women at home, and put them under lock and key. Yes, but who will watch the warders? Wives are crafty and will begin with them. High or low their passions are all the same. She who wears out the black cobble-stones with her bare feet is no better than she who rides upon the necks of eight stalwart Syrians.

Or how the wife of a Briton chief said to the Empress who had joked to her about the libertine sex lives of their tribe:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Ro...o/77*.html

Quote:"We fulfil the demands of nature in a much better way than do you Roman women; for we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest."

While the men of the time may have held chastity of potential wives a good thing (while railing slaves and whores without remorse), it's uncertain how often they actually got that.

Now, this is not a description of jewish culture which may have been different, but most christians after the very early times weren't jews and didn't live among jews.



Anybody read this book? It seems interesting.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives...x-freedom/

Post: #75

Blobert makes a very good point. Promiscuity is nothing new, and in fact was standard behavior in most non-Jewish civilizations and cultures of the time. We tend to (mistakenly) view history as a gradual descent from purity, when Christianity was really the starting point of codified sexual morality in the West. The distinction between the pagan lifestyle of the Romans and religious lifestyle of the Jews/Christians is made clear in Thessalonians, among other places:

It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NIV)

The recurring theme is self-discipline, rather than abstinence. Atheism, hedonism, promiscuity, etc. all existed in past centuries, even at the height of Roman Catholicism. Man is impulsively drawn towards these indulgences, regardless of the prevailing cultural norms. Just as drunkenness is sinful while wine itself is not, a man must be capable of moderation and self-discipline.