Post: #101

^^I think no one has said that pharma companies are useless. It is true, they make many useful medicines and vaccines, which have helped and saved millions or billions of people and have raised our standard of living and our life expectancy.

However, this does not mean that they are without blame. I see roughly three big problems with current big pharma:

1) They want to push every medicine they develop to market, even when this medicine doesn’t work that well for its intended purpose, or when the possible side effects are much more severe than the problem that is being treated, as is the case of finasteride.

2) They only want patented medicines to be sold, even when perfectly adequate natural remedies exist. For instance it is often noted that testosterone is a far better treatment for depression than any anti-depressant. But, the testosterone molecule occurs in nature and cannot be patented thus pharma cannot make megabucks out of it. The same goes for other hormones as DHEA, pregnenolone, for vitamins and minerals, for herbal remedies…

3) To maximize their profit, they do not hesitate to add downright harmful ingredients to their medicines. Vaccination is a fantastic technique, but unfortunately the toxic substances aluminium or mercury are added to vaccines as cheap immune adjuvants.

All of this wouldn’t even be such a problem if people where free to inform themselves and to select their medicine of choice. However, nowadays the pharma industry has the power – through their influence in the government, in academics and amongst doctors – to force us to use certain medicines (like vaccines) and to outlaw or restrict others (hormones, herbal supplements).

It is not because they do good things that they cannot do bad things.

Post: #102

I agree and disagree with a few of your claims.

(09-03-2015 08:50 AM)PhDre Wrote:  ^^I think no one has said that pharma companies are useless. It is true, they make many useful medicines and vaccines, which have helped and saved millions or billions of people and have raised our standard of living and our life expectancy.

However, this does not mean that they are without blame. I see roughly three big problems with current big pharma:

1) They want to push every medicine they develop to market, even when this medicine doesn’t work that well for its intended purpose, or when the possible side effects are much more severe than the problem that is being treated, as is the case of finasteride.

That's why there are things like the FDA, to make sure that whatever comes to market is safe for consumers. Developing and having a drug approved is incredibly time consuming (think years and years), expensive (hundreds of millions and even billions) and insanely hard (the drug needs to go through several stages of approval and at any moment its approval can be denied and often is, causing extreme losses to the firm) so I don't think it's in the best interest of whatever company to develop a drug that causes more harm than good, because why would anyone buy it then? It doesn't make sense, people are not that stupid and the market would make sure the drug would be a failure, even if it ever got approved, which most likely wouldn't be.

The only way it makes sense having a drug with horrible side effects being approved to be sold to the general public is when the condition being treated by said drug is even worse then those horrible side effects, whatever they might be.

I know very little about finasteride since I've never used it or needed it but when someone comes screaming "OH MY GOD I JUST TRIED THIS AND IT ALMOST KILLED ME, DONT" TOUCH IT OR YOU WILL DIE" in a super alarmist tone about something that has been in the market for years and years and most likely has been used by millions out there I know I shouldn't take it very serious. It's unfortunate that Samseau had a bad reaction to it but it still is no reason to make it sound like it's some poison from the big bad evil pharma companies that are trying to kill us all.

(09-03-2015 08:50 AM)PhDre Wrote:  2) They only want patented medicines to be sold, even when perfectly adequate natural remedies exist. For instance it is often noted that testosterone is a far better treatment for depression than any anti-depressant. But, the testosterone molecule occurs in nature and cannot be patented thus pharma cannot make megabucks out of it. The same goes for other hormones as DHEA, pregnenolone, for vitamins and minerals, for herbal remedies…

It's not the companies who determine what can or can't be sold, that is the role of certain government agencies, and anyway, big pharma does sell vitamins, minerals, etc.

(09-03-2015 08:50 AM)PhDre Wrote:  3) To maximize their profit, they do not hesitate to add downright harmful ingredients to their medicines. Vaccination is a fantastic technique, but unfortunately the toxic substances aluminium or mercury are added to vaccines as cheap immune adjuvants.

I completely disagree with you on this, big pharma companies are not a drug dealer in a street corner adding flour to their cocaine or something, you sound like one of those anti vaccine people with your vaccination example. We could go deeper into it but your fears about mercury and aluminum are unfounded.

(09-03-2015 08:50 AM)PhDre Wrote:  All of this wouldn’t even be such a problem if people where free to inform themselves and to select their medicine of choice. However, nowadays the pharma industry has the power – through their influence in the government, in academics and amongst doctors – to force us to use certain medicines (like vaccines) and to outlaw or restrict others (hormones, herbal supplements).

Again I disagree with you, people in general are not knowledgeable enough to know what medicines they should take, that's why we have doctors and despite doctors not being right all the time or being influenced by external forces they're still a much safer bet than just let joe public self medicate, but it seems to me you have something against vaccines since you keep bringing it up. I'm on the other side of that battle, it's a touchy subject for sure but the pros of making vaccines mandatory far far outweigh the cons.

(09-03-2015 08:50 AM)PhDre Wrote:  It is not because they do good things that they cannot do bad things.

I agree with this of course, these companies are not little angels, they're big businesses trying to make a ton of money, but in the process they benefit us as well.

Post: #103

Quote:It's not the companies who determine what can or can't be sold, that is the role of certain government agencies, and anyway, big pharma does sell vitamins, minerals, etc.

While factually true many of the FDA higher ups somehow get well paying, cush jobs with pharm companies after they leave the FDA....

Quote:I completely disagree with you on this, big pharma companies are not a drug dealer in a street corner adding flour to their cocaine or something, you sound like one of those anti vaccine people with your vaccination example. We could go deeper into it but your fears about mercury and aluminum are unfounded.

No. It is a known fact that many harmful ingredients have intentionally been left on the market.

Bayer knowing selling HIV+ hemophiliac products to 3rd world countries resulting in an incredible amount of AIDS deaths. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bayer-admits...n-english/

Merck was very aware of Vioxx risks but kept them obscured and covered up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1779871/

There are many other examples just as evil as these.

Post: #104

(07-02-2015 01:51 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  I took Finasteride for a few years back when I trusted mainstream science fully. Noticed a small decrease of libido, but nothing much to me at least. I stopped some 3+ years as I started orthomolecular supplements and researched more about side effects. Did not notice much hairloss since then.

Can you share more about these supplements? What they are, what they're supposed to do and where you get them?

Post: #105

(09-04-2015 02:16 AM)Gas Wrote:  

(07-02-2015 01:51 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  I took Finasteride for a few years back when I trusted mainstream science fully. Noticed a small decrease of libido, but nothing much to me at least. I stopped some 3+ years as I started orthomolecular supplements and researched more about side effects. Did not notice much hairloss since then.

Can you share more about these supplements? What they are, what they're supposed to do and where you get them?

Ah - really got to do it. Have a big post on that with links to studies, resources, videos - also a few good companies (with tips on how to select them) and links to the products - from the cheapest non-toxic ones that work to the high-end if someone has the cash. I will link to the threads at the bottom on everyone of my post.

I have some info here and there: /thread-41364-...#pid854077

Post: #106

Thanks again for sharing, Samseau.

Post: #107

When discussing it out of curiosity, my mom says it works for the hair, but you lose your sex drive.

Post: #108

So it turns out that President Donald Trump, the most alpha man in the world, takes propecia. So much for this hysterical joke of a thread.

Post: #109

(01-28-2018 02:10 AM)LexisNexis Wrote:  So it turns out that President Donald Trump, the most alpha man in the world, takes propecia. So much for this hysterical joke of a thread.

Have you seen his hair? If anything, that confirms everything in this thread about how useless Propecia is.

Post: #110

(01-28-2018 08:25 AM)zatara Wrote:  

(01-28-2018 02:10 AM)LexisNexis Wrote:  So it turns out that President Donald Trump, the most alpha man in the world, takes propecia. So much for this hysterical joke of a thread.

Have you seen his hair? If anything, that confirms everything in this thread about how useless Propecia is.

Trump, like many wealthy individuals, got a hair transplant. It's recommended for people to take propecia after getting one to keep their expensive surgery's results lasting as long as possible.

I'd be nervous about messing with the male endocrine system too just as I am mucking with SSRIs. No one's forcing anyone to take these drugs. If they make you feel like crap, stop.

Post: #111

I have been taking this drug ever since it first come out, I cant even remember how old I was when I first started to take it, so yeah over two decades, I have a full head of hair, honestly maybe I would still if I stopped taking it. But I hate the thought of being bald and I have never had any side effects what so ever.

I personally know people that have a young guy i knew, poor fella was really going bald at 23 the side effects for him were to much.

The only thing I was ever really worried about was testosterone, I have this tested regularly and is all good.

Thanks to OP for sharing, this will certainly make me look into it a bit and not be so blazay about it.

Im not rich and my game is still not at the level I want so goddam it in the meantime I need my hair!

Post: #112

Sorry to revive this old thread, but...

I took Du… years ago.

This post FREAKED ME OUT, and I started questioning past events, so much so that I went to the doctors to talk about it.

There is an official 3.7% risk of side effects including impotence and fertility issues.

That’s the official stat, and I guess you could double it to include unreported issues, but still that’s <8%.

In any case, it’s not a risk I’d take again, and it’s made me see baldness in a new way.

Caring about your hairline to the extent that you’d risk impotence??

A shaved head is a pretty strong look...and there are lots of true alphas out there who’ve embraced it.

And pharmaceuticals? I hope to avoid them altogether (so far as I can).

Anyway, OP I sincerely hope you’ve overcome your health issues.

(Admin; I’d vote to tone down the title of this thread to be less alarmist. A strong warning to avoid Propecia and that whole family of drugs, but the risk doesn’t warrant such hysterical language.)

Post: #113

If Samseau hadn't made this thread, I would have taken this drug

He has likely saved a few men from ruining their life (temporarily, if not permanently). I can't thank him enough.

I implore every man reading this thread to read some of the stories on https://forum.propeciahelp.com/

This one in particular, really made me feel sick to my stomach: https://forum.propeciahelp.com/t/ill-be-...ition/9046

And if they know any man talking about hair loss/transplants/drugs to make them read it to. Have warned my close friends

Again, thank you Samseau, glad to hear you're nearing a full recovery. Hope it gets to 100%

Post: #114

(03-03-2019 09:38 AM)LeightonBlackstock Wrote:  If Samseau hadn't made this thread, I would have taken this drug

He has likely saved a few men from ruining their life (temporarily, if not permanently). I can't thank him enough.

I implore every man reading this thread to read some of the stories on https://forum.propeciahelp.com/

This one in particular, really made me feel sick to my stomach: https://forum.propeciahelp.com/t/ill-be-...ition/9046

And if they know any man talking about hair loss/transplants/drugs to make them read it to. Have warned my close friends

Again, thank you Samseau, glad to hear you're nearing a full recovery. Hope it gets to 100%

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. That guy in the post you linked to propeciahelp sounds way more likely that he's having severe anxiety issues than anything to do with finasteride. He took it for 2 weeks and now he's dying? What?

The mind is a powerful thing. There was a study done on finasteride for sexual side effects. They split people into 2 groups - one group was told about potential sexual side effects, the other wasn't. The ones told about it ended up experiencing them 4x as much.

I've been taking finasteride for 2 years without issue. Put on 20lbs of muscle in that time and my dick is fine. I know multiple other guys in real life with the same experience. Not one who has anything but positive things to say about it.

I've read every study I could find, and the data behind it suggests the risks are *extremely* low, mild, and in almost every case reversible if you need to stop taking it.

If you want to keep your hair and you're balding, finasteride is the best thing we've got. It's not risk free but it's just fear-mongering to call it poison.

Post: #115

(03-05-2019 03:11 AM)benopolis Wrote:  

(03-03-2019 09:38 AM)LeightonBlackstock Wrote:  If Samseau hadn't made this thread, I would have taken this drug

He has likely saved a few men from ruining their life (temporarily, if not permanently). I can't thank him enough.

I implore every man reading this thread to read some of the stories on https://forum.propeciahelp.com/

This one in particular, really made me feel sick to my stomach: https://forum.propeciahelp.com/t/ill-be-...ition/9046

And if they know any man talking about hair loss/transplants/drugs to make them read it to. Have warned my close friends

Again, thank you Samseau, glad to hear you're nearing a full recovery. Hope it gets to 100%

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. That guy in the post you linked to propeciahelp sounds way more likely that he's having severe anxiety issues than anything to do with finasteride. He took it for 2 weeks and now he's dying? What?

The mind is a powerful thing. There was a study done on finasteride for sexual side effects. They split people into 2 groups - one group was told about potential sexual side effects, the other wasn't. The ones told about it ended up experiencing them 4x as much.

I've been taking finasteride for 2 years without issue. Put on 20lbs of muscle in that time and my dick is fine. I know multiple other guys in real life with the same experience. Not one who has anything but positive things to say about it.

I've read every study I could find, and the data behind it suggests the risks are *extremely* low, mild, and in almost every case reversible if you need to stop taking it.

If you want to keep your hair and you're balding, finasteride is the best thing we've got. It's not risk free but it's just fear-mongering to call it poison.

Yes, but that isn't the only story on that forum.

Let's say 20% of them are bullshit. Hell go to 30% to be conservative. There are still lots of horror stories with the commonality being finasteride (and their experiences of weight loss, erectile dysfunction, penile tissue loss)

Also, did you read Samseau's original post of his experience on it? What's your take on that?

Genuine question: To what extent is your reaction to this formed from already taking the drug? If I was on it, I'd be very worried after reading many of those stories. Just make sure you've weighed it up before continuing with it

I'm asking these questions sincerely. Most people don't like changing habits after having new information presented to them. It seems it has a chance of affecting some vital male functions, and this can't be picked up well through medical trials yet

Many men appear to use this drug without problem, but it appears the chance of nasty side effects is played down.

There are lots of unknowns here

Post: #116

My guess is he's a rep/shill for the pharma company. The question is if pharma companies actually think they are being persuasive. And if they are, what's the nature of people who fall for that kind of reasoning.

Post: #117

(03-06-2019 01:16 AM)LeightonBlackstock Wrote:  Yes, but that isn't the only story on that forum.

Let's say 20% of them are bullshit. Hell go to 30% to be conservative. There are still lots of horror stories with the commonality being finasteride (and their experiences of weight loss, erectile dysfunction, penile tissue loss)

Also, did you read Samseau's original post of his experience on it? What's your take on that?

Genuine question: To what extent is your reaction to this formed from already taking the drug? If I was on it, I'd be very worried after reading many of those stories. Just make sure you've weighed it up before continuing with it

I'm asking these questions sincerely. Most people don't like changing habits after having new information presented to them. It seems it has a chance of affecting some vital male functions, and this can't be picked up well through medical trials yet

Many men appear to use this drug without problem, but it appears the chance of nasty side effects is played down.

There are lots of unknowns here

Lets not make up 20% or 30% numbers. There's no way to really tell.

In regards to the OP, here's what I'm reading:

"I took propecia for 6 months, reduced my dose to 0.5mg and eventually stopped taking it. Specific reasons not stated.

I then got injured at the gym and had to stop going. I lost a lot of muscle mass. I say nothing about what my lifestyle was like during this period.

I noticed my sex drive was also down"

I'm sure he experienced what he experienced, but I'm skeptical that finasteride was the cause.

Quote:They say negative side effects only happen to 2%, when it's clear from the forum I linked above that it's way higher than that

This is straight up false and shows the OP isn't at all thinking rationally about it. That forum doesn't prove this.

Quote:In 2014, 1.2 million prescriptions were written for finasteride for hair loss, according to IMS Health; another 8.2 million were written for prostate issues, which it is also prescribed for

8.2 million are likely taking 5mg / day, what is usually prescribed for prostate issues and 5x as much as what's normally taken for hair loss (1mg). Millions of people take the drug. Where are the 10-20% of people experiencing these side effects? None of the data or studies available that I've seen points to PFS or these extreme negative side effects being something you should worry about

I'm very careful about what I put in my body. I spent many many hours reading all the propeciahelp, peoples experiences, studies, any information I could get my hands on before I decided to take it. I formed my opinion then. Nothing new I've seen has made me rethink anything.

Again I don't think it's risk free. Post-Finasteride Syndrome is probably real, I don't know. But I DO think it's extremely rare and not something people should worry about. A small amount of questionable forum posts compared to the millions of people taking the drug, and actual scientific studies on it doesn't worry me that much

Post: #118

A few places will sell topical fin (2.5% iirc) apparently less sides and some crazy results for some people.

Pricey though