Post: #1

Gentlemen, you may have heard about propecia (active ingredient: Finasteride) as the wonder pill that slows or even stops hair loss in men. According to Wikipedia:

Quote:Finasteride is used to treat male pattern hair loss (androgenetic alopecia) in men only.[4] Treatment provides about 30% improvement in hair loss after six months of treatment, and effectiveness only persists as long as the drug is taken.

The way it works:

Quote: It is a type II 5α-reductase inhibitor; 5α-reductase, an enzyme, converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

That 5a-reductase enzyme, which does seem to cause hair follicle death, turns out to be extremely important for the health of any man. How do I know this?

I've been taking a generic form of Finasteride for the past year, and let me share with you my journey in androgenous hell. I started with 1-mg a day, but after about 6 months I reduced the amount of .5-mg by cutting the pills in half. Despite taking a reduced amount, the effects were absolutely crippling on my life as a man. It's been roughly one month since I've stopped using this poison and now my life is slowly returning back to normal.

The first six months were uneventful, and I was even happy with the results: hairs were falling out of my hair much slower than normal. My hair loss was not anything extreme - I used to have long bangs covering my forehead and it was receding. I was not losing any hair on the back of my head. My reasons for taking the pill were for maximum vanity - I wanted to preserve every last hair on my head if at all possible. The price I ended up paying has made me realize my hubris, although in my defense there was no way to know how bad shit could get.

At the end of these first six months, I also happened to break things off with a girl was I was banging back in last November. This would be the last time I would have sex. I am still currently in the dry spell.

What started the downward spiral was that one day, at the gym, after doing some routine squats, I felt a sharp joint pain in my hip where the femur is connected. I figured I pulled a tendon and I needed to stay out of the gym for a few weeks while it recovered.

A month later, the pain was still there, and I had lost 5 pounds of muscle mass. I was down to 155 pounds at 5'8''. I hated going to doctors so I figured I would just take the month of January to rest some more. I read online that tendons can take a long time to heal.

Three months later, pain was still there. I was down to 150 pounds. I was becoming depressed because I couldn't lift at the gym and I was starting to walk with a limp. I also noticed that for the past six months, I had absolutely no desire to find women or have sex. I forced myself to go out dancing to pick up some chicks, but when I was dancing with them I never felt like asking them out nor did I feel any desire to have sex. I thought at first since it was deep in winter I was just being lazy, but even looking at porn did little to stimulate me. I wondered if I was just getting old and weak?

6 months later, the pain in my femur at the hip was still there. I weighed 135 pounds. 25 pounds of muscle mass gone. I could see my ribs when I sucked in my stomach. My strength and energy had disappeared. I was constantly in need of naps. At my step-mother's 60th birthday party, I fell asleep on a couch in spite of not having a single drink and it only being 9pm. At this point, my father came over to me and asked me to see a doctor, and told me he was worried sick for my health. I looked in the mirror and saw this:



At this point, I wasn't sure what the hell was wrong with me. So I googled, "Propecia weight loss" and I found this forum:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/

A forum of thousands of men, all who have been destroyed by this drug. The stories were horrifying, and most of them far worse than mine - men who not only had lost all functionality of testosterone, but many had quit for years and still never recovered!!!

At this point, I felt like a total fool. I threw my pills in the trash but saved a few for the Doctor to look at.

The stories on this forum range from guys who took the pill for 6 years before noticing their health was deteriorating, all the way to extreme cases of men who took the pill for one month and their dick shut off, permanently, forever.

From reading on this forum, I discovered another disturbing fact: 99% of doctors are unable to detect what is wrong with men who are taking propecia. Blood tests do not reveal any lowered amount of testosterone, or any other anomalies. Thus the men on the forum came up with a different hypothesis.

5α-reductase is similar to the spark plug in a car engine. Without a spark plug in an engine, gasoline will pump into the cylinders but no ignition will happen. Likewise propecia shuts off this enzyme which makes all the testosterone functionally useless. Thus when you take blood samples, no medical professional will detect anything wrong with you.

Furthermore, the joint pain was caused by the shrinkage of muscles - they squeeze around the joint causing it grind together. I fear I may have caused permanent damage to my femur/hip joint as a result, but as I am writing this the pain has lessened considerable as my muscle mass grows back. I am currently back at 141 pounds. Still another 19 pounds of muscle mass to go. I went out dancing last week and I felt the rush of dancing with pretty girls once again. My manhood will survive this.

Don't let it happen to you though. If you are currently taking propecia or any other alternative, STOP RIGHT NOW! It's just a matter of time before you get fucked over by this poison. Some men's bodies handle the poison better than others; but it's the dose which makes the poison so the longer you poison yourself, the more likely bad shit is going to happen to you.

Your testosterone is way more valuable than your hair. Trust me. I learned the hard way. Most guys don't realize just how essential this gift from God is until you don't have it. Without testosterone functioning properly, you cannot grow muscles, fuck women, or even think straight. It's essential to every function as a man.

Better hair replacement technology is coming in the next ten years anyways. Hair cloning will be upon us before you know it. Don't risk your health on this scam foisted upon men. There are currently class action lawsuits against the company, although as usual because it only affects men most people don't give a fuck. Propecia is engaged in false advertising on two counts:

1. They say negative side effects only happen to 2%, when it's clear from the forum I linked above that it's way higher than that. My guess is somewhere between 10%-20% of men suffer terrible effects.

2. They say negative side effects are only temporary, when in fact tons of men suffer from permanent damage, either in loss of sex function, muscle function, or joint function.


This pill is yet another example of big pharma selling bullshit in order to make profits. Don't let yourself be a victim of this insanely evil industry.

Post: #2

Scary facts. Thanks for sharing, this will surely be invaluable to some.

Hope you recover well and quickly.

Post: #3

Thanks for the warning. I'm sure this article will save at least one man.

I hope your health gets back quickly.

Post: #4

Samseau,

I feel terrible that you had to go through this.

I was trying to warn guys about finasteride in this thread about a year ago. I should have been even more aggressive about it. Most men who use it don't experience these terrible side effects but a very significant minority do and you never know if you will be one of them. It's not worth it.

Messing with the body's androgen production system -- especially DHT -- is a very fucking bad idea.

However: if you really lost 25 lbs of weight off a 160 lbs frame, that is pretty concerning and I find it hard to believe that all of that weight loss is explained by finasteride. The loss of libido, sure... but losing 15% of your body weight? I don't know about that.

If I were you I'd get a very full medical checkup, and I'd do it sooner rather than later -- urgently, in fact. That kind of weight loss is really something that needs to be examined.

Post: #5

(05-31-2015 08:41 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Samseau,

I feel terrible that you had to go through this.

I was trying to warn guys about finasteride in this thread about a year ago. I should have been even more aggressive about it. Most men who use it don't experience these terrible side effects but a very significant minority do and you never know if you will be one of them. It's not worth it.

Messing with the body's androgen production system -- especially DHT -- is a very fucking bad idea.

However: if you really lost 25 lbs of weight off a 160 lbs frame, that is pretty concerning and I find it hard to believe that all of that weight loss is explained by finasteride. The loss of libido, sure... but losing 15% of your body weight? I don't know about that.

If I were you I'd get a very full medical checkup, and I'd do it sooner rather than later -- urgently, in fact. That kind of weight loss is really something that needs to be examined.

My frame is normally around 145 pounds. With lifting I can get it to more. At my maximum bulking, I weigh 170 but I feel a bit too heavy and sluggish. 160 is perfect for me in my experience.

And yes, I'm going for blood work asap.

Also, the real eye opener is that propecia help forum - it's disgusting men have had to organize over the internet just to diagnose themselves.

Post: #6

(05-31-2015 08:19 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Thanks for the warning. I'm sure this article will save at least one man.

I hope your health gets back quickly.

Roosh, hopefully I can get this up on RoK as one of my first return articles. I think this deserves maximum attention.

Post: #7

Thanks for posting this.

I have moderate hair loss and had considered taking this drug a couple of years ago but decided I wouldn't even experiment with it after reading all the horror stories. So many men have had their manhood wrecked by this drug I can't believe it's still on the market. If women were affected by a drug this badly it would be a huge national scandal.

One of the worst aspects is that often the damage isn't apparent until it's too late. Everything seems fine and then suddenly there's a loss of sex drive and functioning that may take a long time to return or may be permanent. And there's no way to tell who may get the catastrophic side effects.

Don't touch this shit. Seek other hair loss solutions or just live with it; the risk is completely not worth it

Post: #8

(05-31-2015 08:46 PM)Samseau Wrote:  My frame is normally around 145 pounds. With lifting I can get it to more. At my maximum bulking, I weigh 170 but I feel a bit too heavy and sluggish. 160 is perfect for me in my experience.

And yes, I'm going for blood work asap.

OK, that's a different story. The 10 lbs or so weight loss from a 145 lbs baseline could easily be due to stopping lifting and mild/moderate depression due to low DHT from finasteride. Given this, I am much less concerned and it's likely your blood work will come back fine. You should still do it, of course.

Post: #9

Thanks for posting. All drugs have risks and potential side effects. I have been taking Finasteride for 4 years. I have had no side effects related to energy, mood or libido. I am lifting heavier and harder than ever before at 39 years old. It is too bad that others have had side effects because the drug really does help prevent hair loss.

Post: #10

(05-31-2015 08:46 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Also, the real eye opener is that propecia help forum - it's disgusting men have had to organize over the internet just to diagnose themselves.

interesting

Post: #11

If I'm not mistaken Basil Ransom has posted tips about how to reduce the side effect risk (such as skipping days).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the FDA may now have a "Blackbox" warning (the most serious) on Propecia for the reasons Samseau explained.

In any case, good luck.

Post: #12

I have been using Finasteride for two years and still have my hair. Also, the same chemical is used in a drug I am taking to shrink an enlarged prostrate. Prostate problems are a serious issue for men. Most men end up having an enlarged prostate by the time they reach their 50s.

http://www.patient.co.uk/medicine/finast...nt-proscar

http://www.cancer.gov/types/prostate/res...-low-grade

Post: #13

I take finasteride as noted. To be honest, it's hard to decide whether to take it or not. You don't know what finasteride will do to you once you're on it, or if the finasteride is causing your issues. I lost interest in pursuing girls all of a sudden earlier this year, after years of being obsessed with it and simultaneously taking finasteride. My interest has since gone back up; at the same time, I haven't been lifting for various reasons. Personally, I don't mind because it helped me gain some perspective, and I have no way of knowing what caused it. I do recall reading that side effects are more prevalent among older men.

If you do decide to take it, consider scaling back the dosage to .1-.25 mg per day. If I recall correctly, these dosages are just as effective. The 5 mg dose had more side effects than the 1 mg, so this even lower dosage could curb side effects. Some say though that if you're taking enough to curb hair loss, you're taking enough to get side effects as well.

It seems many men can take it without issue. I think it's something each man should decide for himself.

There is also another, similar drug, dutasteride. Not sure if it is better or worse in terms of side effects. It is about to go generic I believe.

Post: #14

Thanks for this information. I have moderate hair loss and I'm strongly invested in stopping it using Finasteride, as I've heard some men have had great results on it and minimal to no side effects. However, after reading what you posted you made me think twice.

I'll take this with a grain of salt and I will do my own research, though - just to be sure. Sometimes a certain drug or medical procedure is demonized by a segment of a community and it later turns out it's not as bad as it's made out to be.

Post: #15

Taking it at a low dose. Perfectly fine. Erections A Ok. Best shape in my life.

People experience things you describe all the time not on finasteride or any meds at all. There are countless reasons and sometimes no reason at all.

Anytime someone feels off they will blame the most recent change in their life, especially a new medication. Often it is invalid.

With finasteride specifically, it's more often prescribed at 5X the dose you took to men with Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia. There are literally millions of men on it in the USA. It's highly doubtful serious side effects are occurring with significant frequency and no one noticing.

No different then people trying to link autism to vaccines and so forth even though it's been refuted beyond any reasonable doubt.

Post: #16

(05-31-2015 10:58 PM)ganjian Wrote:  Thanks for this information. I have moderate hair loss and I'm strongly invested in stopping it using Finasteride, as I've heard some men have had great results on it and minimal to no side effects. However, after reading what you posted you made me think twice.

I'll take this with a grain of salt and I will do my own research, though - just to be sure. Sometimes a certain drug or medical procedure is demonized by a segment of a community and it later turns out it's not as bad as it's made out to be.

Go to that forum I linked, and tell me if the risks are worth it. Let's just put it this way: that 2% figure is bullshit.

Post: #17

Much like baldness itself, response to a drug like this is probably genetic luck of the draw. Sucks.

I wonder if a confounding factor here (not for you Samseau, but for many of those other guys) could be prescription antidepressants. SSRIs are among the most commonly prescribed drugs in this country, and are known to cause sexual dysfunction while you're on them, and in some cases even after you've stopped taking them.

Wouldn't be surprised if many hapless guys in a middle age slump pop in to talk to a doctor about hair loss end up getting sold on an antidepressant too.

Post: #18

go to bodybuilding forums amigo. you need to reset your HPTA

Post: #19

On the topic of horrible drugs you need to avoid... add fluoroquinolones (an antibiotic) to the list. It has black box warnings and generally should be used as a last resort... but is prescribed for retardedly mild things like UTI or sinus infections.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...fects.aspx

Post: #20

(06-01-2015 01:38 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-31-2015 10:58 PM)ganjian Wrote:  Thanks for this information. I have moderate hair loss and I'm strongly invested in stopping it using Finasteride, as I've heard some men have had great results on it and minimal to no side effects. However, after reading what you posted you made me think twice.

I'll take this with a grain of salt and I will do my own research, though - just to be sure. Sometimes a certain drug or medical procedure is demonized by a segment of a community and it later turns out it's not as bad as it's made out to be.

Go to that forum I linked, and tell me if the risks are worth it. Let's just put it this way: that 2% figure is bullshit.

A forum called PropeciaHelp is obviously going to attract people that haven't had a good experience with the drug. If you take a drug and it works well you aren't going to join a community dedicated to discussing side effects and sharing negative experiences. The idea that 10-20% of users have such debilitating side effects is ridiculous -- if it were that widespread, there would be huge public outrage considering the millions of people that take Propecia.

I've taken Finasteride for about four years at 1 mg daily. It's stopped my hair loss and I haven't experienced any side effects at all. Several of my friends also take it and have had the same experience. Millions of people use this drug so of course there are going to be some people who get side effects, some much worse than others.

That doesn't mean the drug is poison. A small number of people get horrible side effects from all sorts of otherwise harmless drugs.

Blaming a gym injury on a drug and then warning people about it as if it's a poison is ridiculous fear mongering. There are also a lot of factual inaccuracies in your post, like doctors being unable to detect issues caused by finasteride. It's easy to check DHT levels (the androgen finasteride blocks) with a simple blood test.

Did a doctor tell you finasteride caused your gym injury or did you come to that conclusion yourself based on forum advice?

Post: #21

(05-31-2015 08:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Roosh, hopefully I can get this up on RoK as one of my first return articles. I think this deserves maximum attention.

Please do.

I feel for you man. Thanks for sharing, I was considering getting some, also out of vanity. One of my students got it last year and reported no bad effects. But since, he broke up with his THREE girls and Ive noticed him struggling over the most basic game concepts like not being needy. Ill make sure he reads this.

Luckily you where in enough good health and knew your body well enough to notice a decline. Most men are in terrible shape and wouldnt be able to tell if something went wrong.

By the way, last Halloween I shaved my head and went as Walter White. I fucked a 20 year old preppy chick that night. So now I know hair or no hair, game trumps it all.

Post: #22

(05-31-2015 08:41 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Samseau,

I feel terrible that you had to go through this.

I was trying to warn guys about finasteride in this thread about a year ago. I should have been even more aggressive about it. Most men who use it don't experience these terrible side effects but a very significant minority do and you never know if you will be one of them. It's not worth it.

Messing with the body's androgen production system -- especially DHT -- is a very fucking bad idea.

However: if you really lost 25 lbs of weight off a 160 lbs frame, that is pretty concerning and I find it hard to believe that all of that weight loss is explained by finasteride. The loss of libido, sure... but losing 15% of your body weight? I don't know about that.

If I were you I'd get a very full medical checkup, and I'd do it sooner rather than later -- urgently, in fact. That kind of weight loss is really something that needs to be examined.

The one real niche medically that justifies propecia is that it is a drug which can fight prostate enlargement at advanced age which gets good patient compliance because it has a good vanity selling angle in the hair retention. If you are old enough for your doctor to be concerned about you prostate size, propecia might be an option. At such an age though the androgrens tend to be awfully disregulated and DHT blocking might make sense you you can take a normal piss.

Otherwise if you really want to keep you hair the topical vasodialators like Rogaine are probably the best option. I imagine the part where they require regular use is annoying, but given the trade offs between these two major classes of drugs if your hair is going young it is the safer option. The topical vasodialators have the safe local effect of keeping the follicles fed with blood, but at least it isn't unleasing hell on your androgens.

DHT is a useful androgren as you go from young to middle adulthood. It's androgen effect is stronger than normal testosterone which helps it do serious work maintaining your biological masculinity. If I were more conspiracy minded I'd maybe offer that pushing propecia on younger people might be a general war on the masculine thing a person might expect out of Sweden.

Anyways there are few things more liberating than the sun on your scalp after you've taken a bic to it.

Post: #23

(06-01-2015 01:38 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Go to that forum I linked, and tell me if the risks are worth it. Let's just put it this way: that 2% figure is bullshit.

No offense, brother, but your 10%-20% figure is bullshit. Going to a forum where the 1% affected hangout and share notes is no way to accurately gauge the rate of side effects. It's like going to the Victoria Secret fashion show and concluding that all women are hot and in shape.

I've been taking finasteride semi-regularly for years at the 1.25 mg dosage without serious side effects. Are my cumshots smaller? Probably. Can I still pop boners at age 40? Yes. Are they as good as they were when I was 20? Nope, but dude, I'm 40.

Here's a link to relevant info: http://www.rxlist.com/propecia-drug/side...tions.htm. The rate of meaningful side effects seems to be around 1%-2%.

Sorry for your experience, but it's not going to get me off this pill. I love my hair, and so do the girls I'm sleeping with.

Post: #24

Finasteride is a tricky one to discuss for just the reasons you see in this thread: for many men it is a near-magic pill that seems to work and so they are skeptical of the relatively few who suffer from it, but for those who it hurts the effects are extreme.

I wrote up my experiences on it at /thread-27165-...#pid631460 , and in short I had similar problems with my libido disappearing. I never had the muscle atrophy issue, though with something messing with T levels I can see it happening. I agree with others suggesting that the OP gets checked for other possible causes of that issue to be on the safe side.

Quote:There is also another, similar drug, dutasteride. Not sure if it is better or worse in terms of side effects. It is about to go generic I believe.

Dusteride has a more extreme version of the same effect: finasertide drops blood levels of 5α-reductase by roughly 60%, while dusteride drops them to near-zero.

Where Propecia has an "official" side effect rate of 2%, dusteride's is 4% (last I checked). Even taking the claimed side effect numbers at face value, handle with caution.

Quote:Blaming a gym injury on a drug and then warning people about it as if it's a poison is ridiculous fear mongering. There are also a lot of factual inaccuracies in your post, like doctors being unable to detect issues caused by finasteride. It's easy to check DHT levels (the androgen finasteride blocks) with a simple blood test.

Did a doctor tell you finasteride caused your gym injury or did you come to that conclusion yourself based on forum advice?

You are right that a help forum will have an out-of-proportion demographic of people suffering side effects.

I do want to point out that there's more to diagnosing Propecia problems than just DHT: you can check out a number of blood work-ups at http://propeciahelp.com/endocrinology that show other issues. You often see elevated prolactin, various out-of-whack estrogens, etc. The problem is that when you remove finasteride, for some men the blood levels don't return to normal even when DHT gets back in bounds.

One interesting hypothesis I came across is an endocrinologist who proposed that finasteride causes androgen resistance: http://blog.alanjacobsmd.com/alan-jacobs...ride.html. It would explain the variety of strange side effects, though I'd like to find more current information on it.

Post: #25

Hmm, I'm not on Propecia, nonetheless I've lost most interest in pursuing women the last two years. Maybe I should start taking it?

Dude, I feel your pain, but your sides could be pure coincidence, a sign of another issue (you lost that much weight??!), due to your age, etc. Are you depressed?

Instead of fear mongering and telling every guy to "STOP TAKING PROPECIA RIGHT NOW", you should just describe your experience with Propecia and leave it at that. Many men derive a great deal of benefit from taking Propecia, case in point not_dead_yet's post above.

I wish you the best of health.