Post: #1

Guys, help me review my default date game and see why it isn’t working anymore.

I think either Im about to hit that major breakthrough Gio mentioned, or my head is gonna fucking explode.

TL;DR version: flakes goes way down, quality goes way up but close rate plummet like the Euro. Dates usually go very well and dont feel like a battle. Girls attractive and attracted. Kino and escalation go well but cant kiss close (only 3/12) nor fuck close (1/12)

The good side: I’ve been going on dates almost every week now, and with girls I am really attracted to. Quality has shot through the roof, they are all very pretty, feminine and pleasant to spend time with. My approaches are getting better, first impression generally solid and number close is a no brainer. Flake rate for the last 3 months 1/12 girls.

The bad side: My default date game isn’t leading to closing anymore. I only fuck close 1 out of 12 girls I went out with. Even kiss close is no longer a given. Usually when I spit my best game I would get at least a kiss. These last 3 dates I took the girls to my locked down venue, spit my best game, has a blast but the girl just doesn’t kiss.

Last night date for ex:

Girl showed up exactly on time, dolled up with yoga pants. French-Indian girl. Imagine your typical cute white brunette with long flowing hair but with big Indian eyes and a fuckawesome ass.

Mechanics: At the salsa venue where we needed to pay the entrance fee she says “Im paying for myself” I wasn’t sure if it was a question or if she was insisting, so I just laugh and use my typical line “sure, Im not an ATM anyway” She was paying by credit card. In hindsight I could have paid the fees, but its no big deal, like 10euros.

I usually let the girl pay for herself unless she doesnt have money/is pleasant and earned a treat/I fucked up the logistics somehow

Took her hand and led her through the crowd, she followed willingly. Good sign. Hi-five the DJs, introduced her to some people. When she said she knows this place well, I teased her about knowing no one here in a “you know nothing Jon Snow” tone.

Conversation: my default conversation mode is always cocky-funny like that. Say for ex, talking about age. She said she s 20, I said “Oh so you are still just a toddler!” she tried a couple times to guess my age, when she got it right “took you some guesses, not very bright huh?” always with a laugh from both me and her.

Frame is generally solid, she laughs at everything I say. Never an awkward moment.

Compliance wise she passes everything. 100% attention on me, no looking at her phone, follow me where I wanted etc.

Kino: everything except kissing her. I could play with her hand, thighs, shoulder, lightly grazed her perfect ass. No resistance there. And since we’re dancing there s a ton of kino, caresses and physical escalation.

Kissing: during the dance when it gets hot I would do my typical move then go in for the kiss.



Tried it twice and both times I get the head turn. I always play it cool, just pretend like it never happen to try again later. And the girl’s demeanor doesn’t change at all.

End of the night, walked her out and offered my arm like the classic gentleman. She gladly took it. I escorted her home. When she’s about to go in I tried again for the kiss. Head turn but she is blushing and smiling and said “Not now”.

I mentioned hanging out again and she seemed eager.

Logistic: she lived with her parents. Called them just before she went back. So SNL is a no-go.

I ALWAYS try to venue changed to my crib with the classic that usually worked "phew its hot, lets go grab a quick drink at my place, but Ive got work tomorrow so you cant get me drunk"

Not working as of late.

This is basically how my last 3 dates went, very similar.

Optional reading: I went home and discussed with my wing/roommate. Dude is legit, 35 notches at 22.

Wing “You tried to kiss the girl 3 times???? I told you you don’t have to be so aggressive. You gotta build up the anticipation and give her time”

Me: “I don’t have time. Its either I banged on first date or I never see the girl again”

Wing: “No bro, that shit aint working. If you kiss on first date she will think you are a player etc.”

Me: “You are talking as a good looking white guy. I have to cash in all my chips fast with the hands Im dealt”

Wing: “You are devaluing yourself too much” I have been getting this A LOT from my buddies.

Wing: “Ok, try to kiss her once. If she is not down don’t try again. Wait for the signs”

Here’s the thing. Every crazy makeout sessions Ive had so far, I never got any signs. I just position myself and go for it. If I sit around waiting for signs I might as well try to build a sandcastle on a surfing beach.

**********************************************
So there it is. Basically my all my recent dates in a nutshell.

It used to work. It used to be my default game. But now its not working and I don’t know why. My energy level is the same high. My conversation is smoother. My value is slightly higher.

The only slight difference is that, they don’t drink as much as my dates from last year did. They finish about half of their drink. And all 3 SEEMED to be the “good” type (I cringed writing these words)

Im willing to make changes, but I need to know where to start changing.

Post: #2

I notice a couple of things: I would suggest against trying to ask the girl out again while you are still on the first date. Keep some mystery. Also, why are you so eager to see the girl again if the won't kiss you?

Sometimes girls have stupid rules, like they will not kiss on the first date, but they fuck on the second.

Some women don't like to kiss in public, but turn into an absolute freak when you get them back to your apartment.

I don't understand it, but there you have it.

My suggestion would be to get girls on dates that are closer to your apartment, so you have an easier time luring them back. You said all of your last three dates ended like this one, where you bring them back to their parents house where a bang would be impossible. So work on better logistics, have an idea of how you are going to get the girl in a position where you can bang her.(if she lives with her parents and the parents are home, that rules out her place)

My suggestion: concentrate on having fun and enjoying their company, rather than whether you are far enough up the kino escalation checklist to go for a makeout. But definitely have better logistics so you can actually lure them back to your apartment and try to bang.

I don't really like going for makeouts in public, I just don't like it so I don't do it.

A lot of girls just will not bang on the first date, it may take a couple of dates. Don't write them off if they are not having sex with you immediately. But yea, definitely still be trying to bang on the first date.

Post: #3

Based on this post, it sounds like the sexual tension and your vibe is lacking.

You don't describe her demeanour but rather microevents in your interaction.

Kino is well and all but how are you looking at her and how is she looking at you?

Are you verbally or physically sexual? Do they seem uncomfortable? Are you putting on a player vibe? Do they feel comfortable with going home with you?

The next plateau is not seeing girls again post-bang. If you bang these ones like this, it is unlikely you will have a repeat customer.

When you kiss, are you looking into each other's eyes intently or do you just try and get a sneaky one in?

It sounds like you're quite fun to be around but there is a difference between fun and sexy.

You can still bang this one, you just gotta push/pull accordingly.

Don't wait for signs but rather impose your frame and see where the 'signs' fit the narrative of 'it just happened' to defuse her slut alarm and for her to submit.

My suggestion is to internalize these things and become less outcome dependent. It ends up being a thirsty vibe instead of a sexually beneficial vibe.

Your friend is right, don't be so hard on yourself. Be a bit vulnerable and tone down the cocky/funny as if they're on a date with you, you're already halfway there. No need for player vibe here, it's only useful for preselection.

TL;DR (for you):

- Less player vibe and pushy
- Build up the sexual tension more than swooping in for kisses ad hoc
- More vulnerability on one-on-one dates, less cocky funny (ratio 1:2), open yourself but remain mysterious
- Less outcome dependence, understand that you cannot control everything; just enjoy yourself and the excitement of meeting new people
- Meet at your place and bounce to the date venue (I am running a bit late, come meet me at my apartment quickly -> weed out the time-wasters). The bounce means she will be familiar with your place and it will be less of an 'event', going to yours after

Treat it less like a girl you met at a club and more like a girl you're taking on a date minus the chump provider mindset.

Post: #4

(05-21-2015 07:22 AM)eradicator Wrote:  I notice a couple of things: I would suggest against trying to ask the girl out again while you are still on the first date. Keep some mystery. Also, why are you so eager to see the girl again if the won't kiss you?

This is true. I was still following Mystery classic of projecting a future of you two doing stuff together. I guess its no longer in the game this move?

Believe me usually if the girl is less than pleasant I would get up and leave mid-date. Ive done that. But these girls are cute and feminine, I actually do want to see them again save for the part Im stuck at not kissing.

Im trying to balance between showing some desire and appearing too aloof. We often harp about showing desire for a girl turning them on. This stuff is hard to get. I guess wanting to see her again is not a good way to show desire (sure, I showed it by escalating and being dominant too)

Quote:My suggestion would be to get girls on dates that are closer to your apartment, so you have an easier time luring them back. You said all of your last three dates ended like this one, where you bring them back to their parents house where a bang would be impossible. So work on better logistics, have an idea of how you are going to get the girl in a position where you can bang her.(if she lives with her parents and the parents are home, that rules out her place)

I always try to go to my lock down bar that takes 15min to get back to my place. Thing is, these girls all supposed to get back at a certain hour. Even one girl who lives alone just refuses to bounce to my crib, but she was down for going to another bar right next door to the first venue.

I cant push further than that less I appear rapy.

Quote:My suggestion: concentrate on having fun and enjoying their company, rather than whether you are far enough up the kino escalation checklist to go for a makeout. But definitely have better logistics so you can actually lure them back to your apartment and try to bang.

True. And this is where I think Im getting better, because dates with these girls have been pleasant so far, unlike last year where I just slough through the date to escalate. Thats why I have no problem seeing her again, but I can not be losing my time with girls who wont put out.

Quote:You don't describe her demeanour but rather microevents in your interaction.

Kino is well and all but how are you looking at her and how is she looking at you?

Are you verbally or physically sexual? Do they seem uncomfortable? Are you putting on a player vibe? Do they feel comfortable with going home with you?

Noir: good call. I think this is one thing Im defenitely lacking. Truth be told Ive never been really able to correctly develop this.

I have to pay more attention about the sexual vibe with body language and eye contact. I still focus too much on kino and verbal push/pull for my sexual vibe. This is too frat-bro like and we're no longer playing college basketball anymore.

Quote:It sounds like you're quite fun to be around but there is a difference between fun and sexy.

Ive been thinking this too. Girls definitely enjoy my company and Im never in the friendzone, but Im still not in the sexy guy zone.

Can you expand more on how I can do this?

Jesus fuck if I can just get them to my crib half of this shit would never happen. Maybe I need a smoother transition home? Or really stick to Tuth's move of only trying to kiss her back at your pad and not in public?

Post: #5

I don't know where you are located and how liberal the girls you are with, but try refraining from kissing them until they are at your place alone with you.

Post: #6

(05-21-2015 08:44 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  I don't know where you are located and how liberal the girls you are with, but try refraining from kissing them until they are at your place alone with you.

True, my bad. Im in Paris, France and lately been going out with college girls doing arts/literature stuff. But unlike the crazies US liberal these girls seem to be more traditional.

Guys, what about Roosh's advice of always kissing on first date? thats why I have been pretty dead on getting the kiss in. Because its not a given that she will bounce to your crib on the first date. So if you cant isolate at your place at least kiss her out in public, no?

Post: #7

Tuth's well-known essay traverses more than adequately the issues you've mentioned as being obstacles. There are also a few gems in the replies to his treatise.

Key things to think about:
*Trying to kiss those girls in public and on date number 1;
*Setting up dates that objectively speaking cannot result in sex;
*Going on dates in the first place

Post: #8

First, hotter girls are more difficult because the relative value gap between you and her is smaller.

Second, you might be qualifying them less because you see them as better quality and hence are already sold on them. So keep on qualifying them on their personality and skills as if their looks aren't enough. They still need to feel like they won you over.

(05-21-2015 06:47 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Tried it twice and both times I get the head turn. I always play it cool, just pretend like it never happen to try again later. And the girl’s demeanor doesn’t change at all.

This part is key. Getting rejected when you try to kiss her might be one of the biggest opportunities to demonstrate your unshakable confidence. And that's why I love that part.

For most guys, the average beta, the biggest fear on a date is "what if she rejects me?" and that's why they avoid or delay sexual escalation. So the classical advice is to play it cool, since that's better than being embarrassed.

When I get the turned cheek, I absolutely don't pretend it didn't happen. We both know it happened and she should know I tried to kiss her, that my goal is to have sex with her.

I let her know that I love this, the challenge. By the way I look at her and the smirk that immediately appears. She sees she has finally caught my attention, that I like the challenge knowing that I will get what I want. The rejection is not the end of the interaction, it is where it really starts.

More difficult to explain than expected, but I hope I've conveyed the vibe. I crack a smile automatically because I genuinely enjoy it when she rebuffs me. Not some slut in a bar of course, that would make me doubt my skills. But a less experienced girl that is hesitant because of your smoothness, that gets me going.

P.S. I normally kiss girls when I meet them going out. So that's in public. Then I already tell them I don't think that's appropriate. On a subsequent date I do not kiss them in public so they have a reason to come home that's not sex in their minds (hint: it is sex). See Tuthmosis' first date recipe.

Post: #9

re: becoming sexy guy over entertainer guy off the top of my head


Find the right balance of push and pull. For every x pulls, y pushes that is congruent based on your (a) personality (you said cocky funny here) (b) familiarity/duration you've known each other and © scenario; text vs. real life


When pulling:

- Sexual intent. Look at them sexually, convey your masculinity. This sounds hocus pocus but all you gotta do is just not ignore what is attracting you and harness it. Less talking more doing.

- Kino- you do this already from what I can tell. After a while be a bit more bold. Maybe the salsa example is different because it is expected that you will kino thus making it less 'sexual'/bold(I think salsa is legit though)

- Body language. You own her body and everything is second nature. My excuse is 'my culture' we are very touchy/feely.

- I will complement but little stupid things.

When pushing:

- Body language (60%+ of pushing).

- Only verbal pushing I do is teasing, especially silly things. Her favourable response gets a pull, human behaviour is wired so. I will sometimes repeat what they say like a child would if she is annoying or has a cliche woman moment.

- Being aloof or not paying attention.

Pushing is easy you can come up with a lot of examples but it has to be down to your frame and never in reaction to what she does.

Push only on your own determined 'highs' otherwise it will look butthurt.

Just apply an observational lens to yourself and the interaction based on what she is giving you and adapt. Make it sexual, comfortable, exciting based on what is happening.

You will start to see patterns but this is why people keep telling you to approach, to get a sample size and an accurate depiction of your skillset.

Post: #10

(05-21-2015 10:00 AM)sixsix Wrote:  This part is key. Getting rejected when you try to kiss her might be one of the biggest opportunities to demonstrate your unshakable confidence. And that's why I love that part.

For most guys, the average beta, the biggest fear on a date is "what if she rejects me?" and that's why they avoid or delay sexual escalation. So the classical advice is to play it cool, since that's better than being embarrassed.

When I get the turned cheek, I absolutely don't pretend it didn't happen. We both know it happened and she should know I tried to kiss her, that my goal is to have sex with her.

I let her know that I love this, the challenge. By the way I look at her and the smirk that immediately appears. She sees she has finally caught my attention, that I like the challenge knowing that I will get what I want. The rejection is not the end of the interaction, it is where it really starts.

QFT
Most guys simply can't tell the difference between a rejection that means "NO" and a rejection that means "not now." And this misinterpretation comes almost entirely from a lack of confidence/experience. People are so averse to pain and "rejection" they never decode these nuances.

Post: #11

Lets see, just got a feedback from the girl herself.

Goes like this:

“I didn’t like the fact that you tried to kiss me yesterday because we only knew each other 2 days ago and I thought we were going out as friends”

I call bullshit on the whole going out as friends part. I chalk this up to moving too fast compared to the comfort level of the girl. Or I didn’t create enough sexual tension and activated her ASD. This is more about bad calibration rather than her not being attracted.

Still, this is actually good. First time a girl calls me out instead of just going radio silence, this means that she actually is somewhat invested in the interaction. Maybe worth a salvage?

What do you guys say about a response? Do I acknowledge her problem or just brush it off?

Im thinking along this line:

“Oh sorry I didn’t mean to make you comfortable. It just happened I didn’t even think about it, maybe because you make me feel at ease? Make it up to you next time?” then suggest another date?

Im thinking there's a thing or two I can learn by being around this girl, so instead of just nexting maybe try to salvage it a bit?

Post: #12

Thanks for making this thread Dalaran. I've been having the same exactly the problem. The advice here is very useful.

Post: #13

(05-21-2015 11:17 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Lets see, just got a feedback from the girl herself.

Goes like this:

“I didn’t like the fact that you tried to kiss me yesterday because we only knew each other 2 days ago and I thought we were going out as friends”

I call bullshit on the whole going out as friends part.

Well that may or may not be a key piece of information. It's so difficult to diagnose on the internet. It is possible, however, that her perception of what was happening and yours are divergent. Yes, you know in your mind that you intended to bang her, but it is also possible that you did not adequately impress the romantic frame onto her even if you thought you did.

From reading your post, it seems to me you are a little too "gamey." It all seems kind of too mechanical/forced. I don't get a warm emotional vibe. You actually have to like these girls, and have good times. I have no idea about Paris, but even in DC, which is ground zero for lame chicks, I rarely do excessive cocky funny simply because I don't go out with girls that require this type of interaction. Are you actually enjoying these dates, or are you going through the motions? Emotional authenticity an presence is also important.

I also disagree on the no kissing on the first date. I always go for it so they know what's up. But, on the other hand I don't go for first date bangs usually. If you do, then that advice is likely more valid.

Post: #14

I notice you said your game material is coming from Mystery. A lot of that stuff is good but out dated. Have you read something more recent like Bang?

Post: #15

(05-21-2015 11:17 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Lets see, just got a feedback from the girl herself.

Goes like this:

“I didn’t like the fact that you tried to kiss me yesterday because we only knew each other 2 days ago and I thought we were going out as friends”

I call bullshit on the whole going out as friends part. I chalk this up to moving too fast compared to the comfort level of the girl. Or I didn’t create enough sexual tension and activated her ASD. This is more about bad calibration rather than her not being attracted.

Still, this is actually good. First time a girl calls me out instead of just going radio silence, this means that she actually is somewhat invested in the interaction. Maybe worth a salvage?

What do you guys say about a response? Do I acknowledge her problem or just brush it off?

Im thinking along this line:

“Oh sorry I didn’t mean to make you comfortable. It just happened I didn’t even think about it, maybe because you make me feel at ease? Make it up to you next time?” then suggest another date?

Im thinking there's a thing or two I can learn by being around this girl, so instead of just nexting maybe try to salvage it a bit?

How do you meet this girl ?

Do you meet all the girls you date the same way ? I mean day game, social circle, internet.

I always calibrate my game according to how I met them.

Post: #16

Can you pls give a few examples? I don't understand.

Post: #17

(05-21-2015 11:17 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  “Oh sorry I didn’t mean to make you comfortable. It just happened I didn’t even think about it, maybe because you make me feel at ease? Make it up to you next time?” then suggest another date?

I think this is better

Didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable. Good salsa dancing is my kryptonite When I feel something I just act.

As a personal rule I rarely if ever explicitly say sorry, as this is a beta trigger word that validates her frame. Saying you didn't mean to make her feel uncomfortable is good because you're showing you have empathy and actually give a shit about her feelings without saying that her frame is valid. I also put the word feel in because it reinforces that her discomfort is her subjective state and feel is just a good buzzword for women. Then an implied compliment about how she turned you on and not just because of her looks but her skills which women tend to appreciate. And finally basically saying you're a man of action.

Then later.

Me and some people are hitting up Bar X this weekend come out, bring your friends and I'll make it up to you.

She's surely already told her friends about the guy who she went out with "as friends" that tried to kiss her. So when she mentions this invitation to them they may be intrigued to meet you / want to know if you have cute friends.

Honestly you're sort of dead in the water but if this works, I would spend ample time talking to her friends and run a little jealousy game. The best part is you have total plausible deniability since you're allegedly in the "friendzone."

Post: #18

Agree, I hate saying sorry myself, so I spin this:

"You were so feminine I felt so at ease, it just happened by itself, so its your fault Didnt mean to make you uncomfortable. Make it up to you next time?"

She didnt buy it and reply with some lets be friend shit.

Sending a "just be friend" after going out with a guy who's clearly demonstrated his interest in a masculine way, is very lame and reeks of attention whoring.

If she was actually interested from the start, she would tell me to slow down instead of saying " be friends" and shit.

Just told her " too bad we were really kicking it off but Im not your clown. Farewell"

It might also be because I didnt screen carefully.

These days I just see a girl that pleases my eye, I go for it. A bit banter for sure, but I didnt screen hard enough before asking them out on date.

And since Im usually able to make a good first impression, its very likely that Im getting a lot of maybe girls on dates and not yes girls.

This, I think, its a waste of time unless you are very experienced. Converting maybe girls is arduous even for Roosh. He sometimes have to spend the entire night to get the girl he wants. Theres no point for me to play that game, yet.

I need to work on better screening and everything else that has been said here. If this game works for me in the past, theres a reason for it and I need to play to the strength of my game instead of just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Post: #19

(05-21-2015 04:26 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  It might also be because I didnt screen carefully.

These days I just see a girl that pleases my eye, I go for it. A bit banter for sure, but I didnt screen hard enough before asking them out on date.

And since Im usually able to make a good first impression, its very likely that Im getting a lot of maybe girls on dates and not yes girls.

I feel you, same shit has just started happening to me. I'm going to work on screening but I'm not exactly sure how to go about it.

Only thing I can think is physically escalate quicker and if they aren't game next them.

Post: #20

Youŕe Vietnamese right?

Ive used this: ¨its rude not to try kissing a beautiful girl in my culture¨ then tell her to hang out again next, youĺl make it up to her.

Dont even hint at apologising.

Post: #21

(05-22-2015 09:00 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Youŕe Vietnamese right?

Ive used this: ¨its rude not to try kissing a beautiful girl in my culture¨ then tell her to hang out again next, youĺl make it up to her.

Dont even hint at apologising.

Nice find playing the culture card!

I would cut out the beautiful though. Me trying to kiss her is compliment enough, she doesnt deserve anything more.

I was writing the reply off the top of my head. I never apologized to girl, dont know why I put sorry in there.

I"ll have to try this trick this weekend.