Post: #1

I'm really not sure what to think about this one, not because it's about 70 year old people having sex, but because of the issue of consent.

Quote:A husband in his seventies is on trial for sexual abuse and could face up to 10 years in jail for having sexual intercourse with his wife, who suffered from Alzheimer's disease.

A US jury will have to decide whether Donna Lou Rayhons, who died last year, was mentally capable of consenting to sex with her husband, Henry, in a case being closely watched by doctors and dementia charities.

Mr Rayhons, 78, a farmer and prominent Iowa state politician, met his wife singing in a church choir after both had been widowed. They married in 2007; she joined him while he conducted business at the state capitol and they spent their time off beekeeping.

A few years into the marriage, Mrs Rayhons was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and her condition deteriorated rapidly, but the couple continued to have conjugal relations.

Early last year, at the age of 78, she was moved into the Concord Care Center, a nursing home two miles from where she lived with her husband in Garner, Iowa.

In May, her husband was told that the nursing home had concluded that Mrs Rayhons was not able to consent to sex.

At the behest of one of her daughters from a previous marriage, who had concerns, Mrs Rayhons was moved from a private room to a shared one on May 23. That night her room-mate pressed an alarm and told staff that Mr Rayhons had entered the room and pulled over a curtain, and she heard suspicious noises. The woman said: "I'm not stupid. I know what was going on."

Nursing home staff called police and Mrs Rayhons was taken to hospital but no signs of abuse were found. Prosecutors said they later found DNA evidence that sex had taken place.

Mr Rayhons's visits to his wife were limited and he last saw her on August 7. His final words to her were: "Love you honey." She died the following day and he was arrested a week later.

The Republican withdrew from a re-election race for the Iowa House of representatives. As the trial opened last week, prosecutors outlined how bad Mrs Rayhons's condition had become. She had been found washing her hands in dirty lavatory water, could not remember how to eat a sandwich and believed her first husband was still alive.

Dr John Brady, medical director of the nursing home, told the jury that if she responded positively to hugs and affection from her husband, it was a "primal response" not an "informed decision". He said Mrs Rayhons had scored zero on a standard test for Alzheimer's when a score below eight counted as severe impairment. Other staff described her as being "in her own little world".

Joel Yunek, defending, told the court Mr Rayhons had engaged in intercourse with his wife, but not on May 23. He said on that night Mr Rayhons had prayed with his wife. Mr Yunek said: "She was the love of his life. For him, it was kind of an Indian summer."

A husband in his seventies is on trial for sexual abuse and could face up to 10 years in jail for having sexual intercourse with his wife, who suffered from Alzheimer's disease.

In an interview last year, Mr Rayhons told Bloomberg: "We just loved being together. She was always a very well-dressed lady, which I admired. She liked high-heeled shoes." He added: "My wife just died and you're charged with something like this because you prayed by her bed. It hurts. It really hurts."

His family called the sex abuse charges "illogical and unnatural". Elizabeth Edgerly, a clinical psychologist with the Alzheimer's Association, said: "Is the person capable of saying no if they don't want to do something? That's one of the biggest pieces. For most people with dementia, even long into the disease, they take comfort in being with people who love them."

This is what we know about consent:

1. Consent can not be granted if the person is underage (even if the age of 18 as it is in most US states seems high).
2. Consent can not be granted if the person is mentally retarded.
3. Consent can not be granted if the person is incapacitated by alcohol or other drugs.
   

Everyone here will agree on the above examples - there is nobody here banging children, retards or black out drunk girls.

This guy got married while they were both elderly, she developed Alzeimer's, and he banged his enthusiastically consenting loving wife towards the end.

Personally, if my wife had forgotten how to eat a sandwich, our sex life would be over. But is what he did ethically wrong?

Quote:A few years into the marriage, Mrs Rayhons was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and her condition deteriorated rapidly, but the couple continued to have conjugal relations.

In May, her husband was told that the nursing home had concluded that Mrs Rayhons was not able to consent to sex.

It doesn't seem right that nursing home employees can tell a married couple that they are no longer able to have consensual sex.

Post: #2

It's kind of weird he's having sex with someone who probably isn't all there, but it's his wife who he's been fucking for years so what exactly is the legal problem here?

Marriage is getting to be ridiculously absurd and the more the law gets involved in it, the more stupid and worthless it becomes.

We already have pre-nup contracts because of bullshit laws and absurd rulings. In the future you'll need a signed contract giving you lifetime positive consent or else you'll face rape charges. Or would such a thing become null and void if some asshole activist prosecutor and judge finds some reason to retroactively invalidate it?

Post: #3

well, the sjws have found their perfect test case. they must be creaming their jeans over the possibility of actually convicting a man for having sex with his wife.

their victory over traditional family institutions will be complete if he's convicted.

Post: #4

Classic case of prosecutorial overreach and the effort to expand the definition of rape into new areas like conscious voluntary intoxication.

One way to prevent this is marrying someone a lot younger than you, so it's you that has Alzheimer's.

Post: #5

(04-15-2015 12:15 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  It's kind of weird he's having sex with someone who probably isn't all there, but it's his wife who he's been fucking for years so what exactly is the legal problem here?

Marriage is getting to be ridiculously absurd and the more the law gets involved in it, the more stupid and worthless it becomes.

We already have pre-nup contracts because of bullshit laws and absurd rulings. In the future you'll need a signed contract giving you lifetime positive consent or else you'll face rape charges. Or would such a thing become null and void if some asshole activist prosecutor and judge finds some reason to retroactively invalidate it?

Alzheimers is a really weird disease. If you think of it as a disk drive, its more like just new data that can't be written...because this woman only had short term life experience with the care staff its likely that she was alot worse with them than with her husband that had more permanent history written on her memory.

I'd be curious about how this all sorts out, like did the staff have some sort of power of attorney and/or did the husband consent to the designation that 'she could not consent to sex' at some point, as part of another diagnosis and shot himself in the foot that way.

Sidenote, for elder care. Its 3 to 5k PER MONTH for bullshit care that is like a jail. Lets say they live for 6 years in there...thats $288,000 dollars. If your parents have been good to you, do them a favor and just get them in home care in your own home, an apartment next to you, or build an addition on and get them in home care that YOU keep an eye on.

Post: #6

Option 2 is he decides that if they can't bang he goes and plays the field.

what fuck else was he supposed to do?

Post: #7

(04-15-2015 01:19 PM)Sonoma Wrote:  Option 2 is he decides that if they can't bang he goes and plays the field.

what fuck else was he supposed to do?

He is 78. What kind of field will any of us be playing when we are almost octogenarians?

Post: #8

50 year old bitches. Where I live it's not uncommon to see single yuppie older women and even older, yuppie men bagging them

Post: #9

Man, just when you think you hit bottom, someone digs a little deeper.

Post: #10

(04-15-2015 01:16 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 12:15 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  It's kind of weird he's having sex with someone who probably isn't all there, but it's his wife who he's been fucking for years so what exactly is the legal problem here?

Marriage is getting to be ridiculously absurd and the more the law gets involved in it, the more stupid and worthless it becomes.

We already have pre-nup contracts because of bullshit laws and absurd rulings. In the future you'll need a signed contract giving you lifetime positive consent or else you'll face rape charges. Or would such a thing become null and void if some asshole activist prosecutor and judge finds some reason to retroactively invalidate it?

Alzheimers is a really weird disease. If you think of it as a disk drive, its more like just new data that can't be written...because this woman only had short term life experience with the care staff its likely that she was alot worse with them than with her husband that had more permanent history written on her memory.

I'd be curious about how this all sorts out, like did the staff have some sort of power of attorney and/or did the husband consent to the designation that 'she could not consent to sex' at some point, as part of another diagnosis and shot himself in the foot that way.

Sidenote, for elder care. Its 3 to 5k PER MONTH for bullshit care that is like a jail. Lets say they live for 6 years in there...thats $288,000 dollars. If your parents have been good to you, do them a favor and just get them in home care in your own home, an apartment next to you, or build an addition on and get them in home care that YOU keep an eye on.

The bad disc drive is an excellent analogy.

My ex's uncle had it and could not remember anything from moment to moment...but could recount in detail what he was doing when he was playing in a 1930s big band.

If these two were having sex, I wonder if the woman wasn't mentally stuck back in 1942, thinking they were lovebirds again and getting romantic with him. Maybe he was responding.

That said, it's disturbing to think that the state has become so powerful that it's now telling spouses when they can and can't have sex.

Of course when the roles are reversed, the state declines to get involved. There are a lot of cases of men fathering children after they've died because the wife (or man's parents!) extracted sperm from the man when he was in a vegetative or dying state.

If this man is found guilty of sexual abuse, that law should also apply to family members who extract sperm from dying or mentally unsound men who can't consent.

(PS: The way they extract the sperm is by arousing the unconscious man and giving him a hand job. How is that ethical? And what about the kids who are born that way? How to you explain that one to little Becky or Billy?)

Post: #11

Pervy Old Man Rapes Wife to Death! Details at 10:00!!


So first your wife dies after a long battle with Alzheimer's, then you get sent to jail for rape? What a time to be alive.

Post: #12

Not Guilty verdict reached in this despicable case of prosecutorial overreach.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/23/health....html?_r=0

I hope this 78 year old dude has some Viagra at the ready for a well earned celebration.

Now, how many more ways will out of control prosecutors and sinister Year Zero "consent" fetishists find to conjure nonsense "rapes" and "sexual assaults" out of thin air at a time of unprecedented safety and personal security for women?

Post: #13

From the linked article:

Quote:“We did not do any of that stuff that day,” Mr. Rayhons testified, according to local news media reports. “We just didn’t.”

But he said that on other occasions, “Donna and I would ‘play.’ She would reach in my pants and fondle me sometimes.”

He told the prosecutor, “I always assumed that if somebody asks for something, they have the capacity” to consent.

Quote:The case appeared to reflect tension between Mr. Rayhons and two of his wife’s adult daughters, who made the decision to place her in the nursing home, Concord Care Center. One of the daughters was Mrs. Rayhons’s health proxy and later successfully petitioned to become her legal guardian.

What a fucking cockblock. Get over it already. She married somebody new.

Quote:On the stand, Mr. Rayhons said he recalled a brief instruction to limit sexual activity with his wife made during a conference at the nursing home on May 15, when staff members presented him and other family members with a one-page “care plan.”

In a notation at the bottom, a doctor had noted that he felt Mrs. Rayhons was unable to consent to such activity.

At the trial, Mr. Rayhons testified that he considered “sexual activity” to be intercourse.

Thanks, Doctor. I wonder who came up with the idea for including this in the "care plan." Was it the doctor or the daughter who thought old people having sex is "creepy."

If I ever get married, my wife is going to have a Health Care Proxy which explicitly consents to any and all sexual conduct of my desires in the event that she is incapacitated. That would make an interesting case.

Post: #14

Here is a comment posted on the NY Times article. It is worth reading as a real example of what we are up against. This is how these people think, and this is the sort of thinking they would love to enforce under penalty of death if they could.

Quote:Anne Thor
Seattle 31 minutes ago

How disturbing.

I guess a majority of people really believe, and think it is OK, for a husband to have sex with his wife whenever she wants.

The sexual desire of an adult man towards a woman who is incapable of giving consent is extremely disturbing to me. There is no way for such a patient to consent to sex, and I very highly doubt her desire for it. With no short term memory or ability to self express, why would it be the patients burden to later bring up that they were taken advantage of? That is an impossible task for an Alzheimer's patient, which probably makes them easy to abuse.

It is disturbing that he put his own (in my opinion perverse) sexual desire over the wishes of his wife's children and the staff who were taking care of her.

This verdict is disgusting and it really goes to show the state of women's rights in this country.

As to the women who want to legally sign away their ability to refuse sex from their husband should they become ill, I really don't have words for that. I wish women would value themselves a bit more.

Post: #15

Quote:This is what we know about consent:
1.Consent can not be granted if the person is underage (even if the age of 18 as it is in most US states seems high).
2.Consent can not be granted if the person is mentally retarded.
3.Consent can not be granted if the person is incapacitated by alcohol or other drugs.


Everyone here will agree on the above examples - there is nobody here banging children, retards or black out drunk girls.

Not to derail the thread too much but this isn't actually true.

1. Underage people can consent to sex. It is simply illegal for a person over the age of consent to engage with sex with someone under the age of consent. Taking pictures/videos, possessing pictures/videos, or distributing pictures/videos of sex acts, even if they are legal, of people under the age of 18 (because it is a federal law and not a state law like age of consent laws or marriage laws) is illegal.

This actually brings up some interesting cases when you look into it. In my state and most states, an older man or woman, above the age of consent, can marry some one under the age of consent as long as they are over the age of marriage, which I think is 15 if the person is older than 18 (my states age of consent) but as young as 12 I think if the other person is also under the age of consent as long as their parents or guardians sign off on it. I actually knew a couple in high school that had been together since middle school and they both got married after her first kid at 16 while they were both under the age of consent.

Quick Edit: The parent has to sign off in both cases. So, if one of you guys wanted to marry a girl under the age of consent but above the age of marriage then you would have to get her parents permission. Also, I am not sure how it works if the underage person in an emancipated minor. Also, there are other rules that complicate it like how you can't take a under age girl across state lines for the purpose of marriage which seems kinda fucked up in some ways..

I could marry some fine 16 year old as long as her parents signed a waver and it would be legal for me to bang her seven ways from sunday. But, without the marriage license and even with the parents permission it would be illegal but on the other hand if I married her we could have sex but it would be illegal for me us to make a sex video or send racy texts/pics because, even though married it would be engaging in child porn. This is why every now and then some underage kids, and while rare sometimes it is the girl who sent it, can be brought up on child porn charges for sexting.

Also, most states have what are called Romeo and Juliet laws which usually state that there can't be more than I think two years difference between teens if one is over 18 and the other is under 18.

However, the fact is that it is not illegal for people under the age of consent to engage in sex with others under the age of consent. At least that is my understanding but I am not a lawyer so there is that.

This is why all the teen moms and their baby daddies don't end up in jail.


Consent laws are a really confusing and fucked up thing. Part of me understand the need to protect minors but at the same time we have a completely different set of laws to protect 8 year olds and children and we aren't talking about 8 - 10 year olds most of the time.

While I don't think most teens should be having sex, especially in the 12-14 range, I knew girls who were sexually active and pursuing high school guys at 12 and they didn't look 12. There is always a fraction that seem to go through puberty years before everyone else. Hell some of these girls are getting their periods at 9 years old these days.

The other thing I wonder about is how we classify this stuff. While I don't think it is in a girls best interest to be marrying a 60 year old at 16 I do wonder if it is better for her to be getting knocked up at 16 by a 17 year old instead of a 27 year old. A guy at 27 with a 16 year old gf or wife is a much more mature guy that is capable of providing for a family compared to the 17 year old male.

Also, it seems strange that we shove all this sexual propaganda down teen girls throats and then tell them that they are mature enough and have the agency to choose abortion without telling their parents but at the same time they are too immature to know whether or not, or be held accountable for being jail bait, they are attracted to older men or to even manage or consent to different types of sex.

This is getting too long so I will not address number 3 except to say that feminist definitions of rape are not the same as legal definitions of rape....yet

2. From my understanding a mentally retarded person actually can, at least in some cases, consent to sex. Apparently it is a real problem in communities and families with mentally retarded adults because they still have the same sex desire but lack the ability to be responsible with it. In some cases it means you get retarded men who get arrested and jailed for various types of sexual harassment or assault. This ranges from flashing to groping to in some cases attempted rape.

Then you also have cases where a lot of caretakers try to get doctors to basically neuter the males and females in various ways because they still have the desire but none of the control. I remember reading about this in some ethics classes. You have cases where the retarded women are functional enough that doctors and judges won't or can't have them fixed but they end up getting pregnant constantly, especially if they are in adult living centers with other mentally retarded men. It is apparently a big problem where the staff has to basically chase them around and monitor them constantly and administer birth control regularly to keep the from fucking like rabbits and spawning like rabbits.

Post: #16

"This is what we know about consent:
Consent can not be granted if the person is underage (even if the age of 18 as it is in most US states seems high).
Consent can not be granted if the person is mentally retarded.
Consent can not be granted if the person is incapacitated by alcohol or other drugs."

This is what we know about the law:

You are free to disregard it as a juror in voting on a man's guilt.