Post: #1

This is the one of the most intense police videos I've seen:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e3_1428698048

Quote:Video from the dashboard camera of a Cottonwood Police Department cruiser showed a close-knit Idaho family that appeared nearly invulnerable to stun guns, police batons and fists during a melee in a Walmart parking lot March 21 in which one person was killed and one officer wounded by a gunshot.

Cottonwood Police Chief Jody Fanning showed the video during a news conference Friday morning and said no matter what tactics officers used, nothing appeared to deter the family of eight. The dash-cam was the only one of three that was operational that night, Fanning said.

Four officers arrived at the Walmart after employees called about one of the Boise, ID, family members pushing an employee to the ground outside one of the store's bathrooms.

The family had gathered outside their older model Chevrolet Suburban when officers arrived. The confrontation started when one of the officers said they would split up the family to talk with them about what happened inside the store, Fanning said.

But the father, 55-year-old Peter Gaver, and one of his sons stepped in and told police they wouldn't allow them to separate the family, Fanning said. Another officer approached the mother, 52-year-old Ruth Gaver, and her 11-year-old daughter when one of the brothers ran in between them.

Police Sgt. Jeremy Daniels grabbed the man and the melee was on, Fanning said.

The family utilized tactics that had to be "taught," Fanning said. For instance, they knew that punching officers on the body was futile because of their protective vests. Instead, the fought officers by grabbing at their eyes, ears and mouths and pulling hard.

They also had been taught to roll after they were shot with stun guns in order to break the wires and stop the shock, and to appear to give up by putting their hands in the air in order to get close to attack again. The family refused orders to "get on the ground" and eventually overpowered
Daniels. Two of the suspects, including Enoch Graver, battled the officer for his gun, which went off and wounded him in the leg.

Four more officers arrived and Enoch Graver, 21, was shot to death and his 18-year-old brother David Graver was shot in the abdomen.

Even with eight officers on the scene, nothing the officers tried appeared to stop the family, including the use of stun guns, pepper spray and police batons. In almost every instance, the suspects continued to fight the officers. Fanning said to four people to get one of the brothers in handcuffs and two officers to get the remaining male suspects in cuffs.

A Walmart loss prevention employee, whom Cottonwood police knew, was also key in preventing more harm being done to family members or the original four officers on the scene, Fanning said. The employee fought to protect the officers throughout the brawl.

Fanning said he was not only proud of his officers and the Walmart employee for their roles, but of the civilians who came to the aid of Daniels.

The family included the father and sons Jeremiah, 29; Nathaniel, 27; David, Enoch; a 15-year-old boy; mother Ruth Gaver, 52; and an 11-year-old girl.

All were living out of the Chevrolet Suburban and were members of a traveling band called Matthew 24 Now, a reference to a Bible verse dealing with the end of times. The band's Facebook page is rife with Biblical references.

Seven other Cottonwood police officers suffered cuts and bruises.
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e3_14286...uB6xPAC.99

Post: #2

Am i out of order by stating that the outcome would've been different if said family was of a darker complexion?

Post: #3

^ Well, I'm white and my first reaction was feeling amazed that no one was shot sooner. I've had the cops pull guns on me for way less than anything that happened in this video and it blows my mind that only two people got shot with them fighting back like that. This was very out of the ordinary and almost bizarre.

Where I come from there's no way this would have gone down as gently as it did, black or white. Or you can say it was a race thing, I guess. But given that we both find it contrary to our own experiences with police, I'm not sure how you would venture to explain why that's the case for me even though I'm not black.

Whatever your explanation for the cops not having a more extreme reaction, they are certainly not representative of your everyday pack of cops in the face of violent resistance. I suspect their numbers made them confident and brave - had it been 2 or 3 cops, bullets would have been blasting immediately - but it's hard to say for sure.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #4

(04-11-2015 10:36 AM)Kingsley Davis Wrote:  Am i out of order by stating that the outcome would've been different if said family was of a darker complexion?

No, though discharging a gun in close combat when there are several other of your guys around doesn't seem to be the smart choice, even if you have racial prejudice.

They couldn't even get their kicks straight. Look at 3:20 when one officer kicks another in the head.

Post: #5

I disagree with the report that they had some sort of 'secret police fighting techniques' They were just tough motherfuckers. There is also something superhuman about fighting alongside your family. When i was younger and I'd get into it with people alongside my brothers, we were unstoppable.

Big nuclear families are a solid threat to deal with, see "Clans" in scotland and ireland, Appalachian hillbillies, the black donnelys, Utah mormons.

I watch this video and it makes it clear to me why the government wants single mother led households, without churches, and without guns. If this was not a family, they would have either complied with separation or run for the hills every man for himself, with 1 or 2 getting apprehended.

Post: #6

(04-11-2015 10:44 AM)Roosh Wrote:  No, though discharging a gun in close combat when there are several other of your guys around doesn't seem to be the smart choice, even if you have racial prejudice.

That's a good point.

Close quarters or not, though, I'm still surprised they weren't all pulling out guns and screaming their heads off a lot sooner. Those are some very disciplined cops there. Maybe they were just taken aback that such harmless-looking people gave them a run for their money and thought they would beat them into submission a lot sooner.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #7

Wow. This is the scenario where I expect to hear a cop shooting someone but yet they first start off with pepper spray and stun guns? These guys even attack the cops and it takes a wrestling match for a gun for it to be used???

Post: #8

What an insane family...

Total religious paranoia towards the government and the police it seems.

Post: #9

This was a good substitute for family drama after watching the netflix series Bloodline.

Damn this video is intense. The fuck is with the guy who keeps telling the officer "you're being a nazi"? I also like the wal-mart employee pacing around the brawl stroking her chin until the bullets start flying.

Hate to say it but I suspect if this was a black family the bullets would have started firing much sooner and there'd be a higher body count. In any case, I'm glad we have cops that deal with these nutjobs day in and day out.

Post: #10

The local police department should be trying to recruit that loss prevention office.

Post: #11

Quote:In any case, I'm glad we have cops that deal with these nutjobs day in and day out.

We've been programmed to believe these people are "nutjobs" because they are religious and poor. But they are no more nutty than a typical student in a liberal arts university, and perhaps less so. While resisting arrest was a bad idea (and illegal), I admire how they defended each other with such force, in spite of the danger presented to them individually. They fought for their unit without apparent care to themselves, almost like a platoon of soldiers. Who would you defend with your life against someone who has a gun? That's a question we can ask ourselves.

I'm guessing that their father taught them (rightly) to mistrust the state and never to let them "split us up." So when the police said "let's separate them up and talk to them," their fathers words were coming true and they entered a fight or flight response that seems extreme and out of proportion to us, but completely logical to their concept of family and staying together.

Post: #12

(04-11-2015 10:55 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:In any case, I'm glad we have cops that deal with these nutjobs day in and day out.

We've been programmed to believe these people are "nutjobs" because they are religious and poor. But they are no more nutty than a typical student in a liberal arts university, and perhaps less so. While resisting arrest was a bad idea (and illegal), I admire how they defended each other with such force, in spite of the danger presented to them individually. They fought for their unit without apparent care to themselves, almost like a platoon of soldiers. Who would you defend with your life against someone who has a gun? That's a question we can ask ourselves.

I'm guessing that their father taught them (rightly) to mistrust the state and never to let them "split us up." So when the police said "let's separate them up and talk to them," their fathers words were coming true and they entered a fight or flight response that seems extreme and out of proportion to us, but completely logical to their concept of family and staying together.

Yeah, a lot of religious people believe that they have no moral obligation to follow the law of a man-made government. And I can relate to that thinking, myself - I agree with a lot of what you're saying. There are actually a lot of families from the mountains I come from who I could see having a melee like this with the cops.

That said, they should have thought about self-preservation regardless of their beliefs. They could have used some common sense and talked themselves out of this situation very easily, whether they agree with the law or not, or walked away with one person getting very minor charges (maybe even failing to show up to court if they didn't believe they were obligated to the law). The consequences for what happened (an employee being pushed down) were so slim that it was not worth putting their lives on the line and escalating the situation to such a degree.

I also respect their tenacity, and in some situations it would not seem out of proportion to me, but they fought the wrong battle here. From a certain perspective, you could also say this man was responsible for what happened simply because he did not teach his family to temper the response to the situation at hand, and now they are suffering because of that mistake.

That is irresponsible leadership.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #13

Quote:Cottonwood is a city in Yavapai County, Arizona, United States. According to the 2010 census, the population of the city is 11,265

Those 8 guys might legitimately be 1/2 of the city's police force. Think if this thing would have gone even further.

Post: #14

This is usually how a fight between police officers and suspects would go down in the U.K; in fact this sort of scenario happens most weekends in your standard city/town centre around midnight.

Post: #15

(04-11-2015 11:05 AM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

Quote:Cottonwood is a city in Yavapai County, Arizona, United States. According to the 2010 census, the population of the city is 11,265

Those 8 guys might legitimately be 1/2 of the city's police force. Think if this thing would have gone even further.

That may explain the hesitance to shoot. A city environment and the cops would probably have been a bit more trigger happy. Hell, most of those cops have probably had a gun in their hands their entire life and therefore respect its power a lot more.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #16

Quote:They could have used some common sense and talked themselves out of this situation very easily, whether they agree with the law or not, or walked away with one person getting very minor charges (maybe even failing to show up to court if they didn't believe they were responsible for going to jail).

I agree with you on this point, but we have the benefit of hindsight in knowing how the event turned out while sitting in comfort while reviewing the scene in safety, free of any emotion. The family could have used better training, but most humans simply don't respond logically when threatened and instead have emotional reactions of self-preservation that later on can be concluded as foolish (i.e. they weren't really in danger).

Post: #17

Yeah, very true. I can also see how one member of the family might overreact and then the violence starts and everyone feels obligated to back the members of their group. And it escalates from there. Not too uncommon as far as human behavior goes. All it takes is one person to push the envelope and suddenly everyone is over the edge.

I will say that I've been in a situation like this before, though, so while I'm just speaking from the safety of my computer, as you say, that'd doesn't mean I can't relate to the emotion in such a situation. I remember one time my best friend being tasered and beaten with billy clubs and he wouldn't stop fighting back. My older brother was trying to jump in to attack the cops but I had the presence of mind to grab him in a full nelson and wrap my legs around him, holding him on the ground while the cops taunted us and invited us to come at them - my brother squirming and calling me a piece of shit and telling the cops he was going to kill them.

My friend got banged up pretty good, but had I not done that, I believe bullets would have flew that night (the force is pretty trigger happy in the small city we were in and they've killed quite a few people). Instead we ended up in the drunk tank with welts all over our bodies and our eyes full of pepper. One of us, whose asshole behavior started it all and who thought it was a good idea to get drunk and fight cops, pretty banged up with a couple black eyes, a lot of bruises, a split chin, and a tooth through lower lip. But we all went home alive and laughed it off.

I didn't fail to fight back out of some respect for the cops - I failed to fight back because I didn't want to see anyone die that night.

So there is a possibility of being level-headed in these situations. I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done - and it could have been done in this particular situation far before any violence began. Splitting people up to talk to them about an altercation is not exactly an assault on the family, nor had they done anything too big, so their reaction was very unwarranted. And we were staggering drunk in our near-melee - these people were sober for all we know.

But I do get what you're saying. When emotions are high, things can stagger off any sensical balance pretty fast.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #18

This reminds me of the Ruby Ridge story where the FBI stormed an Idaho family's property and murdered this guy's wife and son, no wonder the don't trust law enforcement there:

Post: #19

Post: #20

(04-11-2015 11:01 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I also respect their tenacity, and in some situations it would not seem out of proportion to me, but they fought the wrong battle here. From a certain perspective, you could also say this man was responsible for what happened simply because he did not teach his family to dial the response to the situation at hand, and now they are suffering because of that mistake.

That is irresponsible leadership.

Yeah this is exactly what I was thinking.
The whole video is just... bizarre.

Edit.. yeah and this

Quote:but I had the presence of mind to grab him in a full nelson and wrap my legs around him, holding him on the ground while the cops taunted us and invited us to come at them - my brother squirming and calling me a piece of shit and telling the cops he was going to kill them.

It would be fair to assume that the younger ones may have been hot blooded and uncalibrated, but at one point the father walks around an officer repeatedly saying "You're hitting children can you see that?" ... Most 50 year old men I know of would stop it from escalating that far to be honest.
Even after the first provocation and the family's retaliation the father could and should have gone in and stopped it.

There's diplomacy, there's basic common sense, and then there's this... Im still really confused by the reaction and absolutely cannot relate to it

Post: #21

(04-11-2015 10:55 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:In any case, I'm glad we have cops that deal with these nutjobs day in and day out.

We've been programmed to believe these people are "nutjobs" because they are religious and poor. But they are no more nutty than a typical student in a liberal arts university, and perhaps less so. While resisting arrest was a bad idea (and illegal), I admire how they defended each other with such force, in spite of the danger presented to them individually. They fought for their unit without apparent care to themselves, almost like a platoon of soldiers. Who would you defend with your life against someone who has a gun? That's a question we can ask ourselves.

I'm guessing that their father taught them (rightly) to mistrust the state and never to let them "split us up." So when the police said "let's separate them up and talk to them," their fathers words were coming true and they entered a fight or flight response that seems extreme and out of proportion to us, but completely logical to their concept of family and staying together.

Cops are not being brainwashed to a whole other level. It looks like something out of the playbook from Russia or N. Korea. Watch the video and the real life feel of the scenarios. Police are being trained not think or question what is behind that door other than a bunch of gun toting religious zealots. There will be a lot more Ruby Ridge incidents in upcoming years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-w...arization/

Post: #22

I guess this is a good police video. They really did try to subdue them ever way they could. They incurred a risk on their own lives by not shooting them immediately until there was an immediate threat on their life. I just wish all police officers gave this kind of great treatment.

I don't think this would ever be normal in America, but it is much better than what I would like to be the norm.

Post: #23

It looks like something from Russia....not from the USA. Bizarre future coming

Post: #24

(04-11-2015 10:55 AM)Roosh Wrote:  We've been programmed to believe these people are "nutjobs" because they are religious and poor. But they are no more nutty than a typical student in a liberal arts university, and perhaps less so. While resisting arrest was a bad idea (and illegal), I admire how they defended each other with such force, in spite of the danger presented to them individually. They fought for their unit without apparent care to themselves, almost like a platoon of soldiers. Who would you defend with your life against someone who has a gun? That's a question we can ask ourselves.

I'm guessing that their father taught them (rightly) to mistrust the state and never to let them "split us up." So when the police said "let's separate them up and talk to them," their fathers words were coming true and they entered a fight or flight response that seems extreme and out of proportion to us, but completely logical to their concept of family and staying together.

I don't think of them as nutjobs because they're religious and poor, but because they decided to get into a brawl with the police in 2015.

People who think it's a good idea to do that are usually nutjobs.

There is perhaps something admirable about their actions but in general people who fight the police are stupid. The police will fucking kill you. It's not right, but it's the way it is. These people put their own lives and the lives of their family in danger by initiating violence with the police. That, to me, is nutty behavior.

Post: #25

That guy at the beginning has a killer jaw got rocked at least 6 times but no fucks giving by him