Post: #1

I just finished watching it, and it was the most gripping documentary I have ever seen. Here is the trailer for it:





A few observations I have about it:

• Their events are like if Nazi rallies were produced by Hollywood
• The amount of savage beatings and bullying inflicted on members is abominable
• The constant surveillance on ex-members who speak out against the group is terrifying
• I choked up a bit at the end when an ex-member described when her daughter "disconnected" from her, and how she will never see her again for the crime of refusing to "disconnect" from her son
• Tom Cruise is a creepy and psychotic pawn
• John Travolta is a slave held with the threat of exposing his every dark secret
• Their actual beliefs, first exposed to me and many others by South Park, are complete lunacy
• They are currently worth billions of dollars and have real estate all over the globe
• They took on the IRS and won when they owed a billion dollars in taxes.
• Did you catch that? THEY TOOK ON THE IRS AND WON WHEN THEY OWED A BILLION DOLLARS IN TAXES.
  

It blows my mind to acknowledge that such an insidious cult exists in the information age. The men and women who spoke out against the Church are risking a lot with their honesty, I would encourage you to watch it and become informed about all of the real harm that they cause every day.

Post: #2

I don't get the hate for Scientology. Have they killed anyone? Do they secretly molest little kids? Do they pose any kind of threat to traditional society and order? Probably not. Oh, but their BELIEFS are crazy!! Yea, well I can think of another religion with crazy ideas that does pose a threat to Western society. Too bad Alex Gibney didn't use his filmmaking skills to do an exposé on that.

However, will check out the doc for the entertainment value. Thanks for the heads up.

Post: #3

(04-02-2015 12:41 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  I don't get the hate for Scientology. Do they pose any kind of threat to traditional society and order?

They are being investigated by the FBI for human trafficking.

Post: #4

(04-02-2015 12:41 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  I don't get the hate for Scientology. Have they killed anyone? Do they secretly molest little kids? Do they pose any kind of threat to traditional society and order?
However, will check out the doc for the entertainment value. Thanks for the heads up.

I would be willing to bet there reach extends farther than you and I are comfortable to admit.

I've read and looked into what Hubbard did with his early followers. There beliefs aren't as crazy as one would seem in comparison to what you'd read from the Abramaic and other eastern religious beliefs.

If you start combining creation myths from all over the world into one, they all start painting a strikingly similar picture that starts to fill in a lot of gaps and questions. Of course every religion has a different name for each phenomena.

Post: #5

I just finished watching this.

Besides the points you mentioned, some other facts I wasn't aware of:

-L. Rob Hubbard, shortly after his service in WW2, wrote to Veteran's Administration seeking psychiatric help for anxiety and depression

-Lawrence Wright (author of the book on which the documentary is based) speculates that Hubbard wrote Dianetics in part as a way to cope with his own mental issues

-It is completely acceptable for members to outright lie about scientology if it protects the organization

-Auditing is essentially a confessional, but it is recorded and the auditor takes extensive notes. This is so that they can blackmail the person later

-Members of the Sea Org (scientology clergy) signed a contract pledging their service for one billion years

-Members are recruited and are told at first that scientology is a self-help organization, a cure for their ills. Only later (and after paying several hundred thousand dollars) do they get to learn the nutty stuff, Xenu, galactic confederacy, etc.

-Nicole Kidman was wiretapped by scientology as part of an effort to break up her relationship with Tom Cruise

-The stuff about Travolta was odd. He seems to be afraid that the church will expose his secrets but it's assumed he's been a repressed homosexual by the public anyway. Doesn't have much to lose in that sense.

-On Amazon, Dianetics is currently sold out. Likely has to do with this documentary.

Post: #6

(04-02-2015 12:34 PM)Honorable Man Wrote:  A few observations I have about it:

• Their events are like if Nazi rallies were produced by Hollywood
• The amount of savage beatings and bullying inflicted on members is abominable
• The constant surveillance on ex-members who speak out against the group is terrifying
• I choked up a bit at the end when an ex-member described when her daughter "disconnected" from her, and how she will never see her again for the crime of refusing to "disconnect" from her son
• Tom Cruise is a creepy and psychotic pawn
• John Travolta is a slave held with the threat of exposing his every dark secret
• Their actual beliefs, first exposed to me and many others by South Park, are complete lunacy
• They are currently worth billions of dollars and have real estate all over the globe
• They took on the IRS and won when they owed a billion dollars in taxes.
• Did you catch that? THEY TOOK ON THE IRS AND WON WHEN THEY OWED A BILLION DOLLARS IN TAXES.
  

I haven't seen the documentary but take any doc with a grain of salt as they are always sensationalist and biased.

I have been reading a bit on their beliefs, etc and wikipedia though and don't find them any more "weird" or "extraordinary" than traditional religious beliefs. All religions take an enormous leap outside of the rationale - that's the nature of faith and religion. Not saying it's irrational, but religion is religion and by its nature isn't rationale.

As far as the bullet points the same can be said for any religion.

[*]Their events are like if Nazi rallies were produced by Hollywood
Sort of like major Christian televangelist events?

[*]The amount of savage beatings and bullying inflicted on members is abominable
Caste and punishment are common in many religious institutions. People in power are prone to abuse those underneath them (Catholic clergy molesting boys in Sunday school...)

[*]Tom Cruise is a creepy and psychotic pawn
[*]John Travolta is a slave held with the threat of exposing his every dark secret
And jihadists are not pawns?

[*]They are currently worth billions of dollars and have real estate all over the globe
[*]They took on the IRS and won when they owed a billion dollars in taxes.
[*]Did you catch that? THEY TOOK ON THE IRS AND WON WHEN THEY OWED A BILLION DOLLARS IN TAXES.
Why is this a big deal? Churches are exempt from all taxes as nonprofits. Personally, I don't think churches should be exempt from taxes, but if Scientologists identifies as a church and has enough similarities with a regular church, why should they NOT be tax exempt?

I'm not starting an argument here, but everything in all religions defies rationale logic and the weird beliefs of Scientology are on par with the weird beliefs in all other religions...just the other religions have the benefit of having been established 1500+ years.

Post: #7

(04-02-2015 02:00 PM)Lucky Wrote:  -L. Rob Hubbard, shortly after his service in WW2, wrote to Veteran's Administration seeking psychiatric help for anxiety and depression

-Lawrence Wright (author of the book on which the documentary is based) speculates that Hubbard wrote Dianetics in part as a way to cope with his own mental issues

Every prophet was prone to psychiatric episodes. That explains their "visions" and communication with God whether it was Muhammad, Ekhart, etc.

Quote:-It is completely acceptable for members to outright lie about scientology if it protects the organization

Honestly, which organization doesn't lie to protect itself? Every major corporation does, every government does, every military does, every Church does.

Post: #8

Yes, every religion is based on delusion.

What makes scientology unique is that it is modern and that it has gained so much power and wealth in a short amount of time.

Most people are unsettled by the fact that today something like this can exist and collect seemingly normal followers.

Post: #9

(04-02-2015 01:07 PM)Honorable Man Wrote:  

(04-02-2015 12:41 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  I don't get the hate for Scientology. Do they pose any kind of threat to traditional society and order?

They are being investigated by the FBI for human trafficking.

Maybe it's the result of being more skeptical since I've gotten older, but now everytime I hear "sex trafficking" and "human trafficking" I am sure someone is pulling my ding-dong.

That being said, there probably are legitimate criticisms of Scientology and its members. The likeliest explanation is that it's just a giant ponzi scheme.

Post: #10

Guys, it's not a valid debate tactic to say "well, what they do is no big deal, look at religion X!".

A few anecdotes:

(04-02-2015 02:00 PM)Lucky Wrote:  -Auditing is essentially a confessional, but it is recorded and the auditor takes extensive notes. This is so that they can blackmail the person later

When I lived in LA I knew a guy who had been involved in Scientology and finally extricated himself. He told me one of the tactics is to have you sit facing the auditor, knees almost touching, staring each other in the eyes, and the auditor will say the most awful shit, probing for the weakness where you crack. It's basically brute force breaking into someone's psyche.

He told me it took years to get fully extricated from Scientology. That's a big difference between a cult and any other organization. You want to quit your job? No biggie. You want to quit a cult? You've got a big problem.

Quote:-Members are recruited and are told at first that scientology is a self-help organization, a cure for their ills. Only later (and after paying several hundred thousand dollars) do they get to learn the nutty stuff, Xenu, galactic confederacy, etc.

Another guy I knew got sucked into a conversation while walking down Hollywood Blvd. Ended up in a room with this guy, signed up for several hundred dollars worth of classes, then came to his senses a few hours later. Luckily the CC company was willing to nix the charges. He told me that the Scientologists were the most unbelievable salesmen you'd ever meet. He also said he was hounded by phone calls for months afterwards asking why he cancelled his classes.

I had a roommate who was casually interested in Scientology and I read about half of his copy of Dianetics. It's the kind of book that superfically makes sense, in many places you just say "well, duh!". The basic message as I recall was "people make mistakes because they're working with incorrect information". But the overall framework of the "church" I believe is extremely manipulative. I remember the Scientologists would line up every morning outside their building on Hollywood Blvd, boarding buses for who knows where. It was depressing. All these faces with flat expressions, looking like they were going nowhere. I dislike the word "creepy" but that's the best description I can give. LA is full of weird-ass cults (nom menge renge kyo, The Forum, etc.) but Scientology distinguishes itself in its size and power.

Post: #11

Some modern religions are really odd-- the old ones are too, but they've had time to refine their marketing tech so they can collect while not alienating too many people and causing blowback.

Islam is in the transitional stage, something like the Catholic church was at the point they were murdering people simply for translating the bible into English thus removing the Church's monopoly on disseminating the info in it . I think it also is more malevolent and stupid, but I'm just trying to point out that all organizations try to accumulate power and money, or they cease to exist.

Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, had an actual rap sheet as a con man-- he was a convicted crook. In fabulous style he used his trials to compare himself with Christ.
And almost illiterate. And it is hilariously ironic that Mormons are pretty upright clean-living people.


http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/smith-conman.htm

Here's some research back from 1831 when people were already writing about him as a traveling con man.

As it turns out, the information required does occur in Abner Cole's Reflector article -- it just comes a couple of lines earlier in the report cited by Persuitte: where Cole says:

"It is well known that Jo Smith never pretended to have any communion with angels, until a long period after the pretended finding of his book, and that the juggling of himself or father, went no further than the pretended faculty of seeing wonders in a "peep stone," and the occasional interview with the spirit, supposed to have the custody of hidden treasures."
Palmyra Reflector, Feb. 18, 1831

So, there it is -- a reference to the young Joseph Smith, Jr. being "well known" in the Palmyra area for "juggling," in his assertions to a supernatural remote-viewing "faculty" and in his pretensions to "the occasional interview" with a treasure-guarding "spirit."

Hubbard was a very smart guy who openly said to someone as I remember "If you REALLY want to make money start a religion."

He researched the top thinkers of this time such as Freud and sociologists, relabeled and rebranded their contents, and the coup de grace was making a religion so it was tax-free and could attract the more feeble minded and superstitious.

Some concepts are very clearly lifted from mental health literature, for instance "engrams" are simply another word for "repressed trauma" as Freud had described in women who had supposedly had some unusual sexual experience, or fantasies of.

It's all best summed up by everyone's favorite Go-Homo singer Morrissey:
"The church, all they want is your money."

Post: #12

The only reason Scientology is getting all this bad press now is because it effects mostly upper middle class and rich people. If this were a cult focused more on poor people (with the same methods) you wouldn't hear nearly as much complaining. As a recently founded religion Scientology is pretty fascinating. Hubbard was brilliant in the sense that he lifted shit straight from the occult, old school hypnotism, and psychology 101 to mind fuck people. He understood the power of celebrity and how a lot of science fiction fans were socially awkward and easily misdirected into pseudo-scientific belief systems.

Scientology is dangerous if it's completely unchecked and allowed to proliferate into government just like how Islam is pretty dangerous if left unchecked. I agree that it's not more or less dangerous than the mainstream. It seems to actually be more efficient in how it relieves its members of resources and its use of blackmail and subterfuge.

Scientology itself shouldn't bother you because the cat is out of the bag already. What does bother me is what comes after Scientology. The cult got a lot of things right but they made mistakes. Now imagine someone coming up with a more refined version that learns from those mistakes..now that's something to be afraid of.

Post: #13

(04-02-2015 04:40 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, had an actual rap sheet as a con man-- he was a convicted crook. In fabulous style he used his trials to compare himself with Christ.
And almost illiterate. And it is hilariously ironic that Mormons are pretty upright clean-living people.

A really good book about the wackiness of Mormonism is Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven.

Mormonism at its basic foundation is a bunch of guys who collude to get as much competition free pussy as possible. That's what all the polygamy and arranged marriages is about. Also, kicking out young men so they don't upset the "natural" order.

Post: #14

(04-02-2015 04:21 PM)RockHard Wrote:  Guys, it's not a valid debate tactic to say "well, what they do is no big deal, look at religion X!".

I agree. Lumping Scientology with just 'modern religions' plays right into what they want the general public to believe. It's also unfair to discredit documentaries altogether just because they can be 'sensationalist.' If you haven't watched it, here's a link to a stream:

http://vodlocker.com/quxt67jvh7jw

At the end, according to the documentary, their numbers are dwindling, down to 50K members. But they're amassing properties all over the world, tax exempt, which valuates Scientology as a whole at over $3B. Again, according to the doc. How they got to that is the interesting part, not necessarily how 'dangerous' they are. It's an interesting look into human psychology. How to get people to fork over their money and completely cut off contact with sons and daughters, mothers and fathers.

The auditing I find really interesting. As mentioned above, auditing is essentially a confession that can be used against you. In Catholicism, the confession is usually more of a formality and the priest doesn't always encourage you to go deeper. But in scientology, it seems that they push you to go deeper, through the idea of desensitization. It's ingenious because you get instant feedback thanks to the E-meter, which seems to function like a lie detector. Upon initially recounting something horrifying, the E-meter flares up, a signal that the very idea is disturbing you. But as you repeat it, the E-meter becomes less responsive and you're 'clear.' I imagine that's also why they're such effective liars, they're almost trained to beat lie detectors. That auditing shit is a powerful-ass tool to get people to confess their deepest darkest secrets. Not only that, but an effective auditor can get you to repeat shit they're saying until it becomes a part of you. Who knew a lie detector could be used as a brain-washing device.

Now imagine people had that information about you, all your deepest secrets. Would you have the balls to participate in a documentary knowing that all that information is guaranteed to be made public? Because that's what happened to everyone who 'came out,' and in my opinion there was courage in coming out and admitting their shame and stupidity for being hoodwinked, and, indirectly, having their private lives and thoughts exposed. This documentary will definitely help people break from Scientology, but it's also important because it provides some of the themes to look out for when schemers inevitably come after your money. It makes a whole lot more people a whole lot less gullible, and to that end the makers deserve some props.

Cool doc.

Post: #15

(04-02-2015 09:44 PM)Kamikaze Wrote:  Now imagine people had that information about you, all your deepest secrets. Would you have the balls to participate in a documentary knowing that all that information is guaranteed to be made public? Because that's what happened to everyone who 'came out,' and in my opinion there was courage in coming out and admitting their shame and stupidity for being hoodwinked, and, indirectly, having their private lives and thoughts exposed.

I agree 100% and it is part of the reason why I decided to make a thread about it.

Post: #16

(04-02-2015 02:00 PM)Lucky Wrote:  -On Amazon, Dianetics is currently sold out. Likely has to do with this documentary.

Suckers.

http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%2...S%2055.pdf

Post: #17

(04-02-2015 09:44 PM)Kamikaze Wrote:  Now imagine people had that information about you, all your deepest secrets. Would you have the balls to participate in a documentary knowing that all that information is guaranteed to be made public?

In the documentary Paul Haggis (director of Million Dollar Baby, Crash, Third Person) mentioned that scientology is building websites to tarnish the reputations of former members.

Here is the one scientology built for Paul Haggis:

http://whoispaulhaggis.com/

The Hypocrite of Hollywood

Quote:I was a bad kid. I didn’t kill anybody. Not that I didn’t try.

And so begins the apocryphal autobiography of Paul Haggis, the doughy 58-year-old who’s so arrogant, he actually thought The New Yorker “profile” was actually about him.But then again, he thinks everything is about him.

Quote:Mr. Haggis is a status-obsessed screenwriter who in the words of The Hollywood Reporter has been in “the wilderness” professionally for three years. Mr. Haggis once again is exploiting his tenuous connection with Scientology to grab headlines. His statement that the organization anonymously comments negatively about those who leave the Church is delusional and borders on paranoia.

Another former member they're attacking is Mike Rinder, who was on the board of directors for scientology.

http://whoismichaelrinder.com

Quote:Rinder walked away from his Church, his wife and two children. When Rinder’s wife, daughter and brother, who flew in from Australia, went to see him, Rinder’s “welcome” was an attack that left his brother injured and the mother of his children in the care of paramedics. She sustained nerve damage to her arm still healing almost a year later and a dislocated shoulder requiring surgery to repair.

Then, to show he’s a real family man, he went on a paid anti-Scientology media junket to Australia and tricked his way into his elderly mother’s retirement home while she was away on vacation. He rifled through her belongings, snapping photos as trophies.

This shit is straight out of the National Enquirer. It's actually quite amatuerish; one would think with the money these guys have they'd do better than this.

Post: #18

I visited a centre and documented my experience in January 2014.

So, on a beautiful Thursday afternoon I embarked on a journey to Green Market Sq to visit the tobacconist and have a casual coffee with a book at hand. I am walking and this sign screams at me DIANETICS - SCIENTOLOGY.

Ha.

Inexplicably amused, I started chatting to the guy, Xavier, at his stall who proposed I take a test. In the name of science (no pun intended) I allocated 20 minutes of my time to take one, for shits and giggles.

Notwithstanding any previous opinions (or South Park episodes) here is my investigation. Hocus pocus kookiness ensues.

The test is 200 questions, peppered with subliminal questions concerning your generosity (every 6 questions- how often do you give money away without caring)
As I am taking the survey, I overhear the 'instructor' next to me discussing the steps with a Congolese car guard. Shame, he's in for the long run. As he is coughing up his hard-earned cash, I finish and expect the results. I go have a coffee, the flavours of shame and pure amusement being washed down with a cigarette.

I go back inside and I start my investigation. Unsuspecting and genuinely curious, with a 110% attempt at keeping a straight face. Unsurprisingly there is a hierarchy, defined by how much you pay these guys (to my understanding) to enter the different levels.

I coaxed the female instructor into showing me the members only area in which I saw an E-METER. HAHA. This gadget apparently measures your emotions and "use of it by anyone not in good standing with the Church of Scientology is prohibited". Nobody could explain how it works apart from the mere fact that it works.

After that, came the sales pitch. Of course. There is over 300 books (no joke) ranging from 'How to have the perfect baby' to 'How to have the ideal relationship'. You must first pay them and have them clean your toxins. In my case, I am critical and have a 'lack of accord'. I DO however have a fat wallet, to them.


Now, this is a cult and whatnot but I'll be damned at the people who are involved. Watching Congolese car guards and Somalian immigrants being lured into the CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY by Professor Xavier from Cameroon (as I affectionately started calling him) is pretty sobering, you can tell these people need support.

- No one could explain how it works yet they were ADAMANT it does.

- You must buy books, its a self help/study programme in which you pay membership to have your superior to help you out.

- Each book (and there's literally hundreds for every minute problem) is bloody expensive.

- The e-meter looks like two dildos attached to humidifier. You hold the 'dildos'.

- The issue of money is touchy with them but eventually they admitted that you have to pay.

- L Ron Hubbard is GOD. He is the reason for all good and his findings help everyone.

- I did not see/hear anything about Xenu or aliens but I am sure that would come up eventually, judging from the covers of books.

This was definitely a hilarious experience and insight into the insanity of this 'cult'.

The people working there have no clue as to what is going on but they believe nonetheless. In the words of the black receptionist: "The white people higher up know everything, if you join maybe they will help you find the bridge to total freedom".


Taking this into consideration I am starting my own cult. I am going to call it Cashience, the science of collecting cash. The first book is coming out May 2014 (to celebrate my bday) and will cost $399. Pre-order yours now for $99 and get a bumper sticker to give the aggro-drivers another reason to be pissed off with you in traffic.

Post: #19

Just saw the documentary from the link in this thread. Thank you

It is a strongly biased documentary but it is very interesting. I would have preferred just the facts but then again it is HBO.

I can't help but think at the end of the documentary that these people who are no longer part of Scientology are pieces of shit. Sure they're no longer associated but they still lied, cheated, and manipulated, a bunch of unsuspecting people. They even brought in some of their family members that got beaten and abused. What type of weak willed person do you have to be to let this go on for years. It's a sad thing to watch some of these people even stop talking to their own blood relatives.

Anyway all that aside the way Tom Cruise carries himself in the parts he is shown in the video is pretty alpha. Just the way he talks is powerful.

Post: #20

I view the religious (doesn't matter whether it's Scientology or Catholicism or whatever, a lie is a lie) the same way I view hard drug abusers. Their delusion causes me to pity them, but I don't really give a shit. People need to be responsible for their own lives and decisions.

It is no secret that using heroin or cocaine or meth everyday is extremely harmful to human health.

It is no secret that religion has no basis whatsoever in reality and is merely designed to serve as a crutch for people who can't handle life.

Neither drugs nor religion should be illegal. They should be regulated and allowed to compete for fools on a level playing field. If someone wants to throw their lives away, the role of the state should be to minimize the damage and disruption that they cause others.

On a criminal level though, a lot of major religions clearly violate RICO laws, and need to be taken down a peg.

So, the state should ensure basic standards of education so that people are informed that religion is bullshit and drugs are harmful, and if morons ignore that, well, tough shit for them.

Post: #21

(04-03-2015 05:35 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  I view the religious (doesn't matter whether it's Scientology or Catholicism or whatever, a lie is a lie) the same way I view hard drug abusers. Their delusion causes me to pity them, but I don't really give a shit. People need to be responsible for their own lives and decisions.

Does your view extend to people who don't have a choice in the matter, namely women who use crack while pregnant or bring their children up in a cult from birth? They're not responsible for the poor hand they're dealt.

Post: #22

(04-03-2015 05:35 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  People need to be responsible for their own lives and decisions.

Totally agree.

(04-03-2015 05:35 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  They should be regulated... the role of the state should be to minimize the damage and disruption that they cause others.

...the state should ensure basic standards of education so that people are informed

Is it within the realm of possibility that your skepticism of religion could reasonably be applied to the state as well? Since, as you point out, there are many weak and wilfully ignorant people out there, and the state is made up of (and elected by) some of these very same people.

Post: #23

(04-02-2015 12:41 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  I don't get the hate for Scientology. Have they killed anyone? Do they secretly molest little kids? Do they pose any kind of threat to traditional society and order? Probably not. Oh, but their BELIEFS are crazy!! Yea, well I can think of another religion with crazy ideas that does pose a threat to Western society. Too bad Alex Gibney didn't use his filmmaking skills to do an exposé on that.

A group of people pushing lib ideas (more government involvement domestically) who "took on the IRS and won when they owed a billion dollars in taxes."

...is a pretty big deal

I know what you mean here:

(04-03-2015 05:35 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  I view the religious (doesn't matter whether it's Scientology or Catholicism or whatever, a lie is a lie) the same way I view hard drug abusers. Their delusion causes me to pity them, but I don't really give a shit. People need to be responsible for their own lives and decisions.

Though it's tough to disregard the JudeoChristian basis of our legal system.

Like I do with politics, I also take concern (not every day worrying, but I pay attention) when groups like this have large influence on what I have the freedom or don't have the freedom to do.

A lot of celeb types would want to make sure if little ol me dug a hole too deep in my backyard in backcountry Minnesota, men with guns would come and throw me in jail. I pay attention to that, just as I pay attention to politics.

Good post OP, I just may watch it.

Post: #24

I thought this thread was going to be about a Seinfeld documentary

Seintology

Post: #25

(04-03-2015 11:51 AM)heavy Wrote:  Good post OP, I just may watch it.

Thank you. If reading/listening is more your style, it is based on a book. I will listen to the audiobook next week and report back here about the quality of it.