Post: #26

(03-23-2015 03:54 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Germans and Northern Europeans in general should just staright up forgive Greek debt 100% and end this nonsense.

They could decide to do it tomorrow and Greece would be out of their worst economic downturn in living memory.

If by "end" you mean it would be solved for the time being. So millions of hard working Germans would basically have their money stolen from them to pay for the lazy Greeks.

So if they were to do this, what would make the Greeks then want to work, appreciate masculine energy and creativity, or do anything more than what they have done for the last 10 years?

If the Greeks just go back to this life style, they will end up in the same place in 10 to 15 years. And we are right back where we started.

Post: #27

The germans complain complain complain, wishing to be seen as victims...but THEY are the ones pushing for all these bailouts. Why? Because as the Euro goes lower, their industrial machine revs up. the casual follower thinks "oh those poor germans" but I was lucky enough to be exposed to some Europeans closer to the power center who helped me understand how I was being duped.

Post: #28

(03-23-2015 05:39 PM)The Father Wrote:  The germans complain complain complain, wishing to be seen as victims...but THEY are the ones pushing for all these bailouts. Why? Because as the Euro goes lower, their industrial machine revs up. the casual follower thinks "oh those poor germans" but I was lucky enough to be exposed to some Europeans closer to the power center who helped me understand how I was being duped.

That is bull. Greek economy is tiny. EU could loose Greece tomorrow and nobody would turn around and say "hey, where is Greece?" The bottom line is that Greece took money and doesn't want to pay it back. They tried to make a coalition of southern countries but it failed miserably. Portugal, Italy and Spain told Greece to shut it and don't make problems for them.

Post: #29

Italians tell Greeks to shut it and stop spreading bull:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102508003

Post: #30

Lets be realistic here. German people like British & French people cannot vote in parties who will stop the EU juggernaut. This same EU giant which rail roads policies and demands cash for its little projects is created on the notion that greed is good and money is endless.

They demanded an extra 11 billion pounds form the UK because our economy is doing better than they expected.

Just look at the 1.4 trillion Euro QE project which is underway. The ego you need to pull something like that off and then brush it under the carpet without a hint of shame is the reason why the likes of Greece cannot be given a free pass. The QE printing program is scheduled to run indefinitely if it hasn't made inflation get to 2%.

Auditors have not been able to check off the EU for years now. Greece may have partied away through corruption and ignorance but there comes a time when someone who owes debt should be enabled to pay it back and lets be realistic here, Greeks do not want to have a lifelong debt burden to a country whose industrial ambitions far outstrip their own.

Allowing Greece off the hook will open up a way for other countries to do so. They're still dropping billions into Ukraine for some reason and they're not even in the EU! What can we expect down the line if the FSU countries like a slice of that pie?

Get in debt then demand a refund?

Post: #31

I think it was a mistake to enlarge the Euro (currency) zone beyond Germany, France, and the Benelux. Go back to the Coal and Steel community, I say.

Post: #32

I'm thinking you guys just read and have no clue what's going on here.

The Italians also jacked up Greece and deserve a proper ass smack down.

They should suck ass and pay the bill but as usual they wait.

Post: #33

(03-23-2015 02:54 PM)captndonk Wrote:  Why should I pay for something that happend way before I was even born?
Bringing ideas like this up is poisoning the relations between Germany and Greece.

Whenever you make a loan, you are planning to get interest and make some money.

There is always a chance the loan will not be repaid. This is called default.

Everybody gets screwed over sometimes, it's interesting how different cultures react when they think they got a raw deal.

I wasn't even born at the time of WW2 either, but I think it's naive to think politicians don't think there's just a little bit of crazy in German culture that will outlive a couple generations after that debacle.

Just like there's a little bit of lazy in the Greeks.

If you Germans are pissed off the Greeks turned out to be deadbeats ( I'm not disputing they conned the EU, I'm told it's a total tax-cheating country, there was warning about this) then don't give them any more money.

Sometimes there's a high price to being "right." In my opinion, there isn't a lot of sympathy for any German righteousness and vengefulness at this point in history.

Post: #34

I have to admit a great deal of satisfaction in watching the Greeks and Italians scam the northern Europeans out of their euros. I suppose I wouldn't be laughing if it were my money...but then, what can I say?




So much of this is cultural.

The Greeks and Italians are the wisest of all of us. They've seen it all before, all of it: currency collapses, invasions, wars, revolutions, panics, inflations, everything.

So why worry? Why kill yourself with stress?

Better to sit by the beach, sipping a coffee, and have a good laugh, and watch the world stew in its own juices.

And the Italians are the greatest of all...They've been living under a prime minister who's a known crook who spent his years in office throwing bunga-bunga parties and avoiding indictments.

Wake up, Deutchland. The party's over. You're not going to see one red cent of your money back from the Greeks or Italians. It's gone.

And it's your own fault. What the hell did you think was going to happen?

The euro is doomed. The EU is doomed. The countries are all just too culturally different, with too many different agendas. The whole Eurozone was one big scheme for the rich financiers to make a lot of money at the expense of everyone else.

Economic unions like this have a very short lifespan in history. There is nothing keeping these countries together except some bullshit paper money. And when that goes, it all goes.

Post: #35

^^^^ Ahh yeah! I want to go there just to talk trash only!!

Post: #36

This debate has wrongly been framed in terms of Greece v Germany. The reality is that the bailouts shifted the losses from the French and German banks onto the Greek taxpayer. Now, as a good capitalist, I have to ask, why was this done? The banks mispriced the sovereign risk of Greek debts, and misallocated vast amounts of capital. However, instead of them taking the losses, it has been deftly shifted into the backs of the people least able to pay. Capitalism ought not be private profits and socialized losses. It’s this sense of injustice which informs the current political climate in Greece. Greeks are happy to take their medicine, but not while the architects of this whole fiasco get off scot- free.

Now, it is quite obvious that the OP has an axe to grind with Greece. Why was it necessary to start a new thread when this topic was already canvassed in the “Syriza” thread? Just a few days ago in the Travel forum, he was relishing the prospect of a Grexit so he could have sex with a Greek girl “for a piece of bread”. Real classy guy, he must be a hit with the ladies… In any event I thought P4P was frowned upon in these forums. Here’s an idea Turuk. Stop obsessing about Greece. Why don’t you try working on your game? It might even make you a better human being.

Post: #37

(03-23-2015 05:46 PM)turuk Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 05:39 PM)The Father Wrote:  The germans complain complain complain, wishing to be seen as victims...but THEY are the ones pushing for all these bailouts. Why? Because as the Euro goes lower, their industrial machine revs up. the casual follower thinks "oh those poor germans" but I was lucky enough to be exposed to some Europeans closer to the power center who helped me understand how I was being duped.

That is bull. Greek economy is tiny. EU could loose Greece tomorrow and nobody would turn around and say "hey, where is Greece?" The bottom line is that Greece took money and doesn't want to pay it back. They tried to make a coalition of southern countries but it failed miserably. Portugal, Italy and Spain told Greece to shut it and don't make problems for them.

Sorry, let me explain better: As the euro falls, Germany's exports surge. Has nothing to do with the Greek economy - I'm talking about Germany's exports to the rest of the world. Works the same the world round; it's one reason China manipulates its currency downward to create a favorable (lower) exchange rate for your exports. As your currency weakens, your exports are cheaper to the rest of the world, and you sell more goods. As your currency strengthens, your existing wealth buys more around the world, BUT your economy slows down b/c the world can't afford your exports.

Post: #38

(03-23-2015 07:47 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  Wake up, Deutchland. The party's over. You're not going to see one red cent of your money back from the Greeks or Italians. It's gone.

Ummm...what party is that, exactly? The zillions they were going to make on low-interest loans to a failing economy? LOL. The party is just starting for the Germans: The euro is at 109 and touched 105 recently; many believe it will head below parity. The export party is just starting for Germany's manufacturers and other exporters. And for americans wishing to travel to Europe. For America's manufacturers and exporters? Not so much :/

Post: #39

There are no good guys in this scenario. The Greeks are a bunch of deadbeats. The Germans were idiots for lending to deadbeats. The bankers made off like bandits.

I actually don't care who wins this. What I care about is who loses this, and specifically the EUSSR. If this leads to the collapse of the euro, the EU, and ultimately the globalist agenda, then I'm all for the crisis.

Post: #40

The Germans, as The Father says, want to keep the bailouts going. If the Greeks default or refuse to pay back the loans, that money goes poof and the Euro will scream higher probably putting a lot of German and Greek companies out of business. There will be a lot of short term pain for Greece but they will come out of it much stronger. Fact is Greece never should have been loaned this money in the first place, as they never had any ability to pay it all off. They could only continue to maintenance the debt, but never ever pay it off. The loans were fraud and I bet Greece could argue that. Greece should tell them to shove it.

Post: #41

People shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that this is about lazy Greeks vs prudent Germans. It's about financial and political elites vs reality. Greece entering the Euro, and more importantly, its debt being recognized as collateral of the same quality as German debt meant that financial institutions had all kinds of appetite for Greek debt. It was higher yielding, with the same risk (supposedly) as German debt, and could be used as collateral to back other risky ventures. The Greeks had a market to float seemingly as much debt as it wanted. The politicos could bask in the new United States of Europe. Win-win for everyone.

Except Greek debt and German debt aren't of the same risk quality, and the reality of this is the crux of the problems. Not only because of Greece itself, but because it is endemic of similar issues in much larger economies such as Spain and Italy. All of those economies got to borrow at German rates, despite their economies not being of German quality. Facing up to this reality means that the financial institutions which lent all the money are going to have to take hits, hits that may or may not bring the financial sector to its knees. This is why ultimately the political elites have, and will continue to support bailouts, explicit or implicit.

In my view bailouts are not a solution, that only piles more debt onto an already insurmountable load. The anti-austerity view is also a fantasy - Greece is in for some sort of austerity no matter what happens. It's best if they are allowed to default, and the financial institutions which lent them money eat their losses.

Greece will end up shut out of public debt markets for a long time, as they should. If they actually want to turn their economy around, they will have to do so from the bottom up. People think that they can be forgiven their debt, devalue a neo-drachma and all will be well. As long as their economy is rife with corruption and seemingly based on olive oil and tourism, that plan won't fly. It will require high interest rates to induce savings and investment, declining prices (including wages), and removal of all of the ridiculous regulations that prevent even the most basic things from getting done.

(03-23-2015 10:15 PM)The Father Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 05:46 PM)turuk Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 05:39 PM)The Father Wrote:  The germans complain complain complain, wishing to be seen as victims...but THEY are the ones pushing for all these bailouts. Why? Because as the Euro goes lower, their industrial machine revs up. the casual follower thinks "oh those poor germans" but I was lucky enough to be exposed to some Europeans closer to the power center who helped me understand how I was being duped.

That is bull. Greek economy is tiny. EU could loose Greece tomorrow and nobody would turn around and say "hey, where is Greece?" The bottom line is that Greece took money and doesn't want to pay it back. They tried to make a coalition of southern countries but it failed miserably. Portugal, Italy and Spain told Greece to shut it and don't make problems for them.

Sorry, let me explain better: As the euro falls, Germany's exports surge. Has nothing to do with the Greek economy - I'm talking about Germany's exports to the rest of the world. Works the same the world round; it's one reason China manipulates its currency downward to create a favorable (lower) exchange rate for your exports. As your currency weakens, your exports are cheaper to the rest of the world, and you sell more goods. As your currency strengthens, your existing wealth buys more around the world, BUT your economy slows down b/c the world can't afford your exports.

What you're describing is a short term gimmick used by politicians at the sight of economic turbulence. Unfortunately it has become an accepted belief. Specifically, if what you're saying holds, the German economy would have been nowhere from the 1950s until 2007-2008. During that time period, between the DEM and Euro, the Germans held a constantly appreciating currency. It's only since 2008 that the Euro has been falling. But you'd be hard pressed to argue that the Germans haven't been exporting like mad for the better part of 60 years.

The currency gimmicks are a zero sum game. In exchange for artificially boosting your export figures, you harm anyone who holds the currency (including the exporters themselves, who have to deal in local currency). The Germans are paying for their post 2008 export boom with stagnant wages. The low Euro isn't doing anything for the average German, only large multinationals, who might as well be lumped in with the financial elites I mentioned earlier. The average man, whether Greek or German, is the loser in all of this.

Post: #42

The problem is guys that if Greece is allowed to not pay off its debts...who's next?

Ireland? Portugal? Spain? Even Italy herself? All horribly indebted to the ECB (Germany).

Germany cannot afford to bail out every single European nation's ludicrous debt levels.

The whole Euro project is and was a disaster from the beginning.

You cannot have currency union without monetary union.

Everyone knew this. They still do.

Expect more shenanigans until Monetary Union is somehow forced into being; that is the end game and always has been.

Eurocrats care not for the European man and woman; the grand project, power and their place in history is all that matters.