Post: #26

I don't feel like writing much.
But to be fair. Eisenhower never saw a day of combat either.

But yes. I agree it is much easier to have awards written for you.

Post: #27

Look on the bright side. Since these guys game is so bad they have to resort to this desperate level of 'peacocking', they will still never get laid. Game on and don't look back.

Post: #28

(03-11-2015 09:22 PM)Frontenac Wrote:  That's a very interesting comparison between Eisenhower and Petraeus. Goes go show its not how many medals you got but how you handled your responsibilities.

I guess it comes down to a difference in philosophies. I believe medals should only really be awarded for outstanding conduct, for behaviour or acts which go beyond the call of duty. Military service is inherently dangerous. Life-threatening, or life-ending. Against that background, medals shouldn't be getting awarded for what Admiral Nimitz called the "uncommon valour that was a common virtue", they should be for acts truly above and beyond judged against the heightened standard of courage that military service requires.

But especially in these latter years it seems the medals are meant to be a sort of diary, a CV - "how I spent my 20-year summer vacation", given the number of medals that merely signify presence in the armed forces during a particular conflict. (To his discredit, Eisenhower introduced perhaps the stupidest attendance medal of them all: the National Defence Service Medal, derided among Vietnam veterans as the "I was alive in '65" medal because all you had to be was breathing and wearing a uniform in a given year space to satisfy its criteria. Literally every serving member of the US armed forces has this medal, because it was reinstated after 2001.)

I don't have a problem with remembering certain conflicts, but the general public doesn't understand the distinctions at all, and I query whether you get a medal for literally just doing your job. It's as if the uniform itself is not an honour or worthy of respect in itself.

Post: #29

(03-11-2015 09:28 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  I don't feel like writing much.
But to be fair. Eisenhower never saw a day of combat either.

Yup - which is reflected in the fact he had a total of 10 medals for his entire half-century career, of which none were for bravery. Compare that to Petraeus of whom John Cleese might have said in Fawlty Towers, "I've never seen so many medals around one neck. He must be the bravest orang-utang in Britain."

Post: #30

I believe laws against impersonating a veteran or falsely claiming to have military decorations have been struck down by higher courts in the US. So, if that's true, there's not really anything people can formally do against guys who do this.

The reason, IMO, that so many men in North American do this is because veterans have such high status in American and Canadian culture. So, it gives these fakers status in their community, which is important to some people, especially if they have a personality disorder. In Japan, where military veterans have almost zero status, I've never heard of anyone falsely claiming to be a war hero.

Post: #31

This gives me an idea..
I think I'm going to hit the MILF bar wearing doctor's scrubs and tell them I just go off a hard day's work at the ER.

Post: #32

I'm going to run counter-current to this.

I don't have a problem with him wearing the uniform.

I never served. I do come from a somewhat decorated military family.

Grandpa 1 was a pilot that flew over Normandie and in Korea.
Grandpa 2 was a Master Sergeant.
Dad is Vietnam combat vet, CIB and bronze star.

I have nothing but respect for those that serve. I understand that the armed forces is an institution that makes men out of boys.

But I also understand that the military is the tool of the political elites and they don't give two fucking shits about your uniform or your medals. One of my dad's good friends is a decorated Vietnam vet, in the Marines, purple heart and all that. I remember him and my dad having an intense conversation about his medals and shit, how he always tried to make his dad proud, and felt like he could have come home in a coffin but because of some stupid pieces of metal then his dad would have finally been proud of him. My dad burned his fatigues and pretty much anything that reminds him of Vietnam, but the pictures remain (he was transferred to combat photography, a move that saved his life)

I know this example doesn't hold as much gravity, but I run into people all the time that call themselves chefs. None of them have ever run a station doing 500 covers on a Saturday night, but what do I care? If they want to run around and use the title of "chef" as some sort of ego boost, it's no skin off my back. Might as well run around calling yourself a plumber.

The notion of "disrespect towards those who served", I just don't see it like that. There's no more draft. There's no global threat that requires this country to rally together, everyone start making sacrifices and working towards a common cause. That is a bygone era. We're in the era of an ever-changing enemy that may or may not be the direct product of our foreign policy, an era of privatized armed forces, an era where our taxes and sons and daughters are used like hamburger meat to secure massive profits for a miniscule few.

Again, I have nothing but respect for anyone that has the balls to stare death in the face. But beyond that, as far as duty to one's country and all that, I just don't buy it. And that is directly the product of my upbringing. I grew up listening to the disgust of my dad and grandfathers being directed at how our military was being used.

Post: #33

When you volunteer for the armed forces, you give up your rights and go where you are told to go and do what you are told to do.

It's life of hardship, loneliness, and sacrifice.

There are varying degrees of soldiers. I for one have no respect for soft skill paper pushers or gas pumpers and any job that women do in the military but combat arms, where men are willing to fight and die deserve respect and have earned the right to wear the uniform.

But even the shittiest regular army shit heel that is good for nothing but standing in front of a bullet is better than someone that pretends to have gone through military life.

That uniform is earned and when some fuck that hasn't earned it puts it on to steal the respect it garners, it is an insult to everyone that went through hell past and future.

Post: #34

Regardless of the politics of war. Tool of the political elite etc.
The uniform means something to those people that sacrificed and busted their ass for their country.

These assholes are wanting the benefits and admiration that comes with wearing the uniform without making the sacrifices.. Fuck them.

Post: #35

My mom used to have this crazy ass biker boyfriend that was always going apeshit. He'd beat himself in the face, hard, with those big maglite flashlights when they were fighting. Knocked himself out one time by bashing a thick beer mug over his own head. Pulled a knife on me once - stabbed some guy in the neck with a knife at the bar one night.

Everyone gave him a bit of leeway for his psychotic behavior because he blamed it on his experiences in Vietnam. Even broke down one night on Veteran's Day crying and causing a big scene and threw all his medals in the fire.

We spoke to his family year's later. The guy wasn't even in the Vietnam War - he wasn't a veteran (at least not one that ever saw combat) and had been a young teen still when the war finished. He was lying about his age and just looked older than he was because of all the tweak.

Damndest shit I ever saw a guy do for attention...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #36

It's a standing joke in the Uk, when discussing Walter Mitty types, to say that they were "first on the balcony".

This refers to the Iranian Embassy siege the SAS pulled off back in the 80s.

I.e. pretending to be in the special forces isn't enough for this guy, he had to be in the most famous incident ever.


We do have a very strange relationship with our military in a way that Americans wouldn't really understand (I prefer your way).

Post: #37

I really don't understand some of the commenters who have "no problem with this."

For Christ's sake, people.

Let's just set aside the whole military thing. This goes beyond that. This is about fraud and false pretenses. This is about being a fucking confidence man.

Why are they called "confidence men"? Because they trick you into giving them your confidence. These people are thieves.

Would you be offended by a guy who posed as an "investment guru" and induced you to trust his advice?

This isn't just some harmless posing. It's wrapping oneself in a sacred cloak, and claiming it to be your own, when you have not earned it.

Veloce, how would you feel if some guy filled out a job application claiming to be a master chef, and was not?

Post: #38

(03-12-2015 10:13 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  I really don't understand some of the commenters who have "no problem with this."

For Christ's sake, people.

Let's just set aside the whole military thing. This goes beyond that. This is about fraud and false pretenses. This is about being a fucking confidence man.

Why are they called "confidence men"? Because they trick you into giving them your confidence. These people are thieves.

Would you be offended by a guy who posed as an "investment guru" and induced you to trust his advice?

This isn't just some harmless posing. It's wrapping oneself in a sacred cloak, and claiming it to be your own, when you have not earned it.

Veloce, how would you feel if some guy filled out a job application claiming to be a master chef, and was not?

I see it all the time.

I just don't see the purpose of calling people out in public like this. Shit, I know some older guys in the Vietnam Veterans biker club, big, tough looking mofos, and I know back then they basically filled gas tanks and that's it. But they'll be the first to tell you about "fallen brothers" and all that shit. I'd never call them out on it, who cares? If they feel the need to posture and portray themselves in a certain way, then that's on them.

I find that frauds tend to out themselves in one way or another. You gotta keep in mind, I lived in L.A. for 14 years. According to the stories I've heard, I've known private assassins, 12th degree blackbelts, dancers for Michael Jackson, personal chefs to Queen Elizabeth, I can't even remember all the stupid bullshit I've heard over the years. Those aren't hyberbole, I've actually heard people claim they were those things to me. You learn to smile and nod after a while.

You can go out there and call people out until you're blue in the face, and the world will pass you by, completely uninterested, while you get pissed off about some kid wearing a uniform that he didn't earn.

People misrepresent themselves all the time, in varying degrees. Who here hasn't puffed up their resume to land a certain gig at some point or another? I realize that's a bit removed from wearing a service uniform to pick up girls, but I just don't believe that anything is that sacred.

Post: #39

This is a side effect of uniform worship in our country. These losers want some moron to come up, shake their hand, and say "thank you for your service" to them.

Post: #40

(03-12-2015 03:44 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  It's a standing joke in the Uk, when discussing Walter Mitty types, to say that they were "first on the balcony".

This refers to the Iranian Embassy siege the SAS pulled off back in the 80s.

I.e. pretending to be in the special forces isn't enough for this guy, he had to be in the most famous incident ever.


We do have a very strange relationship with our military in a way that Americans wouldn't really understand (I prefer your way).

I was in the British Army.

I can't tell you what regiment, but I've seen shit, man... exactly...



Like...



Ehh.. this guy...



I was led to understand it was all about windsurfing, scuba diving in tropic climes, and the unspoken but real promise of pussy.

Total bollocks.

Turned out that army life is all about getting up early, being cold, being told what to do, polishing boots, and ironing razor-sharp creases into your clothes. Who knew?

My military career may have been inglorious, but I can say with satisfaction that the United Kingdom and her allies were never defeated in war on my watch.



Anyway. A lot of people who have served in the forces hate Walts, but due to my lifelong love of bullshit, I fucking love them. They are crazy diamonds, shining in their own little world of pure imagination.



They never claim to be ex-Royal Logistic Corps or ex-Royal Army Dental Corps.

They're always "Super Army Soldiers", with a chest full of medals, outrageously entertaining stories about their career as a real life John Rambo/ James Bond / Little Dark, and quite often also happen to also be aristocrats with improbable titles that they definitely didn't buy off the internet.



God bless em, every one.

Post: #41

In medieval Japan, wearing a sword you were not entitled to wear, or claiming status that was not earned, would come with an immediate death penalty.

In ancient Rome, forgery of legacies or wills was punished by involuntary penal servitude for several years.

.

Post: #42

@ Steve

You forgot to mention the colour of the boathouse at Hereford...

Post: #43

(03-12-2015 12:02 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  In medieval Japan, wearing a sword you were not entitled to wear, or claiming status that was not earned, would come with an immediate death penalty.

In ancient Rome, forgery of legacies or wills was punished by involuntary penal servitude for several years.

.

See, that's the thing, is I believe in valor during those times. I do believe in valor during WW2. We know why we got involved in WW2. Japan attacked the U.S., and German and Italy declared war on us.

But how many soldiers in Vietnam were stationed abroad and thinking, "What the fuck are we doing here?"

How many soldiers were stationed in Iraq and thinking,
"What the fuck are we doing here?"

I can't speak for anyone other than my dad and what I experienced watching him growing up, but the guy has some serious demons. When I was younger he would still wake up barking in the middle of the night. He's still angry. So this uniform that means so much to this guy in the video, to my dad that uniform means being played by the U.S. government. It means drafting thousands of young men and completely fucking up their lives, either by outright getting them killed or fucking them up in the head. It means being sent into a jungle, watching the guys next to you get blown to pieces, having to put their body parts in a tarp and carry them back to camp. It means thinking, "Alright motherfuckers, that's how you want to play it? You're all dead you fucking chinks." and turning into an animal and watching human life turn into dogmeat. It means being exposed to agent orange and then coming home and being called a baby killer (and this guy Lembcke or whatever having the gall to publish a book saying that never happened) Where's the valor in any of that?

He's a fucked up guy, but my dad's still my hero. I know if he saw some kid wearing fatigues who had never served, he wouldn't give a shit, and if anything would just laugh at the notion of someone trying to play up their image by faking their service experience.

Post: #44

Yeah, no matter what you think about this my advice would be to not steal valor. Sure, a lot of veterans will probably just call your bluff and embarrass you at the bar.

However, there is a not so small group that will straight up kick the shit out of you. I knew one guy, we weren't friends or anything, who wasn't even intentionally trying to do this. It was something like his sister or brother were in the Marines and gave him a shirt that apparently could only be bought at some marine base or something. In other words in wasn't from Walmart. So he is wearing it around, and to be clear he does not in any way look like a marine and is too young to be a retired marine, at a bar or some place. From what I heard some chick hit on him and asked him if he was a marine saying something like she only fucks marines or something. I don't remember exactly, it has been many years.

So, from what I heard, and keep in mind that this guy would have been lucky to be laid twice in his life at this point, he doesn't deny it but also doesn't come out and say it either because he is thinking he is going to get laid. From what my friend, who was friends with this guy at the time, told me there were a number of marines near by. Well, end of the story is that they beat the shit out of him.

At the same time, I would also advise you guys to not claim to be members of the Hells Angels or any other 1% club. I would also advise you to not do anything like this around veteran motorcycle clubs. Shit could get bad for you real fast.

Post: #45

I'm with Veloce on this one.

While it is sickening that these people are profiteering (free attention, press) from stolen valor, if you call these shits out on it they're just going to continue living in fantasy land as ex-backup guitarists for AC/DC or having been black ops french foreign legion saving people of interest during the rwanda crisis or something equally retarded. Without insider information you can't really call it out unless you're feeling particularly bold at bluffing and sadistic and catch them being inconsistent. They might walk in guns loaded so it's a gamble that's not likely to pay off.

Part of the problem with this is that military valor isn't demonstrable. It's sort of like hearsay. It's easy to steal valor. You just order a costume off ebay and walk around in it. If a guy wants to go around saying he can deadlift 600 pounds and doesn't even look like he lifts then you can just say "Go ahead fucker, pick it up" and he does or he doesn't.

Not sure what to say about this but if it's not a crime to wear fake colors, it should be punishable as fraud. These fools are a cynical reminder that most of us don't know shit about the military, and wouldn't be able to call it out.

Post: #46

I say the following as a serving reservist in one of the combat arms of the army:

I would make a distinction between wearing a uniform and pretending to be a soldier, and actually stealing valor.

Wearing the uniform like the dipshit in the first video and pretending to be a soldier/sailor is pretty contemptible, but it's just stupid to get that worked up over it. The guy's a faker, I'd just like to watch a Guards Sergeant (or equivalent) give him the dressing down of his life. I'm exactly with Steve McMahon, in that these guys are more tragicomic than anything.

Not all soldiers have valor to steal. I'd feel pretty stupid if someone tried to suggest he was stealing my valor, having never deployed to a combat zone, or done anything of distinction in my army career. There's a lot of soldier worship at the moment, and whilst I think it is something that deserves respect, you aren't automatically a hero because you wear natty camoflage. Something like this




(story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...escue.html )

takes rather more balls than fixing trucks at Camp Bastion (still an essential job worthy of respect, but not heroic).

By contrast though, I do think the guys who misappropriate medals for gallantry need a clip round the ear. Just to earn the oak leaf in the British Army requires taking extraordinary personal risk, and often sacrifice. I don't think it's misappropriation should be ignored by any decent minded person who is aware of what it takes to earn one. Even more so for the more significant awards for gallantry.

Post: #47

(03-12-2015 12:02 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  In medieval Japan, wearing a sword you were not entitled to wear, or claiming status that was not earned, would come with an immediate death penalty.

In ancient Rome, forgery of legacies or wills was punished by involuntary penal servitude for several years.

.

Can you imagine how much pain would be inflicted on someone if they forged a fake eagle standard on their farm and paraded around town with it claiming to be an aquilifer?

Legionaries would tear this fucker apart like wild dogs.

Post: #48

I have a problem with this. Why?

These are presumably American born losers posing to be serving their country while likely wasting the country's resources and in this case, its honor.

But that's not why I'm mad. I was an Indian immigrant that spoke little good English and had zero social life that signed my life away to the Navy for a few years. While not in combat directly, I was in combat zones (waters of Bosnia) supporting a battle group of ships that had better weapons than we did. It was an oiler. So yeah, if something hit us we would have blown the fuck up. So yes, I realize I'm glad to be alive actually.

Then I see this thread and realize that these are the toolboxes I went out there for and I wasn't even born here. They probably don't even realize there are people like me out there.

Threads like this make me realize how American I really am but without my uniform and medals, who's the wiser?

Post: #49

(03-12-2015 05:38 PM)Cobra Wrote:  I have a problem with this. Why?

These are presumably American born losers posing to be serving their country while likely wasting the country's resources and in this case, its honor.

But that's not why I'm mad. I was an Indian immigrant that spoke little good English and had zero social life that signed my life away to the Navy. While not in combat directly, I was in combat zones (waters of Bosnia) supporting a battle group of ships that had better weapons than we did. It was an oiler. So yeah, if something hit us we would have blown the fuck up. So yes, I realize I'm glad to be alive actually.

Then I see this thread and realize that these are the toolboxes I went out there for and I wasn't even born here. They probably don't even realize there are people like me out there.

Who's more American?

This is why service should coincide with your personal belief system when it comes to deeper sense of civic duty and what not. If it's not about that then it should be about accomplishing larger goals in your life and earning certain skillsets to achieve those goals.

Expecting the public to care about you or your service is asking too much these days.

People won't logically or rationally feel any sort of gratitude for any of it. People will express pithy sentiments about soldiers and what not but it's all just empty rhetoric. There is really no honor in American society to be found these days. It's not like in the post WW2 era when some common immigrant soldier like Daniel Inouye could go from being shit on in an internment camp to serving in the 442 and then become a senator based on his deeds alone.

It's all about phony images, celebrities, and overpaid sports heroes these days. How much can you pay your publicist and suck a media mogul's cock to get your name out there?

Post: #50

^I edited my post since I took it so personally the first time.

I do see your point. It's one of the reasons I got out, learned a skill, apply it and do fine. I still may have a hard time running for senator though.

Then again, Arnie went governor.