Post: #1

Reaching out to the community as I'm taking a fresh look at where I'm failing on first dates. Typically meet these girls off Hinge (social circle based tinder), typically go to a local cocktail place near me in Manhattan. Date typically last 2 drinks and are not awkward in any way, typically get a few laughs. Either get a kiss and try to move to my place for wine or we go our separate ways with "this was fun, thanks for the drinks". I'll then follow up in 2 days and get a muted response or frankly no response. Clearly it's me as this has happened with the last 5 girls. Given I'm at these dates, I'm the best at answering where I'm screwing up. I'm leaning towards the fact that I'm just not that interesting to talk to for 2 hours. Don't think it's looks, body language, lifestyle.

Has anyone gone through what I'm seeing right now, if so what was the issue and what would you suggest I reexamine?

Post: #2

It always depends on the girl you are hanging out with. Some of them are open minded/fun to talk to and some of them are more conservative. That being said, you will have to judge better your actions...

You should try different approaches while having having a conversation with a girl.

1) What do you guys talk about for 2 hours?
2) Do you talk about sex at all? Sexual content?
3) Do you touch her other than Kissing for example?
4) Do you try to close/seal the deal (I.E What are you doing tonight?)

Post: #3

It always depends on the girl you are hanging out with. Some of them are open minded/fun to talk to and some of them are more conservative. -> Very true and some of these girls add nothing to the conversation, at the end of the night I realize I have been carrying the entire conversation from start to finish. Who knows if that's nerves on their end or just tired from a long day at work.

That being said, you will have to judge better your actions...-> Noted, as I said this is on me and given that I'm the only one on the date I would have the best read on the situation. Also these girls would never give you any legitimate constructive criticism. So I need to get better or just use night game.

You should try different approaches while having having a conversation with a girl.

1) What do you guys talk about for 2 hours? -> work, family, where they live, basic background shit that can get stale, I need to improve this in a big way

2) Do you talk about sex at all? Sexual content?
Never, talk about dating and gender dynamics but never sex. Would like to see advice on how to insert this into the convo.

3) Do you touch her other than Kissing for example?
Try to in subtle ways when we're laughing, but no direct contact with the clear intention. Most of the time I do this, I'm gauging how they react post touch.


4) Do you try to close/seal the deal (I.E What are you doing tonight?)
Always ask them to walk back to my apartment for a glass of wine, poor form on my part?

Post: #4

You're asking questions that are closing her legs. Even if she liked you a lot upon initial approach, the topics you talk about are too typical. Remember, you are trying to bang her, not a federal agent agent conducting Census data. If you're pumping alcohol into her, start the teasing. The problem is the incongruence, you're giving her alcohol to loosen up but talking like a job interview. You have an excuse to say the most impulsive and offensive observations ever, you're drunk. If she laughs, sweet. If she says, " I can't believe you said that.", (Bonus points if she laughs at it and punches you in the chest. You can flip that and accuse her of trying to feel you up.), then brush it off and keep plowing. Mix the observational tone of Jerry Seinfeld but with dirty sailor humor and Dennis Rodman sporadic behavior.

Also learn to rearrange your words. This is a standard sucker line, which makes it worse since you met her online:

"So what do you like to do for fun?"

Rearrange the same question/use it to set up something else:

" Let me guess,...blah...blah...(basic bitch activities, yoga, foodie, etc.)"
" You look like you like..., Lets go do that next week."

The two questions above guarantee that you hold the dominant and judging position, and she has to qualify herself. Also, the act of guessing turns it into a subtle game instead of an interview vibe.

Even if you ask average questions like her hometown, you can leverage that into a tease. For example, I recently opened a girl from Humboldt, California. Shes one of those self-proclaimed good girls, but I can easily tease her into smoking weed and escalating because of that little caveat some guys miss.

Simply put, you need to travel or learn more stuff to hold up a good conversation. After that, you should be able to hold up two hours through sheer creativity, sense of humor and comfort. Don't worry about girls, just get yours first. The rapper Nas said "You lose money chasing women, never lose women chasing money."

Post: #5

(03-10-2015 01:36 PM)themilkman Wrote:  Reaching out to the community as I'm taking a fresh look at where I'm failing on first dates. Typically meet these girls off Hinge (social circle based tinder), typically go to a local cocktail place near me in Manhattan. Date typically last 2 drinks and are not awkward in any way, typically get a few laughs. Either get a kiss and try to move to my place for wine or we go our separate ways with "this was fun, thanks for the drinks". I'll then follow up in 2 days and get a muted response or frankly no response. Clearly it's me as this has happened with the last 5 girls. Given I'm at these dates, I'm the best at answering where I'm screwing up. I'm leaning towards the fact that I'm just not that interesting to talk to for 2 hours. Don't think it's looks, body language, lifestyle.

Has anyone gone through what I'm seeing right now, if so what was the issue and what would you suggest I reexamine?

You're setting yourself up for failure buddy by going to the cocktail bar. You live in Manhattan and the best you can do is a cocktail bar?

You need to plan multiple venues so you always stay in motion with the girl. Hook and jab baby...they don't need to be splashy places just varied so you can give yourself a chance to turn up her desire and heat.

Example...
You meet at an ice cream place...then you walk around and do a little window shopping,
see an mini exhibit, grab something to eat, stop by a cozy cafe for coffee, etc

That's 2-3 hours (at least) and gives you time to escalate and build some heat...
If your objective is to take her home, then that's really hard to do when your date begins and ends in the same place.

The objective is to make out with the girl at least. You don't have to sleep with her
but if all she says is "Thanks for the drinks" at the end of the night, then you either
had zero chemistry with her or the highlight of her evening were the drinks.

Ideally you want to be in a situation where you're making out by the end of the night and it's getting so hot that you two either have to stop now or keep going. That should be the gold standard for any first date.

Post: #6

One a Day and Pontifex have pretty much said it all. My observation and what I believe you already said is that you're doing most of the talking on these dates right? The first thing you need to do is turn that completely around. You should be only doing about 25-30% of the talking and she does the rest. And yes, steer clear of the standard interview type questions but at the same time really try to find out what she enjoys doing, what's she passionate about, etc. From there you take those conversation threads to endless places "how in the world did you get into underwater basket weaving??" "what's the most misunderstood thing about that?". Yes, those are absurd examples but keep in mind women are emotional creatures and you want to be leading the conversation in a direction that gets her emotional, in a positive way.

Also don't hold back on playfully teasing her but be careful not to be too brutal with that and over game. And finally, ABT: Always be touching. Anytime you get her to laugh, laugh with her and quickly squeeze her arm or place your hand over hers on the table or bar. Eventually you can "accidentally" bump her leg under the table with yours and eventually leave it touching. You want the vibe to be relaxed, fun and flirtatious. Finally, go back and read the extensive "first date bang recipe" on here. It's in my opinion the biggest treasure trove of date game advice anywhere on the internet.

Post: #7

Very aware that asking her about her marginal tax rate isn't getting it wet, my text game is strong but I know I can't back it up the banter in real life. This may be an effect of too much online game this winter. There is nothing seducing in asking shit I can just find off her LinkedIn.

I also think there are more hurdles when you met off Tinder or Hinge, your a random guy from the Internet so logically it's going to be harder to get chemistry. Or am I just making bullshit excuses?

Thanks for the replies and multi venue changes advice, I need to step it up because sitting in a cocktail for 2 hours is not cutting it as there is no energy to work off of. Need to add something to my bag of tricks as 2 drinks and her coming back to my place with no kissing is such a low probability wager.

Post: #8

Finally, go back and read the extensive "first date bang recipe" on here. -> Agree and have tried to make it work with logistics and vibe but clearing it's not as well as it could. Other buddies of mine have trouble getting dates with hotties but kill it once they go out, I'm having the opposite problem. Thinking of learning stand up or something to improve my frame and banter.

Post: #9

(03-10-2015 03:31 PM)Apollo21 Wrote:  You're setting yourself up for failure buddy by going to the cocktail bar. You live in Manhattan and the best you can do is a cocktail bar?

To be fair, this is the RVF recommended formula for bangs.

2 drinks @ location A
bounce to location B
2 more drinks @ location B
Bounce home to bang.

But it assumes good verbal game and escalating sexual tension and being very sure/very confident that when you get her behind closed doors you both can "let loose"

NYC is especially thirsty, because the pool of cool guys that aren't douchebags or lames is quite small compared to the # of chicks looking for some dick.

A simple date like you've suggested is actually fairly elaborate my modern standards.

WIA

Post: #10

(03-10-2015 01:36 PM)themilkman Wrote:   "this was fun, thanks for the drinks".

Others nail it. But I think this is one of the problems.

I'm not rigid on paying for girls' drink but still... If you are not making headway with a girl because you try anything and nothing works, leave the fucking bitch what are you doing with buying her a 2nd drink. Drink in NYC is like 12 bucks a cocktail diluted with ice. In fact my go-to venue change line is "they don't know how to make cocktail here. Let's head back to my place and I'll show you the real stuff"

There's a lot of good advice on RVF about getting her to buy the next round therefore making her more invested.

If you do need to get a 2nd drink, do so at another venue. Venue change is critical if you are stuck on escalation.

That and just make the date more fun as people suggested. While I personally understand the idea of venue change I've never really needed it. Girls who didn't want me didn't even want to venue change. And all the girls I've banged/made out with, I just took them dancing and make them laugh their hearts out, then straight home.

EDIT: I saw Tuth just chimed in with a what the fuck face did you even read his 1st date bang recipe?

Post: #11

(03-10-2015 04:01 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  To be fair, this is the RVF recommended formula for bangs.

2 drinks @ location A
bounce to location B
2 more drinks @ location B
Bounce home to bang.

Post: #12

(03-10-2015 04:01 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(03-10-2015 03:31 PM)Apollo21 Wrote:  You're setting yourself up for failure buddy by going to the cocktail bar. You live in Manhattan and the best you can do is a cocktail bar?

To be fair, this is the RVF recommended formula for bangs.

2 drinks @ location A
bounce to location B
2 more drinks @ location B
Bounce home to bang.

But it assumes good verbal game and escalating sexual tension and being very sure/very confident that when you get her behind closed doors you both can "let loose"

NYC is especially thirsty, because the pool of cool guys that aren't douchebags or lames is quite small compared to the # of chicks looking for some dick.

A simple date like you've suggested is actually fairly elaborate my modern standards.

WIA

Well said.

That brings up another good point...if he's not screening any of these girls hard, then they're both just dating blind...getting dates in real life(i.e no online game) will fix that issue...even though he will have to work harder...although the dates will be better quality.

It reminds me of one first date I had where I booked a hotel room (in advance) and invited a girl to come with me to a weekend festival. After two hours on the train, we checked straight into our hotel room...no elaborate scheme needed.

Post: #13

(03-10-2015 04:39 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(03-10-2015 04:01 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  To be fair, this is the RVF recommended formula for bangs.

2 drinks @ location A
bounce to location B
2 more drinks @ location B
Bounce home to bang.

Apologies sir.

/thread-8681.html

WIA

Post: #14

(03-10-2015 01:36 PM)themilkman Wrote:  Either get a kiss and try to move to my place for wine or we go our separate ways with "this was fun, thanks for the drinks".

Has anyone gone through what I'm seeing right now, if so what was the issue and what would you suggest I reexamine?

You're coming across as too nice and they're using you for drinks, or at least that's the impression that I"m getting.

Do you stick to safe "girlfriend" topics or are you having fun and trolling the girl? It's hard to tell what you're doing wrong, but the reason I'm replying is because this summer I had a 3-4 date streak where chicks left after 30 minutes or wouldn't meet up with me again. In fact, I have had a few other chicks begin to do this recently.

How are you on your dates are you relaxed and leaning back, occasionally going on your phone and doing other shit? I find that when I act slightly rude I find escalating easier. I try to make sure to sit close to them at the bar and touch them as the night goes on. Small physical things like that make winning the battle easier in the long. It's easier to pull her when she's comfortable with your touch.

Hows your kino?

Post: #15

(03-10-2015 03:01 PM)themilkman Wrote:  1) What do you guys talk about for 2 hours? -> work, family, where they live, basic background shit that can get stale, I need to improve this in a big way

I hate talking about work and never do it, except if the girl is doing something cool and by cool I mean she's an interesting artist, not a social strategy marketing director. Otherwise, I really hate it. I don't talk about my job either.

Family, where they live, basic background - these are all fine, but I don't spend much time on them, because they are also boring. I basically try to tease out some thread from where there can be a fun conversation. I rely on laughs, dry humor (watch Roosh's videos, I deliver it in a similar way and it works very well). The conversations are definitely not memorable, so don't sweat it. If they're memorable it probably means I have over intellectualized it and that's the opposite of having fun. Develop some jokes with her and tease her with them a few times.

I always go for a make out and very rarely don't get it. I mean what kind of a boring ass girl wouldn't enjoy some making out?! If you say you look good, body language etc. etc, that shouldn't be a problem.

I usually get them on second and more dates and every once in a while I bang them on the first. It just takes practice.

Post: #16

@OP

Written about 3700 words on this, but I can't seem to sum it up.

you need a better game plan
- change your mindset
- get her logistics
- demonstrate your personality
- get her compliance
- talk about her, her topics, her feelings about topics
- seed the conversation with what you've got planned next
- escalate the touching
- escalate the "sensual" chat. (explicit sex talk can easily go sideways)
- act on her logistics

Last try

1) change your mindset
- if she goes out with your off of the internet, she likes what she sees
- if she's out with you, sex is on the table
- the date is a "smell test" - are you as cool as she thinks you are. (no, you're even better in person, and your profile doesn't do you justice)

2) get her logistics
- how did she get there
- does she work tomorrow
- who does she live with
- how far is her place/how far is work/school

Don't ask questions, make statements.

"you look like a Bushwick chick. ..Oh word, you live in Bed Stuy? Gangsta!"

"So you drinking on a school night?"

"Your roommate's gonna be mad as hell when...."

"My commute from Carroll Gardens to midtown takes..."

3) create opportunities to demonstrate your personality

How do you demonstrate your personality?

By now you know to
- tell jokes
- tell stories
- drop little bait and big bait.

But you should also
- do cold reads on a chick
- make bold statements

Statements > Boring questions with predictable answers.

Make statements that require her to respond.

"You totally look like the one girl in the study group that ends up doing all of the work"
"lemme guess, you're a whisky girl"

"Barkeep, the lady wants a sex on the beach"

She's going to respond to your cold read/bold statement.

These demonstrate your personality, but they also get her talking because she's on the defensive.

And the tone of this conversation is PLAYFUL. You're not "negging", you're teasing her. And she should enjoy it.

4) Compliance/Attraction - After you get her talking, you have to get her to submit/comply with your wishes

"pass me the salt"
"pass me the pepper"
"do you have any gum"
"come over here"
"move over there"
"sit next to me"
"put your hands up"
"put your dukes up"
"lemme taste your drink"
"taste my drink"

You can create escalation in getting her to comply.

Why do you want her to comply?

Most pick up gurus are obsessed with the idea that when a girl is attracted to you, she does what you say.

That is true. (it's a very male-centric focus though)

What is also true is that when you get a girl to do what you say, she becomes attracted to you.

Hard to believe, but that's how power game works.

- when you're her manager and you tell her what to do, you become more attractive than the fry guy, and way more attractive than the janitor
- when you're her professor, she looks up to you
- When you're older than her, you're more attractive.

This is why most of these relationships are looked down upon. A man has an unfair advantage, because his mere position allows him to be the man who orders her around. He "takes advantage" of her.

It works on the not-so-obvious level too.

If you're getting her to do things, and she's following you, you've gotten compliance, and you're assured of her attraction to you.

5) Focus on Her - Stop talking about anything other than her.

You've been making statements, and she's been responding. Take her responses and spin your game.

Everything she says, you can focus on the verb or the noun of the sentence, and get her to talk about
- how she FEELS about the verb/noun.

Hamster - "So my cis-gendered ACE friend has a cute dog"

Player - "Is it a really cute dog? I bet you like cute dogs. Is the dog frisky? How does a frisky dog make you feel..."

Hamster - "OMG, how'd you know? Dog is always humping my leg and jumping in my lap"

For extra points, later in the night, you circle back to this little nugget and talk about the frisky dog.

6) Seed the Convo

When you get to the bar,

"this is our first stop of the night"

later

"I got this killer purple haze/absinthe/turkish yogurt drink at my spot"

later (after she's loose, open to convo, warm to your touch - actively reaching for you)

"Hey we're still having fun, we're going to check out my purple haze and feed my pet Gila monster Wolfgang

7) Touching

You need to treat her like a lover from the very beginning.

- open the door, hand at the small of her back
- move her around at the bar.
- thumb wrestle, measure hands, fake palm read @ the booth, pinky swear
- pinky to pinky to touch her hands
- touch the inner side of her wrist, then forearms
- walk away from her, then come back to her and put your hand on her shoulder, or touch her shoulder blade

Depending on your school of thought, keep escalating this throughout the date until you're ready to kiss her.

8) Sex chat

Alcohol is good.
Logistics set.
You've gotten to wide rapport (can talk about anything, crack jokes)
You've gotten deep rapport, "I can't believe that I'm telling you this..."

I prefer to talk about sensual things, as opposed to sexual things. But I couple the 5 senses discussion with touching.

You could talk about Federal Taxes in a sexy way, with good eye contact and playing with her hands.

Some bitches need to hear about you sticking their dicks in their slimy vaginas like a jar of dill pickles. © Shoshanna

A little goes a long way, but I play it safe.

If you go hard with the sex talk, you'll start to filter out the time wasters faster.
It's anyone's guess as to whether a chick that's feeling you would be more willing to fuck you if you were diplomatic, or sounded like a bro.
________________________________________

That's how I think you should change up your game.
WIA

Post: #17

Just saw these replies, gong out tonight and will incorporate this and get back to you.