Post: #1

I just came back from a date with a solid 8 model and I fucked it up. I'm writing here so everyone can learn from my mistake:

I'm quoting this excellent article from Troy:

http://www.returnofkings.com/52478/you-m...it-will-go

Excellent article that every one should read, but I'll take from it the most important parts:

-It's in a woman's interest to delay sex/escalation for as long as possible. She will not do the job for you, even if she is horny, in which case she might simply gives you IOIs.

-Men are afraid to escalate for the same reason they fear approaching: rejection. By not pushing it as far as you can you are just indulging in the validation that you are with the girl.

That and I would also add in what Roosh said "A woman might not punish you for trying, but she will certainly punish you for not trying". Push it for as far as you can, the consequences will be far less worse than if you didn't.

I just came back from a date with a solid 8 Georgian model and I'm still kicking myself in the balls. How often do I get a date like this?

I run my usual dance date game that worked for me every time before. I gamed as usual and while we had a fun night and a playful vibe, and the girl stayed with me for the entire time (this is rare in salsa dancing), I received no overt IOIs. No opening for a kiss. When I escalate further she recoiled a bit. So I didn't even try to kiss her. I thought I could leverage that according to Tuth's first date recipe to venue change her to my place, but she insisted that she must go home.

So I had a chance at a Georgian model and I ended up getting nothing, because I was too much of a pussy/overanalyst to push my interaction. It was stupid, because she agreed to go on a date (I never verbalize it that way, but if you are going dancing alone with a guy, the girl pretty much knows what's going on), spent the time to put on make up and dress nice, and take the train for 40 min, she is at least OPEN to something, and I fucked it up because I was looking for IOIs.

She would not give IOIs. That would be too easy. It's my job to escalate despite lack of such. I had one job and I fucked it up.

Let's say I tried kissing her. She refused. Would I be worse off than right now typing this message? No. I would feel a hell of a lot better because I tried, and I could either retry or next.

Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her?

A year in the game and I'm still a fucking pussy.

Post: #2

@Dalaran1991,

"Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her? "

Yes, a kiss would have been nice but I'm one of those who say play the long game. Escalate to make-outs on date 2, then go for the close on date 3. If she was impressed with your dance floor game and I assume you made a favorable impression on her as you danced with ONLY HER all night long then date 2 should already be in the bag.
I believe a lot of guys exaggerate the first date success on the manosphere, to me a first date is nothing more than an interview. Also, first dates tend to be rushed from my personal experience, and to make a great impression in an hour or two is not always possible. So to summarize, see if you can get her back to your place on date 2. Up until that point just "wine and dine her" and play the gentleman game.

Post: #3

Kiss her on the first date or delete her number.

Escalating too quickly is usually forgiven, escalating too slowly is not.

Post: #4

(02-08-2015 08:44 PM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  Kiss her on the first date or delete her number.

Escalating too quickly is usually forgiven, escalating too slowly is not.

This is my biggest confusion/improvement area in the game, and this only pertains to first (and more rarely second) dates.

The trade off is: 1) should I make my intentions known, or 2) should I leave some ambiguity, and let her chase me a bit.

I've done both, with mixed results. I think it really depends on the type of girl you're dealing with. Some girls sleep with guys quickly, others don't. I callibrate based on my perceptions and instincts, but I think escalation at any costs can backfire in a variety of circumstances.

Post: #5

(02-08-2015 08:41 PM)TripleG Wrote:  @Dalaran1991,

"Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her? "

Yes, a kiss would have been nice but I'm one of those who say play the long game. Escalate to make-outs on date 2, then go for the close on date 3. If she was impressed with your dance floor game and I assume you made a favorable impression on her as you danced with ONLY HER all night long then date 2 should already be in the bag.
I believe a lot of guys exaggerate the first date success on the manosphere, to me a first date is nothing more than an interview. Also, first dates tend to be rushed from my personal experience, and to make a great impression in an hour or two is not always possible. So to summarize, see if you can get her back to your place on date 2. Up until that point just "wine and dine her" and play the gentleman game.

I wish this had been the case. But nowadays even if you banged the girl there's no guarantee of seeing her again, so the idea is really to make the most out of the time you are with her.

I once landed a solid 8 SNL, we went on a 2nd date that went particularly well, then she just disappeared for no reason.

The thing with long game is that, in big cities like Paris/NY girls really have shit tons of options and also ADHD. They are attracted to a dozen guys every week so even if you create a lot of attraction that still no guarantee.

I also notice girls are getting a lot more impatient and less tolerant of error. Unless your SMV is at least 2 notches higher, she won't leave you with a lot of time to work with.

The other day in dance there was this cute Belgian girl who was begging me to take her dancing, my frame was good and we were teasing like crazy. Then when I texted her she took 2 days to respond with a no.

That said I'm certainly continuing gaming this Georgian hottie, but I won't bet my ass on anything...

Post: #6

Agree with the mantra of better to beg for forgiveness than wonder what if.

Post: #7

(02-08-2015 08:41 PM)TripleG Wrote:  @Dalaran1991,

"Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her? "

I sympathize with holding yourself to high standards of assertiveness, but honestly I think your chances of getting her on a second date after not getting a kiss are still better than they were before you met her.

Think positive, people like me who aren't too bright find it works great!!!

Post: #8

(02-08-2015 08:44 PM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  Kiss her on the first date or delete her number.

Escalating too quickly is usually forgiven, escalating too slowly is not.

nah.. too self judgmental.

Why be JUDGmental, when you can just be MENTAL!?

Give Zerofucks by day, Zerofucks by night,
Zerofucks if she's bitchy, Zerofucks if she's nice!
Say the first thing out of your mouth,
Zerofucks if it goes good, Zerofucks if it goes South!!

Post: #9

(02-09-2015 09:08 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(02-08-2015 08:41 PM)TripleG Wrote:  @Dalaran1991,

"Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her? "

I sympathize with holding yourself to high standards of assertiveness, but honestly I think your chances of getting her on a second date after not getting a kiss are still better than they were before you met her.

Think positive, people like me who aren't too bright find it works great!!!

What do you mean by this and "giving zero fuck"? Should I keep asking girls to go hang out even if she flaked dozen times before because I don't care if she comes or not? That I should not care whether I kiss her or not and just ask her to do whatever I want to do because I feel like it, even though the chances of success is very slim?

Post: #10

(02-09-2015 09:22 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(02-09-2015 09:08 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(02-08-2015 08:41 PM)TripleG Wrote:  @Dalaran1991,

"Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her? "

I sympathize with holding yourself to high standards of assertiveness, but honestly I think your chances of getting her on a second date after not getting a kiss are still better than they were before you met her.

Think positive, people like me who aren't too bright find it works great!!!

What do you mean by this and "giving zero fuck"? Should I keep asking girls to go hang out even if she flaked dozen times before because I don't care if she comes or not? That I should not care whether I kiss her or not and just ask her to do whatever I want to do because I feel like it, even though the chances of success is very slim?

I'm half-kidding. For me it's important to see the absurd humor of mating rituals and life in general to fully enjoy it. How pompous and pretentious everyone is, and how nevertheless they all disappear.

"Zerofucks" is a word I sort of stole from others, to me it means an mental state which means something like being in a mood of having fun, being relaxed, in a good mood and adventurous. As well as conspicuously absent anger and/or resentment, even if faced with those. To be exuberant, compassionate if she's bitchy, but not want to be around bitchiness because it's no FUN.

To be serious--

In the two scenarios you described--
A girl who's flaked many times: That doesn't sound like fun. So I personally wouldn't put any effort into her any more. Also, because she doesn't seem to want my attention I don't want to bother her.


A girl who showed up once, but didn't show enthusiasm for kissing , but is SO attractive that I STILL want her-- why NOT try and meet her again. The chances are, you are right, that she just isn't very enthusiastic about sex, but if you start to feel boredom instead of hopefulness, that's your cue that you should move towards fun. Which means not towards her.

Regretting past missed opportunities may not HELP You move more in the present, it just gets you depressed and less able to move.

Post: #11

(02-08-2015 07:54 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  I just came back from a date with a solid 8 model and I fucked it up. I'm writing here so everyone can learn from my mistake:

I'm quoting this excellent article from Troy:

http://www.returnofkings.com/52478/you-m...it-will-go

Excellent article that every one should read, but I'll take from it the most important parts:

-It's in a woman's interest to delay sex/escalation for as long as possible. She will not do the job for you, even if she is horny, in which case she might simply gives you IOIs.

-Men are afraid to escalate for the same reason they fear approaching: rejection. By not pushing it as far as you can you are just indulging in the validation that you are with the girl.

That and I would also add in what Roosh said "A woman might not punish you for trying, but she will certainly punish you for not trying". Push it for as far as you can, the consequences will be far less worse than if you didn't.

I just came back from a date with a solid 8 Georgian model and I'm still kicking myself in the balls. How often do I get a date like this?

I run my usual dance date game that worked for me every time before. I gamed as usual and while we had a fun night and a playful vibe, and the girl stayed with me for the entire time (this is rare in salsa dancing), I received no overt IOIs. No opening for a kiss. When I escalate further she recoiled a bit. So I didn't even try to kiss her. I thought I could leverage that according to Tuth's first date recipe to venue change her to my place, but she insisted that she must go home.

So I had a chance at a Georgian model and I ended up getting nothing, because I was too much of a pussy/overanalyst to push my interaction. It was stupid, because she agreed to go on a date (I never verbalize it that way, but if you are going dancing alone with a guy, the girl pretty much knows what's going on), spent the time to put on make up and dress nice, and take the train for 40 min, she is at least OPEN to something, and I fucked it up because I was looking for IOIs.

She would not give IOIs. That would be too easy. It's my job to escalate despite lack of such. I had one job and I fucked it up.

Let's say I tried kissing her. She refused. Would I be worse off than right now typing this message? No. I would feel a hell of a lot better because I tried, and I could either retry or next.

Some might say "It's ok, play long game/get her to another date" The problem with this kind of thinking is that, what's the chance of getting a pretty girl IN FUCKING PARIS to go out on a 2nd date with you if you didn't even kiss her?

A year in the game and I'm still a fucking pussy.

Dalaran, I think you are being too hard on yourself.

I definitely agree that you should push for as far as you can go, but if shes giving you ZERO IOI's maybe she just wasn't feeling you? If so, then fuck it, her loss.

Whenever I feel like Im pushing a boulder up a mountain with a girl I lose interest, because its not worth the extra work for something that probably wont happen, and I also understand that she probably just isnt into me. If I think back to all my best bangs, they all flowed very smoothly. Maybe some LMR here and there, but overall we had a great time, she was giving me IOI's throughout the night and I was pretty confident the night would end in us hooking up.

Medium is the message.

Iv spoke about this issue alot with friends. A girl that gives you zero IOI's, in my experience, simply werent down. Most IOI's are not a conscious thing that goes through a womens brain, but rather natural behaviour responses as a result of her attraction to you.

Also you mentioned shes Georgian, she might come from a very conservative family, where the norm is to go out on a date when a man asks her simply out of respect, whether shes actually interested in you or not. Where the norm is no kissing no nothing on the first date, maybe even the second date, and it might take a series of dates to crack that. However, is that something you really want endure?

Post: #12

@sandman: you might be correct. I would just think that by trying for a kiss you would get a definite answer as to whether to pursue or not.

In this case, obviously not. I ran into her again today at a dance venue. Saw her walking arm in arm with a tall handsome white guy.

So if I pressed for a kiss, I would certainly get rejected and the outcome would be the same as when I saw her today, except that I would know a bit sooner.

Fuck this shit *grab vodka* *impose self-control* *MUST. NOT. TALK. ABOUT. RACE. AND. LOOKS*

Post: #13

(02-09-2015 05:19 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  @sandman: you might be correct. I would just think that by trying for a kiss you would get a definite answer as to whether to pursue or not.

In this case, obviously not. I ran into her again today at a dance venue. Saw her walking arm in arm with a tall handsome white guy.

So if I pressed for a kiss, I would certainly get rejected and the outcome would be the same as when I saw her today, except that I would know a bit sooner.

Fuck this shit *grab vodka* *impose self-control* *MUST. NOT. TALK. ABOUT. RACE. AND. LOOKS*

I'm wondering what an '8' model looks like, but if she is professional model, she has economized only on her (eventually fading) looks. I'd guess this type is the hardest to game beyond a ONS, push hard and when it fails, have a laugh, cause that's prob not the type of girl you want to lock down.

Post: #14

I also try to mentally walk through escalating with attractive/high smv girls if I have the chance: a general strategy I employ when kayaking hard whitewater, but it seems to help with most unnerving situations.

Post: #15

I think you are being too hard on yourself, I was reading a post by Lizard of Oz in the lounge about shamelessness and it hit me, if you like her enough and want to pursue, I say by all mean go for it, just think it of something to entertain yourself with and also approach other girls. If she's not responsive, her loss.

I used to care about my fuck ups with girls too, but after my experiences with flakey Japanese chicks and prudish Vietnamese girls, now I just pursue hard if I want them until they are head over heel for me or wish me burned in hell thousand times over.

Attitude is everything

Post: #16

Yo dawg, sorry to read that you didn't get the make out. Don't look for IOIs, just go for it and shrug it off if it doesn't work. Sometimes you'll be surprised just how much a chick is digging you even though she isn't showing much. I actually just got back from a date at a bar. We had a few drinks, shot the shit and made out. She didn't give me many IOIs but I just assume that any woman who is going to drink alcohol with me and spend time with me is trying to create a situation to advance things with me.

My impression from your post: you can dance, you took a girl to dance but you didn't escalate. You're a dancer; this is your realm; Take control. I'm not saying you have to make out on the dance floor, but you can definitely get your kiss and move things forward. That said, don't fret about it. You can find more women beyond her and, in fact, things might actually not be so far gone that you can't get her. However, I think that the longer you make the game, the harder it is to win the game. It's like a fight: the safest fight is one that ends quickly for your opponent. YOu win, they're down and you've not gotten injured. Long fights are bad for the winner and the loser. When it comes to trying to bang a girl, waiting forever to bang a girl is usually not the best idea. I say this as a guy who used to run perpetual orbiter mode and wonder why he couldn't get kisses or bangs.

I see the kiss as a way of screening women: if she won't kiss me on the first date, then she's going to be a pain in the ass most likely.

Think about how many lame dudes take her on boring dates and don't even so much as kiss her. You cannot be those guys, otherwise you're in the lame box. Some of the best advice I got from forum members: play to win. You're not taking girls on dancing dates to get them exercise, you're taking them out so that you can get yourself closer to a bang. Keep that in mind.

For the dudes in this thread: how can I push my dates further on the first date beyond the kiss? I've been on a date a week for the past 3 weeks, but I always wait till the end of the date to go for the kiss. I get the kiss, but by that time the girl is already thinking of heading home to her bed. Do you guys kiss in the middle of the date and then try to escalate them back to your place?

If you want me to make a new thread for this, then I will.

Post: #17

(02-11-2015 10:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  For the dudes in this thread: how can I push my dates further on the first date beyond the kiss? I've been on a date a week for the past 3 weeks, but I always wait till the end of the date to go for the kiss. I get the kiss, but by that time the girl is already thinking of heading home to her bed. Do you guys kiss in the middle of the date and then try to escalate them back to your place?

If you want me to make a new thread for this, then I will.

This is all you need: /thread-8681.html

Post: #18

(02-11-2015 10:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  For the dudes in this thread: how can I push my dates further on the first date beyond the kiss? I've been on a date a week for the past 3 weeks, but I always wait till the end of the date to go for the kiss. I get the kiss, but by that time the girl is already thinking of heading home to her bed. Do you guys kiss in the middle of the date and then try to escalate them back to your place?

If you want me to make a new thread for this, then I will.

It really depends on the date and how pressed you are, and how much she's trying to test you.

If you're taking a chick out - Hollywood movie style
- picking her up
- taking her to some venue - drinks/food/movie/art show/burlesque/monster truck pull
- maybe there's a bounce
- take her home
- kiss her @ your car

You can engineer the kiss sometime during the activity, in which case you either add alcohol and/or excitement as part of the date. So it can be spontaneous (yeah right)

So if she's literally feeling you, like is making physical contact with you of her own accord, she's (un)consicously(?) ready to be kissed.

By this I mean,
- you take her hand out of the car,
- you put your hand at the small of her back to push her through a crowd,
- grab her hand to pull her through a crowd,
- thumb wrestling was my go to move for a long time

The second you hold out your hand for her to grab, or do the loop in your arm for her to put her arm through - and she complies without prompting - she's kissable.

Doing the kiss early in the date, can ease the sexual tension a bit...so it's up to you to ramp it back up as the date starts to wind down.

So going in for the kiss and denying her is a good way to do it.
- Heavy flirting
- Getting handsy
- Touching the goods in public with plausible deniability (the type of thing that would get you arrested on a train if you did it to a stranger)

And as long as you're seeding the present activity with a future and fun later activity, you can give her a reason to come back to your spot, or stay in the car a little bit longer when you drop you off at hers.

WIA

Post: #19

^ Thanks for that. It's getting bookmarked for further study.

Post: #20

Quote:Yo dawg, sorry to read that you didn't get the make out. Don't look for IOIs, just go for it and shrug it off if it doesn't work. Sometimes you'll be surprised just how much a chick is digging you even though she isn't showing much. I actually just got back from a date at a bar. We had a few drinks, shot the shit and made out. She didn't give me many IOIs but I just assume that any woman who is going to drink alcohol with me and spend time with me is trying to create a situation to advance things with me.

Yeah and I also know this from experience. That's why I was so mad at myself because usually I don't look for IOI. What got into my head that night?

Quote:My impression from your post: you can dance, you took a girl to dance but you didn't escalate. You're a dancer; this is your realm; Take control. I'm not saying you have to make out on the dance floor, but you can definitely get your kiss and move things forward.

This is what pisses me off the most. That bar was MY REALM. I got it locked down like my own kingdom. I know the DJ, lots of cool people, and the entire neighborhood. AND YET I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING. I once took another non-model but solid 8 and a lot cuter girl here, running the exact same game and I was making out 10 min into the dance. It eventually turns into almost foreplay lol.

Quote:That said, don't fret about it. You can find more women beyond her and, in fact, things might actually not be so far gone that you can't get her. However, I think that the longer you make the game, the harder it is to win the game. It's like a fight: the safest fight is one that ends quickly for your opponent. YOu win, they're down and you've not gotten injured. Long fights are bad for the winner and the loser. When it comes to trying to bang a girl, waiting forever to bang a girl is usually not the best idea. I say this as a guy who used to run perpetual orbiter mode and wonder why he couldn't get kisses or bangs.

Well I'll be realistic that ATM I can't pull girls like that often. But I think it's that mindset that actually caused me to freeze out. Bad inner game.

Yeah, for lower-intermediate level it's better to strike hard and fast. Maybe more advanced veterans can play the long game, but my experience shows me that it's not my case.

Quote:Think about how many lame dudes take her on boring dates and don't even so much as kiss her. You cannot be those guys, otherwise you're in the lame box. Some of the best advice I got from forum members: play to win. You're not taking girls on dancing dates to get them exercise, you're taking them out so that you can get yourself closer to a bang. Keep that in mind.

I always have this mindset. To the point that if I know a girl isn't available for me she is pretty much dead to me. The only reason I spent time with her it's because she has nice tits or whatever. I think that night I was thinking "she goes to the same venues as I do, maybe I don't want a bad rap as a player" but fuck it, stupid male hamster.

Post: #21

Is salsa dancing really popular in Paris? I had no idea.

I love to salsa.

Post: #22

I don't think you made any mistakes regarding escalation. Looks like she simply decided she wasn't interested.

If this were me, it would simply be funneled into my self-improvement drive. There will be another equally or more attractive girl that you will discover one day, and you can play again.

Post: #23

Make the ho say no.

Post: #24

Bumping this thread again because of the lesson I learned after I acquired a new Greek Ukranian plate this week and banged her so silly I think we're both on sleep deprivation.

Post-coitus she told me how she wanted to fuck me silly since the very first time she saw me. When I heard that at first I felt proud, then I was like "bitch you liked me but you didn't care to give me any single IOI, and was even bitchy to me?"

She and I were in Aikido class together. She has this bitch shield face on all the time and never talk to anyone. I came and talk to her and ask her to train together but she rudely refused. I took it as rejection and never talked to her again until she approached me herself. I then used that occasion to ask her to go to a seminar together, then back to my place and bang after shit tons of "I'm not fucking you tonight"

I pointed the above out to her and said she was such a silly girl for treating me like that. She said "you are always talking to other girls, I knew I would never have a chance"

Bottom line: Push it as far as it will go because bitches be crazy!!! If you have bad luck like me you will run into girls who are crazy into you but give no fucking IOI and attention whores who won't keep their paws off you but will do nothing but waste your time. Pushing forward is the only way to screen and close.