Post: #76

A sobering fact is that would have Eastern Europe been any worse off under Nazi rule vs. Soviet rule? The holodomor was magnitudes worse than any Nazi prison camps. But who knows? Perhaps Nazi policy would have changed after the war for the worse?

Either way it was a very dark time for Europe. WW1 should have never had happened in the first place. It was the Peloponnesian war of Europe.

Post: #77

(01-30-2015 11:08 AM)Samseau Wrote:  A sobering fact is that would have Eastern Europe been any worse off under Nazi rule vs. Soviet rule? The holodomor was magnitudes worse than any Nazi prison camps. But who knows? Perhaps Nazi policy would have changed after the war for the worse?

War is war, the objective is to kill the enemy and discourage resistance through brute force. Once the dust settles, it's best practice to treat the population well or face an inevitable large-scale revolt. Germany never made it that far, so it's all conjecture. Conquered territories (Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) would have most likely resembled Vichy France, rather than being completely demolished and left in ruin. Life carries on, just under a native government sympathetic to the conqueror.

It's worth noting the scale and depth of both Nazi and Communist cleansing campaigns. Fewer people would have died under the Nazis (again, conjecture) as Communism put a crosshair on a far wider group of people domestically (e.g. intellectuals) The Nazis simply exploited some ethnic groups for forced labor and many died in the process due to harsh conditions. This also ties in with the Holocaust debate; why would Germany deliberately kill off millions of laborers when a severe manpower shortage already existed?

For better or worse, the world would be a very different place today had the Nazis won. I'm not a fan of fiction, but there are some fascinating books on the topic - check this one out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-GB

Post: #78

(01-30-2015 11:08 AM)Samseau Wrote:  A sobering fact is that would have Eastern Europe been any worse off under Nazi rule vs. Soviet rule? The holodomor was magnitudes worse than any Nazi prison camps. But who knows? Perhaps Nazi policy would have changed after the war for the worse?

And keep in mind that the deaths in the German camps took places in the context of a war for survival where there were supply shortages and guerrilla warfare. The Soviets showed themselves willing and able to kill and starve millions during peacetime. So it is hard to say who would have created the larger body count.

In terms of cultural destruction, the redrawing of borders, deportations and Russification permanently destroyed many communities in Eastern Europe. At least the Germans had a historic presence in many of these places, unlike the Russians.

It is difficult to say which outcome would have been worse. But we can probably conclude that neither outcome was good enough to justify the cost to the USA in lives and resources that could have been avoided if neutrality had been maintained.

Post: #79

I'm not even going to get involved in the silly notion of holocaust denialism. Sometimes I think it would have been better if the Germans just won ww1 so this other bullshit never happened. I like Jews. I like their work ethic and the way they do shit and the way they handle their business. I like Jewish girls. I use the North American Jewish blueprint of success myself (get educated, get moneyed up, be cash flush and more).

The world would have been a much better place if 6 million Jews had not perished in the war.

Post: #80

I forgot to include this point in my post, but it's worth mentioning. Of the millions of Jews who lost relatives during the war, if they did not die how come they have been unable to locate each other since? The world's Jewish community is very tight knit for one of it's size and dispersal. For example, most Australian Jews have visited Israel multiple times and take an entire year off to live there after high school, so basically they know dozens if not hundreds of Jews from outside Australia and all around the world. There's a saying that if you pick two typical Jewish families at random, one from Australia and one from Israel or the U.S, they probably won't know each other but they will probably know another Jew who does. My point is, Jews have much fewer degrees of separation from each other than you'd expect of such a widely dispersed group.

Still assuming scorpion is not just blatantly trolling, if most of their lost family members and former neighbours from the shtetl didn't actually die, it boggles the mind how these separated Jews haven't managed to find each other since, especially considering we have the Internet now and that the majority of remaining Jews in the FSU emigrated to the same countries only 30-40 years later, especially in Israel itself where there proportion is huge. I looked it up, 1/3 of Ashkenazim in Israel are Soviet. You'd expect infinitely more reunions to have taken place than there actually have been. You'd have expected a lot the Holocaust survivor descendants in Australia who'd taken a gap year in Israel or made aliyah over the last 70 years to have found long-lost cousins or neighbours while doing so, or found them through other Jews, or found them among the many Soviet Jews who came to Australia. You could also just say they have actually been finding these lost relatives and neighbours for all these years and just hiding it this entire time as part of some conspiracy though.

Post: #81

(01-30-2015 11:44 AM)Deluge Wrote:  I forgot to include this point in my post, but it's worth mentioning. Of the millions of Jews who lost relatives during the war, if they did not die how come they have been unable to locate each other since? The world's Jewish community is very tight knit for one of it's size and dispersal. For example, most Australian Jews have visited Israel multiple times and the majority take an entire year off to live there after high school, so basically they know dozens if not hundreds of Jews from outside Australia and all around the world. There's a saying that if you pick two typical Jewish families at random, one from Australia and one from Israel or the U.S, they probably won't know each other but they will probably know another Jew who does. My point is, Jews have much fewer degrees of separation from each other than you'd expect of such a widely dispersed group.

Still assuming scorpion is not just blatantly trolling, if most of their lost family members and former neighbours from the shtetl didn't actually die, it boggles the mind how these separated Jews haven't managed to find each other since, especially considering we have the Internet now and that the majority of remaining Jews in the FSU emigrated to the same countries only 30 something years later, especially in Israel itself where there proportion is huge. You'd expect infinitely more reunions to have taken place than there actually has been. You'd have expected a lot the Holocaust survivor descendants in Australia who'd taken a gap year in Israel or made aliyah over the last 70 years to have found long-lost cousins or neighbours while doing so, or found them through other Jews, or found them among the many Soviet Jews who came to Australia. You could also just say they have actually been finding these lost relatives and neighbours for all these years and just hiding it this entire time as part of some conspiracy though.

There are a few simple explanations for this:

1) A lot of Jews did did die during that time. Anywhere from 200,000 all the way up to a million is possible. So there is no denying that many surviving Jews did lose relatives. They just weren't systematically murdered in gas chambers at death camps.

2) People just assumed that missing family members were dead, and thus never put serious effort into locating them after the war.

3) Families that had been separated by the Iron Curtain would have had a much more difficult if not impossible time reuniting.

4) Many people changed their names after re-settling, making identifying them very difficult.

5) It was 1945, not 2015. There was no internet. It was much more difficult at that time to communicate across the world, and much easier for people to fall off the radar.

6) Holocaust survivor reunion stories are incredibly common, especially in recent decades as communication technology improved. Google and you will find hundreds of articles documenting them.

Post: #82

I want to clarify that despite my critical view of the Holocaust narrative, I do not deny that European Jews suffered extreme persecution and hardship under the Nazi regime, and that an appalling number died as a result. I do not consider myself an anti-Semite. I have no hatred for the Jewish people as a group, and I fully support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. I do not believe that the vast majority of Jews are engaged in some kind of conspiracy or intentional deception, rather, I think they have simply bought into the "founding myth" of the state of Israel and (understandably) have never critically questioned it. I regard the Holocaust narrative (by which I specifically refer to the extermination of six million in gas chambers) as wartime propaganda produced by the Zionists and Communists for political purposes, which took on a life of its own decades after the war's end and became institutionalized as a new pseudo-religion in the West as society became more secular. God used to be held most sacred, now it is "the six million" who are most sacred, who must never be questioned or profaned.

My views on this matter are the result of hundreds of hours of investigation and reading. It's not a conclusion I came to lightly, or with any sense of satisfaction. I simply regard it as just another hard truth that must be recognized if we are to look at the world objectively. At the end of the day, I am interested only in the truth. Questions of hate, bias, social opprobrium, shame, guilt and so forth do not enter into my equation. I simply examine the evidence objectively and ultimately ask one question: Is it true? This is the process that informs my thinking on all issues, and I see no reason why the Holocaust narrative deserves to be treated with kid gloves.

Post: #83

For those reading along, Jewish population figures for before the war aren't pulled out of thin air. According to the Nazi's own documents, they believed there were over 11 million Jews still left in Europe in 1942, before they began their Final Solution. "Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:" We have immigration records from the countries Jews emigrated to both after the war and from waves of immigration before it. The same way, we also know how many Jews left the Soviet Union for other countries as it collapsed, and how many still remain in the former Soviet Union. We also have population figures for Europe's Jewish population from even before the Russian Revolution. There are even maps showing the density of Jews in Europe (here's a German map from 1881). These are all in line with what you'd expect from the Nazi's and Western historians own estimates from before the Holocaust some decades later. 6 million Jews went missing. Hitler made good on his prophecy, watch for yourself.

Quote:Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!

Post: #84

Israel is an anchor state for various world powers but it's not just for the U.S. It does help to keep certain political narratives alive and well. The idea that Jewish suffering is the ultimate definitive genocide and the ultimate in human tragedies plays well into geopolitical motives. It doesn't hurt that the bible reinforces this view and forms it into a part of christian mythology.

It also helps keep the U.S. evangelicals in line since they believe in the role Jews play too so it keeps the anchor well funded and armed. It's just a convenient excuse.

Post: #85

I'm just curious, Deluge, if I could prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that six million Jews did not die horrible deaths in gas chambers, would that make you glad? Or would you be upset?

Answering this question honestly is very difficult for most Jews, which demonstrates the degree to which the Holocaust narrative has been embedded in modern Jewish culture. You would think that knowing six million of their own people did not die in gas chambers would be a cause for celebration and relief, but on the other hand, so much has been invested emotionally in the Holocaust narrative over the years that it's almost impossible for Holocaust believers to give up. The issue has less in common with other historical events and more with religion.

Post: #86

If you're saying that six million Jews died ONLY in gas chambers, you're creating a straw man. Six million Jews didn't die in the gas chambers, because at least two million were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in 1941/1942.

No historian would say that six million Jews died in gas chambers. It's simply not true. However, any reputable historian would tell you that six million Jews died as a direct result of Nazi actions.

Post: #87

(01-30-2015 01:18 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  If you're saying that six million Jews died ONLY in gas chambers, you're creating a straw man. Six million Jews didn't die in the gas chambers, because at least two million were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in 1941/1942.

No historian would say that six million Jews died in gas chambers. It's simply not true. However, any reputable historian would tell you that six million Jews died as a direct result of Nazi actions.

It's pretty sad but in the timeline of human history it's still just a blip on the scale of atrocities. There's been many more and much worse massacres but what makes the Holocaust so relevant in our current zeitgeist? It's purely political. The industrial scale of the holocaust is relevant but it shouldn't be at the forefront of every discussion about conflict or human nature. It's just what it was..another horrible event.

In the modern era, it's become an ethnic movement in politics and society in the U.S. to subvert foreign policy under the guise of religion.

So many people are suckered into this.

Post: #88

(01-30-2015 01:15 PM)scorpion Wrote:  I'm just curious, Deluge, if I could prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that six million Jews did not die horrible deaths in gas chambers, would that make you glad? Or would you be upset?

In all honesty I'd be very happy if you could prove that 5,999,999 were murdered as opposed to 6,000,000. That's what makes so laudable the actions of many (including many clergymen) across Europe to save those at risk of being interned and potentially murdered...one life saved is to be celebrated.

Quote:There's been many more and much worse massacres but what makes the Holocaust so relevant in our current zeitgeist?

That's a decent question. The way I see it, it's especially notable because of a.) the unprecedented scientific, industrial methods that were used; b.) the fact that it happened or was even contemplated in a modern western society; c.) the fact that it caused one of the continent's largest and bloodiest ethnic migrations in history since the fall of the Roman Empire

Post: #89

(01-30-2015 01:23 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  It's pretty sad but in the timeline of human history it's still just a blip on the scale of atrocities. There's been many more and much worse massacres but what makes the Holocaust so relevant in our current zeitgeist? It's purely political. The industrial scale of the holocaust is relevant but it shouldn't be at the forefront of every discussion about conflict or human nature. It's just what it was..another horrible event.

I think a lot of it is based on the stranglehold that World War II still has on the American mind, even 70 years later.

Post: #90

(01-30-2015 01:15 PM)scorpion Wrote:  I'm just curious, Deluge, if I could prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that six million Jews did not die horrible deaths in gas chambers, would that make you glad? Or would you be upset?

Answering this question honestly is very difficult for most Jews, which demonstrates the degree to which the Holocaust narrative has been embedded in modern Jewish culture. You would think that knowing six million of their own people did not die in gas chambers would be a cause for celebration and relief, but on the other hand, so much has been invested emotionally in the Holocaust narrative over the years that it's almost impossible for Holocaust believers to give up. The issue has less in common with other historical events and more with religion.

I'd be glad that 6 million people didn't die, it's kind of fucked up you'd even have to ask. And I'm not Jewish by the way.

Now for some questions that are actually relevant, I want to know if you have an explanation for wealth of evidence relating to Europe's Jewish population before the Holocaust. Were the Nazi's own estimates for the number of Jews they needed a Final Solution for grossly exaggerated? And all the pre Russian Revolution records too? As well as America, Israel etc's immigration records? What do you think of the video of Hitler telling the Reichstag in 1939 that the Jews would be annihilated if a war broke out?

(01-30-2015 01:18 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  If you're saying that six million Jews died ONLY in gas chambers, you're creating a straw man. Six million Jews didn't die in the gas chambers, because at least two million were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in 1941/1942.

No historian would say that six million Jews died in gas chambers. It's simply not true. However, any reputable historian would tell you that six million Jews died as a direct result of Nazi actions.

I don't think he seriously meant all 6 million died in gas chambers.

(01-30-2015 01:23 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  It's pretty sad but in the timeline of human history it's still just a blip on the scale of atrocities. There's been many more and much worse massacres but what makes the Holocaust so relevant in our current zeitgeist? It's purely political. The industrial scale of the holocaust is relevant but it shouldn't be at the forefront of every discussion about conflict or human nature. It's just what it was..another horrible event.

This is my position also. Even during WW2 itself the Japanese committed some crazy barbarity in China that no one outside those countries ever talk about. I visited the main museum on it once, hard not to walk away shellshocked for days afterwards. I'll be in Poland later this year, maybe I'll visit Auschwitz and see how it compares.

Post: #91

^^ You can never be sure. Holocaust "skeptics" (i.e. deniers) will often make factual statements (like six million not being gassed, which is true) and then try to extend that to "six million Jews didn't die."

Post: #92

I'm pretty certain that, on whatever scale, Holocaust happened and the gas showers were used. I watched too many graphic documentaries to believe it's just a conspiracy. Germany also admitted it and apologized. And it was Russia who found the documents and the camps. I think it's insane to believe this is just a conspiracy on a global scale that involves the opposite sides of the political spectrum.

As for the high number of survivors, there is a simple explanation. There is a reason Jews were not just shot inside or near the wagons, which would have made it easier to kill them all. The purpose of the camps was to get free labor to pump up the German war industry. Those who were able to work were allowed to live. Those who couldn't were put in gas chambers. Killing all Jews was never the end goal, they needed to keep just enough Jews alive to win the war.

However, the fact that it's illegal and punishable by law to question the Holocaust in Europe proves that there is a serious propaganda going on here. It suggests to me that the real number is nowhere near 6 millions, and many facts are exaggerated and distorted to serve some agenda.

WW2 took 60 million lives, USSR alone lost 9 million soldiers and 15 million civilians, and all people give a shit about is the 6 million Jews. Yes it was systematic and everything, but who are you to say it's more painful to die in a gas chamber than to starve to death or freeze to death or be buried alive? Why do 6 million Jews get more recognition than the rest of the innocent deaths all together? I can't stand the fact that there is a double standard to the dead.

Post: #93

(01-30-2015 01:30 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  ^^ You can never be sure. Holocaust "skeptics" (i.e. deniers) will often make factual statements (like six million not being gassed, which is true) and then try to extend that to "six million Jews didn't die."

If 2 million died versus 3 or 4 or 6 million does that make it better or worse?

It's just all morbid statistics mashing to come up with the maximum oppression capital to push onto modern politics.

The number does not matter. Something on the scale of mass murder happened that's all that's relevant. However, it's not unique nor should it be branded into some popular deification of tragedies.

The chosen one part of theology and old testament narrative has a lot of attraction for the religious right in the U.S. it's the bread and butter for Israel.

Post: #94

(01-30-2015 01:18 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  If you're saying that six million Jews died ONLY in gas chambers, you're creating a straw man. Six million Jews didn't die in the gas chambers, because at least two million were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in 1941/1942.

No historian would say that six million Jews died in gas chambers. It's simply not true. However, any reputable historian would tell you that six million Jews died as a direct result of Nazi actions.

Have you actually taken the time to look into the revisionist literature, though? The problem with Holocaust denial laws is that it is literally illegal to voice, much less publish dissenting views in most of Europe. This severely limits the perspectives that can therefore be held by "reputable historians", which means that revisionist work is by definition "disreputable". The David Irving case demonstrated this beyond all doubt: a previously lauded historian suddenly became persona non grata when he voiced doubts about the Holocaust narrative. This treatment of revisionists is unfair, however, because the scholarship put forward by them on the issue is extremely well-documented and reasonable, and has nothing to do with any kind of hatred, anti-Semitism or political agenda. Most of it is technical in nature and focuses on the physical infrastructure of the camps and the logistical operations that would have been required to maintain an industrial genocide machine of that scale.

If anyone is seriously interested in examining revisionist literature, I recommend the Holocaust Handbooks series. Direct download link to PDFs (294mb) is here.

When I began researching this topic years ago (from both sides), I was shocked at how poorly the evidence presented by Holocaust believers matched up against the evidence presented by revisionists. Evidence for the official story is almost entirely circumstantial, whereas evidence for the revisionists is almost entirely technical, forensic and scientific. If you really get into the mindset of being a detective, the conclusion that something is seriously wrong with the official narrative becomes inescapable. It simply becomes impossible to believe that the Nazis killed millions of people in gas chambers without leaving any physical evidence of the crime behind (i.e. not a single body has ever been found of a prisoner who had been gassed to death, nor a single photo of a working gas chamber, nor do any chemical measurements taken from the "gas chambers" in the camps indicate they were used for that purpose, etc...). There are just so many problems with the official narrative that emerge once you dig into the technical details.

Post: #95

(01-30-2015 01:27 PM)Deluge Wrote:  Now for some questions that are actually relevant, I want to know if you have an explanation for wealth of evidence relating to Europe's Jewish population before the Holocaust. Were the Nazi's own estimates for the number of Jews they needed a Final Solution for grossly exaggerated? And all the pre Russian Revolution records too? As well as America, Israel etc's immigration records? What do you think of the video of Hitler telling the Reichstag in 1939 that the Jews would be annihilated if a war broke out?

The Final Solution was the relocation of the Jews, first planned for Madagascar, then Eastern Europe, with the goal being a more permanent relocation out of Europe entirely following the war's end. It had nothing to do with systematic destruction in gas chambers. And I have no idea why you keep harping on population numbers, especially pre-war. How do pre-war numbers prove how many died during the war? The issue is not pre-war numbers, the issue is the difficulty of measuring accurate post-war numbers.

As for Hitler's bombastic rhetoric, you must explain why, if Hitler was publicly announcing his intention to genocide the Jews, historians have been unable to find any written documentation surrounding the Holocaust within the Third Reich. Surely, if Hitler was so reckless as to announce his position in a public speech, he would have no reservations about discussing it more openly in private intergovernmental correspondence? But there is nothing. Literally, nothing. And this is despite the fact that literally millions of pages of Nazi records were recovered, and that the Nazis secret communication codes were all broken. And yet absolutely nothing about the Holocaust. The silence is so damning that Holocaust historians are forced to put forward the absurd idea that Hitler, Himmler and everyone in the Third Reich involved in the Holocaust operation, all the way down to the lowly camp guard, communicated in an elaborate system of code, which is extremely convenient when you have no evidence to support your position.

Wikipedia article on the Final Solution Wrote:The "Final Solution" was the Nazis' euphemistic term for their plan to annihilate the Jewish people.[3] Historians, including Mark Roseman, have pointed out that the usual tendency of the Nazi leadership when discussing the Final Solution was to be extremely guarded. Euphemisms were "their normal mode of communicating about murder".

So basically, we are to believe that Hitler simultaneously announced to the world his intention to genocide the Jews in a public speech, but went to unbelievably elaborate lengths to conceal the Holocaust within his own Nazi government, to the extent that there is not even any mention of the Holocaust in the encrypted internal communications the Nazis believed to be unbreakable.

Post: #96

(01-30-2015 01:40 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  If 2 million died versus 3 or 4 or 6 million does that make it better or worse?

It's just all morbid statistics mashing to come up with the maximum oppression capital to push onto modern politics.

The number does not matter. Something on the scale of mass murder happened that's all that's relevant. However, it's not unique nor should it be branded into some popular deification of tragedies.

The chosen one part of theology and old testament narrative has a lot of attraction for the religious right in the U.S. it's the bread and butter for Israel.

I agree. 6 million or 1 million the horrible event occured.

I am a little late to the party, but I hope no one is arguing that these events did not occur. Fine so argue about numbers if that excites you. But hopefully, no one is claiming the Holocaust is fake like the moon landing conspiracy theories. Or else my eyes were failing me when I was at Auschwitz. Or it started out as an amusement park and when it wasn't making any money the owners said, "let's put human hair on display and tell everyone a fake story of horrific nature that will generate ticket sales." Since there are a lot of Jew haters. I guess you could claim that a bunch of Jews decided to say the same story for shits and giggles. Or the soldiers who freed them were lying.

I do agree with Scorpion that some people are too emotionally invested in their victimhood. Meaning some.people can't let it go and move forward. Not just the Holocaust but life in general. I am sure there are plenty of people you meet who have a victim narrative about something that they just carry around never wanting to let it go like that nut with the mattress. I am not saying the mattress chick is on the same level as the Holocaust.

Post: #97

(01-30-2015 03:34 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(01-30-2015 01:40 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  If 2 million died versus 3 or 4 or 6 million does that make it better or worse?

It's just all morbid statistics mashing to come up with the maximum oppression capital to push onto modern politics.

The number does not matter. Something on the scale of mass murder happened that's all that's relevant. However, it's not unique nor should it be branded into some popular deification of tragedies.

The chosen one part of theology and old testament narrative has a lot of attraction for the religious right in the U.S. it's the bread and butter for Israel.

I agree. 6 million or 1 million the horrible event occured.

I am a little late to the party, but I hope no one is arguing that these events did not occur. Fine so argue about numbers if that excites you. But hopefully, no one is claiming the Holocaust is fake like the moon landing conspiracy theories. Or else my eyes were failing me when I was at Auschwitz. Or it started out as an amusement park and when it wasn't making any money the owners said, "let's put human hair on display and tell everyone a fake story of horrific nature that will generate ticket sales." Since there are a lot of Jew haters. I guess you could claim that a bunch of Jews decided to say the same story for shits and giggles. Or the soldiers who freed them were lying.

I do agree with Scorpion that some people are too emotionally invested in their victimhood. Meaning some.people can't let it go and move forward. Not just the Holocaust but life in general. I am sure there are plenty of people you meet who have a victim narrative about something that they just carry around never wanting to let it go like that nut with the mattress. I am not saying the mattress chick is on the same level as the Holocaust.

Obviously these camps existed. Obviously jews and others were treated like shit, beaten, malnourished and worked to death. A great crime was committed just because of that alone.

What is the contention is the idea that millions of jews were deliberately gassed to death.

I ask, what did you actually see. Not what you were told you saw or what you think you saw. What did you see? This goes for documentaries as well. What did we actually see? Malnourished, typhus, dysentery ridden corpses or corpses gassed to death? What did we actually see, without speculation.

Post: #98

Did you know that Israel was not the first homeland created for Jews? Stalin created the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in 1934.

Quote:Soviet authorities established the autonomous oblast in 1934. It was the result of Joseph Stalin's nationality policy, which provided the Jewish population of the Soviet Union with a large territory in which to pursue Yiddish cultural heritage. According to the 1939 population census, 17,695 Jews lived in the region (16% of the total population). The Jewish population peaked in 1948 at around 30,000, about one-quarter of the region's population.

Post: #99

(01-30-2015 12:16 PM)scorpion Wrote:  I want to clarify that despite my critical view of the Holocaust narrative, I do not deny that European Jews suffered extreme persecution and hardship under the Nazi regime, and that an appalling number died as a result. I do not consider myself an anti-Semite. I have no hatred for the Jewish people as a group, and I fully support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. I do not believe that the vast majority of Jews are engaged in some kind of conspiracy or intentional deception, rather, I think they have simply bought into the "founding myth" of the state of Israel and (understandably) have never critically questioned it. I regard the Holocaust narrative (by which I specifically refer to the extermination of six million in gas chambers) as wartime propaganda produced by the Zionists and Communists for political purposes, which took on a life of its own decades after the war's end and became institutionalized as a new pseudo-religion in the West as society became more secular. God used to be held most sacred, now it is "the six million" who are most sacred, who must never be questioned or profaned.

My views on this matter are the result of hundreds of hours of investigation and reading. It's not a conclusion I came to lightly, or with any sense of satisfaction. I simply regard it as just another hard truth that must be recognized if we are to look at the world objectively. At the end of the day, I am interested only in the truth. Questions of hate, bias, social opprobrium, shame, guilt and so forth do not enter into my equation. I simply examine the evidence objectively and ultimately ask one question: Is it true? This is the process that informs my thinking on all issues, and I see no reason why the Holocaust narrative deserves to be treated with kid gloves.

You know, Scorpion, I don't believe the theories you're proposing here, but your commentary really sheds light on how deeply ingrained leftist suppression tactics are in everyone's mind.

You clearly realize that people assume you hate Jews if you show skepticism about the scale of the Holocaust...
just like people assume you hate blacks and Hispanics if you say anything that hints at innate differences between racial groups...
just like people assume you hate women if you believe in innate gender differences or oppose abortion...
just like people assume you hate gays if you oppose legal recognition of their marriages...
just like people assume you hate poor people if you support relatively laissez faire economic policy...
just like people assume you hate Muslims if you believe they should receive a bit more scrutiny going through airport security...
etc.

The common thread, of course, is that anytime you disagree with a leftist position, it must be because you blindly hate some group of people, regardless of whether your position actually demonstrates any semblance of hatred or ill will.

It's bad enough to slander opinions in that way, but notice that some of the items in the list above aren't even opinions; they're beliefs that are objectively either true or untrue, with no one knowing for certain. Have you ever stopped to think about how incoherent it is to accuse someone of "hate" for holding a belief that, given the current human body of knowledge, has a significant likelihood of being objectively correct?

Imagine you're solving a math problem. You finish working through your solution, and tell someone you believe the answer is 28. His jaw drops and he replies "Oh my god that's blatantly even-ist! You don't like odd numbers, do you? Uggh why do people like this still exist?!" Obviously, regardless of whether your answer is correct, this person is a lunatic. If he thinks your answer is wrong, he should logically demonstrate it, not accuse you of hating odd numbers just for believing the answer is an even number. It sounds comically silly, but this analogy is identical to how leftists react to people questioning things like Holocaust statistics and genetic equalism.

Post: #100

"No Nazi documentation describing the Holocaust." Another bullshit claim.

Himmler gave a 1942 report "Report to the Fuhrer on fighting against gangs" giving a figure of 342,000 Jews killed in the time period covered by the report.

1941 Jager report mentions Jews being exterminated in the Baltic states.

Korherr report: Over 2.5 million Jews have been moved to "special treatment" (German: Soberbehandlung). Eichmann testifies that Soberbehandlung is a euphemism for mass murder.