Post: #1

70 years ago this week, on 27 January 1945, troops of the 1st Ukrainian Army arrived at the gates of a death camp located outside Oświęcim, Poland. Auschwitz is a name that would go on to embody the Holocaust. Of its 12 million victims, at least 1.2 million - possibly up to 2 million - perished within its sprawling compound.

The Soviet liberators - veterans of 4 years' brutal fighting on the Eastern Front - had witnessed unspeakable horrors in their push westwards, including the aftermath of many a Russian village after SS troops had passed through it. What they beheld here, however, paled in comparison. Thousands of surviving inmates, meagrely dressed for the harsh January, many of whom were jammed into barrack huts stricken with dysentery. Quartmasters stores were methodically filled, row upon vast row, with suitcases, clothing, passports of the inmates; categorically compiled at the end of their final journey from all over Europe.
Then there were the gas chambers and crematoria - intact in the haste of the SS personnel that had neglected their destruction. Of course, the sickly smell of death, noticeable before you came in sight of the camp, belied their presence.

The Holocaust deserves remembrance as a gross perversion of humanity - a blight upon a people that had a coveted places as a cradle of scientific and cultural achievement among all Europe. I have known many Germans, and explored the country as a student; they are among the most level-headed people I have met, and proud of their country's standing. For such evil to have been committed in the name of their nation not a century ago is astounding.
That acts of near-genocide are being committed in this day and the recent past in Nigeria, Kurdistan, Rwanda and Bosnia, that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

Post: #2

Quote:I have known many Germans, and explored the country as a student; they are among the most level-headed people I have met, and proud of their country's standing. For such evil to have been committed in the name of their nation not a century ago is astounding.

It's important to remember that most Germans had no idea the Holocaust was even happening. The Nazi's had extremely tight control of information. This illustrates the importance of not having a government keep secrets from the people, and the importance of free speech in general.

Post: #3

Quote:that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

Gentlemen, we're being trolled.

Post: #4

(01-29-2015 12:21 PM)JWLZG Wrote:  That acts of near-genocide are being committed in this day and the recent past in Nigeria, Kurdistan, Rwanda and Bosnia, that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia,

You make a lot of assumptions.

Post: #5

(01-29-2015 12:26 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:I have known many Germans, and explored the country as a student; they are among the most level-headed people I have met, and proud of their country's standing. For such evil to have been committed in the name of their nation not a century ago is astounding.

It's important to remember that most Germans had no idea the Holocaust was even happening. The Nazi's had extremely tight control of information. This illustrates the importance of not having a government keep secrets from the people, and the importance of free speech in general.

Sorry, but that's bullshit revisionism.
It was done on a massive scale, and most Germans knew and approved.
Of course, after they lost...the evil bad Nazis were always someone else's Grandfather...not me, no, of course not.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

Quote:The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

The reports, in newspapers and magazines all over the country were phases in a public process of "desensitisation" which worked all too well, culminating in the killing of 6m Jews, says Robert Gellately. His book, Backing Hitler, is based on the first systematic analysis by a historian of surviving German newspaper and magazine archives since 1933, the year Hitler became chancellor. The survey took hundreds of hours and yielded dozens of folders of photocopies, many of them from the 24 main newspapers and magazines of the period.

Landmark
Its results, Professor Gellately says, destroy the claim - generally made by Germans after Berlin fell in 1945 and accepted by most historians - that they did not know about camp atrocities. He concludes by indicating that the only thing many Germans may not have known about was the use of industrial-scale gas chambers because, unusually, no media reports were allowed of this "final solution". However, by the end of the war camps were all over the country and many Germans worked in them.

Yesterday OUP said his study exposed "once and for all the substantial consent and active participation of large numbers of ordinary Germans". Its head of historical publishing, Ruth Parr, called it a landmark study of the terror. "He asks and answers some very difficult questions about how much the ordinary German people knew about the Nazi atrocities, and to what degree they supported them," she said.

A leading British-born Holocaust historian, Professor Michael Burleigh, said the book was "original and outstanding, genuinely important". Another authority on the camps, Professor Omer Bartov, of Brown University, Rhode Island, US, described Backing Hitler as "path-breaking - a crucial contribution to our understanding of the relationship between consent and coercion in modern dictatorship".

Conventional wisdom among post war historians has been that - as Lord Dahrendorf, ex-warden of St Antony's College, Oxford, says in his study Society and Democracy in Germany (1966) - "It is certainly true that most Germans 'did not know' about National Socialist crimes of violence; nothing precise, that is, because they did not ask any questions_." A common explanation among influential modern German historians, including Hans-Ulrich Thamer in his study Wooing and Violence (1986) is that the Nazis "seduced" an unwilling or passive public.

Gellately, professor in Holocaust history at Clark University, Massachusetts, offers a mass of detail to support the theme of an earlier work, Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, which caused an international sensation in 1995. Goldhagen's theme was that "what the Nazis actually did was to unshackle and thereby activate Germans' pre-existing, pent-up anti-semitism".

Gellately began his inquiry after finding a press report -published as routine - of a woman reported to the Gestapo for "looking Jewish" and allegedly having sex with a neighbour. "For decades my generation had been told that so much of the terror had been carried out in complete secrecy," he writes.

His media trawl, with a research assistant, found that as early as 1933 local papers reported the killing of 12 prisoners by guards at Dachau, the first to be set up as a "model" concentration camp initially for communists. On May 23 the Dachauer Zeitung said the camp was Germany's most famous place and brought "new hope to the Dachau business world". By 1934 the main and widely read Nazi-owned paper Volkische Beobachter was reporting a widening of policy to other "political criminals" including Jews accused of race defilement. By 1936 communist prisoners were no longer mentioned: in a photo-essay in the SS paper Das Schwarze Korps emphasised the camps as places for "race defilers, rapists, sexual degenerates and habitual criminals".

This broadening mission, as Gellately calls it, was reflected in Volkische Beobachter photographs of "typical subhumans" including Jews with "deformed headshapes". For the first time their detention was said to be permanent. In January, 1937 Berliner Borsen Zeitung reported the SS chief Heinrich Himmler as announcing the need for "still more camps" for "those with hydrocephalus, cross-eyed, deformed half-Jews and a whole series of racially inferior types".

In November, 1938 the anti-Jewish pogrom on and after "the night of broken glass" was reported countrywide in papers as heroic. The propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, announced that the "final answer" to the Jewish problem would be by way of government de cree, according to Volkische Beobachter

In late 1939, the year war started, newspapers acting on government orders announced a post-8pm curfew on all Jews in case they "molest Aryan women". That November the first summary executions of "anti-socials" by police without trial were reported. Papers were told to report these clearly and forcefully. In March, 1941 the Hamburger Fremdenblatt reported the first mass auctions of posses sions of detained or killed Jews. Hamburg became the wartime clearing house and Gellately says at least 100,000 citizens bought at the auctions.

After this the focus switched. Most press reports about Jews were about those outside Germany. This was because the official but unpublicised final solution was being implemented. But enthusiastic denunciations by ordinary citizens of Jewish and other "internal enemies" continued to be copiously reported. Backing Hitler discusses 670 cases. By the end of the war Hitler was still getting 1,000 private letters a week, many of them denunciations.

Post: #6

(01-29-2015 12:26 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote:that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

Gentlemen, we're being trolled.

OK, I concede that part was unnecessary, I'm happy to remove it, and that it smacks too much of mainstream media thought.

I think we on the forum are divided on that opinion though.

Post: #7

(01-29-2015 12:21 PM)JWLZG Wrote:  70 years ago this week, on 27 January 1945, troops of the 1st Ukrainian Army arrived at the gates of a death camp located outside Oświęcim, Poland. Auschwitz is a name that would go on to embody the Holocaust. Of its 12 million victims, at least 1.2 million - possibly up to 2 million - perished within its sprawling compound.

The Soviet liberators - veterans of 4 years' brutal fighting on the Eastern Front - had witnessed unspeakable horrors in their push westwards, including the aftermath of many a Russian village after SS troops had passed through it. What they beheld here, however, paled in comparison. Thousands of surviving inmates, meagrely dressed for the harsh January, many of whom were jammed into barrack huts stricken with dysentery. Quartmasters stores were methodically filled, row upon vast row, with suitcases, clothing, passports of the inmates; categorically compiled at the end of their final journey from all over Europe.
Then there were the gas chambers and crematoria - intact in the haste of the SS personnel that had neglected their destruction. Of course, the sickly smell of death, noticeable before you came in sight of the camp, belied their presence.

The Holocaust deserves remembrance as a gross perversion of humanity - a blight upon a people that had a coveted places as a cradle of scientific and cultural achievement among all Europe. I have known many Germans, and explored the country as a student; they are among the most level-headed people I have met, and proud of their country's standing. For such evil to have been committed in the name of their nation not a century ago is astounding.
That acts of near-genocide are being committed in this day and the recent past in Nigeria, Kurdistan, Rwanda and Bosnia, that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

That's a lot of emotional trigger words in one post.

It's also bizarre how you tie the Holocaust in with modern-day Russia, almost as if you are shamelessly and cynically exploiting a historical atrocity as a propaganda tool in an ongoing geopolitcal struggle.

So did you get paid to post this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Inte...ense_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_dipl...8Israel%29

Post: #8

(01-29-2015 12:35 PM)JWLZG Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 12:26 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote:that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

Gentlemen, we're being trolled.

OK, I concede that part was unnecessary, I'm happy to remove it, and that it smacks too much of mainstream media thought.

I think we on the forum are divided on that opinion though.

The entire post reeks of mainstream media propaganda (as Scorpion noted above, it is basically a string of emotionally charged words). The idea that the Holocaust was anything unique and that all else "paled in comparison" is particularly laughable hyperbole. Somehow I doubt that citizens of the Soviet Union - who committed massive war crimes along their march West and who had witnessed (during PEACETIME) executions of hundreds of thousands, the starvation of millions and millions starved and murdered as they were cycled through the gulags - were particularly overwhelmed by the site of Auschwitz.

If we consider these Russian crimes (and UK and American ones) when following your request to "never forget", we come to much different conclusions about the wisdom of the military crusading abroad.

Post: #9

In before the Holocaust debate.

Post: #10

(01-29-2015 12:35 PM)JWLZG Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 12:26 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote:that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

Gentlemen, we're being trolled.

OK, I concede that part was unnecessary, I'm happy to remove it, and that it smacks too much of mainstream media thought.

I think we on the forum are divided on that opinion though.

''Divided'' would be an understatement.

Apart from that, I appreciate you bringing this topic to our attention. I didn't know it was the Ukrainian army who liberated Auschwitz. Interesting. I thought it was Russians. I'm very familiar with Ukraine and Ukrainians, none of them brought up the fact that they are the ones who first stopped the biggest concentration camp.

Also it's important to note that Nazis killed many Germans too, especially those who refused to fight or to help Nazis do their Nazi shit. You can see this illustrated in movies like Fury, The Book Thief etc. True that Hitler was democratically elected, but after the war started the average German could do nothing but turn a blind eye, or die. Also there were several assassination attempts from Germans against Hitler, the most one being Stauffenberg as shown in the movie Valkyrie. VolandoVengoVolandoVoy's post is also interesting. I would have to see more evidence, but I'm not denying that most Germans knew about the war crimes, it's just that I'm not sure if they had any saying in that matter.

Another important fact that Nuremberg courts and retroactive international criminal laws were made to prosecute Nazis, which from a legal point of view is a big deal. Basically they were hanged for a crime that was established after they committed the act. This literally proves the golden rule that history is written by the victors.

What bothers me is that Nazis did the same thing they did to the Jews to Slavs. They butchered Serbs and Ukrainians all the same. Yet history only emphasizes the crime against the Jews.

Last year I went to a little village in Serbia called Kragujevac. There was this memorial building for WW2 victims. When I asked about it, they said when Germans occupied Serbia, they made it a rule that for every German who gets killed during the occupation of Serbia, they would kill 100 Serbs. In that small town Kragujevac, Germans eventually ran out of men to kill, so they started killing the boys from that elementary school, and that building was that school, to honor the victims.

There were also mass graves in Ukraine where unarmed villagers were buried from elders to kids, just because they were Slavs and were considered sub-human. Those people are the same people who liberated the Jewish prisoners and did most of the fighting against Germany, yet they are not honored enough. Hitler was not only a Jew killer, he was a true monster to everyone but those who were loyal to him, and sometimes to them too.. He ordered the destruction of all public utilities in Germany in order to make the occupation harder for allies, thankfully his orders were not carried out.

The world needs more knowledge about Hitler and his crimes, and that means not only crimes against Jews but against Humanity. There is a reason why they called what were prosecuted in Nuremberg trials ''crimes against humanity''. It's not figuratively.

Post: #11

A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine came back after a while. This friend's father is a Swiss man who served in the Swiss army as a medic, has practiced medicine around the world and been to a lot of places, has met all kinds of people, etc. He's one of my favorite guys to talk to.

Even though he's far from being PC, he said something that surprised me (paraphrasing):

"The Holocaust is just being used as guilt-tripping to make a lot of money."

And that's really all it is these days. It's being used as a cudgel of political correctness and as a money maker for certain interests. It's gotten to the point that I just really can't care about it anymore.

It's another reason why I just can't help but laugh at white nationalists who make such a big deal over it. They are expending far too much energy on denialism instead of building the future. It's another reason why they'll never get anywhere.

Sure it was a horrible crime, but as has been mentioned it is not unique even in the 20th century. It is overhyped and has become meaningless through overuse. If you want it to be venerated, it needs to stop being used as a guilt-tripping cudgel of political correctness and instead should be left to be remembered in its proper historical context - a consequence of divisive political radicalization in a once-free society.

Perhaps that sounds cold, but I was never an emotional person to start with, and the passive-aggressive victimization narrative irks me. I just look at it all and shrug my shoulders.

More should be discussed about the Jewish uprisings in the ghettos against the Nazis.

Post: #12

(01-29-2015 01:33 PM)Libertas Wrote:  A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine came back after a while. This friend's father is a Swiss man who served in the Swiss army as a medic, has practiced medicine around the world and been to a lot of places, has met all kinds of people, etc. He's one of my favorite guys to talk to.

Even though he's far from being PC, he said something that surprised me (paraphrasing):

"The Holocaust is just being used as guilt-tripping to make a lot of money."

And that's really all it is these days. It's being used as a cudgel of political correctness and as a money maker for certain interests. It's gotten to the point that I just really can't care about it anymore.

It's another reason why I just can't help but laugh at white nationalists who make such a big deal over it. They are expending far too much energy on denialism instead of building the future. It's another reason why they'll never get anywhere.

Sure it was a horrible crime, but as has been mentioned it is not unique even in the 20th century. It is overhyped and has become meaningless through overuse. If you want it to be venerated, it needs to stop being used as a guilt-tripping cudgel of political correctness and instead should be left to be remembered in its proper historical context - a consequence of divisive political radicalization in a once-free society.

Perhaps that sounds cold, but I was never an emotional person to start with, and the passive-aggressive victimization narrative irks me. I just look at it all and shrug my shoulders.

More should be discussed about the Jewish uprisings in the ghettos against the Nazis.

Indeed. I suppose if the roles were reversed, nobody would really even give a shit about the Holocaust.

Oh, wait... heard of Holodomor?

Didn't think so.

As a little Christian sidenote, though, the Jews did claim responsibility for Jesus death before Pilate, saying "Let his blood be on us and on our children."

Post: #13

I have to ask...even though I've lived in the West my entire life, why the (seeming) obsession with the Holocaust? Is it because white people killed other white people (albeit Jews, Slavs, etc.)? Or is it because 'we' let it happen?

I mean, there's so much bad shit that happened in the 20th century. Why is the focus always on this one particular, albeit extremely horrible, event?

Like shit, Westerners effectively eradicated the vast majority of native Americans. Stalin and Mao both killed 10x more than what happened during the Holocaust.

Just curious, I never really understood the focus on this one particular event.

Post: #14

(01-29-2015 01:33 PM)Libertas Wrote:  It's being used as a cudgel of political correctness and as a money maker for certain interests.

This is the topic of Norman Finkelstein's book, The Holocaust Industry.

Also, the criminalization of disputing the Holocaust narrative in most European countries makes it obvious that the issue has been politicized. There is no other historical event in history that requires legal protection from investigation, and these laws exist in supposedly democratic countries no less. The Holocaust has been a propaganda tool from the very beginning, having been the catalyst for the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel in historical Palestine. It is therefore necessary for Jews/Israel to continually pump out propaganda portraying the Holocaust as a "uniquely evil" historical event in order to justify their own treatment of the Palestinians and generally shield them from criticism for their own bad behavior. Essentially, as long as people are propagandized to regard the Holocaust as being a uniquely terrible crime, and thus the Jews as uniquely oppressed victims, the Jews will enjoy an enormous public relations advantage shielding them from all sorts of criticism. It's the exact same playbook we see in the West today with other "victim groups", i.e. blacks, homosexuals, transgenders, Muslims. Without the Holocaust, it's very difficult for Jews to sell themselves as oppressed minorities in the West, given their absolute dominance of media, banking/finance, Hollywood, academia and government.

Post: #15

No one's ever heard of Holodomor, the Armenian Genocide, etc. etc. Niall Ferguson makes a point of all of these that the 20th century was the century of the progress of prosperity while also at the same time the bloodiest and most brutal in all of human history. How these two contradictory happenstances occurred side by side is explored in his book War of the World which I want to read this year.

And also the Jews weren't even the only groups targeted in this very atrocity, yet it's only the Jews you ever hear about. Can't remember the Gypsies getting their own state as a result of all of this.

If I sounded too negative, it's because I don't like political narratives being pushed and actively used in the accumulation of power. We get a whitewashed and context-lacking narrative that bastardizes the rest of the history and thus causes future generations to make bad decisions.

Post: #16

I sometimes wonder if the only reason it is publicized so much more than other horrible events around the world is because it was Jews. Of course if you mention this to the average person they will think your evil because they don't even know of other tragedies and assume this is "the worst"

Post: #17

To understand Holodomor you have to distract the communism worshipping ideologues and realize that FDR recognized the ussr after they starved millions.

Post: #18

(01-29-2015 02:08 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  Like shit, Westerners effectively eradicated the vast majority of native Americans.

We're bombarded with this crap and noble savage bullshit all the time in the US, especially on Columbus Day. Disease killed the most Native Americans and it was not intentional.

Just more socialist guilt-tripping that usually sounds something like this:

Post: #19

(01-29-2015 01:22 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 12:35 PM)JWLZG Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 12:26 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote:that anti-Semitism is on the rise and as we face an increasingly oppressive and belligerent Russia, it's all the more imperative that we never forget such blights on our past, and take steps to ensure that evil on this scale will never happen.

Gentlemen, we're being trolled.

OK, I concede that part was unnecessary, I'm happy to remove it, and that it smacks too much of mainstream media thought.

I think we on the forum are divided on that opinion though.

''Divided'' would be an understatement.

Apart from that, I appreciate you bringing this topic to our attention. I didn't know it was the Ukrainian army who liberated Auschwitz. Interesting. I thought it was Russians. I'm very familiar with Ukraine and Ukrainians, none of them brought up the fact that they are the ones who first stopped the biggest concentration camp.

Also it's important to note that Nazis killed many Germans too, especially those who refused to fight or to help Nazis do their Nazi shit. You can see this illustrated in movies like Fury, The Book Thief etc. True that Hitler was democratically elected, but after the war started the average German could do nothing but turn a blind eye, or die. Also there were several assassination attempts from Germans against Hitler, the most one being Stauffenberg as shown in the movie Valkyrie. VolandoVengoVolandoVoy's post is also interesting. I would have to see more evidence, but I'm not denying that most Germans knew about the war crimes, it's just that I'm not sure if they had any saying in that matter.

Another important fact that Nuremberg courts and retroactive international criminal laws were made to prosecute Nazis, which from a legal point of view is a big deal. Basically they were hanged for a crime that was established after they committed the act. This literally proves the golden rule that history is written by the victors.

What bothers me is that Nazis did the same thing they did to the Jews to Slavs. They butchered Serbs and Ukrainians all the same. Yet history only emphasizes the crime against the Jews.

Last year I went to a little village in Serbia called Kragujevac. There was this memorial building for WW2 victims. When I asked about it, they said when Germans occupied Serbia, they made it a rule that for every German who gets killed during the occupation of Serbia, they would kill 100 Serbs. In that small town Kragujevac, Germans eventually ran out of men to kill, so they started killing the boys from that elementary school, and that building was that school, to honor the victims.

There were also mass graves in Ukraine where unarmed villagers were buried from elders to kids, just because they were Slavs and were considered sub-human. Those people are the same people who liberated the Jewish prisoners and did most of the fighting against Germany, yet they are not honored enough. Hitler was not only a Jew killer, he was a true monster to everyone but those who were loyal to him, and sometimes to them too.. He ordered the destruction of all public utilities in Germany in order to make the occupation harder for allies, thankfully his orders were not carried out.

The world needs more knowledge about Hitler and his crimes, and that means not only crimes against Jews but against Humanity. There is a reason why they called what were prosecuted in Nuremberg trials ''crimes against humanity''. It's not figuratively.

That's because there was no "1st Ukrainian army", it was the 1st Ukrainian Front (previously known as the Voronezh Front) and much like all other red army formations, it consisted of every swinging dick from the SSRs from Russians,Ukrainians,Kazakhs,Georgians,etc(Russians were the largest chunk though). All three of it's main commanders(Konev,Zhukov and Vatutin) were Russians.

The notion that it was a "Ukrainian army" is a recent troll job on the part of the government of Poland and what's more amusing is that the Germans recruited western ukrainians as personnel for these camps.

Post: #20

(01-29-2015 02:08 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  I have to ask...even though I've lived in the West my entire life, why the (seeming) obsession with the Holocaust? Is it because white people killed other white people (albeit Jews, Slavs, etc.)? Or is it because 'we' let it happen?

I mean, there's so much bad shit that happened in the 20th century. Why is the focus always on this one particular, albeit extremely horrible, event?

Like shit, Westerners effectively eradicated the vast majority of native Americans. Stalin and Mao both killed 10x more than what happened during the Holocaust.

Just curious, I never really understood the focus on this one particular event.

It's because a lot of Jews work in the media. If a bunch of gypsies worked in the media, we'd hear more about the gypsies than the Jews.

Post: #21

Largest genocide in history has been whitewashed from the books. Muslim genocide of Hindus in India.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/bigg...ed-history

It's brilliant. Obama was just in India a few days ago and gave a speech to the Hindu right about how they need to uphold their "freedom of religion" clause in the constitution [speaking for the muslims mainly].

Post: #22

^^^
BNP are a racist organisation. I wouldn't use their site as a source.

Post: #23

Also the holocaust is used as the icing on the cake for how heterosexual male Europeans are, meanwhile the Mongols basically destroyed Islamic civilization in central Asia and the Middle East and those areas still haven't recovered to this day.

Edit: I read it as "BBC" for some reason. Yeah, the BNP probably isn't the best source to use.

Though......is the BBC that much better?

Post: #24

Well ignore the source. It's still a fact you can look up in scholarly articles.

Post: #25

And what Isreal does today is ironic.