Post: #26

(01-25-2015 06:52 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 06:50 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 06:42 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  So should the Greek women be allowed to retire at 50 with a full pension and sit on their asses for another 40 years

A more interesting question would be:

Should the Greek children be forced to grow up malnourished to atone for the sins of some older Greeks?

It is obvious that the Greek state needs some major changes, but starving the population may be a bit too radical and pointless.

The Greeks don't want to change, obviously. This vote said so. If the EU was wise they would kick them out and let them figure it out for themselves.

This whole liberal women's equality is a disaster reaching the breaking point.

Who should they have voted for in your opinion, if they wanted proper change to their economy? The same old parties who've gotten them and kept them in this shit jam? Golden Dawn?

Post: #27

(01-25-2015 07:28 PM)Blobert Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 06:52 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 06:50 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 06:42 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  So should the Greek women be allowed to retire at 50 with a full pension and sit on their asses for another 40 years

A more interesting question would be:

Should the Greek children be forced to grow up malnourished to atone for the sins of some older Greeks?

It is obvious that the Greek state needs some major changes, but starving the population may be a bit too radical and pointless.

The Greeks don't want to change, obviously. This vote said so. If the EU was wise they would kick them out and let them figure it out for themselves.

This whole liberal women's equality is a disaster reaching the breaking point.

Who should they have voted for in your opinion, if they wanted proper change to their economy? The same old parties who've gotten them and kept them in this shit jam? Golden Dawn?

I don't know who ran or what they stood for. But the only way to fix this mess is to get women back in the kitchen where they belong, get rid of their beyond ridiculous regulations and grow their economy.

Their wealthy elite use the govt. to crush small business, like you see in all countries. But the extreme in Greece is beyond parallel.

Govt. can't fix this mess, in fact Govt. created this mess.

Post: #28

Maybe this is how the world collapse will unfold. As things get worse, people will turn to the radical left far sooner than they will the radical right. Doubling down until everything is in ruins. I'm not saying that the right is the answer, although I'm more sympathetic that way. But there will be at least a generation more before anything right-wing actually sweeps Europe.

Post: #29

(01-25-2015 07:25 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  People in here have forgotten the gargantuan 1.1 trillion Euro QE program. The EU has one more big shot to get things right and if the initial 1.1 trillion does'nt get inflation to 2% they say it will continue until it does so.

This is the madhouse that for a decade or more has not been audited, has taken economic powers away from countries that needed it most and decided "no more for you" to the likes of Greece, Spain, portugal and Italy.

I hope the Greek politicians leave the EU, it will be painful but they will recover and go back to their lackluster ways eventually but to stay in a political institution which denies any movement just to appease the bankers and credit owners is not going to work.

The youth unemployment rate is above 20%. That alone should worry the winning party to mobilise. Everytime in history a country has had poor prospects for its younger generations the country underwent massive upheaval.

Your figures are way off. If the youth unemployment rate was only 20% Greece would be ecstatic.
It is actually in excess of 50%, and the overall unemployment rate is close to 30%.

Post: #30

I almost bought a shitload of Euro's after the Swiss National Bank unpegged the franc last week, now I'm glad I didn't. I wonder how much lower it will fall.

Post: #31

Post: #32

Sure they have roots in Greece's communist party but disrupting the Eurozone is highly respectable

Post: #33

Here's a Greek lesson.

1. They hate you.

2. They lie about everything

3. Entitled as hell and still hate you

4. Lazy

Post: #34

Things were getting out of control in Greece.









In many ways, the austerity was tearing Greece apart and had to end.

The outcome of these elections was only a surprise to the out-of-touch bureaucrats in Brussels.

Post: #35

Yeah umm don't feel bad for those brat protesters who may have lost the luxury of sitting around from 20 to 30 pondering what kind of job they might like.

And a big fuck you from me Greece for stealing my us passport two times.

Post: #36

(01-25-2015 09:57 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Here's a Greek lesson.

1. They hate you.

2. They lie about everything

3. Entitled as hell and still hate you

4. Lazy

Have a feeling those are all connected

Post: #37

My thoughts on this:

1. I'm not a fan of democracy, and I'm certainly not a fan of the far-left, but you take your victories where you can. If this is the first crack in the EU/globalist project, then I'll take it. I have been eagerly awaiting these very results for weeks now. The twenty fifth of January has been on my calendar for some time.

2. For that very reason, the powers in the EU/Troika absolutely cannot let Greece leave because there are a number of other elections coming up this year (UK in May; Spain, which has also suffered economically, in December). Anti-establishment parties are on the march in Europe right now. It doesn't matter that they often have widely different reasons for existing, and wildly different objectives (including some that are diametrically opposed). What matters is that if one bolts, it could embolden the others and lead to a rush for the exits. The globalist elite know this and cannot allow the risk of even one of them making a run for it.

My guess is then that to some extent, concessions will be made to Greece. The trouble is that that will make no one happy, and will actually make everyone unhappy. If Syriza doesn't deliver the full deal and is seen to sell out even one iota, Greeks will be livid. Likewise, if Greece is seen to get a free pass, Germans and other Northern Europeans will also be livid (and scared that every other ailing nation will play "chicken" with them). This will create massive headaches for Merkel and her ilk in the north.

I see this entire situation as a case of there being no good guys, and no good options. Yes, the Troika are a bunch of pricks. However, the Greeks are also a bunch of lazy, entitled pricks living in a fantasy land. As others have mentioned, you can't work twenty five hours a week, retire at fifty, engage in a massive amount of black market activity AND expect a well-funded state to provide you with all sorts of social programmes. If you want to live like Germans or Finns then you need to act like Germans or Finns. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

This gets to the fundamental flaw with the European project, and more broadly, the globalist project. Greeks are not Germans. Whether for genetic, cultural or governmental/bureaucratic reasons, Greece has a lot more in common with the dysfunctional Balkans, Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa than it does with Western Europe. There is a natural limit on "Europe". We can split hairs on where that passes (i.e. Does it end at Piedmont/Lombardy/Venice, do we include central Italy, Slovenia, etc.? Does it pass through the Pyrenees or somewhere in France? What about in the east? How about Ireland?), but it's pretty bloody clear that it is a long way from Attica. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you try, you're just going to continue to piss off people on both sides of the line.

At some point, Europeans are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Greece isn't really European, or that there are multiple, largely incompatible Europes. Greeks are deluding themselves if they think they can be (and live like) Germans or Finns. Germans are deluding themselves if they can make everyone else like them and have one big happy, cooperative, productive family. It's not going to happen. These kinds of changes occur on a timescale of centuries, if they occur at all. You can't just manufacture them over the span of decades.

3. Now, as for what's actually going to happen in Greece, here's my prognosis:

In any economic crisis/debt crisis, there are only a handful of possible solutions (or combinations thereof):

1. GDP growth
2. Increased taxes
3. Spending cuts
4. Currency devaluation (in Greece's case, abandoning the euro)
5. Money printing/inflation
6. Default

Number 1. is the only "nice" one, but that's just not going to happen without some combination of the others first, and also without Greeks fundamentally not being Greeks anymore. People can say there just needs to be economic stimulus, but money doesn't grow on trees. At some point, debts either have to be repaid or people stop lending money to deadbeats. We've had years of worldwide economic stimulus and it's had little to no effect. At some point, a reset in expectations needs to occur and people in many countries just have to accept that they can't live as they grew accustomed to in the lead up to the GFC. If Greece had bitten the bullet then, it would have been painful, but they would have got it over with and maybe been on their way to recovery by now. Yet they didn't really want to bite the bullet, and others didn't want them to either. Thus, the problem is much worse.

It's clear that the Greeks aren't getting 1., and they don't want more of 2. or 3. (they'll get them later anyway, but in the short term, maybe they can postpone them just a little). They're basically going to have to go with a combination of 4., 5. and 6. (then followed by 2. and 3. when they realise they're in deep shit and have no more handouts). Obviously, there's a fair overlap between 4. and 5., but they're different enough in this case to separate them.

Anyway, 4. would lead to a direct impact on the cost of living for Greeks because the price of imports would sky-rocket. On the other hand, anyone exporting or bringing in foreign currency (e.g. the tourism industry) would become much more competitive, and so see improved prospects. Of course, results would not be distributed evenly, and so there'd still be a lot of pain. Would Greece's new competitiveness compensate for the increased cost of imports? Only somewhat, but probably not enough. Still, it would probably be somewhat of an improvement on the current situation. (What wouldn't?) Furthermore, provided the government can sort itself out on the enforcement/corruption side (okay, so stop laughing and just pretend), it might lead to increased tax receipts even without tax increases, and thus also improve service provision somewhat.

5. This would be a tax by stealth and would entail a cut in living standards as people would lose purchasing power. The outright effects of this would be no different to 2. and 3.

6. Default would mean that people would be unwilling to lend Greece money at anything but very high rates. Greeks would be able to celebrate the erasure of their debt for all of about five minutes. Then the reality of sky high borrowing costs would hit them and they'd see the government unable to wave its magic wand and provide everyone with Finnish style social services. In other words, default is not a magic bullet, though it's likely to be tried (or forced). The piper has to be paid, and if he isn't, the piper is unwilling to play his tune again without a pound of flesh (to mix metaphors).

All of that is a way of extending on my thesis that there are multiple Europes and at some point, Greece is just going to have to accept that it's really part of the Lesser Europe than the Greater Europe. I suspect that at some point, a couple of other countries (notably Spain) are going to have to accept that also.

TL;DR:

*Globalist elites will try their hardest not to let Greece leave the euro/EU
*Greece will end up leaving anyway and will try all sorts of magic bullets which will largely fail (though improve its situation somewhat, though also bring more pain for some time)
*Eventually, everyone is going to have to accept that there are effectively two Europes, and Greece (amongst others) is in Lesser Europe

Deluge: As for buying euros, here's a better strategy. Go out to Flemington Racecourse tomorrow and pick the sixth horse in the fifth race. Unless I really knew about this kind of stuff I wouldn't touch the euro with a ten foot pole right now. Even a lot of "experts" are going to get this one really, really wrong.

Post: #38

^The Greeks are talking about "deleting" debt!

Uh, oh.

This is not going to end well.

Post: #39

Just listen to Mr. Panos

Post: #40

(01-25-2015 10:31 PM)Tex Pro Wrote:  



^The Greeks are talking about "deleting" debt!

Uh, oh.

This is not going to end well.

Reminds me of Metalocalypse.
"We'll just print more money! Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?!"

Post: #41

(01-25-2015 10:20 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  This gets to the fundamental flaw with the European project, and more broadly, the globalist project. Greeks are not Germans. Whether for genetic, cultural or governmental/bureaucratic reasons, Greece has a lot more in common with the dysfunctional Balkans, Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa than it does with Western Europe. There is a natural limit on "Europe". We can split hairs on where that passes (i.e. Does it end at Piedmont/Lombardy/Venice, do we include central Italy, Slovenia, etc.? Does it pass through the Pyrenees or somewhere in France? What about in the east? How about Ireland?), but it's pretty bloody clear that it is a long way from Attica. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you try, you're just going to continue to piss off people on both sides of the line.

At some point, Europeans are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Greece isn't really European, or that there are multiple, largely incompatible Europes. Greeks are deluding themselves if they think they can be (and live like) Germans or Finns. Germans are deluding themselves if they can make everyone else like them and have one big happy, cooperative, productive family. It's not going to happen. These kinds of changes occur on a timescale of centuries, if they occur at all. You can't just manufacture them over the span of decades.

I have a theory that much of the desire for the Eurozone fundamentally springs out of an institutional if not cultural inferiority complex in Europeans generally towards the United States for the past several generations. Not that the US is exactly a cultural pinnacle of civilisation, but it is a vastly more successful political and financial entity, with literally triple the number of semi-independent "states", many times the population, and with arguably a number of different cultures operating on a landmass several times that of Europe. That success, I'd suggest, does come at least in part from its unsurpassed geographical and strategic advantages, but also from the fact its colonists basically had one thing in common: they didn't want to, or didn't end up, running things the way the Old World had. The only colony in that part of the world that did, Canada, is basically three semi-warring states complete with an elitist French quarter that even Frenchmen don't like.

Anyway, the point being is that most efforts Europe seems to have made at unification have essentially been trying to imitate the US and demonstrate that the Old World is still Intellectually And Culturally Superior to all those inferior colonists. But they can't get away from their cultural issues. They are almost ground into their DNA at this point, and they will never be able to overcome that.

Post: #42

The hard-right(golden dawn) is suppressed the hard-left wins.

Post: #43

(01-26-2015 01:15 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 10:20 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  This gets to the fundamental flaw with the European project, and more broadly, the globalist project. Greeks are not Germans. Whether for genetic, cultural or governmental/bureaucratic reasons, Greece has a lot more in common with the dysfunctional Balkans, Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa than it does with Western Europe. There is a natural limit on "Europe". We can split hairs on where that passes (i.e. Does it end at Piedmont/Lombardy/Venice, do we include central Italy, Slovenia, etc.? Does it pass through the Pyrenees or somewhere in France? What about in the east? How about Ireland?), but it's pretty bloody clear that it is a long way from Attica. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you try, you're just going to continue to piss off people on both sides of the line.

At some point, Europeans are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Greece isn't really European, or that there are multiple, largely incompatible Europes. Greeks are deluding themselves if they think they can be (and live like) Germans or Finns. Germans are deluding themselves if they can make everyone else like them and have one big happy, cooperative, productive family. It's not going to happen. These kinds of changes occur on a timescale of centuries, if they occur at all. You can't just manufacture them over the span of decades.

I have a theory that much of the desire for the Eurozone fundamentally springs out of an institutional if not cultural inferiority complex in Europeans generally towards the United States for the past several generations. Not that the US is exactly a cultural pinnacle of civilisation, but it is a vastly more successful political and financial entity, with literally triple the number of semi-independent "states", many times the population, and with arguably a number of different cultures operating on a landmass several times that of Europe. That success, I'd suggest, does come at least in part from its unsurpassed geographical and strategic advantages, but also from the fact its colonists basically had one thing in common: they didn't want to, or didn't end up, running things the way the Old World had. The only colony in that part of the world that did, Canada, is basically three semi-warring states complete with an elitist French quarter that even Frenchmen don't like.

Anyway, the point being is that most efforts Europe seems to have made at unification have essentially been trying to imitate the US and demonstrate that the Old World is still Intellectually And Culturally Superior to all those inferior colonists. But they can't get away from their cultural issues. They are almost ground into their DNA at this point, and they will never be able to overcome that.

Going to be very hard to create a United States of Europe simply because the states of Europe are so different. Different languages, different cultures, different economic systems, different landscapes, etc...

Even in the USA there was an attempt at secession and a civil war, and the states of the USA share the same language, culture and had integrated economies.

Doesn't mean that the EU won't keep trying in vain.

Post: #44

People:

   

Greece was a badly managed economy, but the whole Greece crash was a farce. They had a debt base similar to Italy and much better than the US before the crap started a few years ago. The debt ballooned out of proportion on pure negative publicity.

The crisis was in my opinion designed to start with QE and to establish a EU wide ministry of finance with powers superior to the US Fed. Unfortunately for the Greece people that project is not yet finished.

No way will they let Greece get out of the EU alive - by that I mean that even if they do, then they will slaughter the country economically, so that no one ever dares to leave the EU again.

It's all a fucking scam anyway, because what is that shitty debt anyway if 40% of Greece debt is constructed only be sheer re-calculation of their apparent credit-worthiness. It's a scam, but the suffering of their people is real.

   

Post: #45

My Euro savings are taking a hard dick up the ass with this vote - the conversion rate was bad enough beforehand. Should I keep this in Euros or exchange as soon as possible? I have a UK bank account as well.

"The euro hovered around $1.119 against the dollar, near the 11-year low it reached last week after the European Central Bank announced a massive stimulus program. "

http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/25/investin...index.html

Post: #46

(01-26-2015 03:14 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  My Euro savings are taking a hard dick up the ass with this vote - the conversion rate was bad enough beforehand. Should I keep this in Euros or exchange as soon as possible? I have a UK bank account as well.

"The euro hovered around $1.119 against the dollar, near the 11-year low it reached last week after the European Central Bank announced a massive stimulus program. "

http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/25/investin...index.html

It has broken through all supports - all bets are off now - the support was around 1,15-1,20.

Plus the EU has started with QE and it won't be pretty. Many people don't know that the Euro started out mathematically in the end 90s and back then it was around 0,8 to a dollar. Who knows - it could be back to that level before they get what they want through this crisis.

But there is a caveat - sine that kind of trade is highly event-driven the EU or the EU central bank could reverse the trend quickly through a number of decisions - so you would have to react quickly to that.

Post: #47

(01-26-2015 01:15 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  I have a theory that much of the desire for the Eurozone fundamentally springs out of an institutional if not cultural inferiority complex in Europeans generally towards the United States for the past several generations. Not that the US is exactly a cultural pinnacle of civilisation, but it is a vastly more successful political and financial entity, with literally triple the number of semi-independent "states", many times the population, and with arguably a number of different cultures operating on a landmass several times that of Europe. That success, I'd suggest, does come at least in part from its unsurpassed geographical and strategic advantages, but also from the fact its colonists basically had one thing in common: they didn't want to, or didn't end up, running things the way the Old World had. The only colony in that part of the world that did, Canada, is basically three semi-warring states complete with an elitist French quarter that even Frenchmen don't like.

Anyway, the point being is that most efforts Europe seems to have made at unification have essentially been trying to imitate the US and demonstrate that the Old World is still Intellectually And Culturally Superior to all those inferior colonists. But they can't get away from their cultural issues. They are almost ground into their DNA at this point, and they will never be able to overcome that.

Not quite.

The EU and its practices is consequence of WW2 guilt.

I'll explain:

Europeans(especially EU bureaucrats) are terrified of nationalism. They saw what happened in inter-war Germany. It caused terrible problems.

When a nation fully joins the EU, they lose their national identity and their sovereinty.

The national identity goes when they lose their national currency and have Euros forced upon them.

The sovereignty goes when they allow the EU to have superior legal jurisdiction and other powers.

By following these measures, a great deal of power is transferred out of the nation to the EU bureaucrats(un-elected). Nationalism is kept in check, and an apparent peace is instilled.

As we all know, there are many bad consequences to this. The corruption as mentioned previously here is a fine example. Basically the only people who benefit out of EU policies are the capitalists and un-elected EU bureaucrats.

Another example would be the open borders policy. This has a bad impact socially and economically, on the destination countries. Native workers get lower wages, and immigrants are economic parasites, sending their money out of their host nation, back to their original nation. The natives become agitated, the immigrants don't integrate, and the EU bureaucrats benefit from a cheap work force and a divided people.

Post: #48

(01-26-2015 01:15 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 10:20 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  This gets to the fundamental flaw with the European project, and more broadly, the globalist project. Greeks are not Germans. Whether for genetic, cultural or governmental/bureaucratic reasons, Greece has a lot more in common with the dysfunctional Balkans, Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa than it does with Western Europe. There is a natural limit on "Europe". We can split hairs on where that passes (i.e. Does it end at Piedmont/Lombardy/Venice, do we include central Italy, Slovenia, etc.? Does it pass through the Pyrenees or somewhere in France? What about in the east? How about Ireland?), but it's pretty bloody clear that it is a long way from Attica. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you try, you're just going to continue to piss off people on both sides of the line.

At some point, Europeans are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Greece isn't really European, or that there are multiple, largely incompatible Europes. Greeks are deluding themselves if they think they can be (and live like) Germans or Finns. Germans are deluding themselves if they can make everyone else like them and have one big happy, cooperative, productive family. It's not going to happen. These kinds of changes occur on a timescale of centuries, if they occur at all. You can't just manufacture them over the span of decades.

I have a theory that much of the desire for the Eurozone fundamentally springs out of an institutional if not cultural inferiority complex in Europeans generally towards the United States for the past several generations. Not that the US is exactly a cultural pinnacle of civilisation, but it is a vastly more successful political and financial entity, with literally triple the number of semi-independent "states", many times the population, and with arguably a number of different cultures operating on a landmass several times that of Europe. That success, I'd suggest, does come at least in part from its unsurpassed geographical and strategic advantages, but also from the fact its colonists basically had one thing in common: they didn't want to, or didn't end up, running things the way the Old World had. The only colony in that part of the world that did, Canada, is basically three semi-warring states complete with an elitist French quarter that even Frenchmen don't like.

Anyway, the point being is that most efforts Europe seems to have made at unification have essentially been trying to imitate the US and demonstrate that the Old World is still Intellectually And Culturally Superior to all those inferior colonists. But they can't get away from their cultural issues. They are almost ground into their DNA at this point, and they will never be able to overcome that.

The only people in Europe that want a federal EU are the guys at the top who fancy their own Air Force One etc.

They knew, and were warned, before the creation of the Euro that without fiscal union to go along with currency union, there would be constant financial turmoil.

Greece is just a pawn in the end game of a United States of Europe, an institution that no citizen really wants.


P.S. We are intellectually and culturally superior to all you "colonists"

Post: #49

I've also posted this in the "modern economics is a scam" thread in the Knowledge section, but I think Syriza has stumbled upon something right. Consider what is currently happening in Croatia too:

Here in Croatia we have a new populist (I am not saying this in a bad sense) political party called "Živi zid" ("The Living Wall"), which is politically unafilliated and makes the following claims:

- it is forbidden by the Maastricht Treaty for any national central bank to fund its government directly (primary emission of money); instead, it must release new money into circulation by channeling it through commercial banks, which then lend to citizens and/or government on the secondary market
- during this process, the commercial bank multiplies this money through fractional reserve banking and then slaps an interest rate on that new money, meaning that citizens/government have to return this money to the bank with interest (which is always higher than what the commercial bank will have to pay to the central one)
- however, the money for repayment of interest has never entered the monetary system; it was created out of thin air by commercial banks; thus, all new money is not created by central banks, but by commercial banks
- given enough time, all of the money channeled through commercial banks will return to them
- that means that commercial banks are the true owners of almost all money currently in existence; all money is actually debt owed to the banks
- the logical conclusion of all this is that debts are by their nature unpayable, and serve merely as a tool through which banks seize more and more real property
- the only thing that delays the process is the issuance of new credit and debt, i.e. inflating the balloon further so that people don't notice that money is a debt and that debts are unpayable
- since the supply of money is a zero sum game, people who are currently wealthy and have no debts are just lucky ones who haven't yet been consumed by the endless and unpayable debt

As far as I can tell, all of this is true.

Živi zid wants to put an end to this by:

- giving the central bank the ability to print money and lend directly to the government
- conversion of all debts to local currency
- introducing a controlled short-term bout of inflation (printing) of local currency, with which to wipe out or reduce old debts
- introducing a 100% reserve rate to stop the banks from grabbing their share of money during this process

Again, as far as I can tell, all of those are sensible solutions.

After its completely unknown presidential candidate achieving a staggering 17% of the vote last month, Živi zid is currently being massively attacked from all sides. It is simultaneously being proclaimed to be ultra-left, ultra-right, feminist, LGBT, fascist, catholic, taliban, populist, nationalist, anti-people, destructive, keynesian, neo-liberal, and so on. All of the other parties in existence (including all major media) have united against it.

The whole thing is very worrying and just confirms my belief that Živi zid's ideas are right.

Post: #50

(01-26-2015 04:54 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Živi zid wants to put an end to this by:

- giving the central bank the ability to print money and lend directly to the government
- conversion of all debts to local currency
- introducing a controlled short-term bout of inflation (printing) of local currency, with which to wipe out or reduce old debts
- introducing a 100% reserve rate to stop the banks from grabbing their share of money during this process

Again, as far as I can tell, all of those are sensible solutions.

After its completely unknown presidential candidate achieving a staggering 17% of the vote last month, Živi zid is currently being massively attacked from all sides. It is simultaneously being proclaimed to be ultra-left, ultra-right, feminist, LGBT, fascist, catholic, taliban, populist, nationalist, anti-people, destructive, keynesian, neo-liberal, and so on. All of the other parties in existence (including all major media) have united against it.

The whole thing is very worrying and just confirms my belief that Živi zid's ideas are right.

Holy shit - that Croation party is literally the most dangerous thing on earth for the powers that be.

But - there are some strong movements in Iceland and Israel on that front too - plus countless independent interest-free currencies started by people - also in Greece.

17% sounds extremely good, but remember that they will either try to corrupt their leaders or exterminate them if they can't be bought. Many people would forget their morals if they were given 100 mio. $ or 500 mio. $ in cash in order to sell out all promises as soon as being elected. In fact I would do so currently, because otherwise I know that I am going to get suicided anyway, so why not take the cash and run?

It is a good sign indeed, but a long long way from any victory. The good people leading the party have no idea what they are up against.