Post: #1

Upon reading J.R.R Tolkien's biography on wikipedia, I stumbled upon a fascinating idea of his. Tolkien contended that there is a difference between one's native language and one's cradle tongue.

Quote:Privately, Tolkien was attracted to "things of racial and linguistic significance", and in his 1955 lecture English and Welsh, which is crucial to his understanding of race and language, he entertained notions of "inherent linguistic predilections", which he termed the "native language" as opposed to the "cradle-tongue" which a person first learns to speak.[170] He considered the West Midlands dialect of Middle English to be his own "native language", and, as he wrote to W. H. Auden in 1955, "I am a West-midlander by blood (and took to early west-midland Middle English as a known tongue as soon as I set eyes on it)."

J.R.R Tolkien - Linguistic Career

So, in this sense, the environment forces a cradle tongue (along with its culture) upon us, while many of us will not have the chance to discover our own native language well into adulthood.

Pushing this idea further, I believe that a language can help us develop an affinity for a particular culture or vice-versa. Ultimately, this can take us on the path to discover our pussy paradise.

Thoughts?

Post: #2

Your "native language" is racially determined?

Seems ridiculous. Let's imagine the case of the Spanish people.

Spanish is a language evolved from Latin. Latin was imposed on the Spanish people by the invading Romans. Before the Romans, throughout Iberia, there were many now-extinct languages spoken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Iberia

There were Semitic languages, Greek, Celtic, Basque, and others spoken throughout Spain.

So if someone is "genetically" a Celtic north-Spaniard, Tolkein's idea is that Spanish isn't their "native language" but simply their "cradle tongue" and that they should by all rights be speaking an extinct Celtic language?

Perhaps yes, someone from northern Spain would feel a certain pride learning the extinct language of their pre-Roman ancestors. Anyone might be interested in learning more about their ancient ancestors and connecting to them, I suppose that's natural for many people.

But even England, English is an invasive language. Hell so are Welsh and Celtic, the groups that brought Welsh and Celtic languages to the British Isles were from Central Europe originally.

Post: #3

I am not agreeing with the OP, . However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait. Languages that require rolled r's are Spanish and Arabic to name two.

Post: #4

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  I am not agreeing with the OP, . However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait. Languages that require rolled r's are Spanish and Arabic to name two.

You make it sound like a person can't learn to roll their R's.
Language and using proper pronunciation is a skill, it takes time and effort to do correctly.

Post: #5

It seems that any population in the world can learn and speak any language, given sufficient time and/or upbringing.

However, there's no reason to think a priori that the human capacity for language in general, and capacity for any particular language, is identically and equally distributed across individuals and populations. Language is the product of cognitive and physiological processes, none of which are necessarily identical across individuals nor populations--and in fact, often aren't.

Tolkien's formulation of the idea ("native tongue") sounds silly and over the top to me, but a more subtle, more nuanced version of it is entirely possible.

Post: #6

This thread is the official RVF place to show that you are not a racist.

Post: #7

Hilariously, i can contend to this effect. I've found German very easy to learn along with a proper accent. I have lots of German blood, makes sense.

Post: #8

(07-23-2015 10:31 PM)cascadecombo Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  I am not agreeing with the OP, . However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait. Languages that require rolled r's are Spanish and Arabic to name two.

You make it sound like a person can't learn to roll their R's.
Language and using proper pronunciation is a skill, it takes time and effort to do correctly.

Try to turn both sides of your tongue up forming a "U". Not everybody can do this and it is an inherited trait believe it or not. Now one can make a decent approximation of rolling "r's" without having the genes that allow you to curl your tongue. Try this with yourself and others, it can even be a fun party/bar trick that can easily be sexualized and escalated.
"Hey, we were wondering, can you roll your tongue lke this?" You will be surprised that many people cant do it.

Post: #9

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait.

No, it's not.
It is learned...just like all other aspects of pronunciation.

Rolling r's has NOTHING to do with genetics.

(Unless of course one was born without a tongue)

Post: #10

(07-24-2015 01:07 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 10:31 PM)cascadecombo Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  I am not agreeing with the OP, . However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait. Languages that require rolled r's are Spanish and Arabic to name two.

You make it sound like a person can't learn to roll their R's.
Language and using proper pronunciation is a skill, it takes time and effort to do correctly.

Try to turn both sides of your tongue up forming a "U". Not everybody can do this and it is an inherited trait believe it or not. Now one can make a decent approximation of rolling "r's" without having the genes that allow you to curl your tongue. Try this with yourself and others, it can even be a fun party/bar trick that can easily be sexualized and escalated.
"Hey, we were wondering, can you roll your tongue lke this?" You will be surprised that many people cant do it.

Yeah for a party trick it's ok. If you could do the clover tongue it's far more rare.
Personally in Japan I like to use



Seriously, I have done this dozens and dozens of times and have yet to meet a native Japanese person who was able to do it within the first 5 minutes of me showing them. Is that also an inherited trait?

Comparing that to language is far different.

Quote:Hilariously, i can contend to this effect. I've found German very easy to learn along with a proper accent. I have lots of German blood, makes sense.

So would that make me, or any of the other non asian dudes I know who speak Japanese a special rarity? What about dudes like suits who I assume are fluent in Chinese.

Post: #11

(07-24-2015 07:47 PM)cascadecombo Wrote:  

Quote:Hilariously, i can contend to this effect. I've found German very easy to learn along with a proper accent. I have lots of German blood, makes sense.

So would that make me, or any of the other non asian dudes I know who speak Japanese a special rarity? What about dudes like suits who I assume are fluent in Chinese.

Nowhere in my post did I extrapolate such an effect outside of my own limited world experience. Your yellow fever might have more of an effect than latent asian genetics .

Post: #12

(07-24-2015 05:38 PM)buja Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait.

No, it's not.
It is learned...just like all other aspects of pronunciation.

Rolling r's has NOTHING to do with genetics.

(Unless of course one was born without a tongue)

Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube. The intrinsic muscles allow some people to form their tongues into specific shapes. Popular belief holds that variation in this ability is the result of genetic inheritance. Rolling the tongue into a tube shape is often described as a dominant trait with simple Mendelian inheritance, and it is commonly referenced in introductory biology courses.-wiki

Post: #13

(07-26-2015 02:58 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube. The intrinsic muscles allow some people to form their tongues into specific shapes. Popular belief holds that variation in this ability is the result of genetic inheritance. Rolling the tongue into a tube shape is often described as a dominant trait with simple Mendelian inheritance, and it is commonly referenced in introductory biology courses.-wiki

Confirmation bias much? You omitted this part:

Quote:There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant. In 1940, Alfred Sturtevant observed that ~70% of people of European ancestry could roll their tongues and the remaining ~30% could not do it.[2] A 1975 twin study found that identical twins were no more likely than fraternal twins to both have the same phenotype for tongue rolling.[3]

Also from an article cited by that Wikipedia page:

Quote:Many sources state that tongue rolling is controlled by a single gene. However, as Sturtevant observed, people can learn to roll their tongue as they get older, suggesting that environmental factors—not just genes—influence the trait. Consistent with this view, just 70% of identical twins share the trait (if tongue rolling were influenced only by genes, then 100% of identical traits would share the trait).

Post: #14

Sounds like he's a translinguist.

Post: #15

(07-24-2015 07:42 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Hilariously, i can contend to this effect. I've found German very easy to learn along with a proper accent. I have lots of German blood, makes sense.

I had to take some basic German at school in UK. I found it easier to learn than French. I’m ethnically Indian.

I think the learning of a language is tied to the necessity of knowing it. I know Indian people who have lived in the UK for nearly 50 years who cannot speak English - this is because there's a long established Indian community there so they can get away with using Punjabi or Hindi.

Compare this to my cousins who moved from India to Italy. They all became fluent Italian because they had to use Italian most of the time - there's not many Indians in Italy.

Post: #16

You do learn languages faster when you have an emotional investment in them.

I just happen to like taking chicks who have dark hair and a bodyweight less than half of my own to bed. But then again, i doubt anyone here wants a landwhale.

Post: #17

(07-26-2015 02:58 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 05:38 PM)buja Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait.

No, it's not.
It is learned...just like all other aspects of pronunciation.

Rolling r's has NOTHING to do with genetics.

(Unless of course one was born without a tongue)

Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube. The intrinsic muscles allow some people to form their tongues into specific shapes. Popular belief holds that variation in this ability is the result of genetic inheritance. Rolling the tongue into a tube shape is often described as a dominant trait with simple Mendelian inheritance, and it is commonly referenced in introductory biology courses.-wiki

1. Key words "popular belief".

2. What does "tongue rolling" have to do with "rolling r's" to produce a particular sound?

NOTHING. They are two different actions.

Post: #18

(07-26-2015 06:32 PM)Huey Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:58 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube...

Confirmation bias much? You omitted this part:

Quote:There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant...

Also from an article cited by that Wikipedia page:

Quote:Many sources state that tongue rolling is controlled by a single gene. However, as Sturtevant observed, people can learn to roll their tongue as they get older...

It's just another of those science myths taught in government schools such as..

1 dog year = 7 human years
or
Water spirals the opposite way down a drain in Australia
or
Man made carbon dioxide makes the earth hotter.

Post: #19

(07-29-2015 12:14 AM)buja Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:58 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 05:38 PM)buja Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait.

No, it's not.
It is learned...just like all other aspects of pronunciation.

Rolling r's has NOTHING to do with genetics.

(Unless of course one was born without a tongue)

Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube. The intrinsic muscles allow some people to form their tongues into specific shapes. Popular belief holds that variation in this ability is the result of genetic inheritance. Rolling the tongue into a tube shape is often described as a dominant trait with simple Mendelian inheritance, and it is commonly referenced in introductory biology courses.-wiki

1. Key words "popular belief".

2. What does "tongue rolling" have to do with "rolling r's" to produce a particular sound?

NOTHING. They are two different actions.

So my position is is "based on popular belief" and there is "There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant." Little evidence is better than none which is what you have presented.
So you have based your position on what? That my position has not been conclusively proven?

Post: #20

(07-29-2015 10:18 AM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 12:14 AM)buja Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:58 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 05:38 PM)buja Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 07:08 PM)Natural Born Gyalist Wrote:  However the ability to roll ones r's by curling ones tongue is a an inherited trait.

No, it's not.
It is learned...just like all other aspects of pronunciation.

Rolling r's has NOTHING to do with genetics.

(Unless of course one was born without a tongue)

Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube. The intrinsic muscles allow some people to form their tongues into specific shapes. Popular belief holds that variation in this ability is the result of genetic inheritance. Rolling the tongue into a tube shape is often described as a dominant trait with simple Mendelian inheritance, and it is commonly referenced in introductory biology courses.-wiki

1. Key words "popular belief".

2. What does "tongue rolling" have to do with "rolling r's" to produce a particular sound?

NOTHING. They are two different actions.

So my position is is "based on popular belief" and there is "There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant." Little evidence is better than none which is what you have presented.
So you have based your position on what? That my position has not been conclusively proven?

The sound of a "rolled r" is NOT the same thing and has nothing to do with the "the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube."

The ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube DOES NOT produce the sound of a "rolled r".

You are confusing two different things as being the same thing.