Post: #201

(01-07-2015 02:03 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:45 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Al Sahib-

Well, yes. It was... useful.

So it's totally not okay to murder people for insulting Allah, but hey, you've gotta understand that he's like, super-important to us and everything, right, so maybe you heathens should just keep your mouths shut. Am I reading that correctly?

If your first instinct after your co-religionists murder people is to lecture the people who were killed on "tolerance", maybe Western civilization isn't for you.

Hamster spinning to the max.

Does anyone really believe that murder and violence is a great tragedy in Islam, when Islam is the single religion in the world most strongly correlated with violence.

Words are cheap.

I have a hard time believing islam does not condone violence. There's just too much recent real world evidence that even moderate muslims support or at least passively accept violence and extremist activity in their midst.

These extremists aren't born from alien mothers and fathers. They are people brought up in the same communities but veer into a particular virulent strain of islamicism that has been going on for over a millenia.

Post: #202

CNN is now claiming the magazine brought this on themselves been controversial and all. #victim blaming.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/07/europe...ntroversy/

Post: #203

(01-07-2015 02:11 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  I have a hard time believing islam does not condone violence.

The Quran absolutely condones violence. Here are some choice quotes from the Islamic holy book...

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

...

Islam is a violent faith.

Post: #204

(01-07-2015 01:46 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:40 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:30 PM)Brotein Wrote:  The majority of the British public supported the war against Iraq before it started. This resulted in the murder of millions of muslims, it was a cluster fuck of epic proportions.

The US conducted 2 wars against middle eastern nations, not to mention endless drone executions.

Are all the people in these societies violent savages who can't control their aggression?

Are these people apart of a cultural war against muslim societies?

Or do you only hold these tags for people who don't look/whorship like you?

False analogy. Those wars weren't fought on behalf of Christianity. There was no religious pretext for those wars. The wars were geo-strategic in nature. Religion had zero to do with it.

Really? So the support for the Iraq war was not borne of aggression towards muslims?


You think all of those supporters of the Iraq war were interested in geo-political ambitions of the US?

I think if we were being honest with ourselves (and by we, i mean you). You would know that the Iraq war was conducted because the US was angry at muslims and wanted to kill them for the 9/11 attack. The fact that the 9/11 attackers came from SA was neither here nor there. There was a blood lust and people wanted to see muslims die.

Did you think the operations of the US military in Fallujah were also geo-political or was this to massacre muslims for revenge of murdered American contractors who were strung up on a bridge?

The US army restricted all media into Fallujah so they could commit the most aggressive and disgusting war crimes so far this century. The reports coming out of there speak of a massacre beyond anything else we have seen for a long time.

Lets not pretend that muslims are the only people who are aggresive or are unreasonable. In fact the level of aggression they exhibit pales in comparison to right-wing Americans.

Truth hurts.

There was no media blackout douche. It was a slugfest that the nutbags lost.
I was there, on the ground. Calling it the worst war crime this century is laughable. Tribal wars in Africa, anyone?

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about son.

If the US wanted to put the hurt on Islam, we'd go the WW2 firebomb route. Over 100k Japanese people died in one night in and around Tokyo. Most people don't even know about that, considering 30 million people died in that war - mostly Russian.

The war in Iraq was fought to keep WMD weapons and manufacturing processes out of the hands of religious nutjobs, and more importantly - keep the world's dependency on fossil fuels stable. Yes, it was about Oil, rightly or wrongly.

Post: #205

(01-07-2015 02:06 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  "You did not understand me. An explanation of a reaction is not a justification of a reaction."

Sure you did. This was the very first thing you said after your introduction. This was the most important point you felt you had to make.

"It must be noted that the absolute freedom of speech is not conducive to a cooperative society. We would not say whatever came to our minds about our dear friends' family members, for instance, because such topics can be sensitive."

This was followed by several paragraphs of how sensitive a topic Allah is to muslims.

You can say what you like about how you feel "great sadness", but if the very first thing you have to say after muslims start killing westerners is "Absolute freedom of speech is not conductive to a cooperative society," you're not going to fool anyone.

I see your point. Perhaps I can phrase it this way: it should be acknowledged that the practice of freedom of expression with regards to Islam will result in a reaction from Islam. Within Islam that reaction has an explanation.

I also stated that any muslim living in the west must live by the principles of the west, including freedom of speech.

I am only trying to help people understand the motivations of muslims. That was the single aim of the post. I think the only way to diffuse tension is through understanding.

Post: #206

(01-07-2015 01:33 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  “Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today. I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity. ‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion.’ Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.”

Salman Rushdie, today.

The problem with certain religions is that they even the most peaceful ones can be used for power. And I would not even say that all religions are equal in that regard:

- Buddhism and most Asian religions could hardly be used for power reasons.

- Christianity is essentially peaceful from the base, but at one time was used for power purposes by the Roman Catholic church. It was even brutal and ruthless for a time as soon as it merged with the power structure. That's why the reformation separated it from power and resulted in great scientific progress.

- Islam was never a religion of peace despite all claims to contrary here. Yes - many Muslims for example like the Sufis are very peaceful, but the religion at it's base IS NOT. Could it go the way of Christianity and be separated from power? Yes - theoretically it could, but I don't see it happening in the next decades.

- Judaism - despite claims the religion is in my opinion highly supremacist. You can study the Talmud respectively and see many many statements which are simply highly combative in nature - not militant as in the Koran, but very supremacist. Also there are huge differences from the newer Talmud to the older Torah scriptures - never mind the more radical Sabbateans who are reputed to have taken over the main power structures of Judaism. Are there many Jews who are not supremacist, but are very peace-loving and great people? Of course there are - in fact assimilation of Jews into every country was one of their strengths as even back in WWI many Jewish soldiers served in the German military as they saw themselves as pure Germans.

So every religion has it's cross to bear and overcome in order to contribute to a more enlightened society. Currently Islam is being used very easily to incite emotions and radicalize the population that it is laughable. You have even guys here speaking of "offending" Islam via some cartoons or trying to convince us of the glories of the Islamic rule by pitting 100 ISIS fighters against 100 British men as if war is fought like a bunch of animals in a cage - lions against pumas. War hasn't been fought like that since the stone age.

Post: #207

(01-07-2015 12:28 PM)Icepasian Wrote:  Why would you believe in some hokey mysticism when you could instead make twice as much money? Decadence has indeed blinded most Westerners from having a true understanding of non-Western cultures in this way.

Great educational essay on history, but I think hokey mysticism is very decadent because when you believe it you can't perceive reality.

Worshipping money or a sky-wizard aren't the only two alternatives.

They both kind of suck.

Post: #208

I do have some sympathy for Muslims.

Freedom of speech was about challenging the powerful and saying something important.

Now - it is mostly about trolling for a reaction.

Which is fine - but I think there are much more interesting areas to challenge in our own society. Than trying to provoke a reaction from cultures thousands of miles away. The same free-speech fanatics who support trolling Muslims are often the same people who get uncomfortable when you watch to discuss red pill topis - or issues involving equality.

Penn Jillette had a good metaphor about this when he was discussing the lack of ideas in stand up comedy. He said that it is like when somebody runs on stage at a music concert and shouts into a microphone.

They climb through the crowd, slip through security and dash on stage.

And for what?

Usually - to just shout a few swear words and some meaningless jibberish. Before quickly being escorted off stage.

Too many people are fighting for the right to say what they want. Without actually putting any thought into whether or not they have anything worth saying.

I support free speech. But trolling for a reaction is a pretty poor use of it. It is like fighting for the vote just so you can shit in the ballot box.

Post: #209

(01-07-2015 02:18 PM)supadoopa_paratroopa Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:46 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:40 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:30 PM)Brotein Wrote:  The majority of the British public supported the war against Iraq before it started. This resulted in the murder of millions of muslims, it was a cluster fuck of epic proportions.

The US conducted 2 wars against middle eastern nations, not to mention endless drone executions.

Are all the people in these societies violent savages who can't control their aggression?

Are these people apart of a cultural war against muslim societies?

Or do you only hold these tags for people who don't look/whorship like you?

False analogy. Those wars weren't fought on behalf of Christianity. There was no religious pretext for those wars. The wars were geo-strategic in nature. Religion had zero to do with it.

Really? So the support for the Iraq war was not borne of aggression towards muslims?


You think all of those supporters of the Iraq war were interested in geo-political ambitions of the US?

I think if we were being honest with ourselves (and by we, i mean you). You would know that the Iraq war was conducted because the US was angry at muslims and wanted to kill them for the 9/11 attack. The fact that the 9/11 attackers came from SA was neither here nor there. There was a blood lust and people wanted to see muslims die.

Did you think the operations of the US military in Fallujah were also geo-political or was this to massacre muslims for revenge of murdered American contractors who were strung up on a bridge?

The US army restricted all media into Fallujah so they could commit the most aggressive and disgusting war crimes so far this century. The reports coming out of there speak of a massacre beyond anything else we have seen for a long time.

Lets not pretend that muslims are the only people who are aggresive or are unreasonable. In fact the level of aggression they exhibit pales in comparison to right-wing Americans.

Truth hurts.

There was no media blackout douche. It was a slugfest that the nutbags lost.
I was there, on the ground. Calling it the worst war crime this century is laughable. Tribal wars in Africa, anyone?

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about son.

If the US wanted to put the hurt on Islam, we'd go the WW2 firebomb route. Over 100k Japanese people died in one night in and around Tokyo. Most people don't even know about that, considering 30 million people died in that war - mostly Russian.

The war in Iraq was fought to keep WMD weapons and manufacturing processes out of the hands of religious nutjobs, and more importantly - keep the world's dependency on fossil fuels stable. Yes, it was about Oil, rightly or wrongly.

Since you were on the ground estimate for me, if you will, how many Iraqis died, and of that how many were civilians (or people forced to fight).

Post: #210

But instead they will quote Christian Scripture as an opposing equal, oblivious to the differences in inspiration between the two.

The Quran has greater significance within Islam than the Bible has within Christianity. The foundation of Islam is the notion that the Quran is perfect, the literal word of Allah handed down through Mohammed, and that its poetry and linguistic style are proof enough of God's existence. It can neither be translated, nor altered.

That's why debating a Muslim will have you running around in circles where you eventually just rage quit. Unless you're a native Arabic speaker, Muslims will always defend the Quran by saying "well, in the original Arabic...." This is made more ironic by the fact a frequent argument against Christianity made by them is the geographical limitation of Jesus during his life. How limited can Christianity be, when a huge portion of the Muslim world doesn't even understand the language of a book they've learned to recite?

The books are not equal, it's impossible to directly compare verses.

Post: #211

(01-07-2015 02:28 PM)Plato Wrote:  I do have some sympathy for Muslims.

Freedom of speech was about challenging the powerful and saying something important.

Now - it is mostly about trolling for a reaction.

Which is fine - but I think there are much more interesting areas to challenge in our own society. Than trying to provoke a reaction from cultures thousands of miles away. The same free-speech fanatics who support trolling Muslims are often the same people who get uncomfortable when you watch to discuss red pill topis - or issues involving equality.

Penn Jillette had a good metaphor about this when he was discussing the lack of ideas in stand up comedy. He said that it is like when somebody runs on stage at a music concert and shouts into a microphone.

They climb through the crowd, slip through security and dash on stage.

And for what?

Usually - to just shout a few swear words and some meaningless jibberish. Before quickly being escorted off stage.

Too many people are fighting for the right to say what they want. Without actually putting any thought into whether or not they have anything worth saying.

I support free speech. But trolling for a reaction is a pretty poor use of it. It is like fighting for the vote just so you can shit in the ballot box.

To be fair, satire has been a staple of British (and I presume European) culture for hundreds of years; long before our Islamic problems. Nothing is too sacred to be made fun of.

Post: #212

(01-07-2015 01:18 PM)mikado Wrote:  The problem is that most of the Muslims in the West have zero relations with terrorists in the Middle East. Heck, they sometimes have to go 3-4 generations up their genealogic tree to find relatives from there.

What do you expect them to do, outside condemning these attacks? It's not like they have any influence over what happens in the Middle East.

Equal or greater effort in the opposite direction. For every 1 violent radical pushing Islam towards violence, there should be 2 peaceful radicals pushing Islam towards peace. There is a flow of ideology. There is nothing stopping Mosques in England and France trying to influence Muslims in the opposite direction to that of the Mosques in Pakistan and Iran.

Post: #213

(01-07-2015 02:28 PM)Plato Wrote:  I do have some sympathy for Muslims.

Freedom of speech was about challenging the powerful and saying something important.

Now - it is mostly about trolling for a reaction.

Which is fine - but I think there are much more interesting areas to challenge in our own society. Than trying to provoke a reaction from cultures thousands of miles away. The same free-speech fanatics who support trolling Muslims are often the same people who get uncomfortable when you watch to discuss red pill topis - or issues involving equality.

Penn Jillette had a good metaphor about this when he was discussing the lack of ideas in stand up comedy. He said that it is like when somebody runs on stage at a music concert and shouts into a microphone.

They climb through the crowd, slip through security and dash on stage.

And for what?

Usually - to just shout a few swear words and some meaningless jibberish. Before quickly being escorted off stage.

Too many people are fighting for the right to say what they want. Without actually putting any thought into whether or not they have anything worth saying.

I support free speech. But trolling for a reaction is a pretty poor use of it. It is like fighting for the vote just so you can shit in the ballot box.

The cowardly troll the nonviolent, because there is no risk involved to them and they know it.

The brave troll the powers that be.

I have little respect for most outspoken atheists because of this.

Post: #214

Matthew 7:16,17

Quote:By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.

Post: #215

(01-07-2015 02:11 PM)Al Sahab Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 02:01 PM)zanetti Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:38 PM)Al Sahab Wrote:  Note that there has not been a single instance of an Islamic occupation of a western country, but there have been multiple western occupations of islamic countries.

Your knowledge of history leaves something to be desired

-Spain
-Portugal
-South of France
-Greece
-Malta
-Cyprus
-Sicily
-Bulgaria
-Austria
-Moldova
-Hungary

and I'm probably forgetting a few

Zanetti, you are correct, I apologise for those words. I am aware of those occupations.

I was referring to the recent conflicts in the middle east.

There's almost no Christian countries left in the Middle East for Muslims to occupy...Egypt was a Christian country pre-Islam. What's left? Armenia? Lebanon?

Post: #216

The problem with "moderates":

   

Post: #217

(01-07-2015 02:18 PM)supadoopa_paratroopa Wrote:  There was no media blackout douche. It was a slugfest that the nutbags lost.
I was there, on the ground. Calling it the worst war crime this century is laughable. Tribal wars in Africa, anyone?

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about son.

The war in Iraq was fought to keep WMD weapons and manufacturing processes out of the hands of religious nutjobs, and more importantly - keep the world's dependency on fossil fuels stable. Yes, it was about Oil, rightly or wrongly.

Sorry my friend but you were lied to and sent to war on a false premise. We knew there were no WMD's over there or any capability to ever build them. You went to Fallujah to fight for the business interests of rich old white men who were born with silver spoons in their mouths. Nothing more than that. That does not detract from your bravery but really, your leaders fucked you and your comrades in arms. Same goes for every coalition soldier.

Post: #218

(01-07-2015 12:51 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  QC is right, but Vatican II seems to have largely pussified the Catholic Church.

Also, let's stop the references to God as a "sky wizard." God is Being Itself, not some sort of "sky fairy."

No.

You like to say God, I like to say Sky Wizard.

If you like to say God, if it makes you happy, that's great.
I encourage you to continue.

Just please don't get black clothes and an AK-47 and shoot me.

Post: #219

(01-07-2015 02:33 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  There's almost no Christian countries left in the Middle East for Muslims to occupy...Egypt was a Christian country pre-Islam. What's left? Armenia? Lebanon?

Israel.

The only country with the balls to slap the taste out of their mouths.

Post: #220

(01-07-2015 02:42 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 02:33 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  There's almost no Christian countries left in the Middle East for Muslims to occupy...Egypt was a Christian country pre-Islam. What's left? Armenia? Lebanon?

Israel.

The only country with the balls to slap the taste out of their mouths.

??

Post: #221

(01-07-2015 02:35 PM)Rutting Elephant Wrote:  The problem with "moderates":

This cartoon appears to be outdated, we may need another 30-50 squares to get us through 2015.

- ISIS (1,000+)
- Woolwich
- Fort Hood
- Canadian soldier murdered
- Attack on Canadian parliament building
- French soldier killed in 2013
- Frankfurt airport shooting
- Boston
- Sydney cafe
- Pakistani school

Just a few off the top of my head anyway.

Post: #222

(01-07-2015 02:43 PM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 02:35 PM)Rutting Elephant Wrote:  The problem with "moderates":

This cartoon appears to be outdated, we may need another 30-50 squares to get us through 2015.

- ISIS (1,000+)
- Woolwich
- Fort Hood
- Canadian soldier murdered
- Attack on Canadian parliament building
- French soldier killed in 2013
- Frankfurt airport shooting
- Boston
- Sydney cafe
- Pakistani school

Just a few off the top of my head anyway.

- Oklahoma beheading
- Axe attack on NYPD officers

Post: #223

(01-07-2015 02:39 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 12:51 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  QC is right, but Vatican II seems to have largely pussified the Catholic Church.

Also, let's stop the references to God as a "sky wizard." God is Being Itself, not some sort of "sky fairy."

No.

You like to say God, I like to say Sky Wizard.

If you like to say God, if it makes you happy, that's great.
I encourage you to continue.

Just please don't get black clothes and an AK-47 and shoot me.

By saying "sky wizard" you show how little you know about religion, and philosophy of religion in general. However, feel free to continue showing your ignorance off. It's fun for people like me to watch.

Post: #224

Just for balance.

This game can be played both ways.

Look at how many people the US and UK killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And for what end?

Post: #225

I don't believe this has anything to do with getting feelings hurt and a cry for understanding. Accusing the magazine of trolling is blaming the victim. I have included links below of Catholics in Europe attacked for nothing more than going to church. They don't want your understanding. They want your submission. This is the natural consequences of liberal Western degeneracy and weakness. Bow down all you want, but it's not going to help you.

Germany: Muslims attack Church-goers

http://pamelageller.com/2014/12/germany-...ians.html/

Muslims attack Catholics leaving Church

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jg8EeL7zD8

Christians and Churches attacked in the West

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4966/c...s-attacked