Post: #1

I just watched the 2014 movie Noah, which has a lot of details that are nowhere mentioned in the bible. After looking into it, it seems that this story is heavily based on the Book of Enoch, a book which is included in the Ethiopian Bible, but not in any others.

The movie noah features giants, depicted as fallen angels, which help Noah build his ark. This is nowhere to be found in the bible. However, in the bible, just as the story of Noah begins, we have this strange passage:

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The Book of Enoch elaborates upon this. (Chapter 6,7)

"And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.'"...

And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants..."

This story is pretty wild, and helps give details to the wickedness in the world that so angered God to destroy it all. Part of it was the continuation of the theme of the fall from grace in Eden. These angels came down to earth and taught humanity all sorts of things, how to make metals and how to do magic, etc. basically sharing the knowledge of heaven with mortals, which they used immorally on earth...

Also, before this episode begins in the bible, you have the mention of Enoch, who is mentioned only in passing, in this strange passage:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

What does this mean? The book of Enoch elaborates (Chapter 12)

"1. Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. 2. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones."

Watchers here I think means angels in heaven.

This story helps flesh out the story of Noah, which is really very short in the bible and makes passing reference to lots of things that are not elaborated on but are mentioned much later in various other points throughout the old and new testament. Indeed in the New Testament there are references to stories contained within the Book of Enoch, yet it is not included in the bible as it was assembled.

However you see that in Jude 1:14-15, Jude actually quotes from the Book of Enoch (Enoch 1:9)

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

This line that Jude speaks is almost exactly as Enoch spoke it, showing that this text was at least known and considered a "true" account of what had happened before the flood to Jude.

It's interesting to me to read this sort of thing, thinking about why they assembled the bible as they did, and seeing the loose ends that were never really tied up.

Post: #2

I think the angels mating with humans stuff is heretical. As far as I know, nowhere in the Bible is this sort of thing mentioned. They are spiritual beings not made of flesh. Demons, the same thing as fallen angels, cannot mate with humans either. You just don't see that.

As far as Enoch is concerned, he was one of the few holy men in Noah's family line before Noah. So holy, in fact, that he was taken to Heaven while he was still alive.

Look at the other verses preceding Genesis 5:24, they're just general statements about people living and people dying. The only one who didn't die was Enoch.

I also believe that there were giants but they were solely human. Goliath was a giant and there were other giants around before him too, but the Israelites wiped a ton of them out. Since they survived the flood somehow, I believe there was an environmental thing going on that either resulted in certain groups of people being big or it was some recessive trait at that time.

"The sons of God" refers to God's people, while the daughters of men mean people who didn't follow God but some idols or false gods.

In the other books of Moses there are multiple verses warning Israelites to avoid marrying people outside the tribe who worship false gods. God got really pissed at those who defied this and instructed Moses to make it an offense punishable by death.

Oh and nowhere in the Bible does the "sons of God" refer to angels.

Post: #3

Interesting new texts in Sumerian on clay tablets discovered on the origin of mankind, much older than the bible. The genesis bible story seems to be based upon these texts, but very imperfectly:

"Between 1885 and 1900, archaeologists from the University of Pennsylvania excavated extensively at the site of Nippur (Niffer), in the heartland of ancient Mesopotamia. A great many Sumerian texts were found, including a dozen tablets containing the sources of the Book of Genesis and the origins of humanity. Yet no one seems to have taken much notice! Having taken over the unsatisfying translations of his predecessors, Anton Parks worked intensively during thousands of hours on this material to finally restore the original quintessence of these invaluable documents, in order to expose it to us in this fascinating book."

http://www.antonparks.com/main.php?lang=en&page=eden

Post: #4

Wastelander,

Have you read the Book of Enoch, or know much about it?

The parts relating to the story of Noah start in chapter 6, if you'd like to read it.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm

Considering several parts from this book are later referenced by other parts of the bible, by Jude and Peter.

Apparently for the first 3 centuries of Christianity, you find many early Christian writers referencing the book of Enoch. But at the Council of Laodicea it was left out.

I know of one case of some non-physical being impregnating a human in the bible though.

Post: #5

Imagine the hypergamy if we had to compete with angels.

Who's gonna cover the "angel game data sheet? "

Post: #6

(01-06-2015 05:26 PM)ryanf Wrote:  Imagine the hypergamy if we had to compete with angels.

Who's gonna cover the "angel game data sheet? "

God had to step in and kill them all.

Post: #7

Seems like God could have saved himself a lot of anguish if he'd just made it impossible for angels to travel to and fro. Just sayin'.

Post: #8

(01-06-2015 05:35 PM)Soothesayer Wrote:  Seems like God could have saved himself a lot of anguish if he'd just made it impossible for angels to travel to and fro. Just sayin'.

First time around he just blew it.

It's like page 1 he creates life, page 7 he's already decided to destroy it all.

Post: #9

Steven Quayle talks and writes about giants. He is a bit out there but has done a lot research on the subject. A Military personnel contact him and said capture one in Iraq during the US invasion

Post: #10

^
Bro this is obviously nonsense.

Noah did not take Giants on his Ark so therefore they all died during the Deluge... Read your Bible kid.

Post: #11

   

Post: #12

(01-06-2015 05:04 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Wastelander,

Have you read the Book of Enoch, or know much about it?

The parts relating to the story of Noah start in chapter 6, if you'd like to read it.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm

Considering several parts from this book are later referenced by other parts of the bible, by Jude and Peter.

Apparently for the first 3 centuries of Christianity, you find many early Christian writers referencing the book of Enoch. But at the Council of Laodicea it was left out.

I know of one case of some non-physical being impregnating a human in the bible though.

I read it. The alleged offspring of the angels and the women were insanely tall.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe010.htm

Quote: 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells:

An ell is 45 inches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ell

45 x 3000 = 135000 inches. 135000 inches = 11250 feet

Can you see now why they didn't bother with this book? It's about angels banging humans and producing massive titan children who corrupt the earth. Meanwhile, none of this shit could be found elsewhere in the Bible. Not angels mating with humans, and nothing that damn tall. Goliath, by comparison, was about nine feet tall, like the Mountain in Game of Thrones.

It's a vaguely interesting read but really doesn't jibe with the rest of the entire book.

Post: #13

delete. I'm not partaking in this

Post: #14

Wastelander,

The references to giants that are made in Genesis, what is your take on that?

Just tall men within the range of NBA players? Or just nonsense from thousands of years ago that shouldn't be taken seriously in the slightest?

It's strange that you're saying measurements in ancient texts are unrealistic, and for THAT reason, we should not believe them.

Noah's ark was supposedly 300x50x30 cubits, which is 450x75x45 feet. Obviously not big enough to fit the entire animal kingdom. Yet am I to understand you take that story as true and those measurements as accurate? I would be surprised to hear that, but discrediting one old story for faulty measurements doesn't make sense if you accept another with faulty measurements.

Post: #15

I hope you all realize that this movie is made by Hollywood who although being diverse is still net negative towards Bible and Christian faith.

You should not use this movie to make up your mind about what Bible says about giants or anything else more important.

Vigilant Citizen had a good analysis of this movie on his blog.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesandtv/n...sh-agenda/

Post: #16

The book of Enoch is apocryphal so it was never included in the Bible as dictated by the Catholic Church. Funnily I've read all of this about the Patriarchs after Adam including Enoch but like you Sonsowey, I watched Noah and went back to analyse and read it all again.

I think the main thing I took was that Enoch was the only guy referenced in the Bible who actually went to heaven whilst alive and came back... (Ancient Alien theorists have used this as possible evidence of ancient astronauts)

Post: #17

(01-07-2015 07:59 AM)bojangles Wrote:  The book of Enoch is apocryphal so it was never included in the Bible as dictated by the Catholic Church. Funnily I've read all of this about the Patriarchs after Adam including Enoch but like you Sonsowey, I watched Noah and went back to analyse and read it all again.

I think the main thing I took was that Enoch was the only guy referenced in the Bible who actually went to heaven whilst alive and came back... (Ancient Alien theorists have used this as possible evidence of ancient astronauts)

I think you're thinking of Elijah, who was also taken to Heaven while still alive by chariots of fire and a whirlwind.

I've heard UFO believers say that was essentially an alien abduction.

Post: #18

(01-07-2015 01:36 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Wastelander,

The references to giants that are made in Genesis, what is your take on that?

Just tall men within the range of NBA players? Or just nonsense from thousands of years ago that shouldn't be taken seriously in the slightest?

It's strange that you're saying measurements in ancient texts are unrealistic, and for THAT reason, we should not believe them.

Noah's ark was supposedly 300x50x30 cubits, which is 450x75x45 feet. Obviously not big enough to fit the entire animal kingdom. Yet am I to understand you take that story as true and those measurements as accurate? I would be surprised to hear that, but discrediting one old story for faulty measurements doesn't make sense if you accept another with faulty measurements.

My take on it is they were tall men, the same as the giants referenced in later books written by Moses.

You have to figure that due to nutrition and shit at the time that Israelites probably weren't all that tall. When you see a dude that's eight or nine feet tall and you're in the lower five foot range, that is a giant to you.

I take the Noah's ark story as true and those parts in particular because the Bible states he had a ton of time to build it and there might not have been as many subspecies of animals as there are today. In another thread I said I also believe evolution and natural selection are real and observable. Things change, new species and sub-species emerge or grow alongside others, etc.

In my unpopular opinion, God designed the world this way and he can do literally anything.

As for the book of Enoch, it's interesting. I didn't meant to come off as being totally dismissive of it and putting down your thread or anything.

I just don't believe it's legitimate because it doesn't square with the rest of the Bible.

Another thing is that angels are never hugely prominent figures with entire books of the Bible devoted to them.

They're just servants of God, or in the case of demons, rebel angels and servants of Satan.

Not nearly as important or significant as their masters.

Post: #19

(01-07-2015 03:31 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  My take on it is they were tall men, the same as the giants referenced in later books written by Moses.

You have to figure that due to nutrition and shit at the time that Israelites probably weren't all that tall. When you see a dude that's eight or nine feet tall and you're in the lower five foot range, that is a giant to you.

I take the Noah's ark story as true and those parts in particular because the Bible states he had a ton of time to build it and there might not have been as many subspecies of animals as there are today. In another thread I said I also believe evolution and natural selection are real and observable. Things change, new species and sub-species emerge or grow alongside others, etc.

In my unpopular opinion, God designed the world this way and he can do literally anything.

As for the book of Enoch, it's interesting. I didn't meant to come off as being totally dismissive of it and putting down your thread or anything.

I just don't believe it's legitimate because it doesn't square with the rest of the Bible.

Another thing is that angels are never hugely prominent figures with entire books of the Bible devoted to them.

They're just servants of God, or in the case of demons, rebel angels and servants of Satan.

Not nearly as important or significant as their masters.

No disrespect taken at all, you actually engaged with it in a serious way which is what I hoped by starting this thread. We disagree, I'm an atheist and don't think the bible is true, but I really appreciate having dialogues with people who have different views.

You believe in natural selection and evolution as part of God's plan, and that there were few enough animals in that time to fit, and later re-populate the world. So you accept commonly held scientific understandings about how animals evolved and are related, I presume?

That is interesting, but when do you place the flood chronologically in our history?

Post: #20

(01-07-2015 04:31 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 03:31 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  My take on it is they were tall men, the same as the giants referenced in later books written by Moses.

You have to figure that due to nutrition and shit at the time that Israelites probably weren't all that tall. When you see a dude that's eight or nine feet tall and you're in the lower five foot range, that is a giant to you.

I take the Noah's ark story as true and those parts in particular because the Bible states he had a ton of time to build it and there might not have been as many subspecies of animals as there are today. In another thread I said I also believe evolution and natural selection are real and observable. Things change, new species and sub-species emerge or grow alongside others, etc.

In my unpopular opinion, God designed the world this way and he can do literally anything.

As for the book of Enoch, it's interesting. I didn't meant to come off as being totally dismissive of it and putting down your thread or anything.

I just don't believe it's legitimate because it doesn't square with the rest of the Bible.

Another thing is that angels are never hugely prominent figures with entire books of the Bible devoted to them.

They're just servants of God, or in the case of demons, rebel angels and servants of Satan.

Not nearly as important or significant as their masters.

No disrespect taken at all, you actually engaged with it in a serious way which is what I hoped by starting this thread. We disagree, I'm an atheist and don't think the bible is true, but I really appreciate having dialogues with people who have different views.

You believe in natural selection and evolution as part of God's plan, and that there were few enough animals in that time to fit, and later re-populate the world. So you accept commonly held scientific understandings about how animals evolved and are related, I presume?

That is interesting, but when do you place the flood chronologically in our history?

I do.

I don't know when the flood happened. I'm assuming several thousands of years ago.

I don't really buy into the idea the world is 8000 years old or whatever and I don't think the Bible gives the age of the earth.

Post: #21

Quote:They're just servants of God, or in the case of demons, rebel angels and servants of Satan.

Demons and fallen angels are not the same thing. Fallen angels are considered devils, and Lucifer is Satan. But demons are the offspring of Lilith, who was Adams first bride and corrupted by Lucifer. Some hold the opinion that it was Lilith who corrupted Eve into eating the apple, and bringing about the fall of man.

I should add that I do not believe the biblical story of creation even though I do believe in God, but I wouldn't outright dismiss the contents as being wholely false either. I would say the beings that came down to Earth were more likely aliens than angels, and the offspring (Nephilim) were genetic experiments.

Post: #22

''Oh and nowhere in the Bible does the "sons of God" refer to angels.''

Nonsense Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 all refer to angels as sons of God.
Angels, while sexless in the spirit, sometimes tend to come in the form of something else in the Bible when on Earth, such as men in the case of the ones to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, or take the form of a serpent in Genesis...

Explain to me how a righteous moral man, and an immoral woman somehow makes a strange physical hybrid so that the children grow 10+ feet tall and have superhuman strength? Its quite clear that these angels came in physical forms and lowered the vibrations of their bodies due to lust after beautiful human woman.

Paul :That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Corinthians 11:10

Post: #23

(01-08-2015 01:43 AM)LionBorn Wrote:  ''Oh and nowhere in the Bible does the "sons of God" refer to angels.''

Nonsense Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 all refer to angels as sons of God.
Angels, while sexless in the spirit, sometimes tend to come in the form of something else in the Bible when on Earth, such as men in the case of the ones to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, or take the form of a serpent in Genesis...

Explain to me how a righteous moral man, and an immoral woman somehow makes a strange physical hybrid so that the children grow 10+ feet tall and have superhuman strength? Its quite clear that these angels came in physical forms and lowered the vibrations of their bodies due to lust after beautiful human woman.

Paul :That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Corinthians 11:10

You're right about them being called that in Job. I was wrong.

I don't know what you mean by "lowered the vibrations of their bodies."

And these children, if you believe the Book of Enoch, were a lot bigger than 10 feet tall.

Post: #24

(01-07-2015 03:17 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 07:59 AM)bojangles Wrote:  The book of Enoch is apocryphal so it was never included in the Bible as dictated by the Catholic Church. Funnily I've read all of this about the Patriarchs after Adam including Enoch but like you Sonsowey, I watched Noah and went back to analyse and read it all again.

I think the main thing I took was that Enoch was the only guy referenced in the Bible who actually went to heaven whilst alive and came back... (Ancient Alien theorists have used this as possible evidence of ancient astronauts)

I think you're thinking of Elijah, who was also taken to Heaven while still alive by chariots of fire and a whirlwind.

I've heard UFO believers say that was essentially an alien abduction.

No Enoch did go to heaven too, he disappeared for a long time.

"Enoch was taken up to Heaven and was appointed guardian of all the celestial treasures, chief of the archangels, and the immediate attendant on God's throne. He was subsequently taught all secrets and mysteries and, with all the angels at his back, fulfils of his own accord whatever comes out of the mouth of God, executing His decrees" <- that's direct from the Book of Enoch

In fact Kabbala Jews believe he became the angel Metatron and communicated with Moses.

The fallen angels bit is what the theorists also call aliens. Mating with the locals then being wiped out by another alien race

Post: #25

(01-07-2015 10:56 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  I do.

I don't know when the flood happened. I'm assuming several thousands of years ago.

I don't really buy into the idea the world is 8000 years old or whatever and I don't think the Bible gives the age of the earth.

Trying to keep our conversation separate, I think if you look into the evolutionary and archeological history of the animals of the world for instance, you will not really find evidence of some flood that wiped them all out and then saw them replaced by descendants of ones saved from the Middle East.

For instance, Alpacas are creatures who evolved solely in the Americas, never spread to the Middle East, and are today still found solely in the Americas (outside of zoos, of course).

Consider the Kangaroo in Australia. Again, this animal is seen nowhere out of Australia. There is archeological evidence showing its existence in Australia through the Millenia, with no period of them all being wiped out and starting over again.

There is no skeletal evidence of these animals from anywhere else in the world, so it seems impossible that they were saved on the ark and re-populated the world from the home base of the Middle East..