Post: #126

(12-21-2014 05:46 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  Because the title of the thread is 'Two police officers shot and killed while in patrol car in Brooklyn '...

You are correct.

I was asking why we don't see daily threads here along the lines of "Sewage plant worker killed", "Garbage man killed", "Telecommunications helpdesk intern killed" or "Trauma surgeon killed." These types of things happen all of the time and they do not generate conversations like this. I am posing the question, Why?

People who support technology, work as surgeons or work in sanitation fields such as garbage men and sewage plant workers save countless more lives than law enforcement officers. Why is this story newsworthy and full of debate while the deaths of the more valuable heroes in the fields I listed above (any many others) are glossed over daily?

Post: #127

(12-21-2014 06:13 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  The problem isn't guns. If the criminals want guns, they will get them one way or another. And if they can't get a gun they will find another way to kill people.

The problem is feminism. Feminism diminishing the role of dad and kicking dad's out of the house. Single mother households account for a vast majority of criminals. The areas with the highest out of wedlock births are also the areas with the most crime and violence. The problem will not be fixed by more government, especially not the very same government that created this problem to start with by chasing dad out of the house and replacing him with welfare.

Plus, the violent crime problem is one the government cannot deal with, even were its intent as pure as the driven snow. Centralizing power with the government, ceding our individual responsibility in the hope that the cops/firemen/whoever will be there when we need them--despite the fact that they have no obligation whatsoever to help individuals per the Supreme Court--is purest insanity.

If we want to fight violent crime and reduce vulnerability to terrorists or whoever else might want to kill us, the answer is to allow responsible adults the means to defend themselves wherever they may be. Honest people will not go on shooting sprees or hijack airplanes, but they can stop the people who do.

Post: #128

This killing puts the lie to the idea that if everyone is armed, good people can use their weapons against bad people to stop violence from occurring.

2 armed cops killed in broad daylight, it was said that they may have never even seen the man coming up on them, he got them both in a moment and they were done. Being armed and trained did not help them one bit.

Post: #129

(12-21-2014 06:28 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  This killing puts the lie to the idea that if everyone is armed, good people can use their weapons against bad people to stop violence from occurring.

2 armed cops killed in broad daylight, it was said that they may have never even seen the man coming up on them, he got them both in a moment and they were done. Being armed and trained did not help them one bit.

It doesn't take a gun to kill someone. Taking away the rights and freedoms from Americans to stop a few NAWALT criminals isn't going to do any good at all. As long as there are no dads in the homes and the govt. keeps minimizing the role of dad, this will only continue to get worse.

Post: #130

(12-21-2014 06:30 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  It doesn't take a gun to kill someone. Taking away the rights and freedoms from Americans to stop a few NAWALT criminals isn't going to do any good at all. As long as there are no dads in the homes and the govt. keeps minimizing the role of dad, this will only continue to get worse.

If this guy had a knife of a baseball bat instead of a gun, he could not kill 2 cops sitting in a car. Period.

He could still be violent and hurt or kill people, but you have a much better chance of surviving being knifed or beaten than being shot.

Post: #131

(12-21-2014 06:36 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 06:30 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  It doesn't take a gun to kill someone. Taking away the rights and freedoms from Americans to stop a few NAWALT criminals isn't going to do any good at all. As long as there are no dads in the homes and the govt. keeps minimizing the role of dad, this will only continue to get worse.

Dude if this guy had a knife of a baseball bat instead of a gun, he could not kill 2 cops sitting in a car. Period.

There are all sorts of things he could have done. Terrorists killed 3,000 people in one day using box cutters.

Taking the freedom from people to protect themselves in their own homes, and giving even more power and money to a govt. that goes out of its way to hurt men isn't the answer.

The answer is to get rid of this feminist disaster.

Post: #132

(12-21-2014 06:27 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 05:46 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  Because the title of the thread is 'Two police officers shot and killed while in patrol car in Brooklyn '...

You are correct.

I was asking why we don't see daily threads here along the lines of "Sewage plant worker killed", "Garbage man killed", "Telecommunications helpdesk intern killed" or "Trauma surgeon killed." These types of things happen all of the time and they do not generate conversations like this. I am posing the question, Why?

People who support technology, work as surgeons or work in sanitation fields such as garbage men and sewage plant workers save countless more lives than law enforcement officers. Why is this story newsworthy and full of debate while the deaths of the more valuable heroes in the fields I listed above (any many others) are glossed over daily?

Because it involved revenge killing over a race issue.
This is a very poor comparison

Post: #133

(12-21-2014 06:28 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  This killing puts the lie to the idea that if everyone is armed, good people can use their weapons against bad people to stop violence from occurring.

2 armed cops killed in broad daylight, it was said that they may have never even seen the man coming up on them, he got them both in a moment and they were done. Being armed and trained did not help them one bit.

That's just silly. A gun isn't a panacea or a forcefield. If someone wants to kill you and you don't see them coming, you're fucked either way. And even when you do have a chance to fight back, the good guys lose sometimes. I had friends who were trained and armed who died in broad daylight in Iraq and they were alert because they were in a war zone on a mission. Shit happens.

What stops an active shooter? A good guy with a gun. Often the good guy doesn't even need to shoot the active shooter, but instead the shooter self-terminates once he faces armed resistance.

The fact is there are a shitload more non-police than police out there, and by allowing people the option of carrying weapons to protect themselves, it is much more likely a good guy with a gun will be there to do something about it.

Quote:If this guy had a knife of a baseball bat instead of a gun, he could not kill 2 cops sitting in a car. Period.

He could still be violent and hurt or kill people, but you have a much better chance of surviving being knifed or beaten than being shot.

Yeah, because humans never killed each other before guns were invented. And you intend to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, how, exactly? The guy who killed the cops was legally prohibited from owning a gun. Sounds to me like a clear cut case of gun control being fucking useless in stopping violent crime.

Post: #134

(12-21-2014 11:34 AM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 08:43 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Being a cop is a dangerous job. But let's get real. They chose that job voluntarily. They weren't drafted. They chose that job for the high salary, benefits and pension plan that comes with it not for the honor or glory like they want you believe. So if random guys want to roll up kill a few cops I'm not upset about it. It comes with the territory. If you don't want to be shot at then don't be a cop.

Is being a law enforcement officer dangerous in reality or is it just dangerous on television shows and movies? Here is a chart from the Bureau of Labor Statistics National Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries.



and a quote from the report...

Quote:The number of fatal work injuries among protective service occupations was higher by 7 percent in 2013 to 247 fatalities. This was led by higher numbers of fatal injuries involving firefighting and prevention workers. Fatal injuries among firefighters rose 194 percent to 53 fatal work injuries from 18 in 2012. Two incidents alone accounted for over half of the 53 fatal injuries involving firefighters. Fatal work injuries among law enforcement workers were down 20 percent to a new series low of 97 fatalities.

Do you see parades, ceremonies and statues celebrating the guys working in the fields in the chart above? I have worked 3 of the jobs in this graph in the past, at no time did I feel I was in extreme danger.

This same logic is applied to statistics to make American war involvement seem safer than average living in the continental United States.

The analogy goes; "Statistically, you're more likely to die stateside than in Iraq/Afghanistan"

Yes, that's probably because everyone around you in an imminent danger area of deployment is controlled for a minimum threshold of IQ, safety training, battle drills, first aid etc.

Guess which continent you're more likely to see your first explosion or dismembered body, in person, on.

Post: #135

(12-21-2014 06:41 PM)weambulance Wrote:  And you intend to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, how, exactly? The guy who killed the cops was legally prohibited from owning a gun. Sounds to me like a clear cut case of gun control being fucking useless in stopping violent crime.

Laws prohibiting certain people from getting guns can obviously be worked around.

I would focus on restricting the gun industry as a whole.

Let's piss off as many Republicans as possible. New Gun Tax!

Post: #136

(12-21-2014 06:45 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  Guess which continent you're more likely to see your first explosion or dismembered body, in person, on.

I saw my first dismembered body in person working on a manufacturing floor when a co-worker got crushed while repairing a press. I have only seen one dismembered body but it is one more than my cousin in law enforcement has seen.

(12-21-2014 06:41 PM)Bazzwaldo Wrote:  Because it involved revenge killing over a race issue.
This is a very poor comparison

Fair enough, excellent point. It was as poor of a comparison as Tony comparing the danger level of a soldier's job to that of a law enforcer's.

Post: #137

Gun tax? Well, the people who want them do not give a fuck what they cost.

Now. My opinion on this would get me banned here real fast but I'll warn.

I go to a gun store about once a week and the local yocals are getting locked and loaded real fast. Real fast!

If the underbelly of our country wants to wage war on law which is happening in some regard you WILL see blood on the streets.

Post: #138

(12-21-2014 06:54 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 06:41 PM)weambulance Wrote:  And you intend to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, how, exactly? The guy who killed the cops was legally prohibited from owning a gun. Sounds to me like a clear cut case of gun control being fucking useless in stopping violent crime.

Laws prohibiting certain people from getting guns can obviously be worked around.

I would focus on restricting the gun industry as a whole.

I know they will not be eliminated but cutting the number of guns produced by a large amount would help ensure that fewer crazies got their hands on guns.

Great, so law abiding citizens get fucked over and criminals carry on as usual.

Suppose you did destroy the US gun industry. A) Lots of other countries make guns that can be smuggled into the US. B) It's not difficult to make improvised firearms. C) Look up Khyber Pass copies. If there is a demand, the market will meet it, and a cottage industry would spring up overnight.

Stop treating guns as the problem and maybe you'll get somewhere. Guns are not inherently evil, and do not cause crime. Stop attacking a tool and start looking at why people are criminally violent.

I can kill in a mind boggling variety of ways. I'm a nice, moral guy so that's not a problem. Why, I haven't murdered anybody all year! But if someone with my knowledge and skill wanted to go on a killing spree, lacking a gun wouldn't stop him. And that's my point.

You can't stop evil, you can only fight it. And what you're talking about will only make the growth of evil easier and quicker.

Post: #139

Quote:When they put on their uniform they cease to be individuals anymore. They're part of a collective organization ...a gang. Same way prosecutors can charge "innocent" people under Rico for being part of a criminal organization they should be charging the Police as an organization for criminal activities and policy. But they don't because they're all on the same team. That's the issue here. It's a corrupt system. And more cops will die if they don't change their policy.

LOL that isn't exactly how RICO works. RICO links the deeds of known criminals to the known criminal bosses that give the orders.

If a cop truly does something criminal and he had a boss who was the known criminal corrupt boss that gives those orders then it would be a more similar analogy.

But when a cop has gone pass the line with intent (robbery, etc) he wasn't acting under orders of anyone above him(as far as we know). He basically just did something criminal. Not to benefit some kingpin mafia boss or politician.

Irrelevant to Eric..because the cop didn't do anything criminal( you can't claim injustice because you don't like the decision of the grand jury..that means those protesters are attempting to be jury,judge and executioner) .

Now if he actually had the guy in a choke hold( which he didn't since it looks like a headlock and in itself choke holds aren't illegal) and he kept choking him EVEN AFTER the cuffs were on( even legal choke hold would be illegally excessive if the guy is subdued..because no force is needed) and the boss at the scene saw it and let it happen (winks to the cop with a head nod) then one can say the boss is responsible . But this is clearly not what happened. This wasn't an episode of the Shield!

Quote:It's a corrupt system. And more cops will die if they don't change their policy.

And MORE cops ,as well as innocents when the hood takes over the streets, will get killed if they do change policy and let thugs and criminals get away with everything. Damned if they DO and Damned if they DON'T. Pat Lynch has the only way that NO COPS will die... fucking do nothing.

As my partner use to say before retirement.. "we get paid the same no matter how many tickets, arrests or jobs we respond to". Something to think about before you go to sleep tonight! Don't let the bedbugs bite!

And realize a corporate model for law enforcement be your worst nightmare. Imagine cops getting paid based on performance. "Gee, let me arrest xtra guys and ticket them for xtra money and a yearly bonus". Santa coming early I guess.

Post: #140

(12-21-2014 07:06 PM)weambulance Wrote:  I can kill in a mind boggling variety of ways. I'm a nice, moral guy so that's not a problem. Why, I haven't murdered anybody all year! But if someone with my knowledge and skill wanted to go on a killing spree, lacking a gun wouldn't stop him. And that's my point.

Who has gone on a baseball-bat killing spree recently? A knifing rampage? Show me the bodies.

Guns allow any coward to kill someone. I venture that a good amount of the idiots who shoot someone would never have the guts to get in a person's face and try to knife them.

You're just putting your head in the sand if you think guns don't make killing people easier. It's a tool, yes. So is a flamethrower, people shouldn't be allowed to have those.

"Oh what, so now law-abiding americans can't flamethrow for fun on the weekends?"

Post: #141

(12-21-2014 06:58 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 06:45 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  Guess which continent you're more likely to see your first explosion or dismembered body, in person, on.

I saw my first dismembered body in person working on a manufacturing floor when a co-worker got crushed while repairing a press. I have only seen one dismembered body but it is one more than my cousin in law enforcement has seen.

(12-21-2014 06:41 PM)Bazzwaldo Wrote:  Because it involved revenge killing over a race issue.
This is a very poor comparison

Fair enough, excellent point.

Touche' but that's the wrong equivalence to pursue when I was making a foreign military deployment comparison to stateside life.

The average cop isn't going to see people losing limbs on a regular basis because killing weapons are controlled for lethality and collateral to a certain degree. Criminals may posses full-automatic rifles at times, but never .50 caliber machine guns. That's a big difference.

Medical first responders, of the advance lifesaving qualification, by trade are more likely to see dismemberment in common place compared to the military, police, manufacturing and agriculture. Emergency medical services respond to each industries medical needs. It's the rule of odds.

Does that make their job inherently more dangerous than police? Not with that information alone.

We MUST apply reason to all these arguments on work environment.

For instance; it's not common knowledge that medics are under constant-potential danger of robbery and assault by injured criminals, drug addicts and organized crime when arriving at a call location. The media, common narrative and commonly available statistics may present a contrarian picture, but I'd always suspect it to be coming from an agenda if they claimed otherwise on the real world analysis I just stated.

Post: #142

(12-21-2014 07:17 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 07:06 PM)weambulance Wrote:  I can kill in a mind boggling variety of ways. I'm a nice, moral guy so that's not a problem. Why, I haven't murdered anybody all year! But if someone with my knowledge and skill wanted to go on a killing spree, lacking a gun wouldn't stop him. And that's my point.

Who has gone on a baseball-bat killing spree recently? A knifing rampage? Show me the bodies.

Guns allow any coward to kill someone. I venture that a good amount of the idiots who shoot someone would never have the guts to get in a person's face and try to knife them.

You're just putting your head in the sand if you think guns don't make killing people easier. It's a tool, yes. So is a flamethrower, people shouldn't be allowed to have those.

"Oh what, so now law-abiding americans can't flamethrow for fun on the weekends?"

If your grandmother was stomped by a bunch of gang members for her jewelry because...

-she was caught alone
-they had guns anyway
-she was physically unable to combat the threat
-she was outnumbered by law breakers intent on harming her
-no one was there to witness her attackers
-if present, no witness was willing to testify on her behalf

...you'd probably start to see the benefit of gun ownership.

Post: #143

I don't like people saying "fuck the police."

I ask them to go live in a third world country and they will then notice that the benefits far outweigh the downsides. You may even encounter a situation where you piss your pants and wish in that wet moment that Mr. American policeman was around.

The media jumps on the bad shit but I bet there are some pretty crazy situations where a cop put his life on the line to save one of their asses.

Easy to theorize. Harder to appreciate.

Post: #144

The public will always misunderstand the outcomes of violent lines of work, even more correlating with how far violence is removed from the everyday citizens life.

Post: #145

(12-21-2014 04:49 PM)Mr.mp Wrote:  jimukr,

I did the same as most that you know. Left the job after fd called, 7 years in. I actually may try to go back to pd if I dont vest out and leave ny. Im still considering though even after almost 10 yrs in... Good for you , no one understands though with pension, ithp plus 50, variable, etc..
C. Your not the only other who can give the other side.
RIP..

I never remember you saying you were FD or was PD. I thought you were some rich guy lol. I guess we are rich.

So what area s of staten island are decent these days? Brooklyn cost to much.

Post: #146

(12-21-2014 07:17 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 07:06 PM)weambulance Wrote:  I can kill in a mind boggling variety of ways. I'm a nice, moral guy so that's not a problem. Why, I haven't murdered anybody all year! But if someone with my knowledge and skill wanted to go on a killing spree, lacking a gun wouldn't stop him. And that's my point.

Who has gone on a baseball-bat killing spree recently? A knifing rampage? Show me the bodies.

Guns allow any coward to kill someone. I venture that a good amount of the idiots who shoot someone would never have the guts to get in a person's face and try to knife them.

You're just putting your head in the sand if you think guns don't make killing people easier. It's a tool, yes. So is a flamethrower, people shouldn't be allowed to have those.

"Oh what, so now law-abiding americans can't flamethrow for fun on the weekends?"

Never said otherwise.

Incidentally, flamethrowers are largely legal in the US, and not very useful for killing people. They can only fire for a few seconds before they run out of fuel, contrary to depictions in popular media.

It_is_my_time already showed you an example of people going on a killing spree without guns. It happened on 9/11/2001.

How about the Bath school bombing? Plenty died there.

Oklahoma City bombing... nobody was shot.

Chinese train station knife attack - 29 dead, 130 injured

I'm not going to do your homework for you, man. Look on wikipedia, google up some news stories. Lots of people are murdered every year without guns.

-----------

Guns can make things easier, but they are not necessary. You think that after magically removing a tool from common use--which is not possible, as I have already explained--people will just shrug and say "Well, I was going to go on that killing spree today, but I guess I'll just play my PS4 instead."

The thing is, that's magical thinking. You are attaching the result of less crime to the legal restriction of firearms and there is no causal relationship there. Criminals will either get guns illegally--as many of those very spree shooters you mentioned did--or they will use other tools.

------------

I've seen quite a bit of combat. You know what? I always loved it when the enemy was shooting at me, instead of dropping mortars, blowing up IEDs, etc. Why? Because that meant they were in my line of sight somewhere, and I could shoot right back. I'd much rather be attacked by a guy with a rifle than a guy with car full of ANFO.

-------------

Are you aware of how many firearms there are in the US? Over 300 million. Guns are here to stay, no matter how much you dislike that fact. You could outlaw them tomorrow and few people would turn them in, creating an instant criminal class. I sure as fuck would not turn in my guns. You think that sounds like a good plan, pissing off tens of millions of peaceful gun owners and making them fear for their lives and futures?

Making guns illegal would make things much, much worse in the US. But go on thinking otherwise, I don't mind.

Post: #147

Quote:A second slay attempt on NYPD officers was narrowly avoided early Sunday when a gunman’s weapon jammed as he took aim at two cops outside a Bronx housing project, sources said.

Investigators grabbed the wannabe cop killer after he dropped his gun and ran into the Millbrook Houses on Saint Anns Ave. in Port Morris, sources said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-...-1.2052600

Post: #148

(12-21-2014 07:25 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 07:17 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 07:06 PM)weambulance Wrote:  I can kill in a mind boggling variety of ways. I'm a nice, moral guy so that's not a problem. Why, I haven't murdered anybody all year! But if someone with my knowledge and skill wanted to go on a killing spree, lacking a gun wouldn't stop him. And that's my point.

Who has gone on a baseball-bat killing spree recently? A knifing rampage? Show me the bodies.

Guns allow any coward to kill someone. I venture that a good amount of the idiots who shoot someone would never have the guts to get in a person's face and try to knife them.

You're just putting your head in the sand if you think guns don't make killing people easier. It's a tool, yes. So is a flamethrower, people shouldn't be allowed to have those.

"Oh what, so now law-abiding americans can't flamethrow for fun on the weekends?"

If your grandmother was stomped by a bunch of gang members for her jewelry because...

-she was caught alone
-they had guns anyway
-she was physically unable to combat the threat
-she was outnumbered by law breakers intent on harming her
-no one was there to witness her attackers
-if present, no witness was willing to testify on her behalf

...you'd probably start to see the benefit of gun ownership.

You think your grandma with a gun vs. a bunch of gang members with guns would turn out any way but your grandma dead?

Post: #149

My grandma is crazy, so she'd be screwed. But plenty of grandmas aren't, and can handle a gun.

A few posts back guns made it too easy for normal people to kill, now you're saying they're ineffective for self defense?

Post: #150

My main problem with gun control (other than the extra control the government gains from disarming its populace) is that it's not feasible. Sonsowey, there are ~8.5 guns for every 10 Americans. You could crack down on the gun industry, but that doesn't stop guns from coming in from Mexico.

Are you willing to decree summary execution for anyone found in possession of a gun? Because that's the only way you'll rid America of guns.