Post: #26

The "study computer science" argument is so fallacious, most CS students spend more time learning theoritical computer science than actually writing code. Once on the job market you will most like glue libraries found on GitHub together or review code written by someone else. Don't expect to be a Python/Java rockstar upon graduation. Just like any other major: intern, network and build a portfolio.

It's really STEM or bust but I only see engineering, computer science and applied mathematics as viable STEM options.

Full disclosure: I have a BBA in finance and am now studying computer science.

Post: #27

"Your Monthly Housing Allowance (MHA) is generally the same as the military Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH) for an E-5 with dependents. "

In NYC that is 3,744 a month. So you can go to school for 3-4 years while getting a living allowance that is probably larger than your military salary was.

It is a no brainier tbh. 3,744 after taxes is higher than most jobs will pay you lol. It is the = of a 70k job before taxes.

Post: #28

Mike at Danger and Play did a good podcast on this, I think Chris from GLL was also on it.

If I were you I would look for a part time job where you'd work about 20 hours a week and then spend 10 hours on your own private business and the another 10 hours on networking your fucking ass. That'll ad up to 40 hours a week.

(12-20-2014 11:59 AM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  The "study computer science" argument is so fallacious, most CS students spend more time learning theoritical computer science than actually writing code. Once on the job market you will most like glue libraries found on GitHub together or review code written by someone else. Don't expect to be a Python/Java rockstar upon graduation. Just like any other major: intern, network and build a portfolio.

It's really STEM or bust but I only see engineering, computer science and applied mathematics as viable STEM options.

Full disclosure: I have a BBA in finance and am now studying computer science.

So why are you are studying CS if you know that its going to be useless for you?

Post: #29

(12-20-2014 02:23 PM)Kaebs Wrote:  So why are you are studying CS if you know that its going to be useless for you?

It's not useless if you intern, network and build a portfolio which is what I'm doing.

Post: #30

You don't have to major in computer science to get a programming job though. You can learn how to code all on your own because there are tutorials all over the web. Programming internships take non-CS majors as long as the students demonstrate their coding skills.

All I am saying is that no degree will guarantee you a job. Having skills that employers want will help you. The skills you develop are independent of the classes you take. Why major in physics when you can just volunteer to work in a physics lab and take classes that are interesting instead? Either way the only job you'll be qualified for after graduating is a lab research assistant.

OP, what sort of job are you looking for after college?

/thread-26260-...#pid910870
thread where people help each other learn how to write program

Post: #31

(12-20-2014 05:55 PM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  

(12-20-2014 02:23 PM)Kaebs Wrote:  So why are you are studying CS if you know that its going to be useless for you?

It's not useless if you intern, network and build a portfolio which is what I'm doing.

So you're gonna pay $100,000+ grand just so you can network?? What a joke, don't kid yourself and just gain some social skills and network out of college

Post: #32

(12-20-2014 06:47 AM)Saga Wrote:  College can be a good idea and it can be a very bad idea. It depends on the degree, on the institution and on how much you end up paying for it. All other things being equal, 'ticking the box' is better than not 'ticking the box', but at a certain point you have to ask yourself whether it's worth the investment of time, money and effort. In many cases (especially in liberal arts), it absolutely isn't.

(12-20-2014 06:08 AM)Inspired Wrote:  Go and finish the degree!!!! It doesn't matter what degree. Just have one!!! It opens up doors!

Signed,
Your local bursar's office

Quote:As an example, I'm living in Europe and seeing American dudes with degrees come here left and right who are put in charge at large international companies making great money, and the work is easier in the rest of the world than the states. You can work in English, and everyone will accommodate you, and you are looked at as elite because you're American etc.

No offense, but everything you wrote here is demonstrably false. Do you really expect people to believe that Americans get upper-level positions at "large international companies making great money" merely because they have a college degree? Which companies are these? Where did these apparently monoglot "dudes" get their degrees from, and in what subject? Which Western European countries even remotely view Americans as "elite"? These assumptions aren't just wrong, they have no relationship to reality.

Where I am at in Germany, what I wrote is exactly the situation. If you've got a degree in business or marketing or anything of that nature, you're as good as gold. And it doesn't matter where they got their degree from. The most important thing today is bringing native English speakers into foreign branches of companies. And it's not about just being a native speaker. Americans are looked at as elite. That's the perception that exists (why that is or whether it's true or not is an entirely different subject).

The guys I know usually have a couple years of work experience in the states, and then they either got sent to Germany from the original company, or they applied for a job at a different company, for a position in Germany. And then there are guys with just a degree who applied and got in. And it's not only Americans. I've seen a lot of other foreignors come in, but mostly, it is Americans. So at least the Germans have a hardon for bringing in native speaking English speaking Americans.

Quote:Look, I've been in the same situation as you. Get your head in the game, take your degree seriously, and hammer it the fuck out. No one can take it from you. Just checking this thing off the list will open so many opportunities for you.

OK, I'm game. Tell me what opportunities a sociology degree from Occidental College will automatically open for someone.

Sure. Yeah, that degree sounds a little limited, and it is, but.......if there is a job that requires a degree......and you want to apply for it, you can. Even if the job requests a more specific degree, you can still apply for it anyway, and if you present yourself well, and can get an interview, and are smooth, you'd be surprised at how often the specific degree you have isn't going to prevent you from getting hired.

But if the job requires a degree and you don't have a degree, you can apply, but you're not going to get anywhere 99% of the time.

So long story short, ok yes, the specific degree does have weight. If it is oriented in the business, marketing, human resources, finance direction, a general degree can open big doors. If it is a sociology degree for example, this still could be sellable, but what is more important is any work experience you have. I know a dude with one of those weak liberal arts degrees that started working at a call center at a bank, and he got promoted to a higher position outside of the call center. And despite the degree, he's considered a business/banking dude, and is really claiming the ladder. His boss loves him and is pushing him up the chain. He can get awesome jobs because his work experience now defines him and not his degree. This applies in house and out of house as well.

So long story short, get a decent degree, and it does open doors.

Post: #33

Start a business instead, or start a business while in college

Post: #34

It really depends on both the specific degree and your school. You need to factor both into consideration.

For example, a computer engineering degree from a reputable engineering school is still almost universally valuable despite recent pressures on that degree.

Other degrees values can vary widely depending on where you go. Business is a good example. An MBA from Colorado State University(i know this because I used to live in CO) is worth about $60k base salary out of the gate. Not only is the cost a factor but industry experience will probably be more valuable to you given that you commit yourself to learning that industry. Not only that but the university I just mentioned has the best business accreditation(AACSB). Regionally accredited or less is a complete waste of your time.

A business degree from a top 25 school is an entirely different story. Even the lowest in that category are valuable. Emory University's average starting alumni salary is 100k....BASE, not counting bonuses or benefits. As such if you can get into that or a higher ranked school and are currently working typical middle class wages (50-75k total yearly compensation), the 150 grand it costs to attend out pocket is quickly going to be made up for by the increased post-degree salaries. Lifetime salary benefits are even higher as a top-tier degree will allow you access to networks and opportunities not previously open to you and could very well set you up to own your own tech consulting firm, venture capital group, or marketing agency, or whatever other firm applies to your preferred expertise.

Post: #35

the easiest answer to this question is to look at the lifelong earning potential of someone with a college degree versus without. cliff's notes: it's much higher with a degree. as a corollary, it's an easy differentiator for hiring managers. if you get 50 CVs for a job posting, tossing the 10 without a degree just made your decision 20% easier. and maybe you can get into the entry level, but if you want to advance?

the flip side is the expense of the degree that weighs into the cost-benefit calculation. full ticket, it's incredibly expensive. with financial aid, or a public school, or in this case with the government paying the majority? much more doable.

if you're going to school on your own dime or taking out big loans, you'd better make sure it's a degree with an ROI. it's great for your soul to spend four years studying philosophy, but making lattes afterward will make for a long payback on the loans.

in your case, with the government picking up most of the bill, it's a no brainer.

Post: #36

Not to beat the dead horse here but maybe we in the manosphere are a bit too harsh on college. Reasons for its positives already mentioned above: skills, connections, girls, probably in that order.

It's really the only place you can have access to both the concepts of a subject and also its job market. Whether you're in Finance, Engineering or want to make it big in your own business, you're not getting there by skipping college for the most part. Yes, Bill Gates may have done it but that shit takes extreme amounts of discipline and also tenacity and understanding of the market place, which most of us don't have. And don't kid yourself by thinking that just because you were in the military, the discipline is congruent with what you need in college. That discipline in the civilian world is different and often times unstructured and extremely difficult to get a handle on. College happens to be the best place to get personal discipline especially given your structured background in the military which needs to come apart at some point (as the civilian world doesn't function the same way).

There is a certain amount of your military social conditioning that is causing you to question your choice. I know it because I went through it too after being active duty for 4 years. It took a while to adjust; and it was still a shot in the dark. In the first 2 years of college I wanted to walk out every day just like you. I was more mature than the others, took shit more seriously, and couldn't stand the other students' lackluster attitude. But, reason I felt this way was my own uptight attitude which I used to perceive others in a way they all likely weren't. I joined a business frat in the 3rd year through which I met people who took the edge off and I started partying and being more social. It helped a lot. Not sure if you're doing anything like that.

I know people are noting some negatives associated with college, but if that's the case, I'd like to know what specifically was negative and how that outweighed the positives. That shit is dependent on too many variables. I met a kid in the family that just moved away to college. Very athletic, great social skills. I asked him if he joined a frat etc. He said no, it's overrated and he just wants to participate in sports (discipline) and do well in the Engineering program. He will succeed and likely be in the top tier of engineers in whatever area he's in.

Don't let the negativity screw you. Political BS aside, you gave to the country, now it's giving back. You have to make sure you respect it enough to accept it honorably and do the best you can.

Post: #37

Stem degrees will be useless soon, let's not forget that the "lack of Americans in stem" is a lie by silicon Valley to bring in hordes of Indians and Chinese for pennies on the dollar compared to the salary of an American.

There was an oversupply of engineers during the late 90s and early 2000s, even during the 08 recession I saw an engineering (Mech, elec, plum) company go from 62 employees to just 24.

I'll write a more detailed post after I get home. Currently sitting on a sofa at an ikea showroom.

Post: #38

(12-26-2014 07:59 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Stem degrees will be useless soon, let's not forget that the "lack of Americans in stem" is a lie by silicon Valley to bring in hordes of Indians and Chinese for pennies on the dollar compared to the salary of an American.

There was an oversupply of engineers during the late 90s and early 2000s, even during the 08 recession I saw an engineering (Mech, elec, plum) company go from 62 employees to just 24.

I'll write a more detailed post after I get home. Currently sitting on a sofa at an ikea showroom.

STEM degrees will not be worthless, people graduating from STEM degrees will be. What I mean is that just because has a STEM degree doesn't mean they will be an asset to a company.

Take the computer science argument. True, most CS students graduate with poor programming skills. Most of these just did what was required for class. The ones that sat at home for hours and end, programming their hearts out trying to find new ways to solve the in-class problems, will have no problem.

The ones walking out of college with their 2.5 GPAs and a nice embossed CS degree will have trouble. Those ones rocking the 3.5s and up won't. A STEM degree is a magic wand to high paying employment opportunities, you still work hard.

Shit, now I wanna go bust out a javascript program or something.

Post: #39

+1

I'd add that you're probably better off with a 2.5 GPA with a solid portfolio or a internship or two than a 4.0 with nothing else.

Post: #40

(12-26-2014 11:02 PM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  +1

I'd add that you're probably better off with a 2.5 GPA with a solid portfolio or a internship or two than a 4.0 with nothing else.

True. I was operating under the general assumption that the ones that are actually passionate and motivated enough to put in the extra hours and to get that 4.0 will have their own projects for their portfolios.

But yes, results trumps grades. Some college grads have neither. Some have one. But very very few have both.

If you have both you'll be fine.

Post: #41

(12-19-2014 03:08 PM)jake1720 Wrote:  Finance. Yes.
Medical. Yes
Engineering. Yes
Law. Yes

A degree in finance will help you get a job as a peon who will help somebody else become very rich. The guys who are truly successful in finance did not get there because of a degree.

Other than access to lots of pussy, college is a waste of time. Everything you'll ever need to know for college can be learned on wikipedia. You're better off living somewhere cheap and learning useful skills such as marketing and computer programming.

But as somebody said earlier in the thread, most guys who say not to go to college have degrees themselves.. I'm one of those guys. I have a 4 year degree, but I'm strongly against college. Save yourself time and money and do something useful instead.

A formal education will get you a decent job, but it'll never make you rich. Only go to college if you strive to be average and live a middle class life.

Post: #42

(12-27-2014 02:36 AM)travolta Wrote:  A formal education will get you a decent job, but it'll never make you rich. Only go to college if you strive to be average and live a middle class life.

It's true that you could potentially learn everything yourself and hit it big with a business venture in the time you would have been enrolled in college.

That's the 1% of people that don't go to college, or those that do and drop out. It takes a lot of self discipline, requires you to be fairly intelligent to begin with, and also has some degree of luck involved.

A college degree is a nice safety blanket to have. An 18yo going to college well graduate at 21. You can them go and pursue your own interests, if things go wrong you fallback on your degree. For example: I've spoken to many airline pilots, they all say that if you want to be an airline pilot, don't get a degree in professional aeronautics (or a similar aviation field). They all say to get something usefull but unrelated to aviation. Always have your safety blanket.

Post: #43

Just to chime in on Math Degrees... They do find work in the job market, but it's a real shot in the dark these days. Statistics is a MUCH more employable field, but the "in demand" degree is the M.Sc, not the B.Sc.

Post: #44

(12-19-2014 03:08 PM)jake1720 Wrote:  Finance. Yes.
Medical. Yes
Engineering. Yes
Law. Yes

Anything else? Not unless you want to "waste" four years fucking girls and taking BS classes.

If you listen to any of the successful people they will say that college didn't really help anything (besides the Ivy league connections for startups). (Peter thiel, among others).

Those in mediocre jobs (And slightly above mediocre) will generally say you need a college degree.

Make your decision.

I have an undergrad at Drexel University in chemical engineering and my masters in Petroleum engineering at Texas A&M.

Going to Drexel didn't help me get a job after college, but going to Texas A&M definitely got me the connections I needed to get a job after my masters. But again, the petroleum industry( upstream) it a very clicky thing. But then I had 4.0 doing my masters and 3.0 in my undergrad. Going to a school with connection helps, it doesn't have to be Ivy league. But again, there are other things that goes into the equation. GPA, personality, internship...

Post: #45

(12-19-2014 04:34 PM)BasketBounce Wrote:  I partly disagree with the people that say major in STEM.

S=Science. Majoring a "science" other than computer science really only prepares you for graduate school or to work in a lab as a research assistant. It doesn't sound like you want to go to graduate school since you say you don't want a PhD. Research assistant is cool if you really like being in a lab all day and taking orders from someone who went to more school than you did.

True if you study chemistry or biology. A degree in Physics gives you way more options.

T=technology. By all means, major in computer science, software engineering, etc. You'll gain a useful skill in coding, and by majoring in computer science, you will surround yourself with other people that are trying to code, so you can learn from them. However, it isn't really necessary to major in computer science to learn how to code. There are lots of resources on the web.

E=engineering. You're only immediately employable after college if you get an ABET degree; otherwise, you're looking at engineering grad school. Definitely worth it if you do ABET.

M=Math. Don't know much about the prospects for a Bachelor's in Mathematics.

Majoring in maths is pretty darn good. Gives you a very solid background for whatever you wanna do in live. Wall Street, Computer computer programmer, NASA, medical school, graduate school. You can really go wrong with maths if you like maths

Many people recommend majoring in hardcore sciences in order to get the most out of your education, but I contend that you are much better off developing a skill that you can market in the future. Instead of thinking about "what do I want to major in" the really important question to ask in college is "What do I want to accomplish, and what skills should I develop to help me accomplish that goal?" Our college years are a great time for searching for the answers to those questions.

I value college because it is just too easy to meet new people here. It's so easy to explore a new field and industry. If you don't like it, start all over again. So if you're in college and you're not paying for it, stay there and make the most of it. Like others before me have said, build relationships with a diverse group of people and always keep exploring. You might just stumble upon what you are passionate about.

Edit: Oh yeah, someone else said you need a degree to go into finance. That's true, and I'd say that is another good reason to go to college. That being said, all the major banking firms do not favor people of any particular major. You'd be better off majoring in something easy, getting a nice GPA, and just killing the interviews. Same thing with consulting; they don't really care about your major.

Post: #46

A lot of exceptional advice. If you had not made you mind already up, and just wanted validation (as most people do).

Best of luck!

Post: #47

(12-19-2014 04:34 PM)BasketBounce Wrote:  Edit: Oh yeah, someone else said you need a degree to go into finance. That's true, and I'd say that is another good reason to go to college. That being said, all the major banking firms do not favor people of any particular major. You'd be better off majoring in something easy, getting a nice GPA, and just killing the interviews. Same thing with consulting; they don't really care about your major.

Major IB (Investment Banking) firms do not favor any particular major but they absolutely recruit only out of elite universities. My brother worked at 3 different ones and was head of M&A at a bank which is a familiar name but primarily is a commercial bank.

I agree 100% about consulting. One of my daughters graduated from an excellent, but not elite school, UNC Chapel Hill with a sub 3.0 GPA in Public Policy. She thought school was complete bullshit but managed to stick it out and graduate in 4 years. She landed a job with a consulting firm which put her in their branch which provides services for medical practices. She is a good worker, smart, and interviews well.

Back to the OP's question, I agree that college is bullshit. But that degree will open doors, both professionally and socially. 2 1/2 years is a blink of the eye. Suck it up and do it.

Post: #48

(12-26-2014 07:59 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Stem degrees will be useless soon, let's not forget that the "lack of Americans in stem" is a lie by silicon Valley to bring in hordes of Indians and Chinese for pennies on the dollar compared to the salary of an American.

There was an oversupply of engineers during the late 90s and early 2000s, even during the 08 recession I saw an engineering (Mech, elec, plum) company go from 62 employees to just 24.

I'll write a more detailed post after I get home. Currently sitting on a sofa at an ikea showroom.

TL; DR Don't focus only on STEM category.
Pick field where
(1) Current incomes are high (Based on US Dept Labor, not brosurveys) and employment forecast to increase
(2) Where you have both a talent for and a liking for the field. I ended made a good living in the social sciences although in the healthcare sector of it.

I think STEM is to a degree an overgeneralization, even if you list the collage majors which would be an objective list. It's not as bad as "liberal" "conservative" and the other extremely vague things that people talk about thinking they are solid and real, but there are a lot of nuances.

I was a comp sci major for a couple years and got a job before I even graduated, but I didn't like programming.

I eventually got a doctorate in social sciences and made good money, not millionaire money, roughly comparable to programming.

I've made a living both for years each as a programmer and as a health care worker in the social sciences.

One reason I think STEM is an overgeneralization is that I don't know if it includes learning research methods, and how we know things.

===============

Comp Sci FORCES you to be objective because a program that works 99.7% of the time is a POS and will get you fired if you can't fix it.

Probably why few women become programmers. ;-)

As you learn to program, you realize fuzzy ideas and general thinking are pretty much useless, when debugging a loop in a program you have to reach a point w/~99.999% certainty that the controlling variable is going to be true or false, there is no in between.

In the process of learning how to think clearly and rigorously like that, you encounter how very false your feelings of confidence in what you know are.

Science, or pure logic like programming, is a humbling discipline.

NO programmer has existed who hasn't gotten frustrated and said "It SHOULD work!"

Then found his stupid error.

I remember an early day in the computer lab ( before personal computers were common) when I spent about six hours finding where I had a zero instead of the letter "O" when trying to debug a program.

============

So comp sci taught me that pragmatic logic is a hard mistress.

But it was research methods in social sciences that taught me the critical difference between empirical research and rationalist ("common sense") assumptions.

In real research, where you set things up and watch for results ( the details are a subject for a life-long career) sometimes results are opposite common sense conclusions.

Research can lead to wrong conclusions, but by definition that is flawed research.

For instance, regarding low fat diets, to my knowledge the original research leading to decades of advice against eating saturated fats was done on rabbits in the 1950s. Of course, rabbits are naturally a vegetarian animal, and they couldn't handle saturated fats.

Now it seems is is more complicated-- but extensive research on a large cohort of Seventh Day Adventists (7DA), who are almost all non-smoking vegetarians, showed a longer lifespan for them than other Americans.
One of the most important variables with longer life-span in 7DAs was frequent nut consumption.

So training in the social sciences trained me to be much more precise about understanding "What are exactly is someone discussing and measuring?"

Is someone who specializes in statistics in the social sciences a STEM graduate?

A publishing liberal social sciences professor will generally know far more about applied statistics than a computer programmer.

But is the Programmer a STEM guy and the SS guy is not?

As soon as you include the "T" in STEM you are including technology, which is not really "pure knowledge" but "how to get things done"

Maybe a better guide to high paying careers is :
1) Which careers are paying a lot now, and are not clearly already in decline in employment numbers. Also Barriers to entry are important, careers with licensing or certification provide you with a moat-- compare a math teacher to an actuary who has passed the exams. I believe the actuary provides more income.

Post: #49

If it weren't for the fact that a lot of employers do seem to use a bachelor degree as a way to weed out candidates for a job, I'd think that most college degrees are useless outside of the following general areas:

-Computer Science
-Practical Business: Accounting, or maybe even something like Management Information Systems
-Engineering
-Applied Mathematics or Statistics (coupled with some programming ability)

I think general science degrees, like Biology, Chem, and even Physics will be useless at the bachelors level, although maybe physics+coding ability could get you somewhere.

Just judge your degree for the signal it gives employers. When an employer looks at your degree, what skills do they assume you have given the degree?

I think I honestly wasted my efforts with my degree. I studied Business Economics, which despite what many say isn't a good signal on it's own, and didn't really focus on building my resume outside of school. I should have just majored in something easy as hell, and worked on my out of school projects, work experience, and maybe even started and failed at some side businesses. I'd be in a much better spot than I am now.

Post: #50

I just want somebody to crush quantum physics, and give us space travel.