Post: #51

I wrote a long post... but I want to summarize it in one paragraph.

You can use feedback as an aid to fix your mistakes and improve your strength, BUT the real problem is often what you're NOT doing, not that you're doing things wrong. Coming up with a game-plan that eliminates the need to run perfect game is the solution. Coming up with a game-plan is something that you can not do based on feedback.

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One of the classic ways to categorize your leads is into "Yes", "No" and "Maybe" categories.

A lot of guys say that a big part of game is avoiding fucking up with the "Yes" girls and converting or screening the "Maybe" girls. "No" girls shouldn't need to be screened because they are screening themselves.

I think that the term "Maybe" girls is misleading. "Maybe" girls are actually "Yes, but not yet as long as you don't fuck it up" girls or "No, but I'm willing to waste my time with you" girls.

For me game is:
1) Not fucking up with "Yes" girls
2) Accelerating the process for "Yes, but not yet as long as you don't fuck it up" girls
3) Screening out "No, but I'm willing to waste my time with you" girls.
4) Maxing myself and my approach out so that there fewer girls fall into the "No" category.

This is what I think about methods of getting feedback:

1) Post bang interviews - the issue with this is that you don't learn about weaknesses that you can improve, you only learn about your strengths. This is because you're only asking "Yes" girls for feedback. In my experience guys typically need to work on their weaknesses a lot more than on their strengths. However, post bang interviews can be good in general for A) learning how girls really express themselves and B) for figuring out if you have found a new niche.

2) Asking the girl what she thinks pre-bang - in my experience this only works if the question is about a specific situation, asked during that situation, and under the guise of getting to know her better.

3) Asking a girl's friend for feedback - Usually the answer is something real but unhelpful. "She likes guys that look like X", or "You're jobs not good enough", or "you guys just didn't have a connection". But these are not the real reason you didn't bang, the real reason is something you didn't do, not something you did.

@HighSpeed_LowDrag In my experience when a girl says "she didn't feel there was much of a connection" that is usually just a polite way to say she's not that into you. I have banged girls who told me that they didn't feel a connection to me, but they still wanted to bang.

@ElBorrachoInfamoso I agree that when you're running tight game you can often figure out exactly when and how you fucked up and sometimes think of a way to have turned the situation to your favor. That said I think the goal is to run such a powerful gameplan that you don't need to run it perfectly. A lot of my recent leveling up has been in this area. One of my girls said to me "sometimes I think I could never reach where you are", another girl said to a friend that she knew I was so different from everybody she had to stay with me. This only reason is because my gameplan.

On flaking - a lot of people, not just girls are really flaky. Flaking can be annoying and is definitely inconsiderate but often it not really a sign that a girl isn't into you. She is probably disorganized and forgetful to begin with (like most people). Things come up all the time for busy people with options and that isn't always a reflection of how into you she is.

@Roosh "There's even a drawback to listening to what she wants in the moment and then going off that". 1) So much of game is cultural and location specific but one invariant seems to be that girls want a guy who is consistent and doesn't change his opinions because of her. 2) In my experience usually when a girl says she "doesn't want a boyfriend" what she means is she "doesn't want a boyfriend who isn't exactly what she wants"

@Rollo "I chalk it up solely to me not having enough "value" to her". I totally agree with this. The trick is come across as having such broad and deep value that she can't ignore it.

@Lucky "I really do wish women were more introspective and honest though." It's true that there are plenty of women who are not introspective, but there are a lot of women who are introspective. The problem is often that we are not skilled or patient enough to communicate with them. It's definitely true that it's rare that she is going to be honest with you with feedback if she's not into you. Why would she? For most people it is hard work to provide helpful criticism. Also human beings have a poor track record of reacting to feedback with appreciation. Why should she think you'd be any different. It's much easier and less risky for her to not give you any feedback. The other side of this is that she is quite likely to not believe in the possibility of self improvement. She doesn't know you can change. So she just thinks "you guys are not a match", not "if only he played with my hair more I would be more turned on".

Post: #52

(11-28-2014 04:15 AM)civpro Wrote:  This is why I cannot agree with the community adage "You learn more from your failures than from your successes." What do you learn? You learn nothing. Women don't tell you why they reject you, and rejection is the result most of the time. And so this is why there are so many competing theories and opinions out there, why there so many guys running around like headless chickens, and why, dare I say, this whole community/industry exists.

You do. If you are smart enough you look over the interaction and look for rusty hinges where there was dead air, a loss in connection, rejected escalation.

You can reflect on success in the pass and see how you differed this time.

Once you've become an intermediate and had good success on getting 1st date bangs when you think you are close but don't score it usually is a mix of laziness and entitlement. Not paying close enough attention to details.

If if you don't reflect your gut will tell overtime on autopilot that you need to take action at certain points with a girl.

Post: #53

(11-28-2014 11:13 PM)bigbait Wrote:  You can use feedback as an aid to fix your mistakes and improve your strength, BUT the real problem is often what you're NOT doing, not that you're doing things wrong. Coming up with a game-plan that eliminates the need to run perfect game is the solution. Coming up with a game-plan is something that you can not do based on feedback.

This is a great point. There seems to be a natural assumption (and I'm guilty of it too) that if a girl doesn't want to sleep with me it's because I did something wrong. I rarely think about something I didn't do that might have made her want to sleep with me.

Post: #54

This question is more directly related to the natural laws of the dynamics between men and women, not what you "did wrong", because you can only really control the situation so much, and even less so if you ignore natural dynamics between men and women, and thus turn women off. So its not entirely up to you, but, you can greatly increase your odds by knowing what turns most women on or off.

Discussing and understanding the inherent psychological triggers and personality traits most women share is required to fully grasp what you did and didn't do right in a particular interaction. I am a firm believer this exists, and that we are not all unique individuals, that we all share traits and features in regards to relationships.

Post: #55

After every date we should give girls a receipt that tells them if they fill out an online survey they may win a prize. That way we could get feedback and do better analysis to improve performance in upcoming quarters.

Post: #56

Sometimes, if we have enough experience, we can reflect back and identify the exact moment where we lost the girl.

Other times, we seem to do everything right and we still lose the girl.

The human mind can be a mystery. Sometimes, we will never know exactly what we did "wrong".

Nowadays, when a girl rejects me, I just say that she is stupid and she doesn't know what is good for her.

I often don't even care to know her reasons..

There are too many other girls out there and I still have plenty of weaknesses that I need to work on.

Post: #57

You guys got to understand that when you penetrate a woman she is sort of stuck with you for some time.

After sex there will be a relationship formed( it could be a fling, could be 3 year relationship, could even be marriage, who knows!)

That's a lot weight on her.

In my experience girls that I sleep with usually ends up in something that lasts at least a couple of months.

Post: #58

It's frustrating if she stops responding after you had a great time with her.
'Did she look me up on google and found something?'
'Did my breath stink?'
'Did she find a better guy?'
A lot of things can run through your head.

It would be nice if she gives you an honest feedback so you can DO BETTER in the future. But who cares? It's none of her business. She doesn't owe you shit.

It's like you met some other guy and noticed something very awkward. Do you care about this guy you just met and would you give him some advice? It would put you in very weird spot to say 'hey man, to be honest.....you are...'
(usually people get offended by your honest comment anyways, so why bother?)

Small business owners would relate to this as well. (pretty much same principle)
When customers Break up with you, you are the one who has to figure it out.

In the end, nobody cares about you. you would have to figure it out on your own.

Post: #59

I view game a lot like I do playing no limit Texas hold em.
Many of the same psychological principles apply.
Your hole cards (appearance) are important, but your actions and the perception of your relative strength or weakness matter even more.
The higher stakes the game, or the hotter the chick, the more complex are the risks.
All the while, you play along a razor's edge, for the highest stakes, which is why both game and poker are so exciting and stimulating.
If you don't occasionally fail at poker, and get called on a bluff, you aren't pushing hard enough.
The same goes with game. 100% closing success would mean you are not aiming high enough in quality. It would also be boring.
With Roosh's vast experience in game, the fact that he doesn't always close, means that he is still ambitious, which is a good thing.
Also, assuming you are not new to game or to poker and have a lot of experience, going back and reliving the "bad beat" will just cloud your judgement for the next hand that you are playing.

Post: #60

So I met a girl in a club and very early she tells me what she wants:

"I want a serious relationship that has a future to it."

There was no ambiguity in her statement and she seemed quite sincere. If I was in Ukraine, I would have taken her literally and put out more of a provider game, but the past week or so I'm really questioning statements like this. So I ignored it completely and went full caveman. We were fucking within 4 hours, some porn star level shit.

If I accepted her statement at face value, I wouldn't have gotten anything, and then I would have wondered why since I was doing what she claimed she wanted.

I don't think you can possibly ask for feedback from a girl and expect actionable advice on how to game her unless she is hyper self-aware or very traditional. You just must apply a default game that works most of the time, and that game should be being a sexy, high-value man that she wants to fuck. Anytime I tried to change that up, I was disappointed.

Post: #61

(12-05-2014 07:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  So I met a girl in a club and very early she tells me what she wants:

"I want a serious relationship that has a future to it."

There was no ambiguity in her statement and she seemed quite sincere. If I was in Ukraine, I would have taken her literally and put out more of a provider game, but the past week or so I'm really questioning statements like this. So I ignored it completely and went full caveman. We were fucking within 4 hours, some porn star level shit.

If I accepted her statement at face value, I wouldn't have gotten anything, and then I would have wondered why since I was doing what she claimed she wanted.

I don't think you can possibly ask for feedback form a girl and expect actionable advice on how to game her unless she is hyper self-aware or very traditional. You just must apply a default game that works most of the time, and that game should be being a sexy, high-value man that she wants to fuck. Anytime I tried to change that up, I was disappointed.

Ignore b*tches, get laid.

The words of a wise man.

HSLD

Post: #62

(12-05-2014 07:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  So I met a girl in a club and very early she tells me what she wants:

"I want a serious relationship that has a future to it."

There was no ambiguity in her statement and she seemed quite sincere. If I was in Ukraine, I would have taken her literally and put out more of a provider game, but the past week or so I'm really questioning statements like this. So I ignored it completely and went full caveman. We were fucking within 4 hours, some porn star level shit.

If I accepted her statement at face value, I wouldn't have gotten anything, and then I would have wondered why since I was doing what she claimed she wanted.

I don't think you can possibly ask for feedback form a girl and expect actionable advice on how to game her unless she is hyper self-aware or very traditional. You just must apply a default game that works most of the time, and that game should be being a sexy, high-value man that she wants to fuck. Anytime I tried to change that up, I was disappointed.

You're basically running an R selection game here. All women want to be in serious relationships but they also want to have exciting sex outside of a relationship.

Post: #63

How could she be saying that flat out without getting to know you a bit first?
She seems to be playing games with emotions and such.

Post: #64

(12-05-2014 07:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  So I met a girl in a club and very early she tells me what she wants:

"I want a serious relationship that has a future to it."

There was no ambiguity in her statement and she seemed quite sincere. If I was in Ukraine, I would have taken her literally and put out more of a provider game, but the past week or so I'm really questioning statements like this. So I ignored it completely and went full caveman. We were fucking within 4 hours, some porn star level shit.

If I accepted her statement at face value, I wouldn't have gotten anything, and then I would have wondered why since I was doing what she claimed she wanted.

I don't think you can possibly ask for feedback form a girl and expect actionable advice on how to game her unless she is hyper self-aware or very traditional. You just must apply a default game that works most of the time, and that game should be being a sexy, high-value man that she wants to fuck. Anytime I tried to change that up, I was disappointed.

That's absolutely true. I actually botched quite a few approaches and make-outs, because I believed their crap. Nevermore - her body language, eyes and pussy speak much more truth than her mouth.

We as men have to take our experiences and calibrate when going forward. Some of the stuff they say are almost utterly meaningless:

"I only want to have a meaningful relationship."
"There is not going to be sex tonight."
"I slowly wish to settle down with someone."

While the conscious brain of women is one thing and a few are actually quite self-aware and can differentiate between their mind, their intuition, their emotions and their sexual drives - most women are hardly aware of those 4 elements influencing them. That's why asking women what they like or did not like is only partly useful - similar to you asking a 6 year old why he picked this backpack or toy and what his motivations were.

Post: #65

To put it short-cut, the subconscious of a woman normally wants sex, while her conscience normally wants a relationship.
Some women show that crystal clear, others want men to suffer in order to just decode their mentality, just to know how these women think

Post: #66

that's been game 101 from day one.. ignore what they say, pay attention to what they do and how they respond in real time.

Post: #67

^^^ Roosh's post above should get a sticky and go in the "best of forum" category.

Pretty much lines up with what Chris from GLL preaches, too.

Post: #68

Long post. First part addresses how I've gotten trustworthy feedback, to answer the original question. I didn't get the bang, and I know why. Second part shows when a bitch offers feedback that is not trustworthy.

Trustworthy feedback

(11-26-2014 11:33 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The only solution I have is to find out what type of game would work on her first (i.e. ask relatively early what type of man she likes, see what her most recent ex was like), and then proceed accordingly. Otherwise we will spit a default game that may be way off and lead to failure.

It might be a bit difficult to do the above, because of what Ensam says:

(11-27-2014 01:57 AM)Ensam Wrote:  You're assuming girls can give honest feedback... the girl might not even know herself why she wasn't into it.

Not to mention girls will never divulge to guys the juicy details of how a player banged them within an hour of meeting them next to a dumpster. However, there is a subset of girls, in my experience, that have no problems being honest.

To be specific, I've had a few girls say straight up, that I wanted the sex too badly, and they wanted something more serious. The most recent example of this was a girl I pulled from online, who stated from the get-go that she was interested in long-term relationships, and potentially wanted to get married. I had qualms about pursuing, since she wasn't that hot, the ROI would have been subpar, and I had no desire to damage a perfectly viable young 20yo. But I proceeded nonetheless with super long, indirect game, because it's winter and I'm in a mini-dry spell. After an ice cream, lunch, and another ice cream spread out across 3 weeks, on the 4th 'date,' she came to my place for a 'movie,' sucked my dick and gave me a horrible handjob where she almost ripped my dick off.

Here is where I fucked up. I started getting into the 'fun sex' vibe, instead of playing it cool and indirect. I talked dirty, complimented her in funny ways, basically let loose with a bit of a player vibe. I didn't get the bang that night, and a few days later, she responded to my ping saying, and I quote:

"Hey Kamikaze, I've thought about whether I would want to further anything with you and the truth is I don't think we're looking for the same thing, etc etc."

There are two reasons I received this feedback. First, and most importantly, is the girl. She's a young yet old-school latina (raised in the states, which is surprising) who's unafraid of stating what she wants, dealing clean cuts to those who waste her time. These girls are extremely rare, and more likely keepers than not, in my estimation. Second, I fucked up my chances by exposing my player-card after going the provider route from the beginning. I definitely scared the cat. Sure I had poor game, but sometimes it's hard for me to stay in that indirect, aloof, sedated, asexual boyfriend state of mind when I'm in a dry spell and have my dick in a girl's mouth.

Goes to show, the game ain't over until the payload has been delivered to the mothership.

Deceptive feedback

(12-05-2014 07:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  So I met a girl in a club and very early she tells me what she wants:

"I want a serious relationship that has a future to it."

... So I ignored it completely and went full caveman. We were fucking within 4 hours, some porn star level shit.

An experienced dude like Roosh can sniff out such a declaration of virtue in a club as highly suspicious. There's a reason many players recommend different personas in day and night game.

It's safe to say if she likes clubs, chances are she likes to get clubbed by dicks. Proceed the player route.

Asking what she likes in order to decide whether to go the boyfriend or player route is probably going to be unfruitful, unless you come across one of these rare, old-school husband poachers. I haven't tried this, but it might be more effective to choose your strategy early on by asking indirect questions to try and pin them, such as getting their opinion on clubs, babies, drugs including weed, etc. It may be easier to guess what she wants by association of what gets her truly riled up.

Post: #69

If somebody want to learn all aspects of game then by default does that mean they just want to have as much sex as possible while skipping commitment such as marriage and children?

Post: #70

^^^

I don't want to sound like I know more than I do, but here goes.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting marriage, as long as you know what the current state of affairs is. One, recognize marriage laws are stacked against men. And two, recognize that women today are nothing like women 30 years ago.

Susan Cain wrote a book called "Quiet," a book about introversion and how introverts have positive traits that are nevertheless looked down upon in today's society. In the introduction to the book, she states the following:

Quote:We went from what cultural historians call a "culture of character" which valued moral rectitude to a "culture of personality" which we’re still living in today. We suddenly began to admire people because they were charismatic and magnetic.

For better or worse, women want charisma and magnetism, so we develop them through Game to better our chances with a majority of women.

Today, you will be hard pressed to find women subscribing to the old-school culture of character. If your strategy as a man to get women is to live a life of 'moral rectitude' in order to impress the ladies with your 'provider' abilities, you will be drawing from a thinner pool than ever before, because that's no longer the dream. Not to mention, in order to nab that unicorn in the first place, you'll have to display some charisma in order to draw her to you. You need Game for these bitches anyway, so might as well practice for the one bitch that may never come. You will also need Game to keep them in line, to subtly let them know they ain't shit and you can always walk the fuck out and find new young pussy.

For the record, I do believe there are such broads. Call me naive, but fuck it, I've met some great girls. However, as has been repeated on the forum 24351123 times, the pickings are slim from girls who've grown up in the modern US.

Post: #71

I remember over a year ago, after our 1st date I brought this girl back to my place. Long story short, we are both naked and she pulls LMR on me by saying " Just making it clear we arent going to have sex". We end up in 69 for a while and with my dick physically on her pussy I thought to myself to just stick it in. Yet I was actually afraid she would flip the script and accuse me of rape or something stupid so I resisted myself. How would you guys handle this sort of situation?

Post: #72

(12-06-2014 06:59 AM)sandman972 Wrote:  I remember over a year ago, after our 1st date I brought this girl back to my place. Long story short, we are both naked and she pulls LMR on me by saying " Just making it clear we arent going to have sex". We end up in 69 for a while and with my dick physically on her pussy I thought to myself to just stick it in. Yet I was actually afraid she would flip the script and accuse me of rape or something stupid so I resisted myself. How would you guys handle this sort of situation?

That's funny because to me it seems that if you get as far as 69, then frequently, the girl will have difficulties continuing to say NO... and then if you later get the right angle where your dick is on her pussy, then you just might say something like: "I am just going to put the tip in," and then see what she says... It is NOT really asking even though it kind of is... and then the bang seems to become inevitable from there.

My experience anyhow if girls go so far as permitting you to eat their pussies, then it becomes really difficult for them to stop the next part (banging)... and they tend to become much more compliant at that point.

A guy's eating the pussy is much different than her giving a blow job to him... Surely some girls get excited about giving blow jobs, but really NO where near the level of excitement when a guy performs a decent lubing up of her pussy with his tongue mouth and saliva.

Maybe milage varies in this regard, but my experience with a large number of girls has been that pussy eating tends to make them become very vulnerable to melting... maybe even more so than alcohol - even though alcohol does frequently loosen matters up, too... (hahahahahahaha.. maybe it is just my skills in the pussy eating regard..?, which i am NOT sure whether I should be proud of my purporting to have such skills... .).

Post: #73

I was thinking posting in the sudden behavior change thread.But I think I would get better input here.

Lately in having the problem is girls dropping the fade on me after things are going good.
One girl..made it..smashed on first date..then she completely disappeared. I can chalk this one up to her one night standing me.

But one girl..I went out with, everything was great..we made out multiple times.
Kept talking for a couple days after trying to set up better logistics..then she just fades on me.

Another girl..had date set up..she works near me..then she fades.

This has now happened 4 times, that I've met a girl once..date went great, was able to ramp up. But not bang...or we start talking and then she just stops answering calls and text.

I haven't changed up my game at all..
..I just can't figure out why chick are consistently dropping before the bang

Post: #74

Are you being too needy, Sourcecode?

Post: #75

I think maybe Im being to domineering early own.
With the last girl I kept around.. She was really submissive and I became really dominant in speech.

I think I might be a little to domineering over text and calls.
While girls want guys to make the choices.. maybe Im being to forceful.
The last girl.. I picked the outfit I wanted her to wear when she met met....got the make out and such.. but never made it to second day.
*now that I think about it..she did make a comment about me being snappy or something.