Post: #26

Hey dude this is a good question. I'm looking forward to a reasonable framework on how to tackle this problem.

Post: #27

There's just too many variables.

If you stop and logically analyze every single detail of an interaction you could probably say it was because your game was not on point, too cocky, too aggressive, etc.

If you ask a girl she'll just give a general "there was no connection". It could be because she's not ovulating, she has a fuck buddy, you remind her of her last bf who used to beat her, she doesn't get along with scorpios, she's on her period, her dog died, she's too focused on her career.... It could be anything!!

It's good to sharpen your game but at what point do we stop analyzing and say fuck it, it's out of my control. I did everything right.

Post: #28

On point:

"In short, on any given day there's a certain amount of girls that are sexually available (to be picked up) and a certain amount of that ARE NOT. Regardless of what you or I do, we cannot get the girls that ARE NOT available. There's an infinite amount of potential reasons that a girl maybe be sexually unavailable for you or I.

Here are some reasons-

She has a boyfriend.
She has a husband.
She has a lesbian lover.
She got drunk last night and she's hungover, not looking to talk to new people.
She is super emotional today.
She already has a fuckbuddy.
She already has 10 fuckbuddies.
She doesn't EVER have fuckbuddies.
She is a super conservative girl that doesn't have sex without being married for 4 years.
She already got fucked that day by a thick cock.
She had a bad experience from the last guy that picked her up.
Her friends are there and they will judge her.
She has to wake up early in the morning. (logistics)
She has to go home early that night.
She is on her period.
She thinks she is on her period.
She thinks she is pregnant.
She doesn't have casual sex.
She is a drug addict.
She didn't take her anti-depression medicine (welcome to Los Angeles).
She is just out for attention.
You look like her ex-boyfriend that she hates.
She doesn't think it's appropriate to meet people at _____.
She doesn't like players, she only likes nice guys and fucks them after 10 dates.
She doesn't think she looks good.
She's just a fucking weirdo at all times.
She heard a story from a friend that makes her hate guys for a week or two.
She's obsessed with some other guy.
She's obsessed with her ex-boyfriend.
She wants a boyfriend.
She doesn't know what the fuck she wants.
She had a bad day.
She's scared of guys at bars.
She's scared of guys at clubs.
She's scared of guys that talk to her during the day.
She doesn't know how to show guys that she's DTF.
Okay, some of those are far-fetched, some of those are COMPLETELY realistic and common.

No where in there did I say "you are too ugly" "you are too much of a fucking loser," I didn't say that, right?

The point is-

NONE of them are your fault.

NONE of them can you control.

I'll repeat that-

NONE of them are your fault.

NONE of them can you control."

http://www.goodlookingloser.com/more/arc...bers-game/

Post: #29

I believe asking this question is fruitless, because if your game was otherwise on point, a clear logical answer does not exist.

It's all in her feeling brain. At that particular moment in time.

Women don't know the reason themselves. It's like asking a child why they chose chocolate ice cream instead of strawberry. Fuck if they know the reason. They just live in the moment, and decide.

They simply feel it, or they don't.

All we can do as men is to try to make them feel something.

Trying to find a logical reason will just drive you mad.

Post: #30

There's even a drawback to listening to what she wants in the moment and then going off that. For example, I had a girl tell me she doesn't want a boyfriend or anything serious. So she wants a hookup then. I turned on the player vibe a bit, but at the end she said... "I don't know... you only want sex." Bitch, I thought that's what you wanted!

So really we have to know what a girl wants more than what she thinks she wants. On one hand we can go in with a default game that works a good percentage of the time, or customize it based on the girl, but if we customize it (which is much trickier), we have to go by our intuition of what the girl actually wants and not her verbal declaration, which can be very wrong. I feel like customization can take your game to the true next level, but it's too complex and relies on intense reading skills; practically mind reading.

Also at my age, having been in the game for so long, I hate even a single failure. I can't tolerate them like I used to. Perhaps this is ego (i.e. I'm at a certain level of game and should close all girls who showed interest in me), but I think I will have to let this go or else I'll drive myself mad.

Post: #31

But doesn't what women want changes all the freaking time? What she wants is based on emotion and that is about as reliable as Paris' weather. That, and also the same-old "women don't know what the fuck they want"

I guess if you can have some deep-level psychoanalysis read on her to know what she wants on a deep, subconscious level (not just the primal biological stuff we talk about all the time here), something specific to her psychological roadmap then that could definitely work. I've seen it a couple times: young 25 year old girl has daddy problem so she seeks a replacement --> her 50 year old teacher swoops in, but the guy does have game.

The danger in trying to know what she want and calibrate is that, we risk getting too invested. By trying to read people mind you also touch some deep stuff in your own mind.

Post: #32

The reverse is true as well. If she fucks you, is it because of what you said, what you did, what you look like?

But if we permit ourselves to run down that path....

I've told this story before. Homeboy met this chick, took her out, and she wanted nothing to do with him. She sees him out at the club and suddenly she has to have him.

They just had birthday party for their one year old.


The lack of certainty, the undependable nature of the game will lead you to despondency or to enlightenment.

WIA

Post: #33

The thing about customization game with a new chick will always be that there a certain of amount of assumption that the player takes.

It's been well noted that at the drop of the hat; she changes course, forcing him to have to recalibrate

Some bangs don't happen because you can't replicate the initial magic on subsequent outings and the window of opportunity closes and soon as it appears, some situations stall because I simply don't have time to see it through to completion (long game)

When the smoke clears - using something resembling your best all-purpose game with a twist customization seems to work best because 90% of time she will say what she thinks she SHOULD be saying to a high quality guy anyway.

Post: #34

Reminds me of a post by Rollo

http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/06/th...e-message/

Quote:I hate the term ‘Mixed Signals’ or ‘Mixed Messages’. More often than not there’s nothing ‘Mixed’ being communicated and rather it’s a failure (willful or not) to read what a woman is communicating to a man.

Post: #35

I think trying to find this out will be a fools errand. I'm pretty transactional in my life and when I get rejected I chalk it up solely to me not having enough "value" to her. Whatever that value may be.

Post: #36

If it's the first time you met the girl, sometimes she just won't have a ONS, period.

Usually you can tell by if she wants to meet again. If you met the first time and were escalating to kisses, touching etc. but no bang, then the second or third time you see her should seal the deal. If it doesn't then yes you fucked up somewhere, but a lot of the time it's if the girl is looking for a LTR and doesn't want to be used.

Post: #37

(11-27-2014 12:16 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  There is only ever one reason - fear.

Finding the source of the fear - what's behind it - is what you are looking for.

This seems far too simplistic.

I don't think large generalizations like that help guys take actionable steps to improve themselves.

Post: #38

(11-27-2014 11:19 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Seeing her was one thing. But then I noticed she was overly drunk, and walking around on her own approaching dudes for dances. I saw her makeout with one or two guys.

Did she give off slut tells looking back now?

I love sluts when they look, act, and tell you upfront they are sluts. I don't like the mind fuck from finding out a supposedly good girl actor is a slut. I don't think I will ever get over that, but I do notice the signs more readily now.

Post: #39

This is why I cannot agree with the community adage "You learn more from your failures than from your successes." What do you learn? You learn nothing. Women don't tell you why they reject you, and rejection is the result most of the time. And so this is why there are so many competing theories and opinions out there, why there so many guys running around like headless chickens, and why, dare I say, this whole community/industry exists.

Post: #40

(11-27-2014 01:04 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  There are three things in this world that are invariably different from each other:
What a woman says, what a woman truly thinks, and what a woman does.

Asking her for her opinion on why you failed will be a pointless endeavour because (a) she will lie to you, and (b) because she probably is not even capable of consciously knowing why.

Exactly. If a woman's word was reliable, men wouldn't have ever needed to learn game in the first place.

But since we cannot trust a woman's word, we must use behaviorism to understand them.

"If I say this, she likes it more or less."
"If I use these dance moves, she's more likely to leave the venue with me."
"If I behave this way, I can expect her to behave another way."

It's all behaviorism. And the problem with behaviorism is that there's no way to falsify your actions. You cannot go back in time to the same moment with a woman and try out different actions until you figure out what it would have taken to bang her. There's just no way to know using behavioristic tactics.

Even more confusing is when you run game on a girl, it fails, see her another time RUN THE EXACT SAME GAME and then it succeeds. Another instance I've had: Run game on girl, it fails, see her again, don't run game at all, get the bang because she asks for it (that's only happened to me once).

Pretty much I cannot spot any concrete patterns other than a standard base level of game applicable to all chicks, and the rest is guessing.

Post: #41

(11-27-2014 07:28 PM)Roosh Wrote:  There's even a drawback to listening to what she wants in the moment and then going off that. For example, I had a girl tell me she doesn't want a boyfriend or anything serious. So she wants a hookup then. I turned on the player vibe a bit, but at the end she said... "I don't know... you only want sex." Bitch, I thought that's what you wanted!

So really we have to know what a girl wants more than what she thinks she wants. On one hand we can go in with a default game that works a good percentage of the time, or customize it based on the girl, but if we customize it (which is much trickier), we have to go by our intuition of what the girl actually wants and not her verbal declaration, which can be very wrong. I feel like customization can take your game to the true next level, but it's too complex and relies on intense reading skills; practically mind reading.

Exactly, asking a woman is ridiculous idea in my opinion.

However there is a way to find out what makes a girl tick, what she responds to. Let's call it her blueprint. To screen for a blueprint you think of blueprints that are common and ask questions or do little tests that are indicative of such blueprints.

When you screen for her blueprint, you can also direct her blueprint [if you’re sneaky]. Like when you’re screening for availability or logistics [or whatever] there is a way to ask a question in a way that the answer your shoot for looks like better answer than the one the girl might actually want to give you [for whatever reasons].

Example: Screening for pulling. Asking “How protective are your friends” might be too obvious about your true intentions and it makes it very easy for a girl to say "yeah they care for me a lot". Instead it's possible to phrase the same question in a way that it "suggests" the right answer... "hey your friends, are they extremely uptight types that they completely freak out and call the police if you walk 5 feet away from them, or are they cool people who know how to chill and who realize that you’re an adult?”. That question basically mocks the wrong answer [wrong to you] and appreciates the right answer [right for you]. It's more likely she will say "oh no they're cool about it they understand it". So it's like you encourage the proper answer and behavior you want. That formula can be used for anything actually.

Example: The "girl who prefers rules and structure" blueprint. You can simply ask her if she’s the type of person that likes rules and structure and plans, and likes to know where you’re going in life, or if she’s the type of person that’s rather free and prefers figuring it out along the way spontaneously. With such knowledge, you can either go with it showing her you're the same to create rapport or go completely against it disqualifying that ["oh that's terrible you know, love and real connection between two people can't be preplanned and structured so if that's the formula you use for getting to know other people as well then we're not going to get along at all sorry"]. That might crush her worldview which allows you to take control.

Example: A girl says she doesn't want a boyfriend or anything serious. That can be a lie or a shittest or whatever actually. You can dig deep and question her attitude [disqualify so that she will want to prove herself] or ask how adventurous she is actually and what was the most crazy thing she did lately [screening for blueprint]. After that you can say stuff like "i get it, you value strong emotions unpredictable nature of life and that incredible adrenaline rush that doing spontaneous things gives you, and when you look at regular people bored with their long term partners you are disgusted by it and feel sorry for them for not living their life to the fullest" [directing blueprint]. She's likely to admit it so that you can qualify more why you love that attitude and that you're both lucky you met because there are so few people like her blablabla. Which she's likely to agree with. And it turns into one big "yes ladder" that she's so invested in that role that she can't get out of.

The rule is.. you qualify towards the end that you have in mind. Such an end could be sex, date, relationship, threesome, etc. All those end goals require different screening/qualifying. If there is a chance for SNL you qualify/direct risky, adventurous, spontaneous behaviors and disqualify serious uptight behavior. Same with relationships, dates or threesomes etc.

So to summarize, you’re screening for what you want and you’re encouraging what you want by appreciating that specific set of behavior and presenting things in such a way that what you want seems like the good option and what you don’t want seems like the bad option.

Post: #42

(11-28-2014 05:30 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(11-27-2014 01:04 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  There are three things in this world that are invariably different from each other:
What a woman says, what a woman truly thinks, and what a woman does.

Asking her for her opinion on why you failed will be a pointless endeavour because (a) she will lie to you, and (b) because she probably is not even capable of consciously knowing why.

Exactly. If a woman's word was reliable, men wouldn't have ever needed to learn game in the first place.

But since we cannot trust a woman's word, we must use behaviorism to understand them.

"If I say this, she likes it more or less."
"If I use these dance moves, she's more likely to leave the venue with me."
"If I behave this way, I can expect her to behave another way."

It's all behaviorism. And the problem with behaviorism is that there's no way to falsify your actions. You cannot go back in time to the same moment with a woman and try out different actions until you figure out what it would have taken to bang her. There's just no way to know using behavioristic tactics.

Even more confusing is when you run game on a girl, it fails, see her another time RUN THE EXACT SAME GAME and then it succeeds. Another instance I've had: Run game on girl, it fails, see her again, don't run game at all, get the bang because she asks for it (that's only happened to me once).

Pretty much I cannot spot any concrete patterns other than a standard base level of game applicable to all chicks, and the rest is guessing.

I think this analysis is closest to getting at the truth to what we're trying to find in this thread. We, as problem-solving men, try to find recurrent themes in what we do and experience so we can operationalize and standardize our approach to dealing with situations. This works with men because we are usually consistent in how we deal with situations and problems. It doesn't work as simply with women. They are too arbitrary and unpredictable in their decision-making processes.

Post: #43

(11-27-2014 08:16 AM)bojangles Wrote:  I've been doing a post bang or non bang interview (learnt this from Krauser)

When you get a girl back to yours, once the sex or the sex is or isnt happening, just ask questions like 'when were you first attracted to me' 'when did you know we were gonna fuck'. You'll know where you're going right.

That's the way frankly without costing you notches.

Post: #44

I'll actually ask girls why they're saying no.

The problem is most women can't explain why they are or aren't attracted. They give vague answers or say things that clearly aren't true. I suspect many women do know instinctively, but are afraid to say, the same way many men will say "we're not compatible" rather than "you're too fat and ugly."

When women are honest a common recurring reason is other dudes. She's seeing multiple men, and an old bf or higher status dude is coming back into her life. It isn't necessarily that your game is bad, it's that it's not as good, or that you don't have the history of captain pump and dump who left her and then came back to town. When you're dealing with very attractive women, they have a dozen different dudes trying to fuck at any given time. If you want to test this theory out, when she gives her no, just smirk, hold eye contact and say "who is he?" She'll act guilty and weird, and then you know. Add "look, you don't know what I have to offer, either you're getting it somewhere else. Which is it?" Get ready for a story that'll make you cringe.

The other recurring reason I've had is too heavy a player vibe. She is afraid I'll bail. This will come from the sluttiest girls who acts like she doesn't care if you come in her hair and never call her again. Think about how bad most women's game is and then think about how little thought or analysis they must put into their subtle signals.

But that's just me. It could be a million things. Short of reading her mind or hacking her cell phone and facebook account (PM if you've got skills) you may never know on some.

Post: #45

I believe most bangs are pre-determined in a way (the primal,feral, animalistic ones at least.)

Girls know, almost instantly, whether they will bang you or not. A lot of this really comes down to your look, especially if the girl is young. It really is that simple. All game can do is help you maneuver yourself socially by passing some tests and making the bang happen "organically".

Game cannot incite a woman's hot feral desire for you. Game can help direct her desire for you,if it's already there, but it cannot ignite it.

Reading some of Rollo's posts and looking back at my past experiences, I've finally connected the dots and realized that the red pill has a lot of answers for where game falters.

Some of Rollo's post that I recommend reading are:
Looks Count
The Desire Dynamic
Saving the Best

P.S
Tengen's post on mixed signals up above is good also:

(11-27-2014 08:30 PM)Tengen Wrote:  Reminds me of a post by Rollo

http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/06/th...e-message/

Quote:I hate the term ‘Mixed Signals’ or ‘Mixed Messages’. More often than not there’s nothing ‘Mixed’ being communicated and rather it’s a failure (willful or not) to read what a woman is communicating to a man.

Post: #46

The first bang I ever achieved because of game the girl told me before the date "we're just going as friends, right?"

I was so excited that a girl had even agreed to go out with me that I agreed and didn't think much about how to lead into sex.

On the first date I got everything but her panties off, plus some fingering.

On the second date we banged.

"Just friends, right?"

After we fucked she told me she didn't want a relationship because they were complicated but she also didn't want to just have sex.

We became fuck buddies for about 2 months until she said it "wasn't going anywhere" meaning it wasn't turning into a relationship.

I was confused by this and still am to some degree but it's part of the game. I really do wish women were more introspective and honest though.

Post: #47

I've very recently started doing something with a friend to get better info on what I did wrong, but it only works if you fail at the venue where you meet the girl.

Step 1: Have a friend with you.
Step 2: Approach a girl without letting her know that you and your friend know each other.
Step 3: Somehow fail with the girl.
Step 4: Your friend approaches the girl shortly after and acts like a curious onlooker, "Ha, I noticed that guy's macking attempt didn't work out too well. I've got to go but I find this stuff really interesting so I had to ask real quick, why didn't you like that guy?"

I did this once the last time I went out, and plan to try it more tonight. The girls actually said some pretty harsh things about me to my friend, so I take this as a good sign for the technique (that it causes girls to reveal things they'd never reveal directly).

Not a perfect source of info, but I think it's more honest then when a girl is asked to explain herself directly to the guy she rejected.

Post: #48

^^ This is a great idea Talekhine. Girls love to dish on guys when they think he isn't listening. Rep point given.

Post: #49

(11-27-2014 04:09 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  Something that I've tried doing is asking her (if she declines a second or third date) what it was that led her to so decline. It was in relation to a sticking point I've noticed I'd been having with first dates.

I had three first dates that turned out much in the same manner - I would build enough rapport and attraction (I think) that I could go for the kiss and not get face turned. I would manoeuvre the date into a place where I could sexually escalate from there, but in all three cases I got stymied by the girls once I tried to go any further than making out with them.

I asked two of the girls (by text message) afterwards why they declined to meet up again, and was actually surprised that both times they said that they "didn't feel there was much of a connection." In fact, both of them used that line almost verbatim.

My guess from that is that while I have the rapport and attraction down, I didn't build up enough comfort to prevent triggering ASD when I escalated sexually past a makeout. It's a point I'm keeping in mind on future first dates.

Granted, this idea has the same problem as many of the others, in that it relies on getting honest, conscious feedback from the girl, but it's something at least.

HSLD

I've had this happen a few times as well. Just this week in fact a girl that I've been hanging out with for a few weeks broke it off with me, in her words, 'because the chemistry wasn't right' and I was 'coming on too strongly'.

The first time I brought her back to my place we got to 2nd base but she 'wanted to take it slow'. I did the 'gentleman' thing, and hung out with her a couple times just trying to build comfort (mistake). Then a couple days ago she was all about hanging out at my place, I do what I always do, and attmepted to escalate, but she wouldn't go beyond making out and says she only will sleep with guys she's dating.

I play it cool, say ok, put her on radio silence, and then get she calls me to break it off two days later. Who knows... 90% of the time this stragegy works, and girls that are willing to makeout/hangout at my place are willing to have sex. I think there are some girls who just don't sleep with guys in a reasonable time frame, which also probably why she was single in the first place.

Who knows, next...

Post: #50

(11-28-2014 10:15 PM)ordinaryleastsquared Wrote:  

(11-27-2014 04:09 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  Something that I've tried doing is asking her (if she declines a second or third date) what it was that led her to so decline. It was in relation to a sticking point I've noticed I'd been having with first dates.

I had three first dates that turned out much in the same manner - I would build enough rapport and attraction (I think) that I could go for the kiss and not get face turned. I would manoeuvre the date into a place where I could sexually escalate from there, but in all three cases I got stymied by the girls once I tried to go any further than making out with them.

I asked two of the girls (by text message) afterwards why they declined to meet up again, and was actually surprised that both times they said that they "didn't feel there was much of a connection." In fact, both of them used that line almost verbatim.

My guess from that is that while I have the rapport and attraction down, I didn't build up enough comfort to prevent triggering ASD when I escalated sexually past a makeout. It's a point I'm keeping in mind on future first dates.

Granted, this idea has the same problem as many of the others, in that it relies on getting honest, conscious feedback from the girl, but it's something at least.

HSLD

I've had this happen a few times as well. Just this week in fact a girl that I've been hanging out with for a few weeks broke it off with me, in her words, 'because the chemistry wasn't right' and I was 'coming on too strongly'.

The first time I brought her back to my place we got to 2nd base but she 'wanted to take it slow'. I did the 'gentleman' thing, and hung out with her a couple times just trying to build comfort (mistake). Then a couple days ago she was all about hanging out at my place, I do what I always do, and attmepted to escalate, but she wouldn't go beyond making out and says she only will sleep with guys she's dating.

I play it cool, say ok, put her on radio silence, and then she calls me to break it off two days later. Who knows... 90% of the time this stragegy works, and girls that are willing to makeout/hangout at my place are willing to have sex. I think there are some girls who just don't sleep with guys in a reasonable time frame, which also probably why she was single in the first place.

Who knows, next...