RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
Bringing in immigrants from the third world on the basis of dealing with declining birth rates and demographics is some wholly short term solution. There are so many incentives that can be put in place that would bring back traditional family structures and high birth rates within a couple of generation, that even a first year economics student could propose.
Then there is the question of sovereignty, how can a democratically elected government by the country's people, be so willingly allowed to change allegiances to gain votes from the citizens of another sovereign nation. Again its rational thought here that is completely missing. In essence the U.S has just declared itself as a international corporation rather than a nation state with an elected government.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 09:17 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:
(11-20-2014 02:54 AM)Deluge Wrote:
(11-20-2014 02:41 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote: Matt Forney (I think it was) mentioned that China and others must be laughing their arses off as the US repeatedly hits the self-destruct button.
China is doing the same now, they've started bringing in workers from Africa to manufacturing cities like Guangzhou to try and boost their shrinking workforce.
That's a silly idea that will only come back to haunt them. Those people (if they're allowed to stay) will only get old too. The constant emphasis on growth is a giant ponzi scheme that every country, including or especially China, will have to address at some point if it wants any kind of quality of life and doesn't want to devolve into a Malthusian nightmare.
On the other hand, if the plan is to either keep them there as permanent second class citizens or limit the amount of time each worker can spend in the country before being sent home, they'll eventually end up with a population of foreign youngsters who will create all sorts of social problems once they get sick of being the local whipping boys, not to mention various foreign concern trolls sticking their noses in.
What China should be doing is one of three things. It should be thinking of changing the definition of retirement, benefits, etc. so that old people can still contribute to society without thinking that they're going to sit on their arses and being looked after by younger generations. I know that in Japan there are legions of old people engaged in volunteer work such as recycling and other low level service sector jobs. That's actually more healthy for them in retirement anyway as it keeps them physically and socially active. Another angle China should be pursuing is mechanisation and generally putting in place infrastructure that is efficient for old people. Given that they're building their infrastructure now, they have the possibility of doing it right the first time, rather than trying to retrofit it as many nations that are already developed will have to do. The third thing, of course, is to transition from the world's maker of plastic shit into something requiring actual skills rather than just the ability to endure sixteen hour sweatshop shifts. Trying to cling desperately to what has worked for the past thirty years is a race to the bottom that they can't win. Having been able to take such work off other wealthier, more developed East Asian nations, they should realise that for exactly the same reasons, they can't stop poorer, less developed nations from doing the same to them in turn. Of course, this is all pie in the sky. China won't do any of this and will consequently be fucked, stalled in a middle income trap (if they're lucky) in a couple of decades.
To bring this back on track, low skilled, foreign immigration from radically different cultures is never going to work for any country, be it the US or China. Immigration, in so far as it exists, should have at least two basic conditions attached to it. The first is that it should be of net benefit to the per capita standard of living (not just GDP, but even with GDP there should be a per capita increase). There's no point bringing in people who are going to make things on average worse, whether that's economically, socially, environmentally or anything else. One of the things that annoys me more and more every time I go back to Australia (a place that does immigration far better than the US) to visit my family is what a huge rat race full of people crammed in like sardines it has become in its cities. I don't want high density urban planning and I don't want urban sprawl. How about liveable cities instead?
The second point is that it should be at a sufficiently low level that the people can be readily assimilated through natural processes, rather than changing the existing culture, be it through that culture making concessions to the immigrants or having to fight against them. The Japanese prime minister has it right in noticing that the mass immigration in much of the West over the past half century has been a colossal cluster fuck. He's sensible for being hesitant to see that as something worth embracing.
China does not work like that. No one can stay past their work permit or business visa stay time. You cannot grow old in China. The only exception is if you marry a Chinese person and get a Family visa. That's the only way to stay there forever. All of the African workers are guest workers on a very strict visa and entry regulation. They give them a full medical exam once they land in the airport. They are even restricted as to where in China they can go. When they are done with them, they send them out and bring new ones in.
When China wants to do something, there is no pussyfooting around. They do it. That is one of the advantages of Autonomy/Authoritarian political systems. Like Rudeboy said, no one can really compare China and Japan to the US, not in this regard at least.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
Election results be damned, Emperor Obama shall do as he pleases. You will bow before him.
If I had a business, and all of my customers voted with their money by shopping somewhere else (I.e. this last election), I'm pretty sure I would reevaluate my operations to remain in business.
This man truly is a Leninist ideologue tool. I can see it now. Santa Ana, CA will be up in celebratory riots about this once it passes. Fireworks and guns going off, street closures, barrio fiestas, etc. The Latino gang culture in so cal is bad now, this is only more fuel. Glad I'm not there anymore. Santa Ana used to be a safe, beautiful middle class city. The last 30 years or so it has been completely overtaken and is the most dangerous city in Orange County. Still has some nice neighborhoods, but for the most part it's a ghetto city. And if you're white, heaven help you if you venture out of the white neighborhoods. There's gang controlled streets that cops won't go into unless they have multiple patrol units with them. It really is sad what has happened to Santa Ana.
Dreams are like horses; they run wild on the earth. Catch one and ride it. Throw a leg over and ride it for all its worth.
Psalm 25:7 https://youtu.be/vHVoMCH10Wk
(This post was last modified: 11-20-2014 11:39 AM by Spectrumwalker.)
It needs to be noted that these Five Good Emperors spanning 100 years did not come to power through inheritance, but merit. Each emperor was adopted by the previous one after the previous emperor judged him to be a worthy successor; he wasn't not sired by him. Compare this to the rich existence of political dynasties (Bush, Kennedy, et.al.) in American politics already.
It needs to be noted that these Five Good Emperors spanning 100 years did not come to power through inheritance, but merit. Each emperor was adopted by the previous one after the previous emperor judged him to be a worthy successor; he wasn't not sired by him. Compare this to the rich existence of political dynasties (Bush, Kennedy, et.al.) in American politics already.
I am aware of the history of the Roman Emperors. However, when viewed in its full life span, the Roman civilization began its long decline not long after the Empire was proclaimed. After a little over 100 years. Considering our own rapid rise, it seems likely that our decline will be fast paced. The current President resembles a Caesar greater than past Presidents, but America as a nation is far closer to the Rome of the 300s or 400s A.D. than the Rome of 50 B.C.
Also, it is worth noting that the current president is no Caesar in terms of his love for the people and political skills, and he most certainly does not have the abilities of an Augustus.
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
Thomas Jefferson
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 10:01 AM)Constitution45 Wrote: Bringing in immigrants from the third world on the basis of dealing with declining birth rates and demographics is some wholly short term solution. There are so many incentives that can be put in place that would bring back traditional family structures and high birth rates within a couple of generation, that even a first year economics student could propose.
Then there is the question of sovereignty, how can a democratically elected government by the country's people, be so willingly allowed to change allegiances to gain votes from the citizens of another sovereign nation. Again its rational thought here that is completely missing. In essence the U.S has just declared itself as a international corporation rather than a nation state with an elected government.
What is the easy solution?
White women don't want kids until it is too late, they are brain washed to have their cake and eat it.
Immigrants no matter where they are from, buy products which puts dollars in the corporation pockets.
So much for minimum wages! If you follow the news a few billionaires were complaining about paying wages, now their dream has come true.
People get so deluded by the politics, but they need to see the big picture.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
Bringing in immigrants is helping to drop the birth rate.
More people on a limited amount if land means housing prices go up. More expensive housing means it is harder to start a family and people spend more time in their youth just working to support themselves, cant even think about taking time to raise a family and spend money on their kids.
If, i dunno, twelve million people were sent back to mexico, and about half a million were sent back to india, housing prices would drop, more poor people could find jobs which would suddenly have to pay a bit better, and American engineers etc. would be able to demand a higher salary.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 10:58 AM)Spectrumwalker Wrote: Election results be damned, Emperor Obama shall do as he pleases. You will bow before him.
Why does everyone think Obama cares about any of this. Like every president before him he does what he's told by our corporate overlords. We are Capitalist and capital knows best. Capital wants cheap labor, so we as happy little capitalist need to accept that and be happy.
11-20-2014 12:55 PM
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RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 12:55 PM)aSimpNamedBrokeback Wrote:
(11-20-2014 10:58 AM)Spectrumwalker Wrote: Election results be damned, Emperor Obama shall do as he pleases. You will bow before him.
Why does everyone think Obama cares about any of this. Like every president before him he does what he's told by our corporate overlords. We are Capitalist and capital knows best. Capital wants cheap labor, so we as happy little capitalist need to accept that and be happy.
It isn't about capitalism. If we were truly capitalist, then these low skill workers with bad language skills would find it hard to provide for themselves here and many would return on their own.
If the USA was truly a capitalist country, many of the problems we complain about here would resolve themselves.
This is crony capitalism, the result of democracy. Treating everyone equal, no matter how hard they work or how much they pay into the system. The politicians exploit this through crony capitalism.
It is a giant game of trying to find someone else to blame for all their problems and the bad guy often ends up being the middle class beta male because they have no voice.
11-20-2014 01:01 PM
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RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
^ Exactly how much easier would it be if we only had half the population to have a nice home in a nice neighborhood.
Here is a recent example my friend is a manager and makes roughly $85k I guess. He has been making decent wages for years. He is spendthrift and drives an old beat up car.
His parents had to help him lop $200k on a 3BR $600k condo.
Him doing this independently would be a pipe dream. If he wanted to 2 kids how cramped and expensive it would be is excessive. He is the right natural age to start thinking about kids. Not happening for at least 5-10 years and he is a complete beta settle down type. Since it's creepy to mac chicks 10-15 years younger his wife would be mid 30s when they have the money ready.
Another friend is 32 has to live in buttfuck nowheresville and commute an hour to support his wife and 2 kids. He made the natural choice to have kids in his late 20s but financially and logistically he fucked himself for doing a natural thing.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 01:01 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote: It isn't about capitalism. If we were truly capitalist, then these low skill workers with bad language skills would find it hard to provide for themselves here and many would return on their own.
If the USA was truly a capitalist country, many of the problems we complain about here would resolve themselves.
This is crony capitalism, the result of democracy. Treating everyone equal, no matter how hard they work or how much they pay into the system. The politicians exploit this through crony capitalism.
It is a giant game of trying to find someone else to blame for all their problems and the bad guy often ends up being the middle class beta male because they have no voice.
Capital doesn't care about any of that shit. Capital cares about capital, not democracy, cronyism or treating everyone equal.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
I thought Obama's move was legal, because the Immigration Act gave the executive agency Citizenship and Immigration Services the discretion for "suspension of deportation" or "cancellation of removal," but I looked at it briefly and there is a rule dating from 1997 that limits numbers admitted under these rules to 4000 a year, except for limited categories not applicable to Mexicans and other Latin Americans.
US immigration law is very very complicated, it is one of the most arcane specialties and I never practiced in it. so there might be some loophole Obama is relying on.
A few of my past girlfriends / mistresses were illegal Brazilians and Dominicans, so I followed along with their trials and tribulations getting legalized for years. The ones I kept up with eventually got legalized, but it took years and in one case trapping another guy into marriage (I kept fucking her). There is a large mass of people who are illegal but have been working for years.
I don't agree with Obama's policy, though. First, because wages have been depressed in the USA for years and this is a source of the malaise in the economy, because demand is low. Second, if they were to give an amnesty, it should be preceded with real border security. As much as I would dislike a Berlin Wall on the southern border, that is what it will take.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 01:12 PM)aSimpNamedBrokeback Wrote:
(11-20-2014 01:01 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote: It isn't about capitalism. If we were truly capitalist, then these low skill workers with bad language skills would find it hard to provide for themselves here and many would return on their own.
If the USA was truly a capitalist country, many of the problems we complain about here would resolve themselves.
This is crony capitalism, the result of democracy. Treating everyone equal, no matter how hard they work or how much they pay into the system. The politicians exploit this through crony capitalism.
It is a giant game of trying to find someone else to blame for all their problems and the bad guy often ends up being the middle class beta male because they have no voice.
Capital doesn't care about any of that shit. Capital cares about capital, not democracy, cronyism or treating everyone equal.
Capital cares about Capital. But if we didn't just let everyone vote and instead let informed people vote, then the politicians who vote for things like Obamacare that make the rich richer and the poor and middle class poorer, would get voted out of office.
What would you replace capitalism with? Socialism, the failed experiment? Dictatorship? Feudal days?
Capitalism is the best shot we have, the problem is people not holding elected officials accountable for their actions. This will hurt the people who voted for Obama far more than those who voted for Romney, yet they voted for it.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 12:33 PM)rudebwoy Wrote: White women don't want kids until it is too late, they are brain washed to have their cake and eat it.
You put your finger on it.
The problem is shitty women, not immigrants.
Money is not the real reason why women don't have enough kids - it's things like low future time orientation, poor spending habits, unconstrained hypergamy, delaying marriage, or not having relationship skills or offering value to a potential spouse.
Yes, it takes self-discipline to learn how to live frugally and within your means.
Even in the first world, you can still feed and clothe and educate kids on one income. You just have to want to.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 01:24 PM)WD-40 Wrote:
(11-20-2014 12:33 PM)rudebwoy Wrote: White women don't want kids until it is too late, they are brain washed to have their cake and eat it.
You put your finger on it.
The problem is shitty women, not immigrants.
Money is not the real reason why women don't have enough kids - it's things like low future time orientation, poor spending habits, unconstrained hypergamy, delaying marriage, or not having relationship skills or offering value to a potential spouse.
Yes, it takes self-discipline to learn how to live frugally and within your means.
Even in the first world, you can still feed and clothe and educate kids on one income. You just have to want to.
We've gone over this a hundred times.
Do you REALLY think you can hold women accountable, as an entire gender? You really think you can point your finger at every American with a vagina and say, "This is YOUR fault!"
This is social engineering. This is all intentional, and it comes from the top of the control scheme. You want to direct your anger and frustration at something, start there.
"...so I gave her an STD, and she STILL wanted to bang me."
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 02:41 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote: I have two thoughts on this.
The first is that the very people who will get completely screwed by this -- low wage workers of all colours, but especially blacks, and (white) tech workers -- will be those most fervently defending this. Why? Because the rank and file on the right oppose it. Everyone will line up tribally, and so the left will line up against their own interests just because. As Tuthmosis pointed out, it's a brilliant divide and conquer strategy.
The second thought is that I wonder who this benefits, besides the political and business interests within the US. Matt Forney (I think it was) mentioned that China and others must be laughing their arses off as the US repeatedly hits the self-destruct button. I'd also be very interested to see, over the next five to ten years, the US emigration numbers. My guess is that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Chile, Uruguay and maybe some others will be huge beneficiaries of all of this as the skilled/entrepreneurial middle class (whites) of the US engage in the ultimate (white) flight. Some of these countries (e.g. Chile) are actively trying to poach the cream of the US through incentive programmes for entrepreneurs. Likewise, I would not be surprised at all to see much of Silicon Valley decamp to Singapore within a generation. Of course, there will still be a Silicon Valley, but as it gets increasingly buddy-buddy with big government and attracts a lot of people looking for what they perceive to be a/the safe life in the US, it will become increasingly sclerotic and the real action and innovation will occur somewhere else.
Why would Silicon Valley leave the US? They are getting exactly what they want. More cheap foreign workers from India.
RE: Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
(11-20-2014 08:34 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:
(11-20-2014 02:41 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote: I have two thoughts on this.
The first is that the very people who will get completely screwed by this -- low wage workers of all colours, but especially blacks, and (white) tech workers -- will be those most fervently defending this. Why? Because the rank and file on the right oppose it. Everyone will line up tribally, and so the left will line up against their own interests just because. As Tuthmosis pointed out, it's a brilliant divide and conquer strategy.
The second thought is that I wonder who this benefits, besides the political and business interests within the US. Matt Forney (I think it was) mentioned that China and others must be laughing their arses off as the US repeatedly hits the self-destruct button. I'd also be very interested to see, over the next five to ten years, the US emigration numbers. My guess is that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Chile, Uruguay and maybe some others will be huge beneficiaries of all of this as the skilled/entrepreneurial middle class (whites) of the US engage in the ultimate (white) flight. Some of these countries (e.g. Chile) are actively trying to poach the cream of the US through incentive programmes for entrepreneurs. Likewise, I would not be surprised at all to see much of Silicon Valley decamp to Singapore within a generation. Of course, there will still be a Silicon Valley, but as it gets increasingly buddy-buddy with big government and attracts a lot of people looking for what they perceive to be a/the safe life in the US, it will become increasingly sclerotic and the real action and innovation will occur somewhere else.
Funny you say that.
I actually once tried to move to Singapore and do IT consulting from there instead of staying in the US. I ultimately decided to stay here and bring my wife here. I kinda of regret that now. Singapore does not have alot of space and it is still too expensive for most things. Since South China is just a short flight, I still might think about this option and live in China with my wife, or bounce back and forth. I dunno. I want to do something though. I think I have about 5-10 years before US living might get worst.
I wonder when the super rich are going to start building large walls to isolate themselves from the violent poor? Are they going to start having armed checkpoint guards at all the chokepoints? Detroit suburbs are somewhat like that now. This country is going to become one huge ghetto. I hope I am wrong, but it's hard to see any differences. Like Samseau said, others will see this and attempt the same thing. Soon the only border control will be where the millionaires and billionaires live.
Major nerd derail here but Final Fantasy VII was so far ahead of its time for this reason.
The portrayal of Midgar was fantastic; a dystopian city where the underclass lives literally underneath the city in a broad slum, where sun never shines and the poverty-stricken bicker and fight amongst each other just to get by. Separating the underground slum with the above world is an enormous plate separating the two worlds, and access to the above world is blocked off. The above world is home to the most powerful people on the planet, the Shinra Corporation (an energy company) and the city is governed as a police state.
Sound familiar?
"...so I gave her an STD, and she STILL wanted to bang me."
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Obama will push push Executive Order Action on Immigration, thoughts?
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