Post: #26

Great advice Vigo, +1 from me.

Wanted to add to the testimonial thing: If you can get a link to the person's website and a headshot. It makes it look more legitimate than having a paragraph with someone's name under it.

A question: I'm planning on becoming a full-time writing ASAP. Website and portfolio are in the works. Thinking long-term as a writer there's only 24 hrs in a day so there's a limit to how much I can earn(without raising rates). I want to farm out assignments to other writers without explicitly telling clients.

Have you every outsourced your projects? If no, why not? If yes, how did you find writers? How much did you skim off the fees? Were there every any problems?

Post: #27

(11-23-2014 05:15 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  Great advice Vigo, +1 from me.

Wanted to add to the testimonial thing: If you can get a link to the person's website and a headshot. It makes it look more legitimate than having a paragraph with someone's name under it.

A question: I'm planning on becoming a full-time writing ASAP. Website and portfolio are in the works. Thinking long-term as a writer there's only 24 hrs in a day so there's a limit to how much I can earn(without raising rates). I want to farm out assignments to other writers without explicitly telling clients.

Have you every outsourced your projects? If no, why not? If yes, how did you find writers? How much did you skim off the fees? Were there every any problems?

Thanks Goldin Boy, appreciate it, man. Good point about the testimonials--that's why so many people online now are using their real names and pics for their own stuff. It humanizes the product and the process, and provides greater social proof. Part of copywriting and branding is trying to come across as a trusted friend with the solution to a problem. The more you can connect with the prospect on a personal level, almost like you're sitting in a bar with them, the better. It's another game parallel in the copywriting world--shocking, I know...

As far as outsourcing goes, I haven't tried to outsource anything as of yet--for that same reason above, my copy is, for better or worse, connected to my "brand." After being in the Writer's Digest course, and just generally seeing the quality of work from some newbies out there, I figure it's more trouble to take them under my wing, edit their stuff (to the point of bordering on a re-write), get them up to speed to my standards, and (maybe most importantly) to trust them to do the legwork to get inside the prospect's head. Research is, in a lot of ways, more important than the copy itself, since it's so much easier to write effective copy once you're on the prospect's level, speaking their language, and in his mind. Honestly, right now, I don't think it's worth the trouble to instill this same work ethic among the "get rich quick" crowd--I'm more focused on continuing to improve my craft and increasing my rates until I'm among the "top earners" in the field.

Now, that's not to say that I'd never try it--once you can charge $10,000 a sales letter plus royalties, then it's much more worthwhile to take on cubs and teach them the ropes, especially if you can bank $4,000 of that repeatedly after a while. I'd get the added benefit of feeling better by helping more like-minded guys out, too--that's an important angle to me, but not at the expense of all of my free time--after all, that's a big part of the reason I got in the business in the first place. But if I was so inclined, I could just write my own course, put it up online, and achieve the same benefit (helping like-minded newbies) without all of the administrative headaches. I'm tooling around with that very idea, but it would take a few months to get it off the ground, and I'm still researching--we'll see if it makes sense.

Does that answer your question? Hope it does, man--let me know if I forgot anything or if it just brings up more questions.

@thirty-six: For sure--pop culture and consumerism rarely have anything to do with copywriting, at least from my frame. I think Carlton advocates keeping up-to-date on pop culture in his book so that you have more material to draw upon in your sales letters and build better rapport, but generally, it's not necessary unless you're targeting a really broad audience.

The most important things in copywriting are: 1) Know Your Prospect. Be able to connect with them, use their language, know what keeps them up at night, what kinds of problems they have, etc., and; 2) Solve One of Those "Keeps Them Up At Night Problems" They Have.

I'm not big on consumerism, either, but I square this away by focusing on the "helping people with problems" aspect of the whole process. Provided the products that you're working with aren't horrendous, know that there's a market for most products out there--your job is to connect with that market through your words, and (maybe) offer your client some ideas to connect with that market via driving traffic to your sales page. I feel a lot better about selling the above-mentioned fat fuck in Nebraska a solid "lose weight fast" product if there's good advice in there. If he doesn't have the willpower to use it properly...well...that's on him.

Hope this helps, guys. As always, let me know if you have any questions.

Vigo

Post: #28

Any insights/info on the market for White Papers?

Post: #29

you have to be more specific, niche down as much as possible e.g.
"white paper templates", "writing a white paper" or "bitcoin white paper"..

Then go after that market, and see what happens. For like $20 in Google AdWords, you can get the answer to your question

Post: #30

(11-25-2014 02:39 PM)thirty-six Wrote:  Any insights/info on the market for White Papers?

I've never written a white paper to date--I have had clients pitch them to me in meetings when looking to hire me, but (surprise, surprise), when they figure out how much effort goes into them and (more importantly how much they cost), they tend to back down on needing a white paper, even if it might help them accomplish their goals.

White papers are generally B2B (business-to-business) docs that are written at a pretty high level to convince another business to buy (or at least inquire about) a given product or service. This is often done through a combination of interviews and in-depth research, all tied together in a persuasive, well-written document of 4-10 pages or so. They have a fairly formal tone, but still manage to persuade the reader that "this thing will solve their problems" by demonstrating that the "thing" in question has helped similar people in similar circumstances. All a big, fancy production that amounts to fairly sophisticated testimonials and social proof.

A lot of the "old guard" claim that white papers are on the way out since people won't read them anymore. The problem is, they say the same thing about long-form sales copy, and solid, well-written sales letters still convert just as well as they ever have. Keep in mind that fewer copywriters specialize in white papers, but those that do get paid handsomely (mid-four figures and up) to do so.

So ultimately, specializing in white papers is the same as specializing in any other aspect of copywriting: Learn how to write white papers. Practice until you have a number of samples and are confident in your skills. Create a website with your samples and brand yourself as a white paper expert, preferably within a particular specialty, noting that you'll need to focus on industries that pitch to other businesses. Get your foot in the door however you can--even if it's writing a few product descriptions or a web page or two. Prove your talent that way, then pivot and somehow pitch them on what all white papers can do for their business.

Really, it's the same process you'll go through for any other kind of copywriting, but it will probably take a bit more patience--you'll have to sell the client on:

-What a white paper is
-How it can help their business
-Demonstrate/prove the value inherent in the white paper, probably by highlighting the value of leads on high-margin items
-Address any objections/concerns the client may have, preferably preemptively
-Sell the dream a bit
-Close the sale

It's tougher when you're talking about thousands of dollars right out of the gate, but that's why it's so important to trust your skills and have confidence more generally--these companies can smell desperation and amateurs more quickly than a 9 checking her smartphone at a club in Manhattan. You have to go beyond "projecting confidence," and actually embody it at EVERY stage of the pitch. THAT's why constantly improving your skills is so important in the world of copywriting--much like with game, always being willing to walk away from a project if YOU sense something is off, or the client will be a pain in the ass, gives off the same DGAF vibe that can get chicks going crazy.

Kind of a rambling reply, thirty-six--hope this answers your question, man.

-Vigo

Post: #31

Working Right now. I have ~10 or so copywriting books lines up (going to do one a week). Also copying one ad a day. Hitting up a few clients every day. We'll see what happens here soon enough.

Should be a good side hustle. Also lets me move into internet marketing down the line.

If anyone else is getting going PM me and maybe we can collaborate.

Post: #32

I've been getting more and more intrigued by freelance writing (including copywriting) as a possible secondary or even main source of income. I have a few questions hopefully Vigo or someone else could help answer:

1. Given the time needed for marketing to potential clients, researching, writing, and improving your craft, how hard would it be to make an extra 20-30k a year from copywriting as a side hustle, for someone with a full time job?

2. Is this a job where you need to build momentum fast, as far as getting clients and drumming up business go? Given my work situation, I'll mostly be working on copywriting on the weekends, and maybe an hour or two on weekdays, so I feel like I'll have to take on less work initially than someone who wasn't working full time. The flip side of this, is that I'll be able to work for free while building a portfolio as I have the regular job to earn money from.

Relevant Background Info if Needed:
I work full time at a bank, 8-4, Mondays to Fridays. Including the commute, on weekdays I'm out of the house from 6:30AM-5:30PM. On days I go to the gym, it's 6:30AM-7:00PM. This puts a big limit on how much I can do on weekdays. I'll make about 42k next year at my bank job, which isn't much, but I'm living at home right now with my parents (I'm 24) so I save a good deal.

I just bought the Copywriter's Handbook, The Well Fed Writer, as well as three more general books on writing well. On the more practical side I'm also doing to search online for good examples of copy and redo them while looking at why they work.

Eventually if possible, I'd like to get into a specific niche of writing. I'm probably going to be writing my CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst) Level 1 exam next year, and may end up doing all 3 levels, and I think that coupled with some relevant work experience could set me up for writing Annual Reports for companies, and similar work.

I appreciate any help!

Post: #33

@TrillClinton: I'll answer your first two questions at the same time, since they're pretty intertwined.

You definitely don't have to build up a lot of clients, buzz, etc. really quickly. Sure, you CAN if you have the means/persuasive ability/hookup in a given field, but like I said, it took me months to get my first client and get going. Honestly, that time period between when you put yourself out there and getting your first client, where you're doing pretty much anything to try to get clients (mailings, cold calling, going to networking events, emailing contacts in marketing, etc.) is the toughest period, for sure.

That said, given your schedule, it may just take a while to get the fundamentals down and build a decent spec portfolio, let alone start looking for clients. What you don't want to do is market to clients, B.S. your way into a gig before you're ready, totally bomb it, and develop a bad rep. That's why I invested so much time in reading, taking courses, the mentorship, portfolio development, etc. before I started marketing myself to clients.

That's why it's tough to answer your first question about just how long it'll take to make $20-30k as a side-hustle; given your schedule, it seems like you probably have maybe 15 hours a week (pushing it) to devote to copywriting. That includes marketing, etc. as you astutely noted.

Let's say that you start out selling sales letters for $500 a pop on Warrior Forum, and book one every other week. This might be optimistic at the start--it all depends on the quality of your copy. After you get about 5-6 under your belt, you may be able to increase your rates, but that leaves you at $2,000 for the first three months. If you're good, and start to double that rate every 5-6 letters until you reach $3000 or so per letter, that puts you at $4,000 for the second 3 months, $8,000 for the 3rd quarter, and $10,000 (capped at $3,000 per letter) for the last quarter.

So yeah, it's doable, but remember, that's a pretty rosy outlook at the start of a copywriting career. There'll be times where you'll be working feverishly at 5:00 am to finish up 3 letters on deadline, and other times where you'll have nothing to do for a month at a time. During the downswings in the early going, it's very tempting to decrease your rates just to bring in more cash.

Like in game, it all comes down to confidence. Are you confident enough in your abilities to hold the line when you increase your rates and have trouble getting clients at first? Are you confident enough to walk away from a bad deal when starting out?

Take all of these things into account before going into copywriting thinking it's a quick hustle to scare up $20-30 k. It really is a combination of science and art, and you have to have the passion for it and will to succeed to take you through the lean early stretch of your career.

@jake1720: Good attitude to have, man--just make sure that you have some portfolio samples before you go to some bigger clients. While you can do ad critiques for smaller businesses and pull in some business that way, the big boys are going to want you to have at least 5-6 spec pieces for reputable companies, AND they're going to want you to ask the right kinds of questions in your initial meeting about what the target audience is, their hot buttons, how the product solves their problems, etc. A lot of times, if you ask the right questions, clients are willing to overlook a portfolio full of spec work.

Vigo

Post: #34

@Thanks Vigo for the datasheet.

Seems like an excellent side hustle. I'm going to start now. Hoping to reach that 5k/letter within a few months or so.

It also enables me to move onto bigger projects later.

Post: #35

(12-02-2014 02:59 PM)Vigo_the_Carpathian Wrote:  @TrillClinton: I'll answer your first two questions at the same time, since they're pretty intertwined.

You definitely don't have to build up a lot of clients, buzz, etc. really quickly. Sure, you CAN if you have the means/persuasive ability/hookup in a given field, but like I said, it took me months to get my first client and get going. Honestly, that time period between when you put yourself out there and getting your first client, where you're doing pretty much anything to try to get clients (mailings, cold calling, going to networking events, emailing contacts in marketing, etc.) is the toughest period, for sure.

That said, given your schedule, it may just take a while to get the fundamentals down and build a decent spec portfolio, let alone start looking for clients. What you don't want to do is market to clients, B.S. your way into a gig before you're ready, totally bomb it, and develop a bad rep. That's why I invested so much time in reading, taking courses, the mentorship, portfolio development, etc. before I started marketing myself to clients.

That's why it's tough to answer your first question about just how long it'll take to make $20-30k as a side-hustle; given your schedule, it seems like you probably have maybe 15 hours a week (pushing it) to devote to copywriting. That includes marketing, etc. as you astutely noted.

Let's say that you start out selling sales letters for $500 a pop on Warrior Forum, and book one every other week. This might be optimistic at the start--it all depends on the quality of your copy. After you get about 5-6 under your belt, you may be able to increase your rates, but that leaves you at $2,000 for the first three months. If you're good, and start to double that rate every 5-6 letters until you reach $3000 or so per letter, that puts you at $4,000 for the second 3 months, $8,000 for the 3rd quarter, and $10,000 (capped at $3,000 per letter) for the last quarter.

So yeah, it's doable, but remember, that's a pretty rosy outlook at the start of a copywriting career. There'll be times where you'll be working feverishly at 5:00 am to finish up 3 letters on deadline, and other times where you'll have nothing to do for a month at a time. During the downswings in the early going, it's very tempting to decrease your rates just to bring in more cash.

Like in game, it all comes down to confidence. Are you confident enough in your abilities to hold the line when you increase your rates and have trouble getting clients at first? Are you confident enough to walk away from a bad deal when starting out?

Take all of these things into account before going into copywriting thinking it's a quick hustle to scare up $20-30 k. It really is a combination of science and art, and you have to have the passion for it and will to succeed to take you through the lean early stretch of your career.

@jake1720: Good attitude to have, man--just make sure that you have some portfolio samples before you go to some bigger clients. While you can do ad critiques for smaller businesses and pull in some business that way, the big boys are going to want you to have at least 5-6 spec pieces for reputable companies, AND they're going to want you to ask the right kinds of questions in your initial meeting about what the target audience is, their hot buttons, how the product solves their problems, etc. A lot of times, if you ask the right questions, clients are willing to overlook a portfolio full of spec work.

Vigo

Sorry about the late response.

You're right, I think the first few months I'll be just learning my craft and building a portfolio, and most likely won't make any money. That's okay with me, I can take my time given I have the main job to earn money.

I think given my situation, it would be more realistic for me to hope for this to turn into a good second stream of income by the mid-late 2016. That's kind of long term, but I think building a good reputation and focusing on quality first with any clients I get in 2015 will be more important than higher earnings in the short run.

Thanks so much for the long and insightful response, and again, really apologize the late reply here.

Post: #36

I'm copying a lot of ads and doing a lot of programs. Working on it 4-8 hours a day (Thank god for a part time semester and parents paying for college) and talking to a few connections regarding actual work.

I'm aiming to be in full swing by late spring 2015. Given I'm really hustling at this. We'll see how it goes.

Post: #37

This is actually a great profession. If you can crack the 5k sales letter you can essentially pull six figures working 40 hours a week from home.

Then if you get bored you can launch your own products.

Additionally, you can EASILY grab another copywriter and do a JV. They're extremely common. All in all great path to take.

Highly suggested for the person who wants to travel the world and still make $$$

Post: #38

Saw this thread over at Warrior Forum the other day, and thought it would really help some of you guys out:

LINK

As I've mentioned before, I'm getting into more JV, product-creation type stuff, and this guy, Chris Haddad, has some next-level shit in here--while some is old news for a guy like me, there's more than enough good new stuff in here to cause me to spend an afternoon to go through it and take detailed notes.

Remember: always be getting better so that you can keep upping your rate/royalty %...

Vigo

Post: #39

^

Good stuff Vigo. I was right about to post that link.

To guys who don't follow the copywriting and IM world, Chris started out as a copywriter and then started focusing on his own products. He parlayed his sales and marketing skills all the way up to appearing on the Rachel Ray show.

Just food for thought for how high you can go with this stuff.

And don't think it's impossible. People have been shattering limitations on this forum for years. We have tons of proof all around us.

Post: #40

+1 awesome data sheet vigo. Can you go into more detail with testing? Are you writing different pieces to target different audiences or are they subtle differences in keywords? How exactly do you test? On a sample size of people?

Thanks bro

Post: #41

(12-23-2014 01:43 AM)DumbfromBirth Wrote:  +1 awesome data sheet vigo. Can you go into more detail with testing? Are you writing different pieces to target different audiences or are they subtle differences in keywords? How exactly do you test? On a sample size of people?

Thanks bro

So generally, you don't want to test too many variables at once--just one thing at a time like a different headline or graphic--stuff like that. Ideally, you'd get access to the client's email list and segment it out to a small test audience (<10% of their total list), and then get the data on open rates, clickthrough rates, etc., and go from there. I'd say test no more that 3 different versions at a given time, and 2 head-to-head is probably better--they call it "A/B testing" for a reason. If you segment it out too far, you run into problems with too small of a sample size.

That said, not every client is going to be keen on giving you that kind of access. If that's the case, all you can do is tell them what you'd do if you had access to the list, and hope they follow your instructions. While I'd like to say that most clients are savvy enough to follow these instructions, that's not necessarily the case--client relations for freelancers could be its own thread.

Hope that answers your question--feel free to follow up if not.

Vigo

Post: #42

Vigo good stuff. I'm reading the sample versions of The Copywriter's Handbook and The Well Fed Writer.

My background which may be relevant to my question: I hated writing in HS/college, but I've been a reader (fiction and non) since high school, I enjoy writing here and love communicating, especially when my mind kicks into creative mode (not often bc my data analytics job ugh). Also, I'm personable to the point people guess me as a salesman and are shocked I have an accounting degree. The question I have, as I'm sure others have had who've read through these types of threads, is...

TWFW talks about raw talent and are you a good enough writer. This my concern. Am I good enough, raw talent-wise? I don't write much besides here, so what you see is mostly raw.

I realize no one can really know if I'm good enough, I'm just wondering what you (or others) think. I've always been better at talking than writing.

My goal would be to make enough to take extended vacations and live in other parts of the world while making money to get by.

Edit: I guess I have done some copywriting for an old job I did. I worked at a really small (me + owner) res construction company and we'd send out mailers and do ads which I helped write.

Post: #43

Got my first real client. Slowly but surely going to raise my rates. He knows what he's doing and what he wants too.

If anyone wants to swap war stories or tips to go further PM me and we can talk. Intersted in getting further with this... seems potentially lucrative.

Post: #44

@Vigo thanks for the datasheet. Really appreciate it.

Post: #45

Great thread Vigo.

What would you say is the #1 talent/trait, that makes a successful copywriter (either that comes naturally, or can be developed)?

Like, for example, I've heard programmers say "problem solving" is the core talent in that field.

Post: #46

Well, I just started on eLance... I'm applying to 3 jobs a day + any invitations. One guys seems very interested in me writing articles for his website. However, he asked for me to first rewrite his bio as a sample and didn't like my rewrite, so now I'm revising it again. I have a feeling that my lack of knowledge of the field and lack of any skill besides my innately gifted ones in writing will crush me.

Post: #47

(02-17-2015 09:29 AM)Krusyos Wrote:  Well, I just started on eLance... I'm applying to 3 jobs a day + any invitations. One guys seems very interested in me writing articles for his website. However, he asked for me to first rewrite his bio as a sample and didn't like my rewrite, so now I'm revising it again. I have a feeling that my lack of knowledge of the field and lack of any skill besides my innately gifted ones in writing will crush me.

Are you writing this bio for free? Guys will try to get work done on spec, lowball you on price all the time but you shouldn't do it.

There are thousands of companies that need writers on e-lance and most of the writers aren't specialist(but it can help) so you'll have to research your butt off.

Check out the advice in this huge thread on e-lance: /thread-26887.html

Post: #48

(02-17-2015 09:52 AM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

(02-17-2015 09:29 AM)Krusyos Wrote:  Well, I just started on eLance... I'm applying to 3 jobs a day + any invitations. One guys seems very interested in me writing articles for his website. However, he asked for me to first rewrite his bio as a sample and didn't like my rewrite, so now I'm revising it again. I have a feeling that my lack of knowledge of the field and lack of any skill besides my innately gifted ones in writing will crush me.

Are you writing this bio for free? Guys will try to get work done on spec, lowball you on price all the time but you shouldn't do it.

There are thousands of companies that need writers on e-lance and most of the writers aren't specialist(but it can help) so you'll have to research your butt off.

Check out the advice in this huge thread on e-lance: /thread-26887.html

Yeah, if he wants another revision I'm gonna tell him to cough up some cash first.

Post: #49

Any easy way to start is to look for buyers open to new writers. There are a bunch that state it specifically because they are looking for cheap work, so you will have to work for basically no pay.

My first elance gig was $2 per article for 10 articles at 1,000 words a piece. That job sucked. I was so relieved when I finished it, but the feedback I got was worth it.

Two weeks later I am writing an article for $100, 450-750 words.

One thing I learned is not to waste time working for asshole clients. I would tell him to fuck off politely. He sounds like he is going to be hard to please.

Post: #50

The page on the Gary Halbert Letter is no longer showing up(At least for me).

Here is a link I found to Gary Halbert's favorite ads.

http://theryanmcgrath.com/2010/04/gary-h...orite-ads/

Thanks again to Vigo for the datashheet.