Post: #26

Hey man, thanks to your post I started to look into this SEO stuff, and I just made my first 20$! The article took me like 6 hours, but I´m super proud, lol.

I have a full time job, so this is only for fun, but its oddly satisfying to "pull money out of my laptop" if you will.

I am a German cook and I plan to specialize on food writings (obviously). Let me know if I can do anything for you.

Take care.

Post: #27

(11-03-2014 09:17 AM)CJ_W Wrote:  I'm looking into this and I have a question about it.

What do I need to learn to actually do this well? I'm talking more about the SEO/copywriting thing as I don't code/graphic design etc. . .I'm applying for the Elance jobs but I don't really know what I'm doing. Did you just do the same and learn it as you go? Or was there a resource that helped you learn about what you were applying for? i.e. learn how to write SEO/content writing/copywriting

for SEO writing you dont need to know anything

maybe read up some basics on SEO but thats about it

same for content writing you just need to provide some info about the topic your client needs... you dont need to be hemingway to do this

copywriting is different though, you need to know what youre doing here. if youre interested I suggest you do what the great Gary Halbert (best copywriter of all time) talks about here:

http://www.thegaryhalbertletter.com/News...rience.htm

micha Wrote:Hey man, thanks to your post I started to look into this SEO stuff, and I just made my first 20$! The article took me like 6 hours, but I´m super proud, lol.

I have a full time job, so this is only for fun, but its oddly satisfying to "pull money out of my laptop" if you will.

I am a German cook and I plan to specialize on food writings (obviously). Let me know if I can do anything for you.

Take care.

thats awesome man! I love it when people take action and get results

Post: #28

(10-29-2014 10:57 PM)Afarang Wrote:  The freelance writing market is totally saturated currently, but if you are an amazing writer you will find work. If you cannot write or are not that great, don't expect to make what the OP is making as I assume he writes pretty well. Many mediocre writers should only expect about $10/hr or so.

I think if some people spent 6-12 months learning code they can get some decent jobs using these sites. Freelancing writing has too many freelancers and too many shitty clients.

This is not to take nothing away from the OP, it's a very useful guide.

I have to disagree with you here - I've been doing this as my main income stream for years and have helped quite a few others get their start. The writing markets are far from saturated. That may true on the lowest end, but only there.

It doesn't take rockstar writing skills to get paid well either. I guess it depends on how you define mediocre, but generally anyone who writes well at the high school or college level can make a very good living at this.

I've seen guys jump into this business with okay writing skills and zero experience to make a full-time income within a month. I've seen guys like Woot pretty quickly achieve milestones like $100/hour.

Compared to investing 6 - 12 months to learn code before even getting started, the choice of which way to go is really a no-brainer.

(11-04-2014 04:35 PM)micha Wrote:  Hey man, thanks to your post I started to look into this SEO stuff, and I just made my first 20$! The article took me like 6 hours, but I´m super proud, lol.

I have a full time job, so this is only for fun, but its oddly satisfying to "pull money out of my laptop" if you will.

I am a German cook and I plan to specialize on food writings (obviously). Let me know if I can do anything for you.

Take care.

No offense and good on you for taking action, but you should really value your time more - that's about $3.33 an hour. Even worse, if you're a decent writer, you're dragging down the market rates by working so cheap.

If you want to get some experience under your belt by working that cheap, just do it for free and go work pro bono for some nonprofits or for business owners you know personally. Or spend a bit of extra time marketing yourself and land some better jobs. You could also better use that time creating a portfolio by writing examples for an dream imaginary client to practice online writing and prepare for future marketing.

Working that cheap doesn't do you or anyone else any favors. It creates bogus expectations among the market, it encourages bad writing habits, and it can quickly burn you out on the business before you even get started.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #29

(11-05-2014 12:21 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(10-29-2014 10:57 PM)Afarang Wrote:  The freelance writing market is totally saturated currently, but if you are an amazing writer you will find work. If you cannot write or are not that great, don't expect to make what the OP is making as I assume he writes pretty well. Many mediocre writers should only expect about $10/hr or so.

I think if some people spent 6-12 months learning code they can get some decent jobs using these sites. Freelancing writing has too many freelancers and too many shitty clients.

This is not to take nothing away from the OP, it's a very useful guide.

I have to disagree with you here - I've been doing this as my main income stream for years and have helped quite a few others get their start. The writing markets are far from saturated. That may true on the lowest end, but only there.

It doesn't take rockstar writing skills to get paid well either. I guess it depends on how you define mediocre, but generally anyone who writes well at the high school or college level can make a very good living at this.

I've seen guys jump into this business with okay writing skills and zero experience to make a full-time income within a month. I've seen guys like Woot pretty quickly achieve milestones like $100/hour.

Compared to investing 6 - 12 months to learn code before even getting started, the choice of which way to go is really a no-brainer.

(11-04-2014 04:35 PM)micha Wrote:  Hey man, thanks to your post I started to look into this SEO stuff, and I just made my first 20$! The article took me like 6 hours, but I´m super proud, lol.

I have a full time job, so this is only for fun, but its oddly satisfying to "pull money out of my laptop" if you will.

I am a German cook and I plan to specialize on food writings (obviously). Let me know if I can do anything for you.

Take care.

No offense and good on you for taking action, but you should really value your time more - that's about $3.33 an hour. Even worse, if you're a decent writer, you're dragging down the market rates by working so cheap.

If you want to get some experience under your belt by working that cheap, just do it for free and go work pro bono for some nonprofits or for business owners you know personally. Or spend a bit of extra time marketing yourself and land some better jobs. You could also better use that time creating a portfolio by writing examples for an dream imaginary client to practice online writing and prepare for future marketing.

Working that cheap doesn't do you or anyone else any favors. It creates bogus expectations among the market, it encourages bad writing habits, and it can quickly burn you out on the business before you even get started.

Yeah, I have been thinking about it since, but it was a fixed ct/word offer, and I still needed to present a good article once I took the project.

I have not taken on projects since.

I like your idea of writing a couple of exposées instead of whoring myself out.


Then again, I got the offer from a German content site (content.de) and I am rated 4 Stars currently (that is 1,8 ct/word) .

Then there is 4+, 4++ and 5.

5 Stars get 6ct/word

(These numbers are in $ for you guys)


I made some silly mistakes when they rated me. I think I could get to 5 stars fairly quickly (half a year maybe), but that would mean working a lot to make clients happy.

Is it worth it? What do you think?



Different question altogether:

Do you guys have an idea where I could try to prove myself writing in English?

At content.de I had to write a 200 word piece exclusively for them to rate my skills.
I would love to know where I stand with my English and whether or not it might be possible to break into that market at some point.


Tell me what you think. I can take harsh truths.


Regards

Michael

Post: #30

Aaand there is a silly spelling mistake on the first page I read of the greatest copywriter of all time...

Quote:(...) in advertising, it borders impossible. You see, most books written abut advertising are not just bad(...)

Did you really do what he says in this article?

Should I still read all of this stuff even if I write in German (I suppose the answer is yes, but still,... I am asking)

How seriously would you take the advice of not reading anything other than what is on that list? I guess I would be beneficial to me to read a couple of things in German to get a feel for German advertisement language, no?


Sorry for all the questions but I am pretty excited about this. It is way perfect for me. I have decent skills in German and I did not know this market existed.

Post: #31

(10-26-2014 06:03 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 05:53 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  It's like 330 out of 365, and it only means your first 90k is tax free. Check with your tax professional, cause there are better rays to lower your tax burden than country hopping.

Unless the income is sourced within the country, I never worried about local taxes (outside of the US).

Maybe w00t has different experiences with that.

@Fisto

What WIA said but I believe you can pro-rate the exclusion if you were out of the country part of one year and then stayed out for those 330 days going into the next year.

What WIA said is true with regard to taxes. But if you're not an employee during the foreign earned income, but are self-employed or an independent consultant, you still have to pay the self-employment (FICA) tax, which ranges from about 15%.

I found this out in the last 2 years - when I was employee of a company, I got the full exclusion, when I was doing independent fee-for-service, I had to pay the self-employment tax.

So if you're doing this, you still have to pay the self-employment tax even if you're making much less than the $95,000 or so.

Post: #32

What about pursuing multiple things like video editing, photo editing/retouching and seo/content writing all at the same time? Is it smarter to create separate profiles or do them all from one and list all your skills and abilities on that one profile?

Also, how do you collect payment, PayPal?

Is asking $20 an hour a good starting place or should you ask for more?

Post: #33

I don't know why I avoided freelancing so long, but this thread pushed me to start.

I got my first gig yesterday. $5 (I kept $4.50) to write a 500+ word on an "unusual sexual experience". I spent 10-15 minutes writing about how my ex-gf shoved a finger up my ass. Easy and got a few laughs out of it. Now it's just consistently finding jobs like this and working my way up.

That project was for oDesk, and that seems like the best site out there for freelancing. I feel that I need to check out other sites more like eLance and Guru because oDesk limits the amount of applications you can send out.

Post: #34

I am interesting in writing some things.
Even though my English is not perfect, I know that I can write fairly well about a wide range of topics and, I suppose the more you write, the better you get at it.

You find these writing "opportunities" in the sites OP mentioned(odesk.com, elance.com, guru.com, freelancer.com) or are there others?
I'd like to produce some content before going for my own blog/website, just to test the waters.

Besides a laptop, brain and an account what do you need to start?
-I suppose paypal or something similar to get paid.
-Anything else?

Post: #35

(11-11-2014 01:05 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  I am interesting in writing some things.
Even though my English is not perfect, I know that I can write fairly well about a wide range of topics and, I suppose the more you write, the better you get at it.

You find these writing "opportunities" in the sites OP mentioned(odesk.com, elance.com, guru.com, freelancer.com) or are there others?
I'd like to produce some content before going for my own blog/website, just to test the waters.

Besides a laptop, brain and an account what do you need to start?
-I suppose paypal or something similar to get paid.
-Anything else?

You German?

Try content.de or textbroker.de

I'm on content.de and I'm planning on going over to textbroker, too. You send them a text you wrote (200 words on some stuff of your choosing) and then they will rate you. Highest ratings can get you 4ct/word (that is EUR, so I think its decent)

Make sure the text is IMPECCABLE. I'm an idiot and I had a mistake in it, so I'm starting at 1.4ct/word until I have written more to get better ratings.

You can also apply to direct orders, where you can choose wordprices yourself.

It can be tedious to wait until good offers come along, and in the beginning payment is shit. HOWEVER:

- I get noticeably quicker with every text. I type at 100wp/m anyway, but streamlining thoughts will make the big difference.

- Its fun & challenging (don't tell me I could be making more at McD or whatever. Not gonna happen)

- Its an investment (you invest in a skill of yours)

- I've been talking about it to friends and I might be getting serious work via this channel



So while I respect BB and I partially heed his advice (I do pro bono work as well for a portfolio) I don't see a way to get a lot of work in the beginning without whoring yourself out.


edit: use duden.de for corrections. Their engine is pretty sophisticated.

and content.de wires money directly to your bankaccount if you want to. I use paypal though because of taxes (I pay for Russian lessons via Paypal, so that money will never be seen by anyone)

Post: #36

I'm a tax CPA and can verify (for all you lazyasses):

1. Full exclusion is 330 out of 365 but you need to make sure you don't flunk other tests. Check IRS tax form 2555 for more instructions.

2. Income earned as an independant consultant would be subject to self employment. Self employment tax sucks. Many high net worth individuals use an S-Corp as a workaround, I would not advise unless there is a lot of money involved.

3. The United States does tax worldwide income. Some countries have tax treaties for dividends/interest. As a poster said somewhere earlier, you can structure your business in various ways but it costs money to set up and maintain yearly.

My $0.02: Renouncing American citizenship has serious consequences. An American passport is a powerful thing.

Post: #37

(11-05-2014 05:46 AM)micha Wrote:  Aaand there is a silly spelling mistake on the first page I read of the greatest copywriter of all time...

Quote:(...) in advertising, it borders impossible. You see, most books written abut advertising are not just bad(...)

Did you really do what he says in this article?

Should I still read all of this stuff even if I write in German (I suppose the answer is yes, but still,... I am asking)

How seriously would you take the advice of not reading anything other than what is on that list? I guess I would be beneficial to me to read a couple of things in German to get a feel for German advertisement language, no?


Sorry for all the questions but I am pretty excited about this. It is way perfect for me. I have decent skills in German and I did not know this market existed.

of course
you will find many spelling mistakes and bad grammar in some of the top sales letters but they still brought in millions

Quote:What about pursuing multiple things like video editing, photo editing/retouching and seo/content writing all at the same time? Is it smarter to create separate profiles or do them all from one and list all your skills and abilities on that one profile?

Also, how do you collect payment, PayPal?

Is asking $20 an hour a good starting place or should you ask for more?

yes definitely, you dont wanna be seen as a jack of all trades
when I was still offering translations I was running two several portfolio sites, one for translations and one for writing

on the freelance sites you can just get the money through paypal, no questions asked.
right now my clients pay directly into my bank account in my home country. that might become a problem in the longer run though so Im looking into offshore incorporating atm.

Quote:So while I respect BB and I partially heed his advice (I do pro bono work as well for a portfolio) I don't see a way to get a lot of work in the beginning without whoring yourself out.

I think doing pro-bono work is a good strategy but personally I have no experience with it. I whored myself out in the beginning and its a legit strategy, just see that you get out of the whoring phase ASAP. Sites like content.de textbroker and all the US freelancing sites are all shit but you can use them to get a foot in the door (and there are always some diamonds in the rough). ultimately you wanna be dealing with clients directly and get off those sites.

Post: #38

Got my first direct order this morning (3ct/word EUR). Aaaand the article is about Sex and Dating.

I love this job.

+1 rep for you w00t. I owe you for this thread.

Post: #39

(11-11-2014 01:40 PM)micha Wrote:  So while I respect BB and I partially heed his advice (I do pro bono work as well for a portfolio) I don't see a way to get a lot of work in the beginning without whoring yourself out.

I appreciate the respect, but I'm here to rag on you some more. What do you need a lot of work in the beginning for?

There are two ways to approach the business. You can do a lot of work and charge a little, or you can do a little work and charge a lot.

Imagine, for instance, that you had a full schedule and doubled your rates (a good idea when your schedule fills up, actually). Imagine doing so causes half of your client list to move on.

You just cut your workload in half and are pulling in the same income. And probably working with clients that don't waste your time. Not too shabby.

It's not the same scenario, of course, but I think you get the point.

Focus on building a presence online and creating marketing streams besides just bidding on elance (blogging, guest blogging, warm emailing, etc) instead of whoring yourself out and land better jobs from the get-go. The ball will roll slower at first, but it will have a lot more momentum when it gets going, and you'll maintain your integrity as a writer.

Not to mention that doing cheap work can damage your reputation (and your skills) in the long run. As woot says, if you do cheap work, get in and then get right out. Raise your rates as soon as you get two good testimonials, and don't write more than one or two articles for those first jobs.

I messed around on textbroker for a short time to fill in hours - a long time ago. I popped right into the highest paid ratings, but the higher you go the less work there is, and I ditched the site as soon as I go there. A lot of the work is really tedious stuff too. I opened an account again a couple years later to see if the site had changed or I'd missed something - same ole' shit.

I suppose it could be a good way to get some practice and build some confidence, though. Or to generate some change if you're hard up on cash. But your efforts would be used better elsewhere.

I've been doing this over six years now, maybe seven, and I've seen people get their start and give up on the business (the cheap writers especially burn out). I've seen others go on to turn it into a full-time career. My best advice is that unless you absolutely need the cash right now to put food on your table, the way to do this is to put more energy into building a legitimate, long-term business and growing it the right way rather than worrying about filling your pipeline as fast as possible.

The best thing a freelance writer can do for himself is learn marketing. That's where all the difference lies between a writer who gets $10 per article and a writer who gets $100 - $500 per article. Or even the mid-range rates in between.

Never whore yourself out. The biggest, most common mistake in this industry is competing on price, and it's very easy to get stuck there once you fall into that trap.

EDIT: $0.03 a word is at least getting somewhere, so you're on the right track. Just keep raising those rates (ASAP), especially when you start struggling to keep up with jobs - that means time to radically change your rates. Believe it or not, the only thing standing between you and a higher rate at this level is a lack of understanding or confidence in the worth of what you're producing. Written content has great value in this world. Far more value than these rates - I assure you.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #40

Okay BB, you convinced me. I think I've seen the light.

I have a full-time (well paid) job, so I guess there is absolutely nothing to lose. I have my foot in the door with potential clients outside of content.de already, so I will re-focus.

I know what to do. Thank you.


edit: Also today I realized content.de takes a 25 - 30% cut - that's insane. I get 2.9ct the dude pays 3.9ct

Post: #41

(11-12-2014 06:27 AM)micha Wrote:  Okay BB, you convinced me. I think I've seen the light.

I have a full-time (well paid) job, so I guess there is absolutely nothing to lose. I have my foot in the door with potential clients outside of content.de already, so I will re-focus.

I know what to do. Thank you.


edit: Also today I realized content.de takes a 25 - 30% cut - that's insane. I get 2.9ct the dude pays 3.9ct

Right on. If you have a full-time job, than you're definitely in the position to go the quality route from the get-go. What is your current employment, if you don't mind? Industries you have knowledge and experience in are a great place to get your start. Side Note: the experience is even more important than the knowledge coming out of the gate - even a little experience can become a selling point, while knowledge is something you can get with research.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #42

I'm a cook and in a couple of years I'll be calling myself a chef. 5* Hotels and Michelin-Star Kitchens only. I've had great education, so there is a broad spectrum of knowledge and interests. Strong points are languages, food & nutrition and fitness. But I don't have a degree or some white-collar topic that I could specialize on. (Though I think writing about food and kitchen related stuff has great potential)

I had written comedy before I came along this thread, and personally I think I'm hilarious. But there is a little something missing to make it big with a book or a show.

Post: #43

It's been said before and I'll say it again:

The tax issues involved in location independent income are quite complex, even for non-US persons. There are many countries that tax worldwide income and the 180-day rule may not always be sufficient to escape that. For example, there are cases where a country can be considered your tax home even if you weren't physically present there at all.

When it comes to taxes, you have to get professional advice and know exactly what you are doing, lest you be bitten by tax audits and years worth of back taxes, fines and possibly jail time.

Post: #44

(11-12-2014 11:16 AM)WD-40 Wrote:  When it comes to taxes, you have to get professional advice and know exactly what you are doing, lest you be bitten by tax audits and years worth of back taxes, fines and possibly jail time.

Or just moving permanently to SEA

Post: #45

Guys - those of you with writing skills - I may be in need of someone to lend a hand on some projects. See my post here for details: /thread-26887-...#pid879462

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling