Post: #1

So says a new study.

So, put down the bon bons, get away from Jezebel and get out there & exercise, fatties of the world!

Post: #2

I know this one girl from high school.
She is about 5'6", about 210 pounds real easy.
No job, plays pokemon all day, every time I have seen her she has a big gulp.
At this social gathering, she is talking about depression, how she is clinically depressed, how it 'just happens to people', and 'they don't know what causes it'. Wont take any steps to change anything unless its a pill.
I wonder if she started exercising, eating good, became useful in some kind of way, spent some time in the sun and in nature, and had a hobby thats not pokemon if her "depression" would alleviate.
If you mention this, you will be engulfed by the squawking of "YOU DONT UNDERSTAND DEPRESSION"
Some people will not listen to a single thing that requires effort

Post: #3

I thought everyone knew this. I'm sure everyone here does at least. I lift weights for the mental benefits as much as the physical. It's good to see a study which starts to reveal some of the biomechanics behind it

I have a female friend I've known since preschool. She is a different person when she hits the gym. Sadly she's in a dead end job (despite being a rich girl, WTF?) which 'makes her tired'. So she goes home and watches TV, then falls asleep at 5PM. Worst thing you can do. She's killing herself, and starting to get fat, but I'm getting mighty tired of spending half an hour trying to get her to head down the gym with us.

Shit, I'm gonna spike her drink with Modafinil. There's a plan.

Post: #4

Yeah this is already well known.
A lot of the argumentative effort a fattie expends is just 'self-sustainance'. If they reacted to the unpleasantness of their fatness or unhealthyness (mental or physical), with self-blame and genuine action-taking, they wouldn't be fat. They are locked into self-sustaining personal shitness.

Post: #5

It is well known but a lot of people refuse to believe that it may actually work. It is easier to be overweight, depressed, etc and say "woe is me" than to lift some weights.

Post: #6

For me, 2013 (slightly depressed, bang draughts) vs 2014 (not at all depressed)...was directly related to working out and exercise (sports...I hate running).

Everyone knows this because we've all done something active and felt better afterward...but you have to experience it to really get it.

Post: #7

I think there's almost always deeper psychological issues behind people who are obese or even overweight. With a few exceptions everybody knows what they have to do - yet they don't do it. I don't think you can explain just by laziness. Food is the vice of our time and it's how people are expressing their inner turmoil. That's certainly been my personal experience with weight gain and loss. When I'm right with myself I shed weight quickly without even really trying that hard (obviously I have to make a conscious effort to eat properly and exercise but those things come easy when I'm in a good space). On the other hand when I've gotten stuck in some dark place it seems like the hardest thing in the world not to sit on the couch with a box of oreos. A hundred years ago it probably would have been a bottle of tonic with opium in it. Exercise does a lot to keep your head straight. While it's kind of a no-duh finding I think it's useful in that it adds to the body of evidence that our current obesity epidemic is a mental health issue and not something that should be dealt with convincing people that fat is beautiful.

Post: #8

It's literally impossible to be unhappy or depressed with life in general if you maintain an exercise routine, especially with some sports thrown in.

Post: #9

I preach this to people all the time. Exercise pumps up the endorphins in the short run no doubt, but being fit/looking good over the long run is what leads to elevated moods.

It's a virtuous cycle. You lift, you look good, you feel good, you lift some more. Rinse and repeat.

My problem is that after a lifetime of being active it's reached an extreme. I was recently sidelined a few months with an injury, and I was depressed as all hell watching my muscle slip away and fat increase, even though logically I knew I was still in better shape than 95% of the population. I'm afraid that exercise is almost too important to me now, if that makes any sense

Post: #10

Post: #11

(10-13-2014 12:25 PM)Seamus Wrote:  I preach this to people all the time. Exercise pumps up the endorphins in the short run no doubt, but being fit/looking good over the long run is what leads to elevated moods.

It's a virtuous cycle. You lift, you look good, you feel good, you lift some more. Rinse and repeat.

My problem is that after a lifetime of being active it's reached an extreme. I was recently sidelined a few months with an injury, and I was depressed as all hell watching my muscle slip away and fat increase, even though logically I knew I was still in better shape than 95% of the population. I'm afraid that exercise is almost too important to me now, if that makes any sense

Couldn't agree more. I can't remember the last time I've gone more than three days without lifting, and it's been about 5 years since it all began.

Of course, I didn't figure out how important it is to work lower body so it was about two years before my noob-ass did a squat or 'dl.

If I were to imagine something happening now to restrict lifting for an extended period of time, I'd imagine there's a good chance of depression as a result. Weight lifting is really one of the best lifestyle changes a man can make with regard to personal improvement, as it naturally guides you towards doing other things for self-improvement, and you end up on a massive hurling snowball of golden achievement that will not be stopped.

Post: #12

Anytime I find myself going a few days without lifting hard, I get in a funk. I realize that this is just "normal" for most people. I love lifting because that feeling of power and strength. That's normal to me, and it's impossible to be depressed when you're pushing your body to its limits. The mind/body connection is strong - when the body is pushed to that limit, might as well be in survival mode. Which in reality is every minute you are alive.

Lifting keeps shit real. Depression can only thrive when you take survival for granted.

Post: #13

(10-09-2014 06:56 PM)Jack198 Wrote:  So says a new study.

So, put down the bon bons, get away from Jezebel and get out there & exercise, fatties of the world!

Well this could be true. But I personally experience Yoga is far good than exercise to get rid from depression.

Post: #14

(10-09-2014 08:26 PM)Dhorv9 Wrote:  I know this one girl from high school.
She is about 5'6", about 210 pounds real easy.
No job, plays pokemon all day, every time I have seen her she has a big gulp.
At this social gathering, she is talking about depression, how she is clinically depressed, how it 'just happens to people', and 'they don't know what causes it'. Wont take any steps to change anything unless its a pill.
I wonder if she started exercising, eating good, became useful in some kind of way, spent some time in the sun and in nature, and had a hobby thats not pokemon if her "depression" would alleviate.
If you mention this, you will be engulfed by the squawking of "YOU DONT UNDERSTAND DEPRESSION"
Some people will not listen to a single thing that requires effort

So accurate. Fat people literally look at treadmills like

Post: #15

I agree with the OP's original premise.

I've found most of the benefits from strength training to be different than what one might think (getting "huge" or something like that).

It makes you mentally stronger because you must face down fear, anxiety, and negative thoughts every time you get under that heavy barbell.

It adds discipline to your life when you make a habit of training even if you don't feel like it.

It gets you "out of your head" and into and in touch with your body, for those of us prone to that problem.

After a heavy workout, I get a deep sense of relaxation and calmness. Basically, you see overall stress reduction by exposing yourself to very high but temporary levels of stress.

There is a psychological aspect to being out of shape. I credit meditation and mindfulness with making it possible for me to get into the gym. There were many negative and self-loathing thought patterns I had to confront to make that big step. Otherwise the tendency is for self-sabotage.

Post: #16

I've known this for years. I'm prone to depression but if I lift three times a week everything is good.

Post: #17

Yeah I had heard this. I always feel more upbeat after a nice run or lifting, despite the energy used.

The tough part is finding motivation when you're seriously depressed. Most people would rather take antidepressants as an easier cure.

Post: #18

My cousin is clinically depressed, borderline suicidal.

He had a fake case of asthma to allow him to get out of PE in high school.
He has never lifted weights or played any sport.
He does nothing outdoors except walk from his front door to his car.
He eats fast food for a large percentage of his meals.
If it isn't fast food he eats microwave pizzas, pizza pockets, chicken nuggets, and soda for the remained of his meals.
He sits inside at a desk all day for work, and all night and weekend at home playing computer games.
He's nearly 30 and has had sex with 3 girls in his whole life.
He is off and on all kinds of different medications that the doctors give him.
Has made no lifestyle changes at all.

It's amazing that no one can figure out why he is depressed.

Post: #19

(10-13-2014 12:29 PM)The PerSev Wrote:  

Jack Lalanne makes my list for top ten Americans of the last century. He is the boss.

Post: #20

Anti depressants are a massive scam.
Even in the rigged studies that Big Pharm puts out, they show no advantage over placebo, except in the cases of the most severely depressed patients.
I strongly suspect that even this modest advantage over placebo in a small subset of cases is due to the fact that anti depressants have rather noticeable side affects, so the studies aren't really blind. You would have to give patients a sugar pill that mimicked the side affect profile of the anti depressant being tested in order to have a truly blind and scientific study. This is vitally important, because the results of an anti depressant test are based on the Hamilton scale for depression, which is a subjective self reporting of a patient's mood combined with some very subjective non scientific physical observations by a psychiatrist. So if the patients realize they are being tested with the anti depressant, wishful thinking will color their self reporting and destroy the validity of the study.
Exercise, on the other hand, has a 100% effective anti depressant effect in both humans and animals. Take a depressed person, force them to exercise 30 mins a day for two weeks, and I guarantee the results will trump any medication available.
As for animals...I've spent time around horses...you keep em locked up in their stalls too much and they will bite things and become ornery. Same goes with people.
Also, exercise will maintain and improve your mental acuity and delay or prevent the onset of dementia. Anti depressants are good at making people half retarded and increasing their risk of dementia. I can't say enough bad things about anti depressants.

Post: #21

he says as much here.

also sunlight (or if you live in a winter hellhole, a lightbox for 20mins/day?).

the third thing: Omega 3's, I think (it's been a while since I watched it).

He also wrote a book on the topic.

Post: #22

That's interesting. I don't pretend to have the background to evaluate the study decisively one way or the other. But there's other studies that provide a different picture, in humans at least.

http://www.tweelingenregister.org/nederl...r_2011.pdf

"...the environmental factors that cause a person to take up exercise do not cause lower anxiety or depressive symptoms in that person, currently or at any future time point. In contrast, the genetic factors that cause a person to take up exercise also cause lower anxiety or depressive symptoms in that person at the present and all future time points."

More or less, this means that exercise has no proven benefit is reducing depression or anxiety except in those genetically pre-disposed to exercise (who seem to have lower depression and anxiety anyhow).

There's a blogger by the name of Jayman (he writes here http://jaymans.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/...t-disease/) that writes on behavioral genetics that likes to point out that whenever medical doctors claim that a certain treatment causes certain outcomes, and that treatment has only been tested on certain populations, then you might have genetic confounds- that treatment may or not have same effect on another genetic population. Maybe exercise provides protection against anxiety in those pre-disposed to exercise- but, it has no proven effects in depressed patients.

On the flipside, there probably are environmental factors that modulate the impact of depression-causing genes within a certain population. I remember reading a few years back (http://www.wired.com/2010/09/the-depress...pathogens/) that the serotonin transportation gene (also known as SLC6A4, and known by some as SERT) seems to have very different effects depending on the environment- increasing depression in the case of the short-alleles in individualist Western environments, yet providing protection in collectivist Eastern ones. So, like always, there is some environmental component, just not the ones we think they are.

Post: #23

(12-27-2014 12:06 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Anti depressants are a massive scam.
Even in the rigged studies that Big Pharm puts out, they show no advantage over placebo, except in the cases of the most severely depressed patients.
I strongly suspect that even this modest advantage over placebo in a small subset of cases is due to the fact that anti depressants have rather noticeable side affects, so the studies aren't really blind. You would have to give patients a sugar pill that mimicked the side affect profile of the anti depressant being tested in order to have a truly blind and scientific study. This is vitally important, because the results of an anti depressant test are based on the Hamilton scale for depression, which is a subjective self reporting of a patient's mood combined with some very subjective non scientific physical observations by a psychiatrist. So if the patients realize they are being tested with the anti depressant, wishful thinking will color their self reporting and destroy the validity of the study.
Exercise, on the other hand, has a 100% effective anti depressant effect in both humans and animals. Take a depressed person, force them to exercise 30 mins a day for two weeks, and I guarantee the results will trump any medication available.
As for animals...I've spent time around horses...you keep em locked up in their stalls too much and they will bite things and become ornery. Same goes with people.
Also, exercise will maintain and improve your mental acuity and delay or prevent the onset of dementia. Anti depressants are good at making people half retarded and increasing their risk of dementia. I can't say enough bad things about anti depressants.

This isn't true. I 100% agree that antidepressants are over-prescribed, but in patients where they work they are effective. I also agree that prescribing antidepressants without lifestyle modifications (exercise, healthy diet, CBT) is often useless, again they are remarkably effective for some people.

It's often a catch-22 with depression: people who are depressed simply cannot make the necessary lifestyle changes (exercise, health diet, etc) because serious depression sucks every motivation and positive thought out of them. So there's no easy solution because in cases of major depression saying "man up" just doesn't work because of the fucked up neural pathways.

Also, I'd add that St Johns Wort/5HTP/L-Dopa and other OTC supplements sometimes are just as effective if not more than the Big Pharma antidepressants. But it all comes down to the individual: although we're all the same biologically, we don't respond to all the same things when it comes down to these neurotransmitter details

Please don't miscontrue what I'm saying: exercise is probably the most effective antidepressant out there but medication & supplements have value too.

Post: #24

(01-02-2015 11:49 AM)monster Wrote:  This isn't true. I 100% agree that antidepressants are over-prescribed, but in patients where they work they are effective. I also agree that prescribing antidepressants without lifestyle modifications (exercise, healthy diet, CBT) is often useless, again they are remarkably effective for some people.

It's often a catch-22 with depression: people who are depressed simply cannot make the necessary lifestyle changes (exercise, health diet, etc) because serious depression sucks every motivation and positive thought out of them. So there's no easy solution because in cases of major depression saying "man up" just doesn't work because of the fucked up neural pathways.

Also, I'd add that St Johns Wort/5HTP/L-Dopa and other OTC supplements sometimes are just as effective if not more than the Big Pharma antidepressants. But it all comes down to the individual: although we're all the same biologically, we don't respond to all the same things when it comes down to these neurotransmitter details

Please don't miscontrue what I'm saying: exercise is probably the most effective antidepressant out there but medication & supplements have value too.

I'm afraid we just don't agree, except on the exercise part. Correlation is not equal to causation. I could take 100 depressed patients, and tell them to wear a purple colored magic copper bracelet that cures depression...and guess what? 2 months later some of them would be cured!!!

My information comes from a peer reviewed article, "Selective Publication of Antidepressant Trials and Its Influence on Apparent Efficacy" published in New England Journal of Medicine in 2008, in which a researcher used the Freedom of Information Act to get access to the unpublished failed studies conducted by big pharma and then combined the data from those with the data from all published studies, to get a meta statistical picture of whether or not they actually worked. It turns out that the results trumpeted in paid ads were from cherry picked studies.

Furthermore, all this talk of pathways, and how SSRIs etc "balance" your levels of dopamine and seratonin, are theories with no scientific substantiation.
Their mechanism of action is essentially unknown.
The regulation of our mood and emotions is a highly complex process involving both absolute and relative levels of various chemicals, where the number of variables far exceeds any real understanding of them.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa065779

Quote:BACKGROUND
Evidence-based medicine is valuable to the extent that the evidence base is complete and unbiased. Selective publication of clinical trials — and the outcomes within those trials — can lead to unrealistic estimates of drug effectiveness and alter the apparent risk–benefit ratio.
Full Text of Background...
METHODS
We obtained reviews from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for studies of 12 antidepressant agents involving 12,564 patients. We conducted a systematic literature search to identify matching publications. For trials that were reported in the literature, we compared the published outcomes with the FDA outcomes. We also compared the effect size derived from the published reports with the effect size derived from the entire FDA data set.
Full Text of Methods...
RESULTS
Among 74 FDA-registered studies, 31%, accounting for 3449 study participants, were not published. Whether and how the studies were published were associated with the study outcome. A total of 37 studies viewed by the FDA as having positive results were published; 1 study viewed as positive was not published. Studies viewed by the FDA as having negative or questionable results were, with 3 exceptions, either not published (22 studies) or published in a way that, in our opinion, conveyed a positive outcome (11 studies). According to the published literature, it appeared that 94% of the trials conducted were positive. By contrast, the FDA analysis showed that 51% were positive. Separate meta-analyses of the FDA and journal data sets showed that the increase in effect size ranged from 11 to 69% for individual drugs and was 32% overall.
Full Text of Results...
CONCLUSIONS
We cannot determine whether the bias observed resulted from a failure to submit manuscripts on the part of authors and sponsors, from decisions by journal editors and reviewers not to publish, or both. Selective reporting of clinical trial results may have adverse consequences for researchers, study participants, health care professionals, and patients.

Post: #25

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253608/

Quote:Abstract
Background

Meta-analyses of antidepressant medications have reported only modest benefits over placebo treatment, and when unpublished trial data are included, the benefit falls below accepted criteria for clinical significance. Yet, the efficacy of the antidepressants may also depend on the severity of initial depression scores. The purpose of this analysis is to establish the relation of baseline severity and antidepressant efficacy using a relevant dataset of published and unpublished clinical trials.

Methods and Findings

We obtained data on all clinical trials submitted to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for the licensing of the four new-generation antidepressants for which full datasets were available. We then used meta-analytic techniques to assess linear and quadratic effects of initial severity on improvement scores for drug and placebo groups and on drug–placebo difference scores. Drug–placebo differences increased as a function of initial severity, rising from virtually no difference at moderate levels of initial depression to a relatively small difference for patients with very severe depression, reaching conventional criteria for clinical significance only for patients at the upper end of the very severely depressed category. Meta-regression analyses indicated that the relation of baseline severity and improvement was curvilinear in drug groups and showed a strong, negative linear component in placebo groups.

Conclusions

Drug–placebo differences in antidepressant efficacy increase as a function of baseline severity, but are relatively small even for severely depressed patients. The relationship between initial severity and antidepressant efficacy is attributable to decreased responsiveness to placebo among very severely depressed patients, rather than to increased responsiveness to medication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kirs...epressants

Quote:Research on antidepressants[edit]
Kirsch’s analysis of the effectiveness of antidepressants was an outgrowth of his interest in the placebo effect. His studies in this area are primarily meta-analyses, in which the results of previously conducted clinical trials are aggregated and analyzed statistically. His first meta-analysis was aimed at assessing the size of the placebo effect in the treatment of depression.[7] The results not only showed a sizable placebo effect, but also indicated that the drug effect was surprisingly small. This led Kirsch to shift his interest to evaluating the antidepressant drug effect. Kirsch’s first meta-analysis was limited to published clinical trials. The controversy surrounding this analysis led him to obtain files from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) containing data from trials that had not been published, as well as those data from published trials. Kirsch’s analyses of the FDA data showed that the difference between antidepressant drugs and placebos was not clinically significant, according to the criteria used by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which establishes treatment guidelines for the National Health Service (NHS) in the United Kingdom.[8] Kirsch challenges the chemical-imbalance theory of depression, writing "It now seems beyond question that the traditional account of depression as a chemical imbalance in the brain is simply wrong." [9] In 2014, Christian Jarrett on the British Psychological Society's Research Digest, included Kirsch's 2008 antidepressant placebo effect study in a list of the 10 most controversial psychology studies ever published.[10]