Post: #1

Recently, I saw this news article about a woman who decided to take her own life after being diagnosed with brain cancer.

Her comments on the ethics of her decision:

Quote:"I believe this choice is ethical, and what makes it ethical is it is a choice," she says. "The patient can change their mind right up to the last minute. I feel very protected here in Oregon."

This woman thinks "autonomous decision-making" is the yardstick for ethics. I don't think she has considered that she didn't decide to get cancer.

Quote:"I really wanted to celebrate my husband's birthday, which is October 30," she says. "I'm getting sicker, dealing with more pain and seizures and difficulties so I just selected it."

So, her ethical decision is to kill herself two days after her "beloved" husband's birthday?

In this instance, I think this is an example of Type-A woman who has always gotten her way and was completely blindsided by her diagnosis. Her dogged insistence that "this is her choice" is mostly likely a way of a woman who is terrified of losing complete control of the world around her, so suicide is a way of keeping the story about her and ensuring those around her will never forget her.

Recall Elliot Rodger. Part of what motivated his suicide was his desire to ensure that those around him will never, ever forget about him. They might have ignored him while he was alive, but he knows they can't forget about him if he kills himself. It ensures his relevancy in his death.

Obviously, I have never been a fan of euthanasia. Framing it as compassion and dignity is a way of paving over what happens: either a doctor takes a life (what happened to the cardinal rule, "First, do no harm?") or a person takes their own life.

Personally, I could not perform euthanasia on a patient. I could not live with myself. I would be much more comfortable executing a convicted murderer or serial rapist after judicial appeals. In that situation, a person has caused great and substantial harm to others and the fabric of society, so taking a life is justified because there are lines that humans should never cross and there simply is no coming back from some extremely depraved decisions.

I just don't think I could take a life simply because a person is in pain. I would feel a great level of empathy with those slated to the grave, but I could not pull the lever or administer the needle. Given the reality of pain-killers and the advanced state of modern medicine, I just don't think I could justify the act in my mind. To me, there is a difference between mercifully taking a man's life when you are in the wild and he is suffering from a fatal snake bite or flesh wound. When a person can avail themselves of the modern medical establishment, I would feel much more anxiety over committing the act.

Further, when considering a sick individual decides to take their own life, I can't support that. While certainly people have always been free to string themselves up or fling themselves off bridges, I can't support that because of the harm that said act will cause their family. Not only is a family struggling to cope with the imminent loss of a loved member, but to also deal with suicide?

Death, when reached naturally, has a curious way of resolving some emotional issues. When a person decided to unnaturally take their life before God does, I think it creates needless emotional turmoil in people who love the person because it forces them to come to terms with the death before nature runs its course. In essence, it forces people to deal with your death on your timetable, instead of nature's or other people's timetables.

What are you opinions these sorts of situations? I don't think there ever can be a clean-cut answer that is satisfying to all people. Emotions that are stirred up by euthanasia are incredibly strong. That being said, I don't think it should cloud our judgment about what really is going on: either euthanasia involves a doctor violating their first principle about not doing any harm or it involves suicide.

Thoughts?

Post: #2

I dunno man. I can respect where you're coming from, but I think I disagree.

There are levels of pain that make life not worth living. Sometimes they get better, sometimes they don't. If they don't, and you're just suffering and suffering, I don't think there's anything wrong with ending your life.
Whether it's okay for a doctor to do it is a question I don't know if I'm qualified to answer. But if someone I knew was in such pain and misery that they couldn't sleep, they couldn't eat, they couldn't do anything except sit and feel terrible every single day for the next several years, I would support them if they decided to end their lives. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I wouldn't stop them. And given that a person has a right to take their own life, why is it wrong for someone else to help them? If they're going to die, why shouldn't it be in the most painless way possible? The alternative is them going out to a shed and blowing their brains out, or jumping off the golden gate bridge. How is that better for anyone?

I don't know that nature has a time table. I don't think that's a thing. And I certainly don't think that you have an obligation to say, suffer 3 years of cancer and then die as opposed to ending your life immediately, even if this creates emotional turmoil in the people around you. It will cause them suffering, sure, but if your life is so bad that you're willing to end it, the suffering it will save you is doubtlessly greater.

Post: #3

I'm in favour for euthanasia. I'd like to decide what I want to do with my own body.
In fact it's not a matter of euthanasia, it's a matter of freedom.
Do other people have more right to decide about your life and death than yourself?

But when it comes to Suicide I'm totally against it and I show no sympathy for people who have done it. It's a weak, egoistic desicion which most likely will make family and friends suffer for a long time. It's the easy way out.

One close friend from my childhood decided out of the blue one day to go in the basement and blow his head of with a shotgun. Now imagine the scene his parents had to witness when they came home from their vacation. Nonetheless they had to move out from the house.

Suicide is for loosers and the ultimate pussies with a balls size of a shrinked raisin.

Post: #4

This movie about Kevorkian really changed my views on him.

I think if most people want to die they can still do it themselves but some people do reach a point where help is needed. If I saw a wounded animal that I couldn't save I would put it down. I don't think less of people in stories that do something similar to humans on the battlefield.

Post: #5

What do you guys think about Euthanasia when it comes to the cost of medical healthcare?

Has this been researched at all in countries where it's legal?
How much people have used euthanasia in the same countries?

Statistics?

Post: #6

Why not? I don't care whether Euthanasia is moral or what its psychological origins are. If it doesn't harm others, it's all fine by me.

- If we're looking at this just individually, I certainly can't make an argument that dying of cancer in lots of pain over several months is better than just getting an injection and never waking up. Give me the injection please.

- If we're looking at this as a group issue, do the needs of other people for emotional closure outweigh the suffering of that individual? I think not. Who said that people can only deal with losing a loved one if they die slowly? And even if that were true and euthanasia was something cowardly, I wouldn't advise for it to be banned, just discouraged.

- If we're looking at this as a society, what costs or negative effects occur from allowing euthanasia? I don't think there are any - if anything it saves money that would be wasted on expensive end of life care for a patient who can't be saved.

The only problem with it is potential abuse. In the case of someone like a 100% disabled person who needs it the most (because, in the case they do want to end their life, they are physically unable to do so), it would be hard to prove that the person actually wanted it and that it wasn't just the case of family members just convincing themselves of it.

Post: #7

A member at a club I worked at was diagnosed with ALS after I left. I remember him as a funny dude, active and above all, healthy. I happened upon an article a few months back about him and how he went to Switzerland to take his own life. He posted a video outlining his reasons.

The man in the video and the man I remember are totally different people. His face was sallow and his muscles all but gone. I remember him playing with his daughter every Saturday morning.

He was very well educated and was a lawyer. He gave me some of the best advice I've ever received.

In the end, he was pissed because our government (Canada) has all of these restrictions in place when it comes to end of life care. The current system believes it best to assuage all pain through the use of heavy medication, effectively robbing the person of their last days as the person they were. Is it better to go out possessing your mental faculties; or is it better to go out totally numb?

He chose to go out with all the dignity he could muster, and I'm not sure any one or any entity has the right to say otherwise.

Post: #8

Quote:I'm in favour for euthanasia. I'd like to decide what I want to do with my own body.
In fact it's not a matter of euthanasia, it's a matter of freedom.
Do other people have more right to decide about your life and death than yourself?

But when it comes to Suicide I'm totally against it and I show no sympathy for people who have done it. It's a weak, egoistic desicion which most likely will make family and friends suffer for a long time. It's the easy way out.

What's the difference between euthanasia and suicide? Why are you for one but against the other?

Post: #9

No one has a right to tell you what you can do with your own body. Euthanasia/suicide are natural rights.

Post: #10

Quote:Further, when considering a sick individual decides to take their own life, I can't support that. While certainly people have always been free to string themselves up or fling themselves off bridges, I can't support that because of the harm that said act will cause their family. Not only is a family struggling to cope with the imminent loss of a loved member, but to also deal with suicide?

Death, when reached naturally, has a curious way of resolving some emotional issues. When a person decided to unnaturally take their life before God does, I think it creates needless emotional turmoil in people who love the person because it forces them to come to terms with the death before nature runs its course. In essence, it forces people to deal with your death on your timetable, instead of nature's or other people's timetables.

I like how you think it is such an easy decision for these people to take their own lives in the face of the "what ifs?".

I expected less ignorant remarks about such a topic knowing full well what people go through. But let me enlighten you on the subject.

History

I have no clue about how many but throughout the centuries soldiers who were disfigured and mortally wounded would kill themselves or have their comrades do it.

Morbid? Yes. Would it raise eyebrows now? Yes. Would brothers in arms still do it if there were no way of others finding out? Yes.

People have always killed themselves. What I do not agree on is those selfish people who walk in front of trains or buses to do it.


I worked at a house whose neighbour had a man with an ABI (Acquired Brain Injury). How do you get one of these? By suffering some hit to your cranium which re-wires you and traps you in your own body.

Want to know why mentally ill people always whine and cry? They're normal people trapped in their shells. However there is no escape for these people in suicide because they cannot convey what they want.

Imagine a life where you soil yourself, can never love or fulfill dreams. You can never get drunk, fuck a girl or smoke a joint. Sounds fun?

The people with terminal illnesses or those who can convey to the outside world what they want have the gift of choice.

I for one have told my parents numerous times that if I became a vegetable I'd want to die. I would never want to put others through the emotional train wreck that this sort of thing entails.

I'd choose death over a life of suffering like that.

Post: #11

I am against Euthanasia. I am pro banning the practice of artificially prolonging lives of those who should have been dead a long time away anyway. If someone is diagnosed incurable he/she should be let to spend the rest of his days gracefully in clear conscience and not fed drugs and being connected to tubes and machines with fat nurses changing diapers. This unhealthy attachment to existence after life is over is soul killing and it costs damn too much tax money.

Post: #12

"Nature runs it's course" is an example of the fantasy that nature is anything but a clusterfuck that destroys you.

Whether someone kills themselves or not seems to me to be decidedly none of your business.

If it's the result of mental illness I can see trying to stop them but if they have some awful terminal disease it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Besides if you're under 50-60 and have never had a chronic illness you especially have no real valuable perspective on the issue. All you've known is health and the illusion of eternal increasing power.

Post: #13

(10-07-2014 01:32 AM)Chaos Wrote:  I'm in favour for euthanasia. I'd like to decide what I want to do with my own body.
In fact it's not a matter of euthanasia, it's a matter of freedom.
Do other people have more right to decide about your life and death than yourself?

But when it comes to Suicide I'm totally against it and I show no sympathy for people who have done it. It's a weak, egoistic desicion which most likely will make family and friends suffer for a long time. It's the easy way out.

One close friend from my childhood decided out of the blue one day to go in the basement and blow his head of with a shotgun. Now imagine the scene his parents had to witness when they came home from their vacation. Nonetheless they had to move out from the house.

Suicide is for loosers and the ultimate pussies with a balls size of a shrinked raisin.

Mr. Chaos - what is euthanasia but assisted suicide?

Does placing the burden of physically ending your life on shoulders other than your own mean it is not suicide anymore?

Do you know what death by cop is? When a man goes out of his way to surround himself by police (say he was on the run) and deliberately makes a quick motion of pulling something out of his pockets and the police shoot him down. It's called death by cop or suicide by cop.

What would you call it? The man did not take his own life - it was the police who shot him to death. But then again, had not deliberately made a move that the police would interpret as deadly, he might not be dead.

G

Post: #14

I am personally against it but I see no reason for it to be illegal. I have seen a few different relatives with terminal cancer suffer horribly before they finally died.

In my opinion, a suffering terminal person asking a doctor to put them down is not suicide or murder. It's a consensual termination of life.

And I honestly think it happens from time to time under the radar today anyway via drug overdose.

Post: #15

There are already 7 billion people on earth. Enough said.

Post: #16

I know that it's legal in either the Netherlands or Belgium (can't remember which one) and that there aren't TOO many problems with it. However, I get the feeling the bureaucratic European Court of Human Rights is trying to get them to change it. Personally, I'm all for it. People should have this right. If there is a right to life (which is why murder is illegal), shouldn't there be a right to death?

Post: #17

We are pretty much on the verge of legalising Euthanasia in the UK.

Let's expand this out though.

People say that nobody should have the right to tell you what you can or cannot do with your own body.

Cool.

But - imagine a world - where every single person alive decided they wanted to kill them self.

Thus ending the human race.

I know it is a silly thought experiment. But I am just curious if anyone who supports euthanasia would be troubled by the extreme case of humanity volunteering to make itself extinct.

Would that worry you? And if so - does that fly against the idea that what you do to your own body is inviolate?

Personally - it wouldn't bother me. I don't give a fuck about anything.

Post: #18

Those who are against is will feel differently once they are older and are living a life with pain (though I obviously don't wish that on anyone but it's just a reality of life).

Post: #19

Post: #20

I have no problem at all with the youth in Asia...some weird trends, but they seem ok.

Post: #21

I remember watching an episode of Star Trek Voyager a few years ago that debated the issue of euthanasia.

One line that stuck in my memory was:
"Any action which has the principal effect of relieving suffering may be ethically justified, even though the same action has the secondary effect of possible causing death."

Post: #22

(10-07-2014 03:25 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Quote:I'm in favour for euthanasia. I'd like to decide what I want to do with my own body.
In fact it's not a matter of euthanasia, it's a matter of freedom.
Do other people have more right to decide about your life and death than yourself?

But when it comes to Suicide I'm totally against it and I show no sympathy for people who have done it. It's a weak, egoistic desicion which most likely will make family and friends suffer for a long time. It's the easy way out.

What's the difference between euthanasia and suicide? Why are you for one but against the other?

I think Euthanasia is when someone else makes the decision you should croak.

Generally I am against this, but there is a lot of grey area such as aggressive intervention to prolong the suffering of a terminal patient who can't really respond coherently to the question "Do you want us to keep you alive?

I believe everyone has the right to suicide.

If you don't like the idea of suicide, don't do it.
It's your body. If you are diagnosed with something extremely discomforting or terminal with darkening prospects for remaining enjoyment I think they should allow you to take nice go-to-sleep drugs.

However, there should me a mental health eval. I don't think depressed people without terminal conditions should be aided in suicide, because they can't make an objective decision due to their depression.

Post: #23

Should be legal, but it can join the queue.

Post: #24

(10-07-2014 03:43 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  No one has a right to tell you what you can do with your own body. Euthanasia/suicide are natural rights.

If you're suicidal you may have the most stable mindset or hindsight to take a such big decision.

Post: #25

Vonnegut wrote a story about a future where 17 billion people live on the earth, and to control the population, the World Government has implemented "ethical suicide parlors" across the world, staffed with beautiful virgins with advanced degrees in psychology, as well as martial arts training.

People are forced to take "ethical birth control pills". The story says:

"The pills were ethical because they didn't interfere with a person's ability to reproduce, which would have been unnatural and immoral. All the pills did was take every bit of pleasure out of sex.

Thus did science and morals go hand in hand."

The story is about a fugitive who refuses to take the pills, and goes on a crime spree of deflowering these Virgin Ph.D Martial Artist Suicide Parlor Girls.

http://www.vrdiscovery.com/scifimed/MonkStry.pdf