Post: #101

"He's got some African in him" is just a piss-poor choice of words, not racism. That dude is smart enough to know you can't say shit like that without ruffling a few SJW feathers.

Post: #102

(09-08-2014 05:44 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Yes, he made a mistake - he misspoke when trying to articulate his thoughts.

There is zero evidence for any kind of racist intent behind what he said, so why are we inventing one?

I'm imagining a future where people get set up and secretly recorded making innocuous statements that sound racist out of context.

*After trying on a white suit and a black one*

Sales associate: "Which do you prefer, sir?"
Extreme Racist: "I didn't really like the black one."

THE KING OF RACISTS HAS REVEALED HIMSELF!!! ALERT THE PRESS!!!

*Edited clip later played on CNN*

Restaurant manager: "Why did you want a new waiter sir?"
Extreme Racist: "I didn't really like the black one."

This is literally where we're going. We're degenerating into "gotcha" racism rather than anything remotely resembling real racism. It's fucking stupid. Why do we have to go out of our way to find racism everywhere? Does anyone actually benefit from this, black or white? All this does is stir up racial resentment.

I quoted this so you might read what you wrote and realize how ludicrous that is.

Do you not believe that racism exists? That it isn't an institutionalized societal problem? I don't know if you are serious.

The articles make it seem as if Luol Deng being African was an issue. This is what you believed yourself not too long ago. That he was incapable of coexisting with black American players.

What would you call that? Some form of prejudice, no? Perhaps even racist when the white GM is the one that says it.

By ignoring the true realities of present day race relations you can never come to a true understanding of the situation, or why it might be offensive. It is far too easy to be overly reactionary and push yourself outside the realm of logic.

The initial email that leaked was, to me, insignificant. The reveal a few days later of what the GM said exacerbates the situation. The truth is that as a white male, I can never try to put myself believably in the shoes of the average black person.

I can try, I can also try to make things seem not racist as all. It's all in how you frame it, and each person has their own frame, or bubble, that they exist within.

To me I see a comedy of errors. To you, you see an overtly politically correct environment. To others they see racism.

Post: #103

From a business standpoint, I find the statements to be irresponsible, if we're just looking at them from that standpoint, in other words, they don't help business.

If some people are saying people should be allowed to say what they want to say, and others just deal with it and/or not have any feelings whatsoever about it, that's just simply unrealistic.

The idea that in 2014 a professional sports franchise owner can make a comment such as "the kiss cam is too black" and one of his high-level executives can say a player "has African in him", and neither one of those statements is worth questioning, or the idea that this is non-news, is puzzling to say the least.

Post: #104

(09-08-2014 05:44 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Yes, he made a mistake - he misspoke when trying to articulate his thoughts.

There is zero evidence for any kind of racist intent behind what he said, so why are we inventing one?

I'm imagining a future where people get set up and secretly recorded making innocuous statements that sound racist out of context.

*After trying on a white suit and a black one*

Sales associate: "Which do you prefer, sir?"
Extreme Racist: "I didn't really like the black one."

THE KING OF RACISTS HAS REVEALED HIMSELF!!! ALERT THE PRESS!!!

*Edited clip later played on CNN*

Restaurant manager: "Why did you want a new waiter sir?"
Extreme Racist: "I didn't really like the black one."

This is literally where we're going. We're degenerating into "gotcha" racism rather than anything remotely resembling real racism. It's fucking stupid. Why do we have to go out of our way to find racism everywhere? Does anyone actually benefit from this, black or white? All this does is stir up racial resentment.

This shit makes me not take claims of racism all that seriously because like rape hysteria and feminists conveniently redefining rape to mean a zillion different things I just stop giving a fuck, which is bad. It's getting to the point where if a black person claims someone acted in a racist manner toward them I immediately discount it until I've done enough research on my own to confirm it (if I feel like doing it).

I'm only one man but I'm guessing other frustrated white people feel the same way and I know for a fact it leads some of them to embrace racism just out of spite. They see race-obsessed blacks incessantly advocating for their tribe, persecuting people for innocuous shit like this e-mail and start wondering why their own race doesn't stick together.

Being obsessed with race is not psychologically healthy and detrimental to social cohesion.

Post: #105

(09-08-2014 05:59 PM)Big Country Wrote:  The truth is that as a white male, I can never try to put myself believably in the shoes of the average black person.

"The truth is that as a male, I can never try to put myself believably in the shoes of the average woman."

If you're honestly tortured by this type of manufactured guilt and "privilege", this is probably not the right forum for you. We deal with reality here, not feelings.

As much as I disagree with jariel, I can at least understand and respect his view as a black man. But I have no patience for phony white guilt from you. GTFO of here with that nonsense. Go concern troll somewhere else.

Post: #106

(09-08-2014 05:59 PM)jariel Wrote:  From a business standpoint, I find the statements to be irresponsible, if we're just looking at them from that standpoint, in other words, they don't help business.

If some people are saying people should be allowed to say what they want to say, and others just deal with it and/or not have any feelings whatsoever about it, that's just simply unrealistic.

The idea that in 2014 a professional sports franchise owner can make a comment such as "the kiss cam is too black" and one of his high-level executives can say a player "has African in him", and neither one of those statements is worth questioning, or the idea that this is non-news, is puzzling to say the least.

I honestly do not see anything wrong with the way he said it. It was an internal email using "plain talk" dialogue. It was not written for a public audience. Believe it or not, internal email usually is not written for public audiences.

The has African in him statement is too coded to figure out what the connotation actually was, without asking this Jerry guy about it. You and Scorpion trying to guess whether or not it was racist or a poor choice of words is not a good idea. Both of you could be eating all those words if he meant that in regards to him being a lover of African stew or gussi soup like Moma was suggesting.

Post: #107

I've heard the 'African' statement used in football (soccer) quite a lot in Europe, particularly back in the 90s about new African arrivals in the soccer leagues. As in a player is 'african in playing style', intended to mean he plays undisciplined and lacks tactical understanding, but the flip side the idea that playing African is creative and offensive in his game. Likewise, one would say that a team or player was 'a bit german', playing 'panzer football', being highly tactical and physical but without a lick of creativity. Lots of prejudice used to exist in football, southern euros was seen as being obsessed with style over efficiency, brazilians glorified and at the same time denigrated as being too playful. Northern euros seen as playing ugly and leaving no room for individuality.

In America, just think of how many times you've heard American (black certainly too) players and sportscasters call all euro ballers 'soft'. In fact it goes on to this day, a soft euro is pretty much the standard. It is also no secret that black players in the 70s and 80s used to think white guys couldn't play ball. Isiah Thomas and that famous Larry Bird statement.

Charles Oakley:

“When we played in the ’80s, it wasn’t OK [for European players to play in the NBA]. They weren’t coming over here. They were scared. The game was tough and they weren’t tough."

Now, I think guys like Sarunas Marciulinis might disagree on that. Isn't the above also a bit racist if you apply the same sensitive mindset?

Sports has these idiosyncrasies. Whenever I watch NBA TV Open Court and you have topics on race and such, I always notice the older guys like Barkley, Dominique and such always downplay the racial angle and joke about it. Then you have younger guys like Chris Webber who seems to have a completely different perspective and a bit of a social crusader.

Without knowing more about Danny Ferry, I'd chalk it up to sports idiosyncrasies. Poor choice of wording in a modern world, but I doubt it is any different than Oakleys comment above.

Post: #108

While reading this thread I was thinking to myself that this is by far the best thread to do with race RVF has ever had, at least for the first 3 pages.

Post: #109

(09-08-2014 07:40 PM)berserk Wrote:  I've heard the 'African' statement used in football (soccer) quite a lot in Europe, particularly back in the 90s about new African arrivals in the soccer leagues. As in a player is 'african in playing style', intended to mean he plays undisciplined and lacks tactical understanding, but the flip side the idea that playing African is creative and offensive in his game. Likewise, one would say that a team or player was 'a bit german', playing 'panzer football', being highly tactical and physical but without a lick of creativity. Lots of prejudice used to exist in football, southern euros was seen as being obsessed with style over efficiency, brazilians glorified and at the same time denigrated as being too playful. Northern euros seen as playing ugly and leaving no room for individuality.

In America, just think of how many times you've heard American (black certainly too) players and sportscasters call all euro ballers 'soft'. In fact it goes on to this day, a soft euro is pretty much the standard. It is also no secret that black players in the 70s and 80s used to think white guys couldn't play ball. Isiah Thomas and that famous Larry Bird statement.

Charles Oakley:

“When we played in the ’80s, it wasn’t OK [for European players to play in the NBA]. They weren’t coming over here. They were scared. The game was tough and they weren’t tough."

Now, I think guys like Sarunas Marciulinis might disagree on that. Isn't the above also a bit racist if you apply the same sensitive mindset?

Sports has these idiosyncrasies. Whenever I watch NBA TV Open Court and you have topics on race and such, I always notice the older guys like Barkley, Dominique and such always downplay the racial angle and joke about it. Then you have younger guys like Chris Webber who seems to have a completely different perspective and a bit of a social crusader.

Without knowing more about Danny Ferry, I'd chalk it up to sports idiosyncrasies. Poor choice of wording in a modern world, but I doubt it is any different than Oakleys comment above.

Good point berserk. I forgot about that phrase in soccer but never thought of applying it to basketball. If that was the case then it's definitely not racist because like you said, players that were less tactical had advantages others didn't have. If they were coached up they could become great potentially. Not a smoking gun but that is a good guess that might explain it.

Post: #110

Kareem has now weighed in:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kareem-abdu...44960.html

Quote:In the email, addressed to Hawks President Danny Ferry, Levenson wonders whether (according to his observations) the emphasis on hip-hop and gospel music, the fact that the cheerleaders are black, the bars are filled with 90 percent blacks, kiss-cams focus on black fans, and timeout contestants are always black has an effect on keeping away white fans.

Seems reasonable to ask those questions. If his arena was filled mostly with whites and he wanted to attract blacks, wouldn’t he be asking how they could de-emphasize white culture and bias toward white contestants and cheerleaders? Don’t you think every corporation in America that is trying to attract a more diverse customer base is discussing how to feature more blacks or Asians or Latinos in their TV ads?

He wasn’t valuing white fans over blacks, he was trying to figure out a way to change what he thought was the white perception in Atlanta so he could sell more tickets. That’s his job.

Post: #111

Luol Deng migrated to the UK as a refugee from Sudan after first fleeing to Egypt with his dad, brothers, sister etc.

He started playing basketball at Brixton Recreation Centre under Jimmy and he was recognised by US scouts who had already previously drafted his older brother Ajou Deng to Duke. So from 8 to age now, where is this African element they speak of? It's not like they picked him up at age 30 like Dikembe Mutombo.

So what African behavioural leftovers persist into a player's DNA that don't get socialised out after beaucoup years living in the West? He was in London from probably 8 until 13 and then he played high school in New Jersey, would come back during summer for Rough and Ready in Brixton and then finally Duke and then the NBA.

He is now 29.

So what is this 'still African' that they speak of?

Did Hakeem have it? Did Dikembe have it? Does Ibaka have it?

I am not even inflamed, I'm honestly curious (I love North American social dynamics).

Diagnose the interview below and extract the 'African'. I see no difference between him and Zach Randolf

Post: #112

(09-08-2014 07:40 PM)berserk Wrote:  In America, just think of how many times you've heard American (black certainly too) players and sportscasters call all euro ballers 'soft'. In fact it goes on to this day, a soft euro is pretty much the standard. It is also no secret that black players in the 70s and 80s used to think white guys couldn't play ball. Isiah Thomas and that famous Larry Bird statement.

Charles Oakley:

“When we played in the ’80s, it wasn’t OK [for European players to play in the NBA]. They weren’t coming over here. They were scared. The game was tough and they weren’t tough."

Now, I think guys like Sarunas Marciulinis might disagree on that. Isn't the above also a bit racist if you apply the same sensitive mindset?

Sports has these idiosyncrasies. Whenever I watch NBA TV Open Court and you have topics on race and such, I always notice the older guys like Barkley, Dominique and such always downplay the racial angle and joke about it.

I actually agree with this. Its not just European players but white American players as well that are deemed "not good enough," simply because they are white.

That's why I think Larry Bird was important as I mentioned in my earlier post. Larry Bird took that very personally and was very offended when opposing teams will put a white guy to guard him, he even says till this day that he wasn't sure why, but it bothered him.

Even today with JJ Reddick from the Clippers. Reddick was a victim of Donald Sterling's bigotry when he said he didn't want to pay for Reddick because to Sterling, white players weren't good enough.

Like coach Doc Rivers said, Reddick was just as pissed as all the other Clippers players when the Sterling tapes came out.

Even today when good white players come out of the draft they automatically compare them to other white players.

I remember when Pau Gasol came into the NBA and Garnett before a game was saying that Gasol was soft. Garnett was the main proponent in saying that Euro players were soft then this happened.





So yeah there is an argument that could be said about racism in the NBA towards white players. I know because many of these white players take it personally and get extremely offended by it.

Post: #113

We don't have enough context to know what Ferry meant by "has a little African still in him." It could be something uncomplimentary, as in he's still pretty gauche when it comes to Western culture and values...or he could have been alluding to the fact that foreign-born players tend to have smaller egos and are more coachable than American players that are coddled since middle school and do the AAU circuit.

Post: #114

I don't want to get into the racial aspect of this controversy because IMO there isn't much here to see. Anybody who follows the NBA should know that Deng is regarded as one of the toughest/best perimeter defenders, a complete team guy, and someone who is a high character locker-room presence. Thibs in Chicago ran this guy into the ground and Deng never complained. My guess is that he used the word "African" as a compliment to talk about Deng's character. Atlanta would have loved to get Deng this summer but he chose Miami after LeBron's departure. I don't think Ferry was being racist towards Deng, he wanted to sign him.

Post: #115

Nvm

Post: #116

The thing that stood out for me is that someone saying 'He's got some African in him' out loud in a meeting is enough to prompt a full blown internal investigation complete with outside legal consultation, nearly two dozen interviews and combing through 24,000 documents. I don't care if you think this is evidence of racism, I find it tough to believe that the amount of human capital and time exhausted by this was the most productive use of those resources.

Post: #117

I'm really trying to think what does "African" imply in this context?

Did he mean something about his style of play? Comparing him to Dikembe, Hakeem, Ibaka, Embiid? All prominent African players I can think of are big men, and they don't really have similar styles of play as far as I can tell.

Did he mean something about his behavior or his character?

Really doesn't make sense what he even meant, it's kinda in the eyes of the beholder here.

Post: #118

(09-07-2014 11:10 PM)Big Country Wrote:  The Hawks are actually a decent team right now, they have a good core of players and a strong coach that came over from the Spurs. If Al Horford didn't get hurt they would have likely been the 3rd seed. They still made the playoffs and yet were the 28th ranked team in attendance. (http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance) They have made the playoffs seven years in a row, yet their attendance has steadily dropped over that time period. Granted they have lost in the first round every time.

Contrast that with the Utah Jazz, a team that has missed the playoffs the last two years and had one of the worst records in the league last year, yet were the 12th ranked team in attendance. Consider the two links to follow:

Salt Lake City's Demographics -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_C...mographics

Atlanta's Demographics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta

Keep in mind that Atlanta has a population of 550,000 with over 5,000,000 in its surrounding area while Salt Lake has a population of roughly 200,000 with 2,000,000 in the surrounding area.

What is truly interesting is that Atlanta had a median income of $58,000 as of 2012 while Salt Lake had a median income of $42,000.

So was Levenson at all wrong in what he said? No, he wasn't. All he is guilty of is using facts to support his notion that white fans contribute more to a team's bottom line than black fans, in general. That isn't racist, that is factual.

come on, man. you're comparing apples to oranges. SLC is lame.. people there don't have anything better to do than go to the games. Atlanta is a party city, there's more enjoyable shit to do than watch the Hawks lose. And besides, why pay 50 dollars to attend a hawks game when you could go to a braves games for a buck. The Jazz is the only major sport team in Salt Lake City, so of course attendance will be higher for the Jazz than for the Hawks.

Post: #119

So here's what happened:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2...um=twitter

In a conference call with team owners, Ferry said this:

During the call, which we recorded so that notes could be made for our partners unable to participate live, our GM Danny Ferry discussed player personnel issues at some length. With respect to one potential free agent, a highly-regarded African-American player and humanitarian, Ferry talked about the player’s good points, and then on to describe his negatives, stating that “he has a little African in him. Not in a bad way, but he’s like a guy who would have a nice store out front but sell you counterfeit stuff out the back.” Ferry completed the racial slur by describing the player (and impliedly, all persons of African descent) as a two-faced liar and cheat.

So the minority partner wanted Levensen to fire Ferry. He didn't, so they basically went and tattled to Silver.

Post: #120

Post: #121

Defending either one of those guys doesn't look quit wise at this point.

Gearon wanted Levenson to fire Ferry, but Levenson knew he had some skeletons in his closet, so how could he do it?

Now they're both going to be out, Ferry's career in the league is over.

Post: #122

(09-08-2014 06:13 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(09-08-2014 05:59 PM)Big Country Wrote:  The truth is that as a white male, I can never try to put myself believably in the shoes of the average black person.

"The truth is that as a male, I can never try to put myself believably in the shoes of the average woman."

If you're honestly tortured by this type of manufactured guilt and "privilege", this is probably not the right forum for you. We deal with reality here, not feelings.

As much as I disagree with jariel, I can at least understand and respect his view as a black man. But I have no patience for phony white guilt from you. GTFO of here with that nonsense. Go concern troll somewhere else.

What you did here is no different than Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Post: #123

This isn't getting quite as much press as Sterling, for one.

While it wasn't technically racist, even pointing out a racial disproportion implying "more whites are needed" - whether indirect, direct, or partially indirect or direct (regardless of how well explained) - is simply enough to invoke the American public. It's really dumb, but not much can be done about it.

Personally, I think the larger issue is white/black relations in America. Which makes sense, given there is a different history with blacks opposed to other minority groups.

Had the Spurs owner said there were too many Hispanics at Spurs games (in the exact same way as this owner), it probably wouldn't even be discussed outside the San Antonio local paper.

Post: #124

(09-09-2014 02:24 AM)la_mode Wrote:  This isn't getting quite as much press as Sterling, for one.

While it wasn't technically racist, even pointing out a racial disproportion implying "more whites are needed" - whether indirect, direct, or partially indirect or direct (regardless of how well explained) - is simply enough to invoke the American public. It's really dumb, but not much can be done about it.

Sterling got more press because the story broke during the 1st Round of the Playoffs, training camp is around the corner, but this is still the league's offseason.

But with that being said this story isn't over for at least two reasons.

1. The full remark has not been released:

Quote:“He has a little African in him, not in a bad way, but he’s a guy who would have a nice store out front, but sell you counterfeit stuff out of the back.”

"Ferry completed the racial slur by describing the player (and impliedly, all persons of African descent) as a two-faced liar and cheat."

2. There's an audio recording of this conference call:

Quote:"We were appalled that anyone would make such a racist slur, much less the GM of an NBA franchise on a major conference call. One of us can be heard on the tape reacting with astonishment."

I expect that recording to surface at some point.

Something that has to be kept in mind, Sterling's remarks were made during a private conversation in a private setting while speaking to someone who had no affiliation to the team.

Levenson and Ferry both made their statements while conducting official team business. Levenson sent his e-mail to Ferry and two other owners, which means he left several other owners out of the loop on his thoughts, which is why his message had to be dug up via a search, simply because the question Gearon and others had was, why won't this guy fire Ferry?

Levenson's e-mail explains why.

In Ferry's case, he actually made his remark while his bosses were listening in.

Post: #125

Quote:“He has a little African in him, not in a bad way, but he’s a guy who would have a nice store out front, but sell you counterfeit stuff out of the back.”

What is Danny Ferry talking about?

Luol Deng is widely known and respected as a hard working, unselfish, team player.

The toughest coaches in the league respect Luol Deng.

Tom Thibodeau is one of the toughest basketball minds on the planet and he hated to see Luol Deng go. (Correct me if I am wrong Chicago people)

The Miami Heat got Deng to replace Lebron.

He is a well respected professional.

---

I think Ferry's comments were stupid and inaccurate.

They were stupid because assessing someones basketball skill, based on the continent that they were born on, is, well, just stupid.

Place of birth is not really relevant, especially when the athlete has literally has lived in various countries.

-Steve Nash was born in Africa.

-Kobe spent a lot of his childhood in Europe.

-Ginobili was born in Argentina.

-Tim Duncan was born in The Virgin Islands.

-Patrick Ewing was born in Jamaica.

Deng left Sudan at an early age and moved to Egypt before settling in London and than finally America at age 14.

Trying to assess someones basketball ability based on their continent of birth is just bad basketball management.

The Spurs were drafting European players back when Europeans were considered "soft".

---

Ferry's comments were also inaccurate, in my opinion.

Deng is proven to be a tough competitor. Deng has never been a selfish player or a stupid player. He has always been a good teammate and classy citizen.

Nothing in Deng's history suggests that he is a liar or a con artist.

---

What exactly did Ferry mean by "he has a little African in him", "he’s a guy who would have a nice store out front, but sell you counterfeit stuff out of the back.”

It's hard for me to say exactly what this means..?

Maybe, he is suggesting that Deng is two-faced, selfish, and a con man.

This is not consistent with other reports about Deng. Nearly all other accounts of Deng list him as solid teammate and positive influence around the locker room.

Maybe, he is suggesting that Deng is slow to pick up the subtle nuances and communication style of the American game?

That can't be true because Deng has already proven to be a smart player.

Maybe he is suggesting that Deng lacks a sense of urgency and is not a competitively honest.

That doesn't make much sense because Deng was praised in Chicago for his effort and competitiveness.

I really don't know what Danny Ferry is talking about?

I think he is just suggesting that Deng is still a little young and immature as a basketball player. He just picked a really stupid way to do it.

Maybe, Ferry will explain himself in the coming days..

---

I don't believe that Danny Ferry is a racist. I just think he made a bad decision with his choice of words in this case.

(he has probably been hanging around a bunch of old, rich, southerners -- those guys come from the old culture where making racist comments was no big deal, I think Ferry was just a little too comfortable)

He should have just said -- "he is still developing the maturity and toughness required to be a champion"

From a basketball standpoint, the fact that he was born in Africa is largely irrelevant.

Africa is actually viewed as the next great talent pool for basketball.

---

The owner did nothing wrong here.

He was just talking business, marketing, and demographics.