Post: #51

This thread has devolved into a circle jerk of self-limiting beliefs...get in shape, get your style together, find a way to get some status in life, and then most importantly go out and spend time actually meeting girls. If you've done all that then feel free to come back and complain about good-looking guys if you want but I can guarantee that at that point you will no loner care. Of course attractive guys get laid more easily then ugly ones, but it is really not that hard to get to a spot where women find you attractive regardless of your physical attributes if you are willing to work on it....if you actually do all that work and become attractive will your advice all the sudden become bad?

Post: #52

(09-01-2014 02:37 PM)tbone46 Wrote:  This thread has devolved into a circle jerk of self-limiting beliefs...get in shape, get your style together, find a way to get some status in life, and then most importantly go out and spend time actually meeting girls. If you've done all that then feel free to come back and complain about good-looking guys if you want but I can guarantee that at that point you will no loner care. Of course attractive guys get laid more easily then ugly ones, but it is really not that hard to get to a spot where women find you attractive regardless of your physical attributes if you are willing to work on it....if you actually do all that work and become attractive will your advice all the sudden become bad?

Good looking as in male 7.5-8.0+ facial features, eye color, bone structure etc.

Things you can't have with style, money, or muscle.

It is different for them and their advice is different.

Post: #53

(09-01-2014 12:15 AM)Jestx Wrote:  Yesterday I went out with my good looking friend (8+ guy). We were late and very last in line for a bar, and he was displaying horrible body language while we were waiting. Arms crossed, looking really uptight, constantly fidgeting with his hair/face. I mentioned this earlier in the night to him, saying he was coming off really insecure. Some pretty girl comes up to him and makes fun of his "seriousness" and literally told him to his face he had poor body language (duh).

He banged her that night. If any average looking guy would have acted in his manner, she doesn't even look his way.

Thread winner.

If you ever thought you were good looking or even think now after "building yourself" that you're now good-looking, it is not remotely close to true unless you experience what happened in this quote.

I have seen it happen with my male 8+ friends. My game would destroy theirs, this stuff just doesn't happen to me. And I am a 7.0 in facial looks etc.. and 6'4".

8+ males it is a different universe. They can also be doormat betas in relationships with hot girls and still get laid all the time without the girl straying. They just don't need much game all around in any context.

Their game is getting eye fucked everywhere they go which keeps their bitch in check even if she wears the pants otherwise. She knows she is depreciating and he will be a handsome guy for decades.

Post: #54

Very interesting thread.

I think i might be the only person in this thread who has lived on both sides of the equation.

I'm 3/4 jamaican and 1/4 british.

When i finished high school i was 6'3 (same height i am now) and 305lbs. I was a fat guy. I've always been able to talk to girls and had friends but i wasn't any sort of silver tongued devil like some guys. I left Canada and moved back home to live with my dad and he made me lose the weight.
Non-stop everyday for 8 months i ate healthy and worked out with him.

The result was 6'3 225lbs of solid muscle. My clothing style was terrible but i still turned heads when i left the house and went for a run or to go out with friends. At 19 i left home and traveled Europe and Asia on my own. Just by way of traveling i leaned out to 215 when i finally decided to settle in Taiwan.
The first night i went clubbing in Taiwan i basically did nothing and had girls physically fighting over me, i had choice of the girls. I could barely speak Cantonese so there wasn't much game involved and this was before i heard about it. I was super relaxed in the club with a few friends and i wasn't even paying any attention to the girls because i didn't think Asian girls were into black guys. I was a newb in game.
After a few weeks i got approached by a girl recruiting for a modeling agency. They hired me to do print work and promotional work as well.

This is where i learned how to dress myself.
Appropriate fits for my body type.
What colors worked best for my skin tone etc.
It was a this point i went back to England to visit family and the reactions from girls was like night and day from when i was last there. I went to the clubs with my friends and the reactions and behavior i got from Asian girls in Taiwan was replicated in England. The quality was a little less than in Asia i believe that was mainly due to me being exotic there and less so in England.
Again same as before, where i just basically waited around till the girls drank enough to approach me and i took her home. Rinse and repeat till i head back to Taiwan.

This was before i learned anything about game because frankly i didn't need to. Why do i need to learn how to approach girls when girls come up to me and tell me how hot i am.

Fast forward a couple of years of this and i return to Canada for university.
I get into a terrible motorcycle crash and break both of my femurs and several bones in my left arm. At the time of the crash i was 6'3 223lbs
After 10 weeks in traction i'm down to 135lbs. I'm wheelchair bound because i can't walk. I have depression and no appetite at all.

After 6 months of physio I'm somewhat back to normal but...I'm not getting laid.
Girls are turning away from me mid-sentence as if i just told them I'm HIV positive. This goes on for about a year and after several short-term relationships with low quality girls i turn to the internet and start learning game.

Now I'm back up to 220lbs with a different perspective.

More than a few observations after living both sides of this:

The better looking you are the more shitty game you can get away with. (Some of the shit i would say to girls makes me cringe now, and yet i still got laid frequently)

Guys who've never had to struggle simple don't get it. This extends to social skills and overall having a neat presentation.

If you think dressing well doesn't matter it totally does, but only when you have the body to show it off/back it up.
I got away with wearing a tank top and linen pants with sandals and still got laid but when i was skinny i could never pull it off and make it work for me.

I could be more physical sooner with the girls like ass or boob grabbing and get away with it because of the strong initial attraction they had to my muscles. The first time i tried that as a skinny guy i got slapped and throw out of the club.

The muscular guys i meet aren't very good at game in general. They have poor frame control and their confidence is strongly tied to their physique. They also won't accept game advice from a skinny guy who sees the reason why they aren't having success.

Certain muscular guys don't like to approach because they don't want to get rejected. So it's not uncommon for them to hit girls a few points lower than them on the regular and have the few super hot girls thrown in there randomly. I was like this years ago and back then i really didn't understand it.

There is a point of diminishing returns with basing your game solely on looks. Like stated else where on this thread you're be able to pick up girls easily in night venues and events that serve alcohol. However, doing daytime approaches become significantly more difficult when part of your game relies on the girl consuming enough alcohol to lower her inhibitions to throw herself at you.

Increased attention from homosexual males.
I think the amount of unabashed sexual attention you get from gay men is directly correlated to how good looking you are in general.
I've been going to the same tailor for a few years starting around 170lbs till now. The tailor has a gay male and a straight female that work there as well.
There girl would be checking me out simply because i was sharply dressed but i didn't think it was anything of note because it was "baseline" for me. The gay dude was pleasant but never checked me out. There was a 4 month gap and when i came back i was just under 200lbs and both of there eye fell out of their heads when i walked in with w t-shirt on.

I've experimented with old pictures of myself in online dating while i dress extremely well in my older skinnier photos the muscular version of me gets far more interest from girls. The muscular version is wearing basic clothes ie. jeans, t-shirt, tank tops and board shorts.

You can have crappy logistics and still get the bang being a buff guy, but as some as soon the girl hears you're a 20 minute cab ride away you can't have made any errors in your game up until that point.


In conclusion,
Learning game can help you greatly if you're lacking physical size. Dressing well, being interesting and having tight logistics are always great to have.
However, getting physically muscular helps your notch count more than all of those combined.
Every little bit helps you overall but some help you more than others and have a certain level of durability compared to other.

Post: #55

^ Don't agree. I'm 6'4" 200lbs visible abs.

Logisitcs, posture, vocal tone, dominating eye contact, fearless approaching have all helped more than muscles ever have.

Now if you have an 8+ face that's completely different. Those guys never need to work.

I'd rather be 5'9" 160lbs with 8+ face looks than what I am now.

If I was magically bumped up to 220lbs I doubt my options would change much.

Post: #56

(09-01-2014 02:37 PM)tbone46 Wrote:  This thread has devolved into a circle jerk of self-limiting beliefs

7-day suspension.

You can disagree without insulting the membership.

Post: #57

(09-01-2014 02:54 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

(09-01-2014 12:15 AM)Jestx Wrote:  Yesterday I went out with my good looking friend (8+ guy). We were late and very last in line for a bar, and he was displaying horrible body language while we were waiting. Arms crossed, looking really uptight, constantly fidgeting with his hair/face. I mentioned this earlier in the night to him, saying he was coming off really insecure. Some pretty girl comes up to him and makes fun of his "seriousness" and literally told him to his face he had poor body language (duh).

He banged her that night. If any average looking guy would have acted in his manner, she doesn't even look his way.

Thread winner.

If you ever thought you were good looking or even think now after "building yourself" that you're now good-looking, it is not remotely close to true unless you experience what happened in this quote.

I have seen it happen with my male 8+ friends. My game would destroy theirs, this stuff just doesn't happen to me. And I am a 7.0 in facial looks etc.. and 6'4".

8+ males it is a different universe. They can also be doormat betas in relationships with hot girls and still get laid all the time without the girl straying. They just don't need much game all around in any context.

Their game is getting eye fucked everywhere they go which keeps their bitch in check even if she wears the pants otherwise. She knows she is depreciating and he will be a handsome guy for decades.

You are both spot on. Being 8+ is instant value.

I'd like to say I have to game just as hard as an average guy, but the truth is that I don't. I actually do better when I use traditional game less.

As a good looking guy you are automatically going to have more girls orbiting around you. A lot of my bangs come because girls make it ridiculously easy for me.

I think that good looking guys still need game though. There are some challenges that come with it, but this isn't the forum for that.

Post: #58

So would you guys say looks is more important than game?

Post: #59

(09-02-2014 11:45 AM)Borealis Wrote:  So would you guys say looks is more important than game?

Let's not even go down this route.

Post: #60

I can speak from experience, as I was always very good looking and tall, standing at 6 foot 5. But, I was very awkward growing up and my social skills were terrible. I was physically attractive and, although people would tell me that, I wouldn't believe it and it didn't affect my confidence in the slightest.

For the first three months of game my results were terrible. Very few women, even at the bottom of the SMV scale, will put up with a complete lack of game. In the tribal days, associating with a beta male, no matter how pretty, would have meant death by lack of protection.

A very good looking man with no game can get a lay under one circumstance only: The girl is drunk in a nightclub and she has consciously decided she wants to fuck a guy that night. In that case she will operate on visuals alone and may sometimes even lead the escalation, as happened a couple times in my younger days. She will, of course, never call you back.

When you are physically attractive, you get more smiles and positive responses upon approach. More girls will stop and listen to what you have to say, but from there on it is all down to your game. In my beginner days the standard set was a warm smile, a minute or so of awkward conversation followed by the girl running off. A good looking man with no game does very poorly and will get a fuck every now and then on luck alone. Looks are simply a supplement that will marginally increase your percentages IF you have game. Game is the foundation, looks are the cherry on top that might add a lay or two.

Game is ridiculously important. Without it, it is impossible to get consistent lays, unless you are an A-list celebrity.

Post: #61

eh, I am still on the fence. If a guy is an 8 in look and has a harem of 9s all pining for him, I figure he might have some decent game.

but for the most part, yeah, I am skeptical.

Post: #62

The issue is not so much do good looking dudes have game. The thing is taking advice from a handsome guy when you are average wont help. They do not have to worry about decoding iois, preselection,social proof,last minute resistance,kino (girls kino them).Girls want to bang before the guy opens his mouth.

Post: #63

(09-02-2014 12:16 PM)BadgerHut Wrote:  

(09-02-2014 11:45 AM)Borealis Wrote:  So would you guys say looks is more important than game?

Let's not even go down this route.

I'm guessing it's very controversial.

Post: #64

(09-02-2014 02:15 PM)Borealis Wrote:  

(09-02-2014 12:16 PM)BadgerHut Wrote:  

(09-02-2014 11:45 AM)Borealis Wrote:  So would you guys say looks is more important than game?

Let's not even go down this route.

I'm guessing it's very controversial.

What is the point of discussing it? You can't control it, it is genetics. Now if you want to discuss staying in shape, hair, clothing. That is something controllable that can be done through effort. I think that is why some feel that discussing looks has no value here. What can you do about your genetics?

Post: #65

(09-02-2014 02:15 PM)Borealis Wrote:  

(09-02-2014 12:16 PM)BadgerHut Wrote:  

(09-02-2014 11:45 AM)Borealis Wrote:  So would you guys say looks is more important than game?

Let's not even go down this route.

I'm guessing it's very controversial.

Not in the slightest, it's more like anyone who doesn't think the answer is "both" is deeply mistaken. Also we've had the discussion many times.

I'm not calling you a troll, but it's a very typical troll topic to throw out a false dichotomy like "what's more important, game or <looks/money/status>?" and get everyone ramped up into a silly series of thought experiments like "if a fat short guy has great game, will he get better girls than a hot guy who is super beta?" that do nothing to further people's understanding of the field.

Post: #66

(09-02-2014 11:45 AM)Borealis Wrote:  So would you guys say looks is more important than game?

If you could reconstruct your face without flaw to a 8-9+ you have a strong case in my thinking.

Other than that no. Most guys with work can get to an overall 6.5-7.0 in appearance if not 7.5 by pulling all the tricks out of the bag, but not an 8+ you simply can't without a very handsome face to begin with.

Post: #67

(09-02-2014 12:34 PM)OnlyMarryInTajikistan Wrote:  I can speak from experience, as I was always very good looking...

I really don't want to be rude, but I have seen my male 8+ (face) friends be shy, awkward, not know a thing.

8+ is pretty rare, maybe 10-15 guys in an average high school graduating class of 500ish total students is what I consider.

Hot girls would plan birthdays for (that weren't dating them the girls were trying to get in the guy's pants), show up at their house randomly, chase them to their dorm room.

If you could not get low SMV interested in you, you are vastly over-rating your looks or you simply were in a complete Pussy Hell.

Post: #68

I have a very good looking friend who resembles James Dean, minus the bad boy's flair. He's actually quite charming with the ladies, but I suspect it's from having so many interactions / auditions over the years. I've never seen him approach anyone, but he's always approached whenever he's out. Some examples:

Club promo girls (you know how hot they are) stop him on the street, just randomly touch his face and body and give him their numbers (and NOT the club promo flyers lol).

Girls slyly walk past our table and drop their numbers in front of him, to avoid being seen by their boyfriends. Zero conversation needed, just a quick exchange of eye contacts.

Girls come up and flat out tell him (without any prior exchange whatsoever): "I live just a block away, you gotta come home with me handsome"

A mob of drunk girls surround and damn near rape him on the train. I actually opened the girls but as soon as they saw him, I became invisible.

And my favourite: a MILF in my social circle has two super hot daughters who are models, and also a very Christian family (apparently). They are generally polite but most men wouldn't get a word or two out of those girls. The mother also guards them tightly, so everyone just gives up on approaching them. My friend shows up, and after about 2 mins of conversation with the mother, she told him: "you must meet my daughters; you can date any of them, or both if you want!"

Do you think a guy like that needs TXT game or whatever game we discuss here 24/7? The only game he requires is to make sure his dick stays hard.

Guys like him live in a fantasy world compared to ours.

Post: #69

On the other hand, women are weird about what they like. I've known tall, good-looking, successful guys who cannot get a date. So it comes down to more than looks.

I am friends with one of these guys now -- a virgin at 33. I met him in a Facebook music group where he was whining about women. He was clearly smart, very in-shape, and good looking. So my first PM to him was "How tall are you?" "6'3." WTF?

I directed him to the manosphere and tried to tell him about stuff we talk about here. But he was put off by Roissy's "obnoxiousness" and "arrogance." I tried explaining that's what's fun about it -- like rap music or David Lee Roth -- and he should read on anyway. No dice. It's been two years and he's still complaining about being "stood up" by women.

So looks do matter, but they're not a magic potion. You have to have *some* game, or women run. What's the saying? "Looks get you in the door, but personality keeps you in the room." You're not getting laid unless she stays in the room at least an hour.

Post: #70

^^ Hah yes this is what I'm talking about.

A ripped physique and a $3k Custom Suit etc... will not match the guys with these faces it is just life.

You are not 8+ if you don't have these things happen to you all the time.

This is why we put in the approaches and find fishbowls. Even AFTER we optimize our looks and style.

Post: #71

To those who are arguing about male attractiveness just think of this

To see what women consider an 8+ male all you have to do is examine what type of girls the guy is rolling with. If the girls are not 8+ you're definitely not(assuming no other glaring problems). Attractive guys are easy to spot because they always have a hot girl around them.

Every normal 8+ women(no fame/millions) I've seen today walking alongside a normal guy(who is 8+) has had these traits

Very wide broad shoulders
At least 6'2" and up. I've noticed this is one is oddly specific. For some reason once you hit 6'2" you're way more noticeable. I rarely see super hot girls with guys even at 6' or 5'11"
Around 180-220 lbs
Very aesthetic face which means: square jawline, excellent eyebrows, defined cheekboned, peircing eyes, good facial symmetry, a little stubble, perfectly shaped nose
Generally lighter skined

I've talked to these guys or overheard them. The game they run is is simply dont fuck up game. They generally let the girl do most of the talking as she not so subtly giggles and paws at him. They don't try too hard with banter or wit. As long as they don't say something ridiculously stupid they're getting laid. The woman will facilitate this happening. It's reverse what we do. She'll talk to him, txt him, and facilitate the logistics of the bang. Watching a woman speaking with a really attractive man is impressive. The entire dynamic is switched.

Post: #72

(09-02-2014 08:41 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

(09-02-2014 12:34 PM)OnlyMarryInTajikistan Wrote:  I can speak from experience, as I was always very good looking...

I really don't want to be rude, but I have seen my male 8+ (face) friends be shy, awkward, not know a thing.

8+ is pretty rare, maybe 10-15 guys in an average high school graduating class of 500ish total students is what I consider.

Hot girls would plan birthdays for (that weren't dating them the girls were trying to get in the guy's pants), show up at their house randomly, chase them to their dorm room.

If you could not get low SMV interested in you, you are vastly over-rating your looks or you simply were in a complete Pussy Hell.

This right here. On the money. Girls are hella forward with you if you're strikingly attractive. A model guy (tall white guy) i was friends with constantly had pussy falling out of the sky. He's a bit of a stoner and naturally aloof. So a lot of these girls went unnoticed by him. Everywhere we went. Everywhere. Girls would grab his hands and put them on their ass and boobs. Grab his phone and put their numbers in it, they'd be shocked to see his contact list was full from all the other girl numbers he had.

I think any guy with an average face can go up a point or 2 with clothes and a good physique.
Then there's plastic surgery to enhance the jaw line, forehead, nose and cheeks.

This is not unlike girls who lose a large amount of weight and go up 4 points. Their face hasn't changed structurally just the layers of fat are gone.
I'd recommend plastic surgery for any guy or girl with a janky nose. It'll hurt you more than you think. Just like random moles or birth marks on the face. Sometimes it can help you but in most cases it's hurting you chances.

There should be a thread of the crazy thirsty shits girls have done for a guy.

Post: #73

Like if you showed guys in the 1960s how much effort guys put into the weight room, diet, and supps today that DON'T get paid to play sports (ludicrous haha)...

In another 20-30 years from now nanotech surgery and genetic modifications will be the rage.

$ will destroy game utterly in 30 years.

You will be able to buy 9+ looks without the plastic surgery clown face.

The notion to accept what you were born with and do your best with it will be scoffed at.

Our "game history" will be a foot note that spanned a few decades in the future of these modifications, sex robots, and virtual realities.

Post: #74

Moving towards some actionable advice and inspiration, one of the biggest things guys can do to improve their facial features is dial their body fat down even tighter.

Here's 50 different face transformations from losing fat, mostly guys, but some of the girls are a striking difference too:

http://i.imgur.com/Z67zk.jpg

Post: #75

One thing worth noting is that girls aren't the only ones who think they're more attractive then they actually are, most guys think they're above average when of course that's impossible.

If you want to know how attractive you are using the 10 scale (atleast in the Anglo West), you are 1 point above the quality of girls you don't have to work much for to bang, e.g don't fuck up game.

The typical guy (yes that probably means you) is a 5 who can only fuck 4's and below with minimal effort.

To maximize accuracy I'd go with the conservative estimate, since all guys have a natural tendency to overstimate the looks of themselves and the girls they attract. If you think you can run don't fuck up game on 5-5.5's, it's really 5's and your a 6.