Post: #1

If you were educated in the U.S. then you, like me, probably never learned much about WWII's Eastern Front.

Instead you were taught about the strength of the US and British forces, and how, without the West coming to Europe to save the day, "we'd all be speaking German right now." You learned a lot about the Pacific battles, the western front, and the death camps. But when it comes to the Soviet's, very little was covered.

Dan Carlin's podcast "Ghosts of the Ostfront" gives a much needed supplement to anyones WWII knowledge by taking an in depth look at the German & Soviet battles on the eastern front. Personally, I had no idea just how truly enormous the scale of those battles were, and how they dwarf almost everything else that happened between 1939-1945.

For those that don't know Dan Carlin, he essentially writes well researched books, narrates them, then calls them podcasts. Ghosts of the Ostfront is broken down into 4 ninety minute episodes, and I highly recommend giving them a listen.

You can buy the MP3's for a few bucks on his site: http://dancarlin.com/dccart/index.php?ma...cts_id=175

Here is a preview:

Post: #2

Yeah. The Western fronts role in defeating Germany are highly overrated.

Post: #3

I'm a big fan of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History Series. In fact, his Ghosts of the Ostfront episodes are what got me into listening all his other history podcasts. I knew the Eastern Front was brutal, but Carlin's retelling of the story magnifies the utter ruthlessness, misery, and hopelessness that the soldiers on both sides felt. I highly recommend it as well.

In related news, I can't wait for Carlin to release the next episode in his series on World War I.

Post: #4

My understanding was that Germany was finally brought down by Russia entering Berlin, with Stalingrad being the 'showdown' that precipitated this. I'd say that if Germany had won in Stalingrad, 'we'd be speaking German' etc.
Of course the fact that Germany needed to maintain forces in Africa and West Europe meant those resources were not available to the eastern front.

Post: #5

(08-16-2014 02:57 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  My understanding was that Germany was finally brought down by Russia entering Berlin, with Stalingrad being the 'showdown' that precipitated this. I'd say that if Germany had won in Stalingrad, 'we'd be speaking German' etc.
Of course the fact that Germany needed to maintain forces in Africa and West Europe meant those resources were not available to the eastern front.

Regardless of what happened at Stalingrad, Fortress America was (and is) virtually impregnable. Not that we needed it, but we also had Canada on our side, and considering Nazi racial theories it's impossible Mexico would have been even a passive ally.

I think what would have happened is the Third Reich would eventually have collapsed, just like the U.S.S.R. did. The Nazis were imbeciles. People think the Nazis were efficient, but this is because most people fail to make the distinction between Nazis and the German people themselves. The german people are hard working folk, but we have to differentiate between them and the Nazis, who mismanaged Germany into a smoldering pile of ashes. The expulsion of some of Germany's greatest minds in the form of Jewish scientists and other voluntary or involuntary enemies of the Nazi regime, taking actions that culminated in war against the British Empire, the Americans, the French, and the Russians, together?

The Nazis would have mismanaged themselves to the ground. When the last jewish, homosexual, gypsy, political opponent, and POW slaves died in the labor camps, the regime would simply have created "political opponents" out of regular German folk more and more, just like the U.S.S.R. did, to feed the forced labor camps, cannibalizing Germany itself.

Post: #6

For a 'micro' view of the Battle oF Stalingrad I also recommend Sepp Allerberger's book Sniper on the Eastern Front. Terrific account.

Post: #7

(08-16-2014 02:30 PM)Earl Grey Wrote:  In related news, I can't wait for Carlin to release the next episode in his series on World War I.

Agreed. I enjoy his libertarian political podcasts (Common Sense), but LOVE Hardcore History. He is killing it with the first three episodes of WW1

(08-16-2014 02:57 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I'd say that if Germany had won in Stalingrad, 'we'd be speaking German' etc.

It is always tempting to point to a dramatic 'if this had gone differently, history would be different'. Personally I try to avoid it, especially as it relates to a multi-year, multi-front conflict. No single event won the war for the Allies, no single event lost it for the Axis.

Post: #8

Another way to put the Eastern Front in perspective is this: On the Western Front after D-Day, the Allies faced ~60 German divisions between them and Germany. On the Eastern Front, the Soviets faced 180+.

Post: #9

It would be interesting to hear what Winston Churchill would say about the conflict going on today in Europe.

Post: #10

If Churchill was alive today, he'd take one look at Britain and Europe, let out a 'What the FUCK!?', and ask to return to his grave.

Post: #11

Ghosts of the Ostfront is the only audio/digital property in recent memory that I actually paid for and legit downloaded from the site.

Well worth it. It's very cheap and is many hours long and extremely insightful.

Post: #12

I learned more about the Eastern front by playing Call of Duty than I did from school. Stalingrad was absolutely brutal, but don't forget about Kursk, for the largest armored engagement of all time.

Post: #13

(08-16-2014 04:51 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(08-16-2014 02:57 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  My understanding was that Germany was finally brought down by Russia entering Berlin, with Stalingrad being the 'showdown' that precipitated this. I'd say that if Germany had won in Stalingrad, 'we'd be speaking German' etc.
Of course the fact that Germany needed to maintain forces in Africa and West Europe meant those resources were not available to the eastern front.

Regardless of what happened at Stalingrad, Fortress America was (and is) virtually impregnable. Not that we needed it, but we also had Canada on our side, and considering Nazi racial theories it's impossible Mexico would have been even a passive ally.

I think what would have happened is the Third Reich would eventually have collapsed, just like the U.S.S.R. did. The Nazis were imbeciles. People think the Nazis were efficient, but this is because most people fail to make the distinction between Nazis and the German people themselves. The german people are hard working folk, but we have to differentiate between them and the Nazis, who mismanaged Germany into a smoldering pile of ashes. The expulsion of some of Germany's greatest minds in the form of Jewish scientists and other voluntary or involuntary enemies of the Nazi regime, taking actions that culminated in war against the British Empire, the Americans, the French, and the Russians, together?

The Nazis would have mismanaged themselves to the ground. When the last jewish, homosexual, gypsy, political opponent, and POW slaves died in the labor camps, the regime would simply have created "political opponents" out of regular German folk more and more, just like the U.S.S.R. did, to feed the forced labor camps, cannibalizing Germany itself.

I disagree. I'm no expert, and my information might not be 100% accurate, but this was a much more complicated situation than you are considering.

Germany was kind of forced into World War 2. They sort of honorably ended World War 1 without actually being defeated, and then got absolutely taken advantage of by the conditions created by the Treaty of Versailles. They had huge amounts of land taken from them and were put into a reparations/debt situation that was absolutely oppressive and impossible to come back from etc.

All of the old colonial powers and basically everyone on the European continent was in fear of a successful Germany. All did their best to keep Germany down. Let's not forget that the Jewish people, who at that time and still do, control the banking/financial industry, and were also the creators and pushers of communism, were internationally trying to oppress Germany long before World War 2 ever began. And Germany was very welcoming to the Jewish people and the Jewish people lived extremely well and equal in German society. This is an impressive fact considering the Jewish people had been driven out of nearly every land they've settled in. Throughout history, this has been what has happened to them. So, when this war began, just as America feared the Japanese and had to act defensively for security reasons (by putting them in camps etc), Germany also feared the Jewish people and contained those in camps for security reasons. Germany also began encouraging them to leave directly prior to the war beginning etc. And don't paint me as some antisemite etc because that is not the case. I am just trying to tell a more informative and fairer side of this issue. But, I don't believe in this "Germany was hell bent on killing every Jewish person on the planet" nonsense.

Getting back to the topic, there was all kinds of violence on the Polish border or former Germany territory that had ethnic Germans living there. The Polish were backed by everyone and encouraged to bait Germany into confronting this violence.

Germany was then declared war on by nearly everyone. I don't believe Germany wanted a war, especially with England, who the Germans tried very hard to negotiate with (but were met with refusal).

The Germans then began their operations, in my mind, as more of an offensive to maintain a proper defense.

The Germans also knew that Stalin and the Russians were preparing for an invasion of Europe, specifically an attack on Germany. The Russian's motivations were to conquer territory and spread their communism etc. And with Russia's natural resources, population, industrial growth/capability etc, they would soon be impossible for the Germans to defeat. Therefore the Germans decided to go on the offensive to prevent a Russian conquering of Europe etc.

I don't really think the Germans had any other options.

Now of course, the Germans felt screwed by what happened after World War 1 and wanted their territories back. And it's understandable. If someone came and stole all your shit and oppressed you, you would have an interest in getting it back.

Where Germany screwed up was with their stubbornness. This fighting to the last man crap and trying to hold onto battlefield gains at all costs despite the extreme tactical risks, was one thing that was senseless and did them in.

But I read a very interesting book and I can't remember the title, but it was about all the ways Germany lost the war or could have won the war. It was very interesting. Actually fascinating that despite all the opposition against them and few resources there were still many ways they could have won the war.

Had Germany of won the war, I think everything would have been fine. I don't think we'd all be speaking German or that Europe would be destroyed etc. There wouldn't have been a Cold War and I think that the relationships with the old colonial powers would have been productive and peaceful. I think the third Reich would not have collapsed. It would have been economically successful and the German people would have been content.

I don't think there'd be everlasting war. War takes its toll and in the end, and I believe Germany just wanted their land back and wanted to be free of the oppression from their neighbors. There may have been some additional land taken etc but nothing too crazy.

Remember, the winners write the history. And there's a lot of propaganda and negative BS told about the losers, who in this case were the Germans. I've studied both sides of this fascinating period of history, and have come to believe that what we've been told and sold by our media, teachers, and everyone else, is extremely one sided and basically untruthful in most instances.

But going back to the main topic, the Eastern front was brutal. Urban warfare especially is the worst of the worst. Fighting where civilian populations live, fighting house to house, snipers, booby traps, horrible logistics etc.......urban warfare is hell. As as someone who has experience fighting in urban environments, I know exactly what this is about. Germany should have avoided these battles and went straight for Moscow instead of getting too confident and making decisions to conquer cities purely for the symbolic and psychological benefits of a victory, like the impact of conquering STALINgrad would have had.

Germany simply got too confident and some of the higher ups in the Reich, like Hitler, took some battles and strategies too personally.

But thanks to the original poster for the content provided. I'm definitely going to check it out.

Post: #14

^ Couldn't have said it better. Germany gets all the blame. Russians were the real bastards.
Imagine the scenario that Russians had attacked first and Germany hadn't a strong army to fight them.

The west have always allowed Russians to do what they want.
Without German support my country would have become a USSR republic.
Both in 1918,1939 and 1944.

Scandinavia turned their back on us, same as Britain and France and USA.
The only availble help was Germany. Fucking bastards. But even Germany let Stalin do what he wanted with us in 1939. Britain and USA even declared war on us later. Lol.

Like Churchill said in 1945 after defeating Germany.
" It looks like we've butchered the wrong pig"

Post: #15

To get back on the original topic - by far most of the fighting and dying was on the Eastern Front. It was a War of Annihilation.

That said, the entire Soviet logistics effort was made possible by the US.

Without American trucks, railroad-tracks, locomotives, boots and spam the Russians would've had a much tougher time of it. Major Soviet offensives wouldn't be able to carry out the Soviet tactic of deep penetration, and their advance would've been far slower.

On the other hand, the Western Allies believed they had to give all this stuff to Stalin to keep those 150 German divisions in the East. Stalin was interested in a cease-fire with Hitler all the way to early/mid-1943, but by then he'd realized Roosevelt was a gullible fool and the Western Allies were prepared to sacrifice Eastern and Central Europe to defeat Hitler - an odd calculation given the original reason for going to war.