Post: #1

I'd heard of this book occasionally as one of the pre-internet classics on picking up women, and was curious enough to pick up a copy. It was written in the late 80s, and although has been updated a couple of times since, it's still a book from an older era. Is it still useful and relevant in 2014? I think so – I learned more than a few things, but even more than that, it was refreshing to read a different attitude and a different voice from what is usually found in manosphere circles.

The author was divorced in the 1980s in his mid-30s, and went on to have relationships with a number of young women up until at least his mid-50s. (A postscript in the edition I have indicates that he eventually married a 19-year old when he was 53). There is no doubt that this guy is real and walked the walk as well as talking the talk. He shares deeply his personal experiences, the times he felt deep love and connection with his lovers, as well as his heartbreak.

I was impressed by the way he talked frankly about sex and lust, as well as the genuine empathy and love for women which has made him a successful ladies' man. At times in the modern manosphere, I feel this balance is lost, and men try too hard not to be vulnerable, thus losing touch with some of the deepest experiences that are possible. R. Don Steele's no-nonsense, at times vulgar prose shows that an old-school, masculine and indeed womanising American can still pay his respects to the wonder of the feminine and the richness of love.

Because R. Don Steele is, in the end, a romantic, he does not advise on how to score one night stands, but aims at “affairs”, rich experiences which may last from weeks to years. The book gives practical advice on how to achieve this, going from sorting out your style and appearance, to meeting women, talking to them, dating them, and getting them into bed, all with the assumption that the target women are aged at least 15-20 years younger.

He goes into great detail on the difference between women of various ages, and shows a brilliant understanding of women's minds. The best salesmen say you need to get into the mind of your customers and understand their perspective, and I think he succeeds in that. He reminds the reader of the turmoil and rapid pace of change of a 20 year old woman's life, and then shows exactly how an older, mature man can offer her something valuable.

I haven't focused on some of the concrete tips, for dressing, style, what to say and what not to say, which are given in the book. Some of the tips are excellent, some of them dated. It should be remembered that at that time there were no PUA videos on YouTube, no ebooks giving dating tips, no forums. It was all just trial and error, learning from experience, and word of mouth. So with that in mind there are some things I agree with and some that I don't. He's not big on what we would call daygame, preferring to meet women from warm approaches at social gatherings and at work. That last one goes against most current advice, and perhaps would not be advisable in the contemporary climate. A 45 year-old man having an affair with a 19 year-old at his company, or even worse, trying to, might not be a good idea.

What I got out of this book was his slow-burning approach, preferring to unhurriedly advance his seductions, like a man with options, and his desire to have a genuine connection with women. This book aims to steer older men away from the trap of being seen as a horny old creep, by improving yourself, going under the radar, and instead of trying to compete with young men on their own terms, giving women something they have not experienced before - the affection, stability and sexual prowess of a mature, alpha male.

I would recommend this book for any man who wants to date women considerably younger than himself. Some things have changed since the book was written, but overall the approach and much of the specific advice remains sound.

I'm not affiliated with the author in any way.

Post: #2

I haven't read the book but have read lengthy excerpts and have also read interviews of Steele.

Things he stresses:
1) Don't try to pass yourself off as young, or compete directly with young men on their turf (see #2 below). You are looking for the minority of girls that would consider dating a middle-aged man.

2) Avoid clubs/bars, as they are the province of the young bucks and are (from a girl's perspective) more for attention whoring than meeting men. Avoid any other venue where you would be regarded as "creepy."

3) Since cold approaches by a middle-aged man to a young lady will usually backfire, it's important to put yourself in situations where the initial contact happens organically, such as media-related curricula at community college, e.g., Acting 101.

4) Attraction is triggered when you are the top dog or center of attention, regardless of context. The podium effect, for example.

Steele (John White) is physically imposing with a persona to match, but he's an example of how soft "balls of steel" can be for a man without capital (when Ross Jeffries sued White, White couldn't afford a lawyer).

Post: #3

Sounds interesting. I like to romance my birds too. You're right that vulnerability is often frowned on in the men's dating niche, and a lot of aspiring players are missing out on the pleasures of emotional connections as a result

Sharing that kind of bond with a female doesn't mean you have to stay with her for the rest of your life or hand over your ballsack.

Will read.

EDIT: Damn't - no kindle version...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #4

(08-08-2014 01:04 AM)RawGod Wrote:  What I got out of this book was his slow-burning approach, preferring to unhurriedly advance his seductions, like a man with options, and his desire to have a genuine connection with women. ...giving women something they have not experienced before - the affection, stability and sexual prowess of a mature, alpha male.

I would recommend this book for any man who wants to date women considerably younger than himself. Some things have changed since the book was written, but overall the approach and much of the specific advice remains sound.

I would say this is standard advice for older guys for sure! And I always thought part of push/pull with college girls was showing some affections & vulnerability once you've made a real connection...

It's like the confidence game - do I get your confidence first? No, I give you my confidence, only then do you let your defenses down and trust me.

Frankly, based on your frame and conversation with someone 20+ years younger, your prowess should almost always be assumed by them. That's never even come up for me.

Post: #5

I'm on the last chapter and absolutely amazed at how much I learned. Just about everything in here is Red Pill all the way. He makes no apologies, no excuses, for securing the notch, ONS or LTR, whichever you're after, and lays out the battle plan with a sense of humor that'll have you in stitches. I was worried after I saw when this was written but by the time I finished, those worries evaporated. It's just as powerful in 2014 as it was in the early nineties. With this and Day Bang (half done with that one) you can be unstoppable if you choose to be. I plan on reading it again and again and doing massive amounts of approaches (thanks Giovonny!) implementing everything I learned.

And why oh why isn't there a Kindle version! Argh! My paperback, which I bought used, is already getting dog-eared. It will be in shreds by the end of the year.

Post: #6

What does he think of lying about your age? Since he's looking for a real connection that could last some time, does he mention his thoughts on giving girls your real age? Even though I'm 38, whenever I ask young chics(like under 25) to guess my age they always say about 28. On Tinder I put my age as 29.

I actually hate lying about my age, because now I have to be cautious about everything I say that might blow my cover. I was on a date with a 22 year old early this year and mentioned some song I didn't even think was that old and she was like, "wait, how old did you say you are? I never heard of that music." Then another chic who is 24 almost called me out when I told I haven't eaten Taco Bell in over a decade. She then started asking how old I was since she was 14 a decade ago. Then I have to be careful about mentioning when I graduated from college and all that shit and constantly be on guard about saying anything that will give me away. I'd like to focus on younger women who don't mind dating a guy 15 years older so I don't have the burden of lying.

Post: #7

(08-17-2014 12:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Then another chic who is 24 almost called me out when I told I haven't eaten Taco Bell in over a decade.

Post: #8

(08-17-2014 12:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  What does he think of lying about your age? Since he's looking for a real connection that could last some time, does he mention his thoughts on giving girls your real age? Even though I'm 38, whenever I ask young chics(like under 25) to guess my age they always say about 28. On Tinder I put my age as 29.

I actually hate lying about my age, because now I have to be cautious about everything I say that might blow my cover. I was on a date with a 22 year old early this year and mentioned some song I didn't even think was that old and she was like, "wait, how old did you say you are? I never heard of that music." Then another chic who is 24 almost called me out when I told I haven't eaten Taco Bell in over a decade. She then started asking how old I was since she was 14 a decade ago. Then I have to be careful about mentioning when I graduated from college and all that shit and constantly be on guard about saying anything that will give me away. I'd like to focus on younger women who don't mind dating a guy 15 years older so I don't have the burden of lying.

Yeah me too. Honestly it gets hard to keep track of the lies and half-truths. Kinda takes the fun out of it too and I often forget what I told X or Y girl. Plus I'm already fibbing a bit about my 'work' here in EE so all these things to keep track of start adding up.

Given how much women lie about their age, weight (e.g. SIFs) and other things and how much time I've wasted on dates with girls who are essentially stone cold lying online I have a hard time feeling bad though. It's play or get played mostly.

I'm also beginning to recognize that I'm in a sort of 'transitionary period' where I'm starting to be 20+ years older than a lot of the girls I date. In my late 30s and early 40s it was fine to be with 20-25 year olds before but now it seems that despite being in EE there's much more of a dichotomy given I'm getting (and looking) older. Sure I look (fairly) young for my age but I'm losing hair and going more grey and they know I'm not say 28-35 anymore now. I know it can still be done but the field of opportunity gets smaller for sure re girls who are open for 'daddy types' or older guys, even in EE where it's not frowned upon. Perhaps his 'slow burn' game and more focused, 'no-hurry' approach is something that naturally occurs as you age.

Although I'm still occasionally trolling bars and clubs in addition to day and night game and it's def tough to prioritize and I run into situations I never used to all the time. For example was at a club Sat night and struck up good rapport with a very pretty girl (8) who turned out to be 20 and a student and for me that's just a tougher road to slog now whereas 5-6 years ago it would have been no problem. I ejected after few minutes of light banter just because I was telling myself "you need to move on and approach other girls, this is probably a big waste of time and a very low probability, etc." just due to her age mostly. A few years ago I would have never thought or said that.

Anyway, interesting how this author seems to be pretty negative on 'cold approaching' for older guys - wonder if that is just his generation or applicable even today. In any case, it's something for me to watch/think about given I have been trying to switch to day game. My sense and actual experience is that he's right for the much younger crowd but once girls are say 27+ they are much more open and available, whereas the real youngsters who still have big social circles and less jaded outlook are not quite so open to it (I guess you could say that about women in general, depends on their situation I guess. Clearly I could not be all these 20-something girls I do here back home in the US, and/or would need to adjust my game a lot and be more surgical on my target selection (i.e. "Seeking Arrangement" type girls, more online game, work harder on social circle game (which for me is basically non-existant and has been for many years), etc.).

Definitely want to read this book.

Post: #9

^I have the opposite of this problem. The majority of the girls I fuck are my age, but all the rest are girls who are few older and out of college in the early stages of their careers. Unless they're really keen on me straight off the bat, being younger than them is a real issue. It's not easy making shit up about my fake corporate job on the fly. I've started saying I'm a postgrad student to them now, but making up shit about research is even harder... It gets messy telling different stories to different girls, then always forgetting who knows what. Being instantly disqualified by almost every girl mid-20's+ is a bitch too, which also hampers my venue selection. Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining, but I'd rather be 10 years older, than say 5 years younger.

Post: #10

(08-17-2014 12:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  I actually hate lying about my age, because now I have to be cautious about everything I say that might blow my cover.

Yeah I have my college diplomas at my pad, which have my graduation dates.

I say I don't have FB,but I could slip and have it up on my phone eor something. Then my HS graduation date is one there.

It's treacherous.

Post: #11

What's wrong with being honest? The oldest woman I've banged was 36 and I'm 21. I'd rather be honest and lose out on a bang than constantly having to lie and being on guard.

Post: #12

(08-17-2014 12:35 PM)Dusty Wrote:  

(08-17-2014 12:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  I actually hate lying about my age, because now I have to be cautious about everything I say that might blow my cover.

Yeah I have my college diplomas at my pad, which have my graduation dates.

I say I don't have FB,but I could slip and have it up on my phone eor something. Then my HS graduation date is one there.

It's treacherous.

Yeah FB especially can be treacherous. I have a lot of women ask me "are you on facebook" after I've gotten their numbers and just say I am but never use it. They can basically find out everything about your life on FB so I don't ever give it out unless it's some kind of LT thing and even then sparingly.

(08-17-2014 12:39 PM)game_ethic Wrote:  What's wrong with being honest? The oldest woman I've banged was 36 and I'm 21. I'd rather be honest and lose out on a bang than constantly having to lie and being on guard.

When you're 40+ come talk to me (us)

Seriously, there's no honor/intrigue for women in being totally honest. That to me is a very beta/herb thing to do, and I'd much rather stay in the game and get a shot at a bang than have a chick dwell on how old I am and/or disqualify me before the game even starts.

Generally I just ignore the question or make them guess then inevitably when it's lower I say 'yep.'

Post: #13

(08-17-2014 12:39 PM)game_ethic Wrote:  What's wrong with being honest? The oldest woman I've banged was 36 and I'm 21. I'd rather be honest and lose out on a bang than constantly having to lie and being on guard.

You cant compare banging older Western women with a 15 yr age gap to banging women 15yrs younger. Not even in the same universe of difficulty.

Never before in history have young women been brainwashed into believing that they should only date guys within about 3yrs of their age. Basically dudes that would be graduating high school or college when they were entering.

Also the effect of social networks is unprecedented and has exacerbated this problem. Social pressure and age shaming that should have ended in high school continues artificially as these networks keep younger girls permanently attached to their judgmental peer age group. Of course it gets better when u step outside the West but here it is a real issue. Sure there are some hot chicks in Merica that have no problem dating a dude 10yrs plus but its less than 25%.

Therefore why should you remain 100% honest about your age when it will immediately eliminate potential partners in a country already full of bad ratios and fatties?

Post: #14

(08-17-2014 04:05 AM)Akula Wrote:  Although I'm still occasionally trolling bars and clubs in addition to day and night game and it's def tough to prioritize and I run into situations I never used to all the time. For example was at a club Sat night and struck up good rapport with a very pretty girl (8) who turned out to be 20 and a student and for me that's just a tougher road to slog now whereas 5-6 years ago it would have been no problem. I ejected after few minutes of light banter just because I was telling myself "you need to move on and approach other girls, this is probably a big waste of time and a very low probability, etc." just due to her age mostly. A few years ago I would have never thought or said that.

Anyway, interesting how this author seems to be pretty negative on 'cold approaching' for older guys - wonder if that is just his generation or applicable even today. In any case, it's something for me to watch/think about given I have been trying to switch to day game. My sense and actual experience is that he's right for the much younger crowd but once girls are say 27+ they are much more open and available, whereas the real youngsters who still have big social circles and less jaded outlook are not quite so open to it (I guess you could say that about women in general, depends on their situation I guess. Clearly I could not be all these 20-something girls I do here back home in the US, and/or would need to adjust my game a lot and be more surgical on my target selection (i.e. "Seeking Arrangement" type girls, more online game, work harder on social circle game (which for me is basically non-existant and has been for many years), etc.).

Definitely want to read this book.

Your assessment of the situation agrees with mine. I'm 52 and I still do night game cold approaching , but I am selective about the venues and the girls. I only go to bars, lounges, restaurant bars and nightclubs that have a mixed age crowd so I know there will be a decent number of people in their 30, 40s, and 50s or older so I won't stick out.

I seldom approach a girl who looks younger than 27-28 because I feel like it's a waste of time and effort in that environment. I believe that a certain percentage say 30-40% of younger girls in their early to mid twenties simply aren't interested in older men, at least in the abstract. The remainder either are interested or might be interested but in the night environment they are under the watchful eyes of their friends and there is negative peer pressure, at least in the US.

But I know for a fact that some early to mid 20s girls are definitely open to mature men. I been out right approached in bars in the last 2-3 weeks by a 24 year old and another who might have been 26 and this is far from the first time. I get obvious looks regularly from that age group as well, but I know if I approached them in front of their friends it likely would not succeed.

I really think as you say that the mature man need to focus more on certain niches that take advantage of his strengths and avoid his weaknesses. Last night I got repeated texts and calls from a 20 year old wanting me to come meet her and her friend at a nightclub but I was with another girl and blew her off. I met the 20 year old through a sugar daddy ad; I've known her for maybe 8 months, met her for a quick drink a couple of times but haven't banged her yet. I've just been playing it cool which just makes her more interested. The sugar daddy angle-whether real or fake is one angle

Another is developing a niche or gimmick- either through work or a hobby in which you can display status and value and have young women look up to you as a leader, a mentor, a good connection, or just a cool older guy who is exciting.

Ive decided recently that I need to start doing daygame, which I've never done, because I think it might be a strong suit for the older player. The big advantage as I see it is that the girl is alone and therefore not subject to peer pressure so she can act on her own preferences as opposed to the judgement of her social group. Plus , bitch shields are lower and you have no danger of coming across as the sleazy old dude in the club. Rather you are a successful man just going about your day when you happened to encounter her. I know Giovanny has had great success at this; he's quite a bit younger than me but he's going after girls who are a lot younger than him so he's proven that daygame can overcome significant age differences.

Post: #15

Not a fan of this guy.

I remember reading this book nearly 15 years ago. The details elude me but the general impression I was left with was that he advocated practices that was WAY too passive. Like hanging around a girl forever and wait for her to give you a sign of interest.

Post: #16

I'm not near 35 yet, but I found a PDF of the book and uploaded it, so you guys on the lookout for it here it is:

http://www.4shared.com/office/tcHLaQIvba...-to-D.html

Post: #17

^^^ Jariel, that link requires you to download an executable file first, which is probably going to be ad/spyware.

(08-17-2014 12:35 PM)Dusty Wrote:  

(08-17-2014 12:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  I actually hate lying about my age, because now I have to be cautious about everything I say that might blow my cover.

Yeah I have my college diplomas at my pad, which have my graduation dates.

I say I don't have FB,but I could slip and have it up on my phone eor something. Then my HS graduation date is one there.

It's treacherous.

I've actually hidden all education info on my FB profile. It never has any use for anyone. You can set that stuff so that only you or only certain people can see it. The only thing you have to be careful about beyond that is travel pics. I first went to Europe in 2001 and have a pic somewhere buried in my photos of me in front of the Eiffel Tower. I don't know if the date is on it, but that would blow my cover if they dig through and find something like that. Some 21 year old chic I'm trying to mack on was 8 when that pic was taken, lol. Yeah, I try to keep my FB as age neutral as possible.

(08-17-2014 02:28 PM)MrXY Wrote:  Another is developing a niche or gimmick- either through work or a hobby in which you can display status and value and have young women look up to you as a leader, a mentor, a good connection, or just a cool older guy who is exciting.

I'd mentioned before a professor I used to have, who kind of looked like Tom Selleck with grey hair. I know he was killing it because he was one of the most popular teachers at the school and college chics absolutely loved the guy. I'd even seen a ex-student of his walk right in class and kiss him on the lips right in front of the whole class. Everyone knew he was married with a kid but he didn't give a fuck. He'd take students on trips to Mexico for research, everyone would learn but still have a blast. One girl I used to date told me the story about being hit on by him and how he was offering to massage her and a friend out on some boat offshore in Mexico. I'm sure he's done that many times and had it go well. Nobody looked at him as some creepy old man, he was considered that cool older guy that everyone wanted to be around, kind of like a Bill Clinton figure.

A good niche for an older guy would be learning how to sail if you live in a coastal city, and then bringing young chics out for a day of sailing. Having champagne and all that stuff. That is something no young guy would ever be able to offer. You'd instantly be the alpha male who controls the frame and showing them something they probably never experienced. And what girl wouldn't jump at the chance to go sailing? Another idea is getting a pilots license and offering to take chics up in the air. Once again, you are the alpha who owns the situation being behind the yoke and you'd be in control of something that's novel and exciting for them that no 22 year old will ever show them. If I'm 50+ and still in the game, that's probably where I'd be, not running around bars and clubs.

Post: #18

I read this book (I think) back in the late 1990's. I remember that one of his suggestions was crashing weddings. I found that to be kind of ridiculous.

I think his advice is good for men who have already had a lot of success with women and just want to get with younger ones. However, he doesn't seem to give any advice on how you build confidence if you have none. I haven't seen Steele, but I'm guessing that a lot of his "game" is just looks.

His attitude about ignoring boy friends is valid, and it was the first time I'd read something like that. I don't know if I would be nearly as impressed with it now.

He also got into a feud with Ross Jeffries back in the 1990's. I'm not sure why, but Steele has apparently used anti-Jewish slurs against Ross. I lost a lot of respect for him because of that.

http://www.pickup-lines.org/ross-jeffries/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/ja...ancampbell

Post: #19

(08-17-2014 04:39 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  ^^^ Jariel, that link requires you to download an executable file first, which is probably going to be ad/spyware.

No, it does not.

You do have to have an account with 4shared (free), but you don't have to download any exe's, otherwise I would not have posted it there.

Post: #20

It says link is not valid when I click on it.

(08-17-2014 02:45 PM)jariel Wrote:  I'm not near 35 yet, but I found a PDF of the book and uploaded it, so you guys on the lookout for it here it is:

http://www.4shared.com/office/tcHLaQIvba...-to-D.html

Post: #21

I tried it myself and it worked fine, I uploaded it to another site, pick where it says limited download, if that doesn't work, well...

http://speedy.sh/ynBhZ/77169969-R-Don-St...ver-35.pdf

Post: #22

(08-17-2014 07:05 PM)puckerman Wrote:  I read this book (I think) back in the late 1990's. I remember that one of his suggestions was crashing weddings. I found that to be kind of ridiculous.

I think his advice is good for men who have already had a lot of success with women and just want to get with younger ones. However, he doesn't seem to give any advice on how you build confidence if you have none. I haven't seen Steele, but I'm guessing that a lot of his "game" is just looks.

His attitude about ignoring boy friends is valid, and it was the first time I'd read something like that. I don't know if I would be nearly as impressed with it now.

He also got into a feud with Ross Jeffries back in the 1990's. I'm not sure why, but Steele has apparently used anti-Jewish slurs against Ross. I lost a lot of respect for him because of that.

http://www.pickup-lines.org/ross-jeffries/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/ja...ancampbell

I remember that. They had a viscious argument on the Internet and if I remember correctly it went to court and they agreed not to talk about each other. Don Steele said that he was Ross Jeffries mentor and they had a falling out when Jeffries felt he had developed a better system and Steele was over the hill.

Post: #23

I'm reading this now. I'm 38. had a date with a 20 year old last night. stick to my range of 20-26 pretty tightly, except for a few outliers. Some really good stuff in here. But its helpful to be advanced in the game to know what does and doesn't work for you out of what he suggests. The following is the most basic fundamental game advice ever but its worth repeating:

I. Thou shalt have a slim trim body
II. Thou shalt be well groomed
III. Thou shalt be dressed right
IV. Thou shalt smell good.
V. Thou shalt be relaxed and confident
VI. Thou shalt shake hands and smile
VII. Thou shalt talk at her level
VIII. Thou shalt radiate no lust
IX. Thou shalt laugh appropriately.
X. Thou shalt remain adult
XI. Thou shalt genuinely compliment, once.

"Verily, brother, woe be unto thee, if thou doest not obey the
first commandment. Thy present world and thy hereafter shalt
be inhabited with only fat, ball crushing divorcees of two score
years"

Post: #24

(08-19-2014 02:08 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  I'm reading this now. I'm 38. had a date with a 20 year old last night. stick to my range of 20-26 pretty tightly, except for a few outliers. Some really good stuff in here. But its helpful to be advanced in the game to know what does and doesn't work for you out of what he suggests. The following is the most basic fundamental game advice ever but its worth repeating:

I. Thou shalt have a slim trim body
II. Thou shalt be well groomed
III. Thou shalt be dressed right
IV. Thou shalt smell good.
V. Thou shalt be relaxed and confident
VI. Thou shalt shake hands and smile
VII. Thou shalt talk at her level
VIII. Thou shalt radiate no lust
IX. Thou shalt laugh appropriately.
X. Thou shalt remain adult
XI. Thou shalt genuinely compliment, once.

"Verily, brother, woe be unto thee, if thou doest not obey the
first commandment. Thy present world and thy hereafter shalt
be inhabited with only fat, ball crushing divorcees of two score
years"

I would change 'lust' to 'thirst' for number 8

Post: #25

(08-19-2014 02:08 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  I'm reading this now. I'm 38. had a date with a 20 year old last night. stick to my range of 20-26 pretty tightly, except for a few outliers. Some really good stuff in here. But its helpful to be advanced in the game to know what does and doesn't work for you out of what he suggests. The following is the most basic fundamental game advice ever but its worth repeating:

I. Thou shalt have a slim trim body


"Verily, brother, woe be unto thee, if thou doest not obey the
first commandment. Thy present world and thy hereafter shalt
be inhabited with only fat, ball crushing divorcees of two score
years"

He is absolutely right to put fitness as the first commandment and to emphasize how important it is. Nothing will take you out of the game with younger women more than having a middle aged paunch, and next to serious wealth, nothing will keep you in it better than having a flat belly and a decent level of muscularity