(05-06-2016 06:32 AM)cubanlinx Wrote:  "Plus without steroids you would never get an impressive physique even if you train at the most complete gym."

C'mon man, that's some bullshit defeatist talk and you know it. It'll take longer, but to say "never"? 7 years and you're golden, unless you're expecting to be walking around at 8% bodyfat for the better part of the year.

Depends what you define as impressive.

I remember I was in serious training mode a few years back, determined to get my absolute peak genetic muscular potential.

I had a collage of men's bodies I wanted to emulate on my wall for inspiration.

Then I came across the red pill for bodybuilding - nearly everybody with a impressive body is on steroids.

I looked through all the pictures I had and only found 2 out of 15 of the guys on there weren't on steroids (Bruce Lee and George St. Pierre).

Now that my goals are far more in line with reality for what's possible with drug-free bodybuilding, I'd say that you can get a great body naturally but bodies that truly impress me are always built with steroids.

^^^

I wouldn't bet your house on GSP not being on juice.

Its entirely possible to get yourself into the top 1% of men without steroids. All it takes is about 4 years of hard training and a decent diet. The reason most guys who've been "working out for years" still look average is because they're cheating on either the training, the diet, or both.

Steroids are only required for a) shortcuts or b) people who's body is their profession (models, athletes) who need to go from top 1% to top .01%.

A 17 inch arm cold, on a natural who is average height, at 6-8 % bodyfat is extremely rare (I've personally never seen it). Even a true 16 inch arm cold at that kind of bodyfat is pretty damn rare (obvious drug user Josef Rakich is around that). On a positive note, a 16 inch arm at that kind of bodyfat looks very impressive to anyone that hasn't been conditioned by pictures of steroid users.

Extremely rare it is, i've said that its possible, there is a maximum genetic potential muscle calculator at bodyrecomposition blog, and a page where he explains how he got to that calculator, and all the research behind it. Its pretty acurate, my maximum genetic potential for arms its something around 44 cm and i am 6'0 ft. You hardly see a dude walking around natural with more than 16 inch arms 6% because its fucking hard to get, and its hard to get for years, and as you get closer the harder it gets because the amount of free testosterone(the one that builds muscle) is getting smaller, simply because the more muscle you have more testosterone is used just to maintain it, so when a guy gets to his 16 inches hes close to his maximum potential, and see almost no (visible) gains anymore which prevents them to get motivated to go the extra mile required to get to his maximum potential (for some years). Or they just hit the juice and get big as motherfuckers..

(05-06-2016 01:33 PM)Valentine Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 06:32 AM)cubanlinx Wrote:  "Plus without steroids you would never get an impressive physique even if you train at the most complete gym."

C'mon man, that's some bullshit defeatist talk and you know it. It'll take longer, but to say "never"? 7 years and you're golden, unless you're expecting to be walking around at 8% bodyfat for the better part of the year.

Depends what you define as impressive.

I remember I was in serious training mode a few years back, determined to get my absolute peak genetic muscular potential.

I had a collage of men's bodies I wanted to emulate on my wall for inspiration.

Then I came across the red pill for bodybuilding - nearly everybody with a impressive body is on steroids.

I looked through all the pictures I had and only found 2 out of 15 of the guys on there weren't on steroids (Bruce Lee and George St. Pierre).

Now that my goals are far more in line with reality for what's possible with drug-free bodybuilding, I'd say that you can get a great body naturally but bodies that truly impress me are always built with steroids.

Who were the other guys on the wall?

(05-06-2016 01:33 PM)Valentine Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 06:32 AM)cubanlinx Wrote:  "Plus without steroids you would never get an impressive physique even if you train at the most complete gym."

C'mon man, that's some bullshit defeatist talk and you know it. It'll take longer, but to say "never"? 7 years and you're golden, unless you're expecting to be walking around at 8% bodyfat for the better part of the year.

Depends what you define as impressive.

I remember I was in serious training mode a few years back, determined to get my absolute peak genetic muscular potential.

I had a collage of men's bodies I wanted to emulate on my wall for inspiration.

Then I came across the red pill for bodybuilding - nearly everybody with a impressive body is on steroids.

I looked through all the pictures I had and only found 2 out of 15 of the guys on there weren't on steroids (Bruce Lee and George St. Pierre).

Now that my goals are far more in line with reality for what's possible with drug-free bodybuilding, I'd say that you can get a great body naturally but bodies that truly impress me are always built with steroids.

There are pre steroid lifters who put many geared up gym rats to absolute shame.

Steroids build muscle on their own and they also raise the ceiling for potential, but it's not like you can't get big without them.

This is one of those cases where, although what you're saying is probably true, it is a less toxic mentality to do your own thing than it is to constantly measure yourself against guys who both train for a living and get drugs to do some of their work for them (and take the guesswork out of dieting like that bodybuilder who eats nothing but Oreos).

On one hand I agree with what you're saying, but on the other hand it's best not to think too much about it and to train your ass off, or take steroids and stop complaining when you still don't measure up.

I just saw that the Hodgetwins came out with their own protein powder:

Fuck Out Da Whey

Available in Chocolate and Cinnamon Creampie

I'm dying.

Obsessing too much over natty gains eats you up. Consistency is the most valuable thing you can do. Train for somewhere between size and strength. Change it up occasionally. It's pretty simple. And if you have half a brain, you'll understand even if they aren't for you, steroids aren't the demon they're said to be.
Anybody read Nattyornot.com? That guy is pure vitriol. Not connected to our discussion, but man. I wonder what he's like to meet.

(05-06-2016 06:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 01:33 PM)Valentine Wrote:  I had a collage of men's bodies I wanted to emulate on my wall for inspiration.

Then I came across the red pill for bodybuilding - nearly everybody with a impressive body is on steroids.

I looked through all the pictures I had and only found 2 out of 15 of the guys on there weren't on steroids (Bruce Lee and George St. Pierre).

Who were the other guys on the wall?

Mostly Hollywood actors like Christian Bale and Taylor Lautner, as well as a bunch of bodybuilders like Zyzz.

(05-06-2016 07:46 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  There are pre steroid lifters who put many geared up gym rats to absolute shame.

Steroids build muscle on their own and they also raise the ceiling for potential, but it's not like you can't get big without them.

This is one of those cases where, although what you're saying is probably true, it is a less toxic mentality to do your own thing than it is to constantly measure yourself against guys who both train for a living and get drugs to do some of their work for them (and take the guesswork out of dieting like that bodybuilder who eats nothing but Oreos).

On one hand I agree with what you're saying, but on the other hand it's best not to think too much about it and to train your ass off, or take steroids and stop complaining when you still don't measure up.

Yeah there's no point in thinking much about it, for me it was just a period of being annoyed then having to adjust my goals one time.

I got reminded pretty quickly why i don't post that much anymore.

If you can't handle criticism then this probably isn't the type of community you should contribute in. Not trying to dog you but part of the entire ideology of this group of men hinges on the idea of seeking truth, questioning things, thinking freely, and being able to present ideas and criticize ideas.

Also, while being realistic and logical is the Red Pill way, being defeatist is not. Saying that essentially the only way to get pleasing results in the gym and in the mirror is to use gear is just silly and pessimistic.

George Leeman talks a lot about that sort of thing:

I don't mind the criticism and i wasn't referring to that.
Take a look at this worthless thread that lasted 28 pages https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-32580.html

That's what keeping away guys who have a ton of experience in weightlifting and life in general from threads like this, where newbies to both the forum and to fitness come here with unrealistic expectations still talking about supplements and who's natty or not 10 years late to the game.

That's like guys in the game section still talking about negs and calling out every other guy who doesn't give a fuck about a worthless discussion a game denialist.

I think it's commendable that you're so excited about your fitness journey but you should try to leave your ego out of it, when i talk about potential i'm not specifically referring to you. It's not surprising that every other guy that jumped at that part of my post hasn't been doing this for very long.

Anyway keep training hard and see what you can accomplish. Peace

Frankly, if you think you need steroids to make good progress (I'm not talking about looking like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman), you're a fucking loser.

I get sick of personal trainers who are skinny and not even in shape thinking they are qualified to give advice and talk shit because they have the 'qualification'. Aswell as the opposite, fat out of shape fitness instructors.

A personal trainer at my gym, he doesn't even look like he lifts at all and I don't think i've really ever seen him do a workout but he always tries to talk shit about what i'm doing at the gym even though i've achieved way more than he ever has fitness/gym wise. I'm just not 'qualified' in it.

First it was that I used primal blueprint/paleo type eating to lose alot of weight and about almost every program i've done even programs that are highly recommended and effective (e.g Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) and was like "I guarantee I could write something that is better".. yet he is little and skinny.

I've started doing HIT and got a program from one of the main guys in a skype session and was talking to this instructor about it and some of the concepts and he's like "that's dumb" blah blah. And in the end he goes 'it is what it is' and I just said "that's what people say when they have nothing" and he didn't say much after that.

I'd trust this guy who is a proper bodybuilder who gave me the program and trained under Mike Mentzer over this little, skinny gym instructor who i've barely seen do a workout in his life and if you seen him outside of the gym and didn't know you'd never think he had lifted a weight in his life.

Unfortunately this shit doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. I seriously seen an article yesterday "fitness tips from plus size fitness instructors".

Ok I decided to find it again for you guys... seriously.. look at their photos. They have ZERO right to be fitness instructors.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louise-gre...85338.html





The last one takes the cake.. the whole cake!

Well that's my rant for today.

(05-09-2016 01:53 AM)Dominance Wrote:  I get sick of personal trainers who are skinny and not even in shape thinking they are qualified to give advice and talk shit because they have the 'qualification'. Aswell as the opposite, fat out of shape fitness instructors.

A personal trainer at my gym, he doesn't even look like he lifts at all and I don't think i've really ever seen him do a workout but he always tries to talk shit about what i'm doing at the gym even though i've achieved way more than he ever has fitness/gym wise. I'm just not 'qualified' in it.

First it was that I used primal blueprint/paleo type eating to lose alot of weight and about almost every program i've done even programs that are highly recommended and effective (e.g Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) and was like "I guarantee I could write something that is better".. yet he is little and skinny.

I've started doing HIT and got a program from one of the main guys in a skype session and was talking to this instructor about it and some of the concepts and he's like "that's dumb" blah blah. And in the end he goes 'it is what it is' and I just said "that's what people say when they have nothing" and he didn't say much after that.

I'd trust this guy who is a proper bodybuilder who gave me the program and trained under Mike Mentzer over this little, skinny gym instructor who i've barely seen do a workout in his life and if you seen him outside of the gym and didn't know you'd never think he had lifted a weight in his life.

Unfortunately this shit doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. I seriously seen an article yesterday "fitness tips from plus size fitness instructors".

Ok I decided to find it again for you guys... seriously.. look at their photos. They have ZERO right to be fitness instructors.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louise-gre...85338.html



The last one takes the cake.. the whole cake!

Well that's my rant for today.

The last one takes the cake, eats it whole and talks about another waist tire as 'mad gainz'.

Isn't it very easy to get 'qualified'? I know in my home country there are weekend courses which costs a couple of hundred Euros and then you get your 'Fitness Instructor Certification' despite the fact that many men and all women have never made one single squat.

It would be nice to have some sort of proper school or educational institution where you would be taught proper fitness and gym techniques. From history, through nutrition, to exercises.

But honestly, I see this forum as such an institution. No bullshit, all the facts, encouragement where it's needed and likewise critique when somebody must be take down a notch. I've started proper weightlifting due to you guys.

My first book was Starting Strength and I had to order it from Amazon because no library or store in my country had it. Glad I did. It was the beginning of an awesome adventure. The rabbit hole goes down deep and I wonder where it will take me.

Quote:Isn't it very easy to get 'qualified'? I know in my home country there are weekend courses which costs a couple of hundred Euros and then you get your 'Fitness Instructor Certification' despite the fact that many men and all women have never made one single squat.

It would be nice to have some sort of proper school or educational institution where you would be taught proper fitness and gym techniques. From history, through nutrition, to exercises.

Damn, that's crazy. It's not that bad here. Theres Cert 3 fitness instructor and 4 personal trainer. I was going to do it but issues come up with the people running it, it was going to be around 8 months 1 day a week, so if done full time I guess you could get it pretty quick. But you need a certain amount of hours work experience to get it too.

It's a hard thing to have it uniform, since so many people disagree on what works. And the current fitness courses i've been told the government teaches stupid shit and even some of the instructors are like "I know this is stupid but you have to do it to pass" such as "for the whole course you can only do compound type movements when you workout and nothing else".

Quote:But honestly, I see this forum as such an institution. No bullshit, all the facts, encouragement where it's needed and likewise critique when somebody must be take down a notch. I've started proper weightlifting due to you guys.

It is hard to find good information, that's why I always research online before doing programs. Still there is so much conflicting stuff so I try different things and see how it works for me. Though not blindly, i'm not gonna start doing squat curls on fitballs or anything.

Quote:My first book was Starting Strength and I had to order it from Amazon because no library or store in my country had it. Glad I did. It was the beginning of an awesome adventure. The rabbit hole goes down deep and I wonder where it will take me.

I started with Burn The Fat, Feed the Muscle by Tom Venuto and have done a few things since. Big Beyond Belief put on good muscle but it's easy to overtrain with, Greyskull LP (similar to starting strength) was pretty good and I got way stronger, though his business and customer service is fucking shit and he will most likely rip you off so just download the pdf.

Joe Defranco Built like a badass was pretty good, though i'm not sure how good it would be if you straight want to build muscle as I was still working on losing weight while doing it.

And currently i'm trying HIT. Done 4 weeks on a full body program now starting a split one.

Dominance- Did you get your routine from Markus Reinhardt? I know he was one of Mentzer's disciples.

Yep, he's the main guy for it now. I've been waiting for his dvd and in the meantime did a skype session with him. Ideally i'd love to train with a real HIT trainer so I know my intensity is high enough.

Did the first workout today on the split program after doing full body about 4 weeks, some days I feel like i'm struggling getting the intensity high enough.. today because of exercises I hadn't done much and not knowing what weights to use. The workout was way quicker than usual workouts so I hope it works as promised.

Have you done HIT training Fortis? Even though it's not something new most people don't even know what it is at the gym.

No way. I'm too new to the iron game. I have a few friends who LOVE that shit. Maybe I'll try it in a few years.

(05-09-2016 01:53 AM)Dominance Wrote:  I get sick of personal trainers who are skinny and not even in shape thinking they are qualified to give advice and talk shit because they have the 'qualification'. Aswell as the opposite, fat out of shape fitness instructors.

A personal trainer at my gym, he doesn't even look like he lifts at all and I don't think i've really ever seen him do a workout but he always tries to talk shit about what i'm doing at the gym even though i've achieved way more than he ever has fitness/gym wise. I'm just not 'qualified' in it.

First it was that I used primal blueprint/paleo type eating to lose alot of weight and about almost every program i've done even programs that are highly recommended and effective (e.g Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) and was like "I guarantee I could write something that is better".. yet he is little and skinny.

I've started doing HIT and got a program from one of the main guys in a skype session and was talking to this instructor about it and some of the concepts and he's like "that's dumb" blah blah. And in the end he goes 'it is what it is' and I just said "that's what people say when they have nothing" and he didn't say much after that.

I'd trust this guy who is a proper bodybuilder who gave me the program and trained under Mike Mentzer over this little, skinny gym instructor who i've barely seen do a workout in his life and if you seen him outside of the gym and didn't know you'd never think he had lifted a weight in his life.

Unfortunately this shit doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. I seriously seen an article yesterday "fitness tips from plus size fitness instructors".

Ok I decided to find it again for you guys... seriously.. look at their photos. They have ZERO right to be fitness instructors.

This is wrong in so many ways. Such an old fashioned argument that is debunked every single day at the high levels of sport.

My S&C coach is a skinny little Fitness Nerd. His clients include top level Pro Boxers, Premier League footballers and the UK's highest level MMA fighters amongst others. He charges double what every other personal trainer in my city costs per hour. He's worth every penny.

He knows more about S&C than anyone I've ever met and I've been in the fitness and fighting game for over 30 years in various ways.

The sports science grads coming out of the top UK sports-centric universities are just so much more knowledgable than anyone before them.

Leicester City won the premier league this year. Perhaps the biggest sporting upset ever. A lot of their success has been attributed to a young Conditioning Coach with big ideas who harassed them for a job straight out of university. He's never played football at a high level.

This argument can be made for just about every discipline of sport/exercise/fitness.

^^ Absolutely. Cus D'Amato had one fight, which I believe he lost.

(05-09-2016 08:31 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(05-09-2016 01:53 AM)Dominance Wrote:  I get sick of personal trainers who are skinny and not even in shape thinking they are qualified to give advice and talk shit because they have the 'qualification'. Aswell as the opposite, fat out of shape fitness instructors.

A personal trainer at my gym, he doesn't even look like he lifts at all and I don't think i've really ever seen him do a workout but he always tries to talk shit about what i'm doing at the gym even though i've achieved way more than he ever has fitness/gym wise. I'm just not 'qualified' in it.

First it was that I used primal blueprint/paleo type eating to lose alot of weight and about almost every program i've done even programs that are highly recommended and effective (e.g Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) and was like "I guarantee I could write something that is better".. yet he is little and skinny.

I've started doing HIT and got a program from one of the main guys in a skype session and was talking to this instructor about it and some of the concepts and he's like "that's dumb" blah blah. And in the end he goes 'it is what it is' and I just said "that's what people say when they have nothing" and he didn't say much after that.

I'd trust this guy who is a proper bodybuilder who gave me the program and trained under Mike Mentzer over this little, skinny gym instructor who i've barely seen do a workout in his life and if you seen him outside of the gym and didn't know you'd never think he had lifted a weight in his life.

Unfortunately this shit doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. I seriously seen an article yesterday "fitness tips from plus size fitness instructors".

Ok I decided to find it again for you guys... seriously.. look at their photos. They have ZERO right to be fitness instructors.

This is wrong in so many ways. Such an old fashioned argument that is debunked every single day at the high levels of sport.

I apologize in advance for the noobish question - but what does S&C stand for?

I agree 100% with what you are saying. But you are talking about people who've actually studied and know their shit. In my area there are not a lot of those, but we have too many trainers who are basically selling snake oil.

(05-09-2016 10:50 AM)Guriko Wrote:  

(05-09-2016 08:31 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(05-09-2016 01:53 AM)Dominance Wrote:  I get sick of personal trainers who are skinny and not even in shape thinking they are qualified to give advice and talk shit because they have the 'qualification'. Aswell as the opposite, fat out of shape fitness instructors.

A personal trainer at my gym, he doesn't even look like he lifts at all and I don't think i've really ever seen him do a workout but he always tries to talk shit about what i'm doing at the gym even though i've achieved way more than he ever has fitness/gym wise. I'm just not 'qualified' in it.

First it was that I used primal blueprint/paleo type eating to lose alot of weight and about almost every program i've done even programs that are highly recommended and effective (e.g Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) and was like "I guarantee I could write something that is better".. yet he is little and skinny.

I've started doing HIT and got a program from one of the main guys in a skype session and was talking to this instructor about it and some of the concepts and he's like "that's dumb" blah blah. And in the end he goes 'it is what it is' and I just said "that's what people say when they have nothing" and he didn't say much after that.

I'd trust this guy who is a proper bodybuilder who gave me the program and trained under Mike Mentzer over this little, skinny gym instructor who i've barely seen do a workout in his life and if you seen him outside of the gym and didn't know you'd never think he had lifted a weight in his life.

Unfortunately this shit doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. I seriously seen an article yesterday "fitness tips from plus size fitness instructors".

Ok I decided to find it again for you guys... seriously.. look at their photos. They have ZERO right to be fitness instructors.

This is wrong in so many ways. Such an old fashioned argument that is debunked every single day at the high levels of sport.

I apologize in advance for the noobish question - but what does S&C stand for?

I agree 100% with what you are saying. But you are talking about people who've actually studied and know their shit. In my area there are not a lot of those, but we have too many trainers who are basically selling snake oil.

Strength and Conditioning.

There are as many moronic brain dead gym rats that also sell their services as trainers; disingenuously.

Someone having the body that you want is absolutely no guarantee that they know how to get you to that point.

In my industry, martial arts, it's a common theme that the best fighters very, very rarely make the best coaches.

(05-09-2016 11:09 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(05-09-2016 10:50 AM)Guriko Wrote:  

(05-09-2016 08:31 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(05-09-2016 01:53 AM)Dominance Wrote:  I get sick of personal trainers who are skinny and not even in shape thinking they are qualified to give advice and talk shit because they have the 'qualification'. Aswell as the opposite, fat out of shape fitness instructors.

A personal trainer at my gym, he doesn't even look like he lifts at all and I don't think i've really ever seen him do a workout but he always tries to talk shit about what i'm doing at the gym even though i've achieved way more than he ever has fitness/gym wise. I'm just not 'qualified' in it.

First it was that I used primal blueprint/paleo type eating to lose alot of weight and about almost every program i've done even programs that are highly recommended and effective (e.g Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) and was like "I guarantee I could write something that is better".. yet he is little and skinny.

I've started doing HIT and got a program from one of the main guys in a skype session and was talking to this instructor about it and some of the concepts and he's like "that's dumb" blah blah. And in the end he goes 'it is what it is' and I just said "that's what people say when they have nothing" and he didn't say much after that.

I'd trust this guy who is a proper bodybuilder who gave me the program and trained under Mike Mentzer over this little, skinny gym instructor who i've barely seen do a workout in his life and if you seen him outside of the gym and didn't know you'd never think he had lifted a weight in his life.

Unfortunately this shit doesn't seem to be an isolated incident. I seriously seen an article yesterday "fitness tips from plus size fitness instructors".

Ok I decided to find it again for you guys... seriously.. look at their photos. They have ZERO right to be fitness instructors.

This is wrong in so many ways. Such an old fashioned argument that is debunked every single day at the high levels of sport.

I apologize in advance for the noobish question - but what does S&C stand for?

I agree 100% with what you are saying. But you are talking about people who've actually studied and know their shit. In my area there are not a lot of those, but we have too many trainers who are basically selling snake oil.

Strength and Conditioning.

There are as many moronic brain dead gym rats that also sell their services as trainers; disingenuously.

Someone having the body that you want is absolutely no guarantee that they know how to get you to that point.

In my industry, martial arts, it's a common theme that the best fighters very, very rarely make the best coaches.

Someone having the body that you want is absolutely no guarantee that they know how to get you to that point --> I'll remember that, thank you.

In my industry, martial arts, it's a common theme that the best fighters very, very rarely make the best coaches --> I didn't know that. I thought it was a natural progression of a martial artist to go from trainee to trainer at some point.