Post: #51

AntiTrace - first off, that photo was taken from a blog from a Vegas resident, I did not have a camera with me at the time I was outdoors observing this. Second of all, I only posted it as an example of what I observed. What I saw over the course of an hour or so was several jets making multiple lines all across the sky, not just the few depicted in that pic.

And I repeat, I watched long enough to know that all of the trails criss crossing in a grid pattern where not airplanes approaching for landing on parallel runways at McCarran. I'll admit that I did not watch long enough to see where these jets laying down the grid of contrails went...they were still going at it with the back and forth when I went back inside. But I did periodically go outside afterwards and noted the trails just hung there and very slowly dissipated into a hazy overcast cloud cover over entire areas of the valley.

But during that time where I just sat outside and watched, I saw several of these jets make back and forth patterns...not the same as jets circling until they have permission to land, and certainly not intercontinental flights passing through Vegas airspace.

Anyhow, I'm done arguing on this thread. My purpose was to see if anyone has seen similar phenomena, not argue the veracity of conspiracy theory.

You guys have tried to expalin to me what you think I saw. Your explanations don't jibe with what I saw.

That is all I'm saying.

Post: #52

"Chemtrails Survery"

"My purpose was to see if anyone has seen similar phenomena, not argue the veracity of conspiracy theory"

^--yet brings up a conspiracy theory in original post.


Cmon bro, come to your senses. I get you saw something out of the ordinary. But it was out of the ordinary to YOU! You talk about not bringing up a conspiracy in a thread labeled with the title of a conspiracy theory, and then continue to make claims that you "know" they were "spraying something."

You've made some observations. We have explained them. You don't even bother to give our valid explanations a response and then back out of the discussion because we arent validating your observations.

Quote:Your explanations don't jibe with what I saw

I have explained the possible reason behind grid like patterns. You said you saw grid like patterns. What more do you want?

You have a chance to discuss this with someone who is an Aviation expert, why would you give up that chance if you really want to know whats going?

Post: #53

You don't even bother to give our valid explanations a response and then back out of the discussion because we arent validating your observations.

One of the first explanations proffered was that I was watching jets circling, waiting for permission from ATC to land. Based on what I saw, I found this explanation extremely improbable.

Then someone said I was simply seeing the contrails of coastal flights flying in Vegas airspace. I'm fairly certain NY - LAX flights don't fly back and forth over the vegas valley multiple times before resuming their coast-to-coast flights to JFK/LAX.

Finally, you stated you think I saw parallel contrails from jets using parallel runways to land. I'm telling you I saw 5-7 jets, criss crossing the sky at a much higher altitude than all of the regular commercial traffic I was watching take off and land at McCarran at the same time.

None of yours or anyone else's explanations are satisfactory in explaining to me what I saw.

It's not just the grid patterns, but the way it took these contrail grids hours to dissipate, and they did not dissipate completely, but turned into hazy cloud cover that blanketed the sky for hours.

Maybe you all are correct, but I just don't find these explanations plausible explanations for what I witnessed myself.

It looked to me like a deliberate, systematic operation. But I'll let you know if any of you do come up with something more plausible in my mind's eye to explain what I saw, than what's been proffered so far....so far I remain unconvinced. Not because I'm being stubborn or clinging to my theory, but simply because none of your explanations (which I did honestly read and consider) match up with what I witnessed.

Post: #54

I also explained the possibility of maintenance test flights which routinely travel back and forth in a certain airspace.

Again, your talking to an expert. How about you ask me a question, as opposed to blatantly dismissing my input.

Post: #55

I also explained the possibility of maintenance test flights which routinely travel back and forth in a certain airspace.


I'll concede that is the best fit to explain what I saw in terms of the flight patterns, and Nellis Air Force Base is located in the Vegas Valley area in which military jets would be much more likely to engage in such flight patterns.

I'm not just dismissing your input, just the input that doesn't adequately explain what I saw to my satisfaction. But I can go with routine test flights/maintenance to explain the deliberate, systematic grid flight patterns.

My dismissal is reserved for all the arguments here that tried to tell me I was witnessing normal commercial aircraft behavior.

On that, I remain unconvinced they adequately explain what I saw.

Post: #56

(08-02-2014 06:55 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  Speak, he at least does have a solid point that some military traffic wont show up on that map. That doesnt make the chemtrail claims any more valid though, but any conspiracy theorist will easily shoot down that map because of that.

Heres a cool link: http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=klas

listen to ATC traffic live.

Take a look at some busy airports and you will see how congested and stressfull it can become to pilots

I don't know much about the air force rules for filing flight plans but I would think that most of the military flights that aren't reported would be in restricted air space. Or craft that are so high such as the U2 surveillance plane they can't possibly interfere with normal air traffic. The contrails people are reporting are from planes flying at normal cruising altitudes like 30-40k feet.

Now here's my logic on this and someone feel free to point out if it seems wrong...The skies over America are the most crowded with airliners in the entire world. There are all kinds of rules about maintaining safe separation between other aircraft, and thus all planes flying in the area of commercial airspace have to have some flight plan, maintain contact with ATC and have a transponder just so that other craft in the area know where they are and there isn't a mid-air collision. Because of weather, planes are constantly having to change course or modify altitude. And when a pilot wants to make a detour around a thunderstorm and go off course, he has to get permission from air traffic control first because they need to check and make sure his new route isn't going to send him colliding into another plane. So you can see how dangerous it could be having a bunch of jets flying around at commercial aviation altitudes that aren't being tracked and filing no flight plans. And if military jets are literally crisscrossing the sky "off the books" with nobody knowing where they are, can you imagine how dangerous this would be to commercial jets using the same air space?

That's why test pilots fly over places like Edwards and Nellis AFBs where commercial aircraft are restricted from flying over. Or they may go way out over the ocean to get away from commercial jets. I can't envision a scenario where you have a bunch of secret military planes crisscrossing over major cities spraying chemicals and having no flight plans registered, no transponders, no contact with air traffic control. And people report these contrails over Los Angeles. The skies in the Los Angeles are are jam-packed with commercial and general aviation. I'm something of geek about this stuff so I've looked at the flight tracking sites many times and I'm just astounded how many planes are over Los Angeles at any given time. I find it very hard to believe that military craft can enter this crowded air space without having having any communications with ATC or other craft in the area. That would be put the life of both the military pilots at risk and the passengers/crew on commercial airlines at risk.

Edit --

Here's another question for the conspiracy people. If this is some clandestine operation, why wouldn't they just spray the chemicals at night so that nobody would even know they are there? If it's meant to be a secret, why the hell would they do it in broad daylight when they could do it in the middle of the night and nobody would know?

Post: #57

(08-02-2014 08:35 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  snip

very good point on the fact military flights require flight plans.

This is 100% correct. All military flights on regular training missions adhere to all FAA regulations which including establishing a flight plan and operating via ATC guidance (at which point they would show up on maps)

I was humoring the conspiracy theorists with the fact that it is possible to be "unidentified" in national airpsace if required. So it is possible, though very unlikely, that a military aircraft can operate in the airspace without showing up on said map (they would still show up on radar unless it was a stealth aircraft).

However, there is no reason an aircraft an a training flight would not talk to ATC. It is beneficial for the military pilot to be advised of civilian traffic and the civilian traffic to be aware of the military traffic.

I also like your point about spraying at night.


edit--all flights will still show up via radar unless a stealth aircraft. and as far as i know there are now stealth jumbo jet liners that could dumb chemicals all over our poor souls

Post: #58

(07-31-2014 07:46 PM)K Galt Wrote:  As of right now, I believe only one thing about this topic - the idea this is much ado about nothing or a normal phenomena is utter bullshit. What I witnessed looks deliberate and systematic.

Roger that! I hope those pilots are deliberate and systematic otherwise I'm not boarding any airliners .

Careful opening that deep freeze door...

Post: #59

Hanlon's Razor when it comes to most conspiracies.

The government isn't even competent enough to do anything about unarmed minors crossing the border. The government wasn't competent enough to prevent 9/11 despite the fact that there were very ample indicators that such an attack was being planned. You expect me to believe that everyone is in on some grand conspiracy?

Not only that, but as more people know about a scheme, it is exponentially more likely to be revealed. Such was the case with the NSA. The agency is large enough that there was no way it was going to keep its secrets in the dark forever. For this conspiracy to work, a whole lot of people would need to be in on it. Even if you want to say that the pilots don't know what they're spraying out (and for what purpose?), some people somewhere needs to know about and coordinate it, and it would be a large enough number to support the likelihood of the conspiracy getting out.

To believe in a conspiracy theory in most cases you would need to literally make so many assumptions that you might as well still argue for a geocentric solar system (you can technically try to argue that too, but the fact that the heliocentric model requires far, far fewer assumptions is one of the reasons why it's a lot more likely to be true). It's usually such a violation of Occam's Razor that it can usually be dismissed outright.

Post: #60

Everybody must participate in this poll. And I think they are doing it deliberately for sure!

Post: #61

Hasn't anyone heard of geoengineering?
http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/07/buffering-the-sun

Wouldn't be hard for a black op to pull off something like this long before the public even has a discussion about it. We are talking about a government that invests trillions in projects that are meant to be kept absolutely secret. I wouldn't dare guess what is going on (if anything), but it's possible that something's going on.

Let's assume this has been going on over the past two decades without public knowledge or consent. Then why would they do it in the day? I don't think it matters when they do it, as long as they can just call it "ordinary contrails" and rely on a public that doesn't really care one way or the other. Just look at how one person on this forum is ostracized for attempting to point out a personal observation. At the professional level, people lose their livelihood for making "observations."

Post: #62

Post: #63

While we are at songs - this one is a cool one on the topic:

Post: #64

I can't help but notice that when someone believes one conspiracy theory, they tend to believe them all.

Post: #65

Some conspiracy theories are true. The vast majority are tinfoil mental masturbation.

Post: #66

(02-21-2015 09:40 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I can't help but notice that when someone believes one conspiracy theory, they tend to believe them all.

Right, and they seem to get off on the fact that they know something you don't.

Superiority complex? I don't know, but it's painful to watch.

When I meet someone and they start talking about chem trails I will usually let the conversation die and avoid them in future. They just don't seem stable or in control.

Some conspiracy theories are worth the taught experiment, but chem trails are just absurd when you come from a scientific / engineering background and are aware of how governments will actually manipulate citizens. I want to grab them by the shoulders and shake them.

They have the same longing for truth as I do but they seem so desperate to get it that they will accept fraudulent fine sounding arguments instead. All that matters is that they can use it as a tool to persuade someone else to believe it too. Maybe occasionally there is something in there about feeding a victim mentality.

I see conspiracies as distraction now. I didn't realize at the time but I briefly used them as a way to avoiding doing something of actual value. You can sit on the internet reading up on conspiracy theories for days and feel that you're achieving something, when in actual fact you're doing nothing but jerking off with your brain.

The only thing I have in common is a lack of faith in modern day government to tell the truth about anything if it doesn't fit their agenda.

Post: #67

A good way to determine whether a conspiracy theory has any merit or not is to ask yourself if anyone has gone to jail for espousing it.

Post: #68

The Chemtrail theory is seriously ridiculous.

If the government (or whoever) was trying to 'poison' or brainwash us, wouldn't it be incredibly more easy just to put it in the water supply?

My Chemistry professor in college said it's ridiculous that anyone can even believe this and that it would be incredibly difficult/nearly impossible to pull it off.

Who has more weight behind their argument, my Chemistry professor who has a PhD in Chemistry with decades of research and an expert on the subject of 'chemicals', or some washed out hippies smoking hash in the woods?

Post: #69

(02-21-2015 11:27 PM)AldoKelevra Wrote:  If the government (or whoever) was trying to 'poison' or brainwash us, wouldn't it be incredibly more easy just to put it in the water supply?

Flouride, duh.

Post: #70

(02-22-2015 12:43 AM)enderilluminatus Wrote:  

(02-21-2015 11:27 PM)AldoKelevra Wrote:  If the government (or whoever) was trying to 'poison' or brainwash us, wouldn't it be incredibly more easy just to put it in the water supply?

Flouride, duh.

I've got a song on Fluoride as well:





Also there are plenty of even so called peer reviewed tests on fluoride as toxin with no benefits whatsoever. Israel like many other counties and countries before recently banned water fluoridation.

But seriously - not to derail the thread - with everything in life you have to study all sides - believing 100% in the government and also in the best science that money can buy is not smart. I personally question a lot and seek the most logical answer based on my own reasoning and try to find alternative viewpoints on subjects also by experts. There are always so-called dissenting scientists - remember that Einstein was one such dissenting scientist - he was vehemently opposed by most physicists back in his day. There was even a big consensus-letter published by those guys who publicly mocked him.

The problem is that many people mix in the moronic, stupid and unfounded theories with the ones which are backed by proof, reason, science and logic.


Actual rat poison can sold in the 1910s-30s before using the same chemical in the water supply in the 1950s.

Post: #71

Post: #72

(02-22-2015 04:51 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  The problem is that many people mix in the moronic, stupid and unfounded theories with the ones which are backed by proof, reason, science and logic.


Actual rat poison can sold in the 1910s-30s before using the same chemical in the water supply in the 1950s.

Conspiracy theory today, documented fact tomorrow, quickly forgotten the day after.

People will believe what they want to believe, I'll leave em' to it

Post: #73

They're legitimate.


While working in the military on a DOD-exclusive system, I came across files (Marked UNCLASSIFIED//FOUO) that talk about something called "Operation Patriot Spray". The files themselves are a list of talking points that Force Commanders "should be prepared to discuss due to the high visibility of spraying operations".

Don't believe me? Look it up on SIPR.

Post: #74

(08-01-2014 10:44 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote:[quote='Youngback' pid='795861' dateline='1406907259']
A Surprising amount of men here seemingly eager to jump militantly to the defense of our benevolent overlords. Why is there so much defensiveness from some of you guys?

I'm not saying I have any expertise on this, but I was skeptical when I first read about this stuff. I didn't believe it and assumed it was more whackjob disinformation. Then I started watching the skies.

I live in the south. Jets fly in a grid pattern, leaving trails that behave NOTHING like water vapor.

I live in the south as well and see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in our skies. And how exactly do you know what water vapor behaves like at 35,000 feet? Are you a meteorologist?

I live in Colorado and I see a LOT out of the ordinary. If you haven't lived out here in the front range region, you know that visibility is massive. You can typically see ~30 miles in any direction.

There's been any number of times that I'll see aircraft in the same part of the sky leaving different contrails: some will dissipate quickly, others will spread out into a grey haze. I've also seen grey aircraft flying in circles around Cheyenne mountain spraying thick contrails that were creating a cloud around it. Another thing I've noticed is that the aircraft laying done the hazy contrails tend to move much faster than other planes you can see in the sky at any given time.

Post: #75

(05-15-2015 12:57 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  They're legitimate.


While working in the military on a DOD-exclusive system, I came across files (Marked UNCLASSIFIED//FOUO) that talk about something called "Operation Patriot Spray". The files themselves are a list of talking points that Force Commanders "should be prepared to discuss due to the high visibility of spraying operations".

Don't believe me? Look it up on SIPR.

It's the military in each country who is doing it - sometimes a pilot lets go a few morsels.

Recently there was a panel at the United Nations where they called those sprayings "experiments". Usually they call it geoengineering, but officially deny that it is happening.




http://yournewswire.com/the-united-natio...-are-real/

But I guess that nothing will convince some - not their own eyes, not the movies you watch before 1995 and see clear skys, nothing - if it's not in the New York Beta Times, then it does not exist.