Post: #51

(09-07-2014 02:03 PM)BallsDeep Wrote:  It's a bit of a catch 22, in that the most popular clubs attract all the attention whores, who are often the hottest chicks. They're also mainly from Socal.

If the goal is to bang a 7, I'd hit up large, tier 2 clubs. Tryst, Tao, 1oak, the club at the Hard Rock, come to mind. No Hollywood chick would be caught dead being at one of these places, so here you get the flyover state girls who have the "whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" mindset. But when you step into these places you immediately can feel a difference. There's no Hollywood smokeshows (that at least for me) get your testosterone flowing. But the girls who are there are all available to talk. They're not hiding in the table section because most of those areas have now been converted into dancing areas. It's a happy medium, because there are plenty of good looking girls who aren't familiar with Vegas and therefore don't have the promoter connects to get comped at the better places, but they're good enough to skip the line/cover at these tier 2 places.

Excellent info. Also check out day time parties which pick up those the hotel pools closed around now. I went to 1 at the Ghost Bar and it was good.

Post: #52

(09-07-2014 02:23 PM)rishboy77 Wrote:  

(09-07-2014 02:03 PM)BallsDeep Wrote:  It's a bit of a catch 22, in that the most popular clubs attract all the attention whores, who are often the hottest chicks. They're also mainly from Socal.

If the goal is to bang a 7, I'd hit up large, tier 2 clubs. Tryst, Tao, 1oak, the club at the Hard Rock, come to mind. No Hollywood chick would be caught dead being at one of these places, so here you get the flyover state girls who have the "whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" mindset. But when you step into these places you immediately can feel a difference. There's no Hollywood smokeshows (that at least for me) get your testosterone flowing. But the girls who are there are all available to talk. They're not hiding in the table section because most of those areas have now been converted into dancing areas. It's a happy medium, because there are plenty of good looking girls who aren't familiar with Vegas and therefore don't have the promoter connects to get comped at the better places, but they're good enough to skip the line/cover at these tier 2 places.

Excellent info. Also check out day time parties which pick up those the hotel pools closed around now. I went to 1 at the Ghost Bar and it was good.

You lost me. I understand the first and third sentence of your post, but I have no idea what you are saying in the second sentence. Could you maybe edit that part of your post?

Post: #53

Isn't the hard rock totally lame now? Also, it seems like the girls do more drugs and alcohol for the bigger names.

Is 1Oak more hip hop oriented?

Post: #54

(09-07-2014 06:31 PM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  Isn't the hard rock totally lame now? Also, it seems like the girls do more drugs and alcohol for the bigger names.

I recently stayed at Hard Rock. It was a last minute trip on a pretty busy weekend and I didn't have too many options. Overall, I really didn't like the place except that Rehab on Sunday was surprisingly good. If I were staying somewhere else, I would obviously choose EBC over Rehab, but on Sunday volume was good and the talent was surprisingly good at Rehab. Also, there is a restaurant close to Hard Rock called Lawry's The Prime Rib that is one of the best restaurants I have ever been to. After I cashed in at Hard Rock, I was starving out of my mind and walked into Lawry's, which was the first door I saw, without doing any research. I'm glad I went there.

Post: #55

I went to Body English (at the Hard Rock) a few weeks ago on a Sunday. It was completely dead. A few years back, that was THE spot to be for their "Sunday School" party where all the girls dressed in school girl costumes to get in faster. The hotel seemed completely empty, I think its not anything near of a hot spot, it used to be the spot where all the crazy rockstar/orgy lifestyle used to be at, but its decidedly 3rd tier now. It used to be hot because of Rehab and everyone went there as it was the only Pool Party and they were super lax on the rules (i.e. you could basically bring your Rehab sippy cups upstairs and refill them, go in and out to go up to your room).

1Oak is hiphop oriented. It was mainly blacks and latinos, packed to the gills on the dance floor. I don't recommend it.

I still consider Haze 3rd tier, its actually not that bad as far as crowd and opportunities go though. The crowd is a little more midwest/tourist, so that gets the odds in your favor a bit if you're not getting bottles/tables. I've gone there twice this year, on weekends. I'd probably go there if nothing else was looking good.

Post: #56

One thing to keep in mind about any club that's not a premier club is they have ethnic nights. For example, I think Light in Bellagio has urban night on Friday, and Tao has Asian night on Friday.

But hotel concierges all know this type of stuff and can set you straight. I was at 1oak on either a Tuesday or Thursday (whatever their industry night is) earlier this year and it was pretty good. And I pulled so obviously it's a club that stays memorable to me.

As far as clubs like Hades, I wouldn't go there on a weekend. To me, what differentiates a second tier from a third tier is that second tier clubs were all at one time the place to be, like what hakkasan is now. Tryst, Tao, Body English etc were all at one time the most happening club in Vegas and therefore have name recognition. Whereas a place like Hades had a good industry night, but it was never the premier club, and so chicks from Ohio will have never heard of it. Hakkasan is an example of a club that within a year will become a second tier and have an ethnic night once a week, but will still attract the group of 7s from Ohio because their friends went there the year before and can't stop raving about it.

Post: #57

Something I noticed is that the better clubs have a bigger difference between male and female prices. Maybe the top shelf places want good ratios for their table buyers?

For this upcoming Friday
XS: $87 for men, $41 for women.
Hakkasan: $75 vs $30
Light: $54 vs $27
Life: $33 vs $22
Tryst: $30 vs $20
Surrender: $37 vs $26.
Marquee: $40 vs $20.

I'm guessing LiFE will go straight to Tier 2 status. Light at Mandalay Bay it seems was never Tier 1, but I haven't been there yet. And Marquee is on the downswing.

Top tier right now is XS and Hakkasan. And Encore Beach.

Hakkasan is opening up a club at Caesar's Palace in the old Pure spot. Early 2015 opening (New Year's?).

Another advantage of Tier 2 clubs is that you stand a good chance of getting in free if you bring girls, whereas that won't happen at a Tier 1 club - or so I was told. You'll probably want 2 per guy.

Post: #58

Is anyone in Las Vegas right now? I'm asking because I have a question which can really only be answered by a person who is in a Las Vegas casino. Thanks in advance.

Post: #59

Was in Vegas again this past weekend.

Was there with a few seasoned players, and have to say, the girls at clubs were just not very promiscuous. The ratios were mediocre to okay at the venues I went to, but even the ratios weren't really the issue. I can work with okay to mediocre ratios. It's just most of the girls are just not really looking to hook up. And despite all the free drinks, girls didn't seem all that drunk. And this is on Halloween, so a regular weekend would likely only be worse. I saw tons and tons of girls leaving the clubs without guys, with boyfriends, or with male friends they came to Vegas with - very much like nightlife everywhere else. It seems like with every passing year, the sexuality of American women becomes more disordered - less time in relationships, while craving sex with strange men less too - It's long been my contention that sex happens often just because all their other options for fun have been exhausted, and not because they especially want it.

It would be interesting to see if Vegas would improve if the EDM, bottle service bubble popped, but for now, as long as that dynamic is raging, you've got to deal with it or ditch the scene altogether. The bars in Vegas, from what I saw, are empty and lame, not even fit to be called sideshows to the clubs. I don't know which bars to go to, but what I did hear and see, none were very fruitful. They're more like date spots, places you take a girl that is already into you but maybe not quite ready to go to your room with you.

Instead of a fuckfest, Vegas is where men throw tons of money to the wind while women get to play the pampered princess, where every drink, limo ride and concert ticket is paid for, leaving only a room shared with five other girls remaining to be paid. Also, most girls you meet, especially the attractive ones, are already Vegas experts. They're getting everything comped, and there's little of any novelty or curiosity left, it's just a little excursion to do with their friends.

Maybe the attention whoring quotient was boosted by it being Halloween weekend, but I've had good times on previous Halloweens, so I'd tend to think other weekends during the winter will not be better.

I was in close touch with three other forum members who I've winged with several times each before, at the least, and they would say the same things I've said here about our experiences out (so this is really the observations of four people albeit from the same weekend and venues, more or less).


I discussed with my wingmen how to make the next trip better:

1. Pipeline during the day. A girl's receptiveness to going home with you seems much higher if you met her somewhere more innocent than the nightclub, and then go out and party with her later. I didn't do this on my most recent trip, but on a previous one, this one was successful in getting a bang. I still need to figure out where to meet girls during the day, aside from the dayclubs. The shops, like at the Palazzo/Venetian have some talent coursing through.
2. Go to day drinking spots. I've done much more night game, but it seems like there's better talent and harder partying at day drinking events. Next time I go, I will make day drinking priority #1, instead of subordinate to nightlife.
3. Go where the girls drink hard.
4. Wait for pool season - March.

I will be back, but probably not until pool season. The only bright spot between then and now is New Year's, but it's insanely overpriced and crowded then, and probably just way too pricey to make sense.

One problem with Vegas that I realized is that the Nevada Gaming Board is very strict about doling out gaming licenses, and if sleazy, skeezy activity were taking place at nightlife spots (eg, sex in the pools at Hard Rock) could get a casino's gaming license revoked, which is basically a death knell for any major hotel or resort there. But the female equivalent of sleaze - attention whoring - is a-okay in resorts, and widely encouraged.

Would be interesting to hear other takes on Vegas.

Post: #60

Basil nailed it. I was there two weeks ago and it was by far the worst I've seen it. Fat Midwesterners, low volume, few international tourists, and few bachelorette parties. The strip clubs seemed to be going strong, though. I think it is more of a high season/low season thing than anything else. The summer months are always strong, as far as I've seen. This time of year seems to be weak. I'll be back for the Mayweather fight in May. I don't really see the point in going back before then.

Post: #61

If you talk to the attractive girls there, at least in this current off-season, you start to see a lot of commonalities:

*They've been to Vegas many times, and have stayed at most if not every four and five star hotel on the Strip.
*They've been to every half decent club and pool party in town.
*They never pay for anything.
*They go frequently.
*Often but not always from Southern California.

They're going to Vegas because they can live the high life on a budget there, and they get tons of men to cater to their every whim. They aren't going to Vegas to fuck. If they do have sex, it's largely ancillary to the real reason they went. She can get good sex with an app on her phone, no four hour drive or flight required.

Post: #62

I think Basil may be alluding to some wider trends going on in society. There is a bit of ebb and flow through the decades. The 90s through mid 2000s were a good time to be in the clubs looking for ONS. Since then, the club as a means to get laid for the average man in America has greatly diminished. Clubs are now centered around social network, tables and girls coming and leaving with mixed sets. In other words, much the way it is in much of Latin America. One rarely sees just two girls out by themselves. A two-set is looking to hook up. A group of girls screaming "wooooooo" and taking selfies doesn't give a shit about any of the men in the room.

As noted I definitely think the EDM and table thing are creating distance between men and women. EDM and raver culture in general don't encourage men and women to dance sensually. Everybody is just doing their own thing with no touching and that thing they do with their hands where they look like their bouncing it off the sky.

If you guys insist on trying to navigate the club scene, probably best to look for clubs/bars with lots of two-sets. I'd think the strip itself during the day would be a goldmine.

Post: #63

Its been getting worse all year. Glad others are seeing the same thing. Too bottle service oriented with huge minimums, too many Mega DJs, and clubs are getting WAY too packed. LAVO brunch was AWESOME last year, better than anything I've ever been in Vegas, I'd suggest if you have the funds to go to that. As I mentioned above, I thought the talent and vibe at Beacher's Madhouse was really good. I've gone to Vegas less this year than I have since the late 1990s.

I just don't think the "good" crowd goes to Vegas anymore. I think its gotten more accessible so the A-list talent is less about it. Also, they probably already partied there so many times its lost its luster and exclusivity. Its no longer "cool" to tell people you're going to Vegas to see Tiesto, its basically become "normal". I notice more of the former Vegas bottle rats are doing trips to the California desert to go drink by themselves, become artsy, etc.

I'm not sure what my Vegas strategy will be next year, it definitely has to change. If I were to go now, all things being equal, I would strictly go to Tao, Surrender and XS. I don't care, those venues will always be decent with a bunch of talent you can extract. Hakkasan is crowded as fuck with a distracted crowd, Light has horrible quality, I've never liked Marquee, haven't been to SLS but it seems too far to be worth it.

I think the best weekends will be any fight weekend that has a marquee Mexican boxer involved until spring. I basically never go in December/January. February and March it will start picking up again. I think you need to target the pre-summer weekends and the EARLY weekends of summer.

Valentine's Day is on a Saturday this year and its also President's day weekend. It might be an ok weekend, then again, it might be a bunch of bro's thinking it'll be a good weekend. I'm thinking it'll be decent if you get into good venues. I might actually book some rooms soon just to lock in a decent rate if they exist.

Edit: The Vegas Rock and Roll half marathon is coming up in 2 weeks. Did it 2 years ago, it was a good weekend with a good crowd. More fit girls go and they still do party to a certain extent before and definitely do AFTER the race.

Post: #64

(11-03-2014 01:34 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  A two-set is looking to hook up. A group of girls screaming "wooooooo" and taking selfies doesn't give a shit about any of the men in the room.

Great point. I pulled a two set back to my room, and another girl I talked to and kissed was in a two-set, from what I could tell.

I wouldn't say only go after two sets, but like Speakeasy said, attention whoring is exponentially more likely among big groups of girls and mixed groups.

A couple years ago, I was living with a couple guys. One went to a school in the south, was a fratty, kind Southern guy. He and his college buddy went to Vegas with girls they went to school with, and one of the guys hooked up with one of the cute girls.

Also, in the hotel room next to mine, it sounded like there were two guys and two girls who came as friends to party in Vegas. So this big mixed group arrangement is extremely common here. It's not just a cockblock logistically. It's a psychological cockblock. Girls are just not primed to desire and fornicate with strange men when they're rolling with men from their tribe. Guys in the mixed group, if they don't have a girl to hookup with, may make half-assed attempts at approaching, but otherwise don't pose much threat. If they get play, it's when everyone goes to their rooms and "one thing lead to another."

Drazen, I stumbled on the Lavo brunch by accident, and the talent was insane. Totally regret not going to that - also not really sure how to get into it without getting a table. Best concentration of talent, not to mention solidly drunk girls, in all of Vegas that I saw.

Surrender is a great budget option, XS is probably the best but pricier for entry ($35-40 vs $90). Haven't been to Hakkasan, but I don't hear great things about it. Surrender and XS especially have talent, they're just not that DTF, at least this time of year. Marquee nightclub was ghetto/trashy the one time I was there, where I spent most of my time outside. Drai's was terrible, although that was on a Thursday night - they cordoned off the outside and there were no quiet gathering spaces, just the loud ass dance floor. From what I've heard, SLS Life is not doing too well, and also lacks a quieter outside area, which is essential for a guy like me that has a softer voice - noise levels very frequently determine if a girl digs me or not.

Hakkasan Group is opening Omnia at Caesar's. It will be the next top tier club, on a par with XS and Hakkasan.

I'm thinking I might stay at The Linq Hotel or The Flamingo - both supposedly get a fair amount of young people, and should have good pool setups come Spring. The Vegas princesses I talk about generally stay at pricier hotels, so these budget spots could be good for meeting more down to earth chicks.

Post: #65

Generally, you can't get in as a guy without a table. Their table minimums are really high too. The talent is A+ though and the girls get down. When we got in line for our table, the ratio of girls to guys was like 80:20 and they were all super hot.

I think sometimes even if you have the money, they won't let guys in who just flash money I think the hosts have to like your vibe or they'll just sell your table to someone else. I remember when we went the host straight up told us they were going to increase the table minimum of the guys next to us by $1000 and they did.

Post: #66

I think another problem in Vegas is the locals in the scene. They control the venues, all the girls who are locals know them and all the girls coming into town know the locals from instagram/facebook/etc. They have the highest social value in the club, even more than some of the celebrity guests that come in. Its getting social-circle centric.

Post: #67

One other thing I've been doing lately is finding out exactly who is DJing that night. If its a top tier A-lister like Calvin Harris/Tiesto then you're fighting an uphill battle. I find the mid tier open format DJs and lesser known EDM DJs and guys who do a lot of crowd interaction generally gets a less standoffish crowd of females. If the DJ isn't the main attraction, the girls are there to drink and get laid. The thing is, the DJ has to be very engaging with the audience as a whole, having them yell, having them sing the drop, shit like that.

Post: #68

Agreed on the big name DJ thing. If Tiesto is playing go to a different club.

But going to Surrender and Tao? Surrender is completely empty aside from the occasional Wednesday night. And Tao still has its Thursdays, but on the weekend it's all Asian. The math nerd kind.

As far as avoiding table fees and cover goes, get there early, right at 10pm when it's empty. Then immediately get the stamp and leave so when you come back you aren't losing your buzz waiting in line.

I typically hit the clubs with a good amount of drinks in me so a lot of the time I don’t get more. But if I get my two double redbull/greygooses, thats 4 shots of vodka pounded quickly so that’s usually enough for me. But it depends on your situation and the timeframe in which you’re out. I’m in Vegas often enough these days for work reasons that it’s been a while since I’ve really gone at it hardcore. So if I’m in the club shortly before 11, I’m looking to pull hard between 11:30-12:30. I don’t want to be in a Vegas club more than a few hours. I’ve noticed that in Vegas if I’m in a club beyond two hours it’s because I haven’t been diligent in approaching, at which point I’m better off just leaving and not wasting more time.

I think most guys identify a “feel” at what makes them most effective in various environments. Mine is that I start drinking early, a few drinks before dinner, then eat, then I’m sure to leave a couple of hours for drinking before I hit the club. Depending on who I’m with I’ll then decide how and where I’ll do the drinking. For example if I’m with guys who do work for me at tradeshows and I have to foot the bill, I’ll buy a couple of bottles at ABC stores and we’ll predrink in my room. If I’m with friends or associates who can afford it, I’ll predrink at the purple bar at the entrance to Cosmo (that place is one of my favorites—I’ve pulled from there quite early in the night on two separate visits).

If I don’t want to drink in my room and I don’t want to spurge on the predrink, I’ll hang out at a video poker machine that they have at bars and drink. These places give excellent value for money. I’ll hand the bartender a ten dollar tip, at the same time slip some money in the video poker machine, and then order my first greygoose and whatever. After each drink I’ll tip a buck or two, and after two hours I’ll be pretty smashed. I won’t touch the video poker machine, and when I’m done I’ll eject the money and cash in the voucher for whatever amount that I put in it originally. Two places I know that have these video poker bars are Caesars and Harrahs. There aren’t usually any good chicks that hang out at the video poker bars, so it’s strictly for getting drunk before the club.

Post: #69

"But going to Surrender and Tao? Surrender is completely empty aside from the occasional Wednesday night. And Tao still has its Thursdays, but on the weekend it's all Asian. The math nerd kind."

So what do you suggest? Drai's? Can't really think of anything that is better than Surrender yet has small time DJs.

Also you can buy presale tickets and arrive at 11-1130 pm and get in without issue. That's been my experience.

Post: #70

Surrender's ambiance is awesome. But all the hot chicks are in those cabanas which are roped off. There's the small dancefloor which is loud and claustrophobic. And on the concourse where the pools are, I've never seen much talent. Especially at this time of year when the club is pretty much empty. Surrender was the shit when it opened, but now the few hot girls seem to be confined to the cabanas and dancing on stage in the little dancefloor room. Has your experience there been different?

My goto places are still XS and Marquee. Sure there are plenty of reasons not to like them but they

a) have the largest talent pools due to their size

b) attract the most tourists (non socal girls) due to their name recognition

My indicator of differentiating between tourist girls vs socal girls is this--if they're moving around they're generally tourists. The "vegas princesses" (great way to refer to them BTW) all seem plastered to the corner of some table.

And the main reasons I like XS is because they easily comp any group of 6 hot girls a table and because the tables are accessible. What differentiates XS is that the tables are very accessible through that middle row, and if you hit up some chicks who are at a table by themselves you don't have to worry about some conflict arising because a dude bought the table.

If you don't mind a sea of 6s and 7s then clubs like Tryst or the one in Paris (I forget the name) can be good. They're packed on the weekends and you won't find a single vegas princess in those. The girls who end up at those clubs are true tourists--they have no connections and don't want to waste two hours of their vacation sitting in line. Also the tables at these places are mostly empty aside from a few dolts with no chicks who may have bought a table because they didn't know any better.

But part of what makes Vegas be Vegas is being able to rawdog some insanely hot blonde and never see her again, and your blacked out state leaving you with nothing but a vague memory of "damn that bitch was hot."

Post: #71

"If you don't mind a sea of 6s and 7s then clubs like Tryst or the one in Paris (I forget the name) can be good."

You're thinking of Chateau. Just curious, why does Tryst get packed when Surrender is empty-ish? They're around the same price for getting in. Also, do these clubs let men in free if they bring an equal number of girls?

It sounds like Vegas was great when SoCal girls were just getting started on it, but now it's just the new normal, and the clams have closed. Offering more of the same, slightly bigger and showier clubs and spectacles than before is not going to change things. On the one hand Vegas is a city of reinvention, so it's always worth keeping tabs on its latest shape. But on the other, it's a victim of circumstance, and as goes American girls, so goes the Vegas scene.

Post: #72

Why is Tryst much busier than Surrender? My guess would be because it has a much bigger dance area, but I really don't know. Tryst is fuckin big and was the main club in Vegas in the newest and coolest hotel at the time. Surrender opened after XS and was always overshadowed by it.

As far as guys getting in for free if they bring girls, I've never gotten in free aside from weekdays (with a Nevada ID). But never on a weekend and I've gone with 2 guy 6 girl ratios. I once went to Marquee when it had recently opened with a friend who was a VIP host at Tao, and he was able to get in free by showing his business card. It was three of us dudes that went with no chicks, and the VIP host tried to get us all comped but the bouncer only comped him but did let us all skip the line. The line would've been hours so it was still nice.

After that I'd thought about getting similar VIP host cards printed myself so I could skip lines and covers at any Vegas club. Never got around to it but it'd be a clever hack.

I'd be curious what Vegas would be like during Coachella. Since it's in the middle of summer there's no way it would be empty. Yet the Socal princesses aren't going to be there. A potential gem?

Post: #73

Coachella is around Spring Break time, not summer. I don't think it will necessarily be a popping weekend in Vegas. If I were you, I'd probably post up around the pool parties in Palm Springs and try to get a hotel room but not actually go to Coachella. Much better option IMO.

Last time I was at Tryst, it was an African American/HipHop crowd. I think it was due to Jermaine DuPree spinning that night though. I've had some good times but I honestly expect them to rebrand it in the next two years, its just not a hot spot like it was. The layout is cool though and we used to always get the table under the waterfall with a half bed, good times.

There was a rumor I heard that back in the day, the promotors would look at the ratios of asians at XS. If there were too many, they would start telling large groups they were at capacity or the tables were sold and then pushed them to Tryst. I'm not sure if this was before or after Surrender, I think it was after Surrender opened and was still hot.

Post: #74

Was just in Vegas this weekend as well. Definitely noticed some of the things you guys are talking about, but I also feel it was like that throughout this summer as well. Plenty of "Vegas princesses" taking selfies and hoping to be pulled up to Dan Bilzerian's table (who was at Marquee on Friday btw) while ignoring every guy in the club who they don't know. I've never experienced the Vegas club scene in the mid-2000s, but I guess this is what we're dealing with now, especially at some of the top clubs.

Saturday night was interesting - we got to Hakkasan with our group (even ratio) at around 1130pm, and the line must've been 1,000 people... at least. I've never seen a line like this; even 8+ girls were being turned away. I went to Hakkasan once last spring and arrived early, and by the end it was the most absurdly crowded club that I had ever seen. Instead, we went to The Bank, a club in the Bellagio that we all got into for $20 with a free drink, and it wasn't half bad. My buddy pulled a 7.5 blonde out of there. The talent at Hakkasan was off the charts, but without tables + bottle service its pretty difficult to pull. I don't see a reason to go there for the time being.

In regard to getting in free, we were allowed into Tryst for free on Thursday night with an even ratio in our group through a promoter. The street promoters tend to be shit (and its pretty unwise to bank your whole night on whether a promoter is legit), but every now and then you find a gem. This summer I also got into Light for free with a promoter (with a mid-tier DJ playing) despite having more guys than girls in our group.

Might hang back from Vegas until Spring as well. New Years admission is going to be $100+ at just about every club, and the outside area of XS (my favorite area for approaches) is much less inviting when its 40 degrees out there.

Post: #75

I was talking to a buddy of mine tonight, who went to a hotspot in LA Friday night (Halloween) that's usually packed, and it was dead. He speculated it was because there were a few big festivals going on, plus all the halloween house parties.

It made me wonder if Vegas clubbing is becoming passé for the thrill seeking chicks, who may have since moved on to festivals and such. Don't have enough evidence to say. As I see it, the clubs don't offer anything new, and haven't in a little while. All they offer is more and more of the same thing. The "zeitgeist" has moved on perhaps.