Post: #76

I don't like hearing Samseau say that the country is heading toward a race war, but after these two incidents back to back combined with the illegal alien amnesty, I'm now feeling a bit more insecure in my view. I also heard that some black panthers were planning to assassinate the Ferguson police chief and bomb the Gateway Arch. The Black Panthers have denied this and I don't know if the facts of this story are true, but if they are, shit is going to get ugly REAL quick if black nationalist groups start taking on Palestinian tactics against whites.

Post: #77

(12-03-2014 06:45 PM)aSimpNamedBrokeback Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 06:32 PM)DrewP Wrote:  This should just go down as a lesson to avoid choke holds in the future.

CBS news says NYPD didn't allow choke holds anymore. If thats true than I wonder how the grand jury came to their conclusion.

That really does make the guy look bad if true. Manslaughter would then be debatable, and certainly some form of hefty disciplinary action would be warranted.

(12-03-2014 07:05 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I don't like hearing Samseau say that the country is heading toward a race war, but after these two incidents back to back combined with the illegal alien amnesty, I'm now feeling a bit more insecure in my view. I also heard that some black panthers were planning to assassinate the Ferguson police chief and bomb the Gateway Arch. The Black Panthers have denied this and I don't know if the facts of this story are true, but if they are, shit is going to get ugly REAL quick if black nationalist groups start taking on Palestinian tactics against whites.

The Black Panthers had a bounty out on George Zimmerman. All this stuff is nothing new. There is no impending "race war" as much as the media would love to start one.

Post: #78

I wasn't convinced by the Ferguson situation. The lack of video evidence was a factor for me there.

This non-indictment, however, is quite a bit more troubling.

(12-03-2014 05:27 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Lotta folks want to blame Eric, they want to blame the cop, they want to blame the DA.

12 average NYer's saw that footage and didn't think that the prosecution had a case good enough to put in front of a judge and jury.

This happened in the most liberal and diverse city in America.

That's all I'm going to say.

WIA

That should tell you all you need to know about the state of race relations in the modern USA. Many naively concluded that the coming of Obama would signify some sort of magnificent transcendence for American race relations, a turning point at which the nation would truly move toward the creation of a more cohesive whole.

I said then that this was foolery, and I've been proven correct. Racial tensions have only increased under Obama. The distrust and animosity between different groups (particularly whites and blacks) is rising and will continue to do so. This society is becoming increasingly polarized along racial lines. We move further and further away from cohesion every day, and incidents like this serve as especially powerful catalysts for that movement.

Things are bad, and they are only going to get worse.

Post: #79

(12-03-2014 07:05 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I don't like hearing Samseau say that the country is heading toward a race war, but after these two incidents back to back combined with the illegal alien amnesty, I'm now feeling a bit more insecure in my view. I also heard that some black panthers were planning to assassinate the Ferguson police chief and bomb the Gateway Arch. The Black Panthers have denied this and I don't know if the facts of this story are true, but if they are, shit is going to get ugly REAL quick if black nationalist groups start taking on Palestinian tactics against whites.

To even add more to it, 17 states filed suit on Obama's immigration decision.

The races are being polarized (Excelsior) and the hand behind the curtain is brilliantly dividing and conquering.

Post: #80

(12-03-2014 07:27 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  I wasn't convinced by the Ferguson situation. The lack of video evidence was a factor for me there.

This non-indictment, however, is quite a bit more troubling.

(12-03-2014 05:27 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Lotta folks want to blame Eric, they want to blame the cop, they want to blame the DA.

12 average NYer's saw that footage and didn't think that the prosecution had a case good enough to put in front of a judge and jury.

This happened in the most liberal and diverse city in America.

That's all I'm going to say.

WIA

That should tell you all you need to know about the state of race relations in the modern USA. Many naively concluded that the coming of Obama would signify some sort of magnificent transcendence for American race relations, a turning point at which the nation would truly move toward the creation of a more cohesive whole.

I said then that this was foolery, and I've been proven correct. Racial tensions have only increased under Obama. The distrust and animosity between different groups (particularly whites and blacks) is rising and will continue to do so. This society is becoming increasingly polarized along racial lines. We move further and further away from cohesion every day, and incidents like this serve as especially powerful catalysts for that movement.

Things are bad, and they are only going to get worse.

I don't think things are actually that bad.

Fact is if you simply go on wikipedia and look at list of racial riots in the U.S. you'll find that things have been a lot worse. What makes it so big is the influence of the 24 hrs news cycle and social media. However, that's not what's scaring me. I'm more frightened of the police state implications, that people are just passively ignoring for the sake of wedge issues.

It seems that on the right and the left, we are lacking so much in intellectual foresight that we are being led to a police state, no matter where you look. The left want a police state for the sake of social justice, and the right wants a police state to prevent anarchy and a repeat of the 60's and 70's movement. No one argues the rights of individual citizens: which is the principle in which the bill of rights was based on. As a citizen, Garner was murdered, and the worst thing is, there's yet to be any evidence that Eric Garner was actually selling any of the cigarettes that led to him losing his life.

Post: #81

(12-03-2014 07:05 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I don't like hearing Samseau say that the country is heading toward a race war, but after these two incidents back to back combined with the illegal alien amnesty, I'm now feeling a bit more insecure in my view. I also heard that some black panthers were planning to assassinate the Ferguson police chief and bomb the Gateway Arch. The Black Panthers have denied this and I don't know if the facts of this story are true, but if they are, shit is going to get ugly REAL quick if black nationalist groups start taking on Palestinian tactics against whites.

Palestine?

Come on man.

Post: #82

(12-03-2014 07:41 PM)Jevioso Wrote:  Fact is if you simply go on wikipedia and look at list of racial riots in the U.S. you'll find that things have been a lot worse. What makes it so big is the influence of the 24 hrs news cycle and social media. However, that's not what's scaring me. I'm more frightened of the police state implications, that people are just passively ignoring for the sake of wedge issues.

It seems that on the right and the left, we are lacking so much in intellectual foresight that we are being led to a police state, no matter where you look. The left want a police state for the sake of social justice, and the right wants a police state to prevent anarchy and a repeat of the 60's and 70's movement. No one argues the rights of individual citizens: which is the principle in which the bill of rights was based on. As a citizen, Garner was murdered, and the worst thing is, there's yet to be any evidence that Eric Garner was actually selling any of the cigarettes that led to him losing his life.

Completely agree with the first statement, everything is magnified x10000's times.

I agree couldn't of said it any better myself.

Post: #83

(12-03-2014 07:27 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  That should tell you all you need to know about the state of race relations in the modern USA. Many naively concluded that the coming of Obama would signify some sort of magnificent transcendence for American race relations, a turning point at which the nation would truly move toward the creation of a more cohesive whole.

I said then that this was foolery, and I've been proven correct. Racial tensions have only increased under Obama.

I agree. I think it is entirely due to white conservatives fueled by the Tea Party. It wasn't white liberals and it wasn't blacks. The rising racial tensions are due to the type of whites that feel they are "losing their country" because of a black president. All anyone has to do is look at youtube comments, Heartiste or the type of racist propaganda and imagery that gets distributed in right-wing circles.

http://aattp.org/20-of-the-most-racist-t...cal-signs/

http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/stud...-likely-ex

You will not find equivalently vicious propaganda from Obama-supporting blacks against whites.

Edit --

I'm not saying any white that's in the Tea Party is racist, or that their official platform is racist or that one cannot support the Tea Party without being racist. But at the very least we can admit that there is a racist, reactionary faction amongst their ranks that used the birther nonsense and spread rumors that he is Muslim in order to appeal to the emotions of whites that are scared of the changing demographics.





...and then people wonder why blacks vote Democrat.

Post: #84

^Democrats get crushed in the midterms and might lose the 2016 election that was supposed to be theirs. Suddenly all this racial tension rises up in cases of police brutality. The cops are just a government arm. Democrats are trying to swing the election.

Republicans are just as bad too, especially establishment Republicans. They would rile things up in different ways. For them it was the War on Terror.

Keep the eye on the prize. It's us against them. They want it to be us against us. Obama is just as bad as Bush. And yes they are both bad.

Post: #85

Post: #86

(12-03-2014 08:54 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  Republicans are just as bad too, especially establishment Republicans. They would rile things up in different ways. For them it was the War on Terror.

War on Terror...you gotta say it like George W. Bush: "Warr'n'terr"

Post: #87

It's not a good sign Al Sharpton is in NYC to provide his guidance. I'll own it, I prefer MSNBC over the other news channels but can't stand him and a few of the other tools who get a little riled up over nonsense sometimes. Al Sharpton isn't needed there, he doesn't make it better. He makes it worse.

Post: #88

Grand Jury Fails To Indict White NYPD Cop; Protesters Close Roads In NYC, Multiple Arrests - Live Feed:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-03...death-case

Post: #89

Post: #90

(12-03-2014 07:41 PM)Jevioso Wrote:  ....there's yet to be any evidence that Eric Garner was actually selling any of the cigarettes that led to him losing his life.

...except for his numerous prior arrests for selling them. The guy had a side hustle, and New York had a silly law.

Post: #91

(12-03-2014 09:59 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 07:41 PM)Jevioso Wrote:  ....there's yet to be any evidence that Eric Garner was actually selling any of the cigarettes that led to him losing his life.

...except for his numerous prior arrests for selling them. The guy had a side hustle, and New York had a silly law.

All that means is that it was probable. I mean the guy is dead, you'd figure that at least they would have something to show why he got killed outside of hearsay.

Post: #92

(12-03-2014 06:32 PM)DrewP Wrote:  I haven't looked at the testimony, but from the video I have to believe the guy got off due to lack of intent. No one could reasonably expect choke-holding a guy for a few seconds would seriously harm him.

That's not the way the law is supposed to work.

"Intent follows the bullet."

If you are outside of your house celebrating New Year's and you shoot a gun up into the air, and someone gets injured or killed by one of the stray bullets, the police are going to come after you.

You can't argue that you didn't believe anyone would be harmed.

This cop can't argue that he put a guy in a choke-hold and didn't believe he would die so on that basis, his belief, he should not be charged with a crime.

Ray Rice would have been charged with murder if his wife had suffered a fatal head injury from hitting that elevator rail after he punched her.

I mean we keep talking about issues of this matter, and people want to talk about a topic that is inherently irrational in a rational manner, and it just doesn't work, I mean we're talking about this shit as if it's brand new, like wait, wow, I didn't know things like this happened to people.

This cop broke protocol and as a result another man is dead, and even though it was determined that this man's death was a homicide, somehow a society full of "christians" constantly looks at matters of these sorts and says, it's nobody's fault.

Post: #93

(12-03-2014 11:25 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 06:32 PM)DrewP Wrote:  I haven't looked at the testimony, but from the video I have to believe the guy got off due to lack of intent. No one could reasonably expect choke-holding a guy for a few seconds would seriously harm him.

That's not the way the law is supposed to work.

"Intent follows the bullet."

If you are outside of your house celebrating New Year's and you shoot a gun up into the air, and someone gets injured or killed by one of the stray bullets, the police are going to come after you.

You can't argue that you didn't believe anyone would be harmed.

This cop can't argue that he put a guy in a choke-hold and didn't believe he would die so on that basis, his belief, he should not be charged with a crime.

Ray Rice would have been charged with murder if his wife had suffered a fatal head injury from hitting that elevator rail after he punched her.

I understand what you're saying, but you can't compare a police officer affecting an arrest on a uncooperative suspect with a guy firing a gun in the air or Ray Rice punching his wife. The latter are people performing inherently criminal acts, whereas it's a police officer's job to use force in such a situation. And while it seems the chokehold violated protocol, that's not the same as it being an illegal maneuver.

I'm not sure what the mens rea of the charged offense is under New York law, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did in fact have to establish intent, or at the very least gross negligence. And that's going to be hard to do when we're talking about a brief chokehold on a suspect twice your size who is resisting arrest.

This is a very sad case, and the officer should face some serious disciplinary consequences, but I'm not convinced he should get jail time. Would this choke have hurt someone who wasn't a grossly obese asthmatic?

EDIT
The initially rage-inducing thing about this case is the disproportion between the offense (selling cigarettes) and the outcome (dying alone on the pavement). And maybe the tactics used by the police - violent swarming without warning - should be challenged. But then again, I can understand why cops would want to immediately subdue anyone who resists arrest, so as to minimize danger to themselves.

In the end I think this is just a tragedy without a real villain

Post: #94

This is scandalous! These criminals must be brought to justice for their coward crime.
If justice is not done, then things migh explode into a full blown civil war.

Police officers are human beings, therefore like any other person subject to the same laws. They are not above the laws. Nobody is!

Police officers' role and duty is to serve and protect. Not to brutalize and kill innocent people!

Justice must be served and these criminals must be held responsible for their crime. Like any citizen would be!

R.I.P. Garner!

Post: #95

(12-04-2014 12:02 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Police officers' role and duty is to serve and protect.

That's no longer the case, at least in the US. American cops have moved away from the traditional idea of policing, which involves patrolling communities and co-operating with residents, to the more extreme mentality of "law enforcement", where each and every person is seen as a potential criminal. Even the safest and most upscale neighborhoods in the US are now guarded by these "enforcers" whose favorite activity is to hide out in residential driveways with a speed gun and stopping secretaries on their way to work.

Post: #96

delete. double post

Post: #97

(12-04-2014 12:02 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  This is scandalous! These criminals must be brought to justice for their coward crime.
If justice is not done, then things migh explode into a full blown civil war.

Police officers are human beings, therefore like any other person subject to the same laws. They are not above the laws. Nobody is!

Police officers' role and duty is to serve and protect. Not to brutalize and kill innocent people!

Justice must be served and these criminals must be held responsible for their crime. Like any citizen would be!

R.I.P. Garner!

But they are above the law. In fact, they're treated far better than most people by the system and there are laws on the books that prove this.

Cops are a whole other class, folks. They're like the knights of old.

Hell, if you kill a police dog in some states that's counted as murdering a law enforcement agent. If they kill your dog, however, it's "tough luck, buddy" and you're out a pet.

Look people, they are the blunt instrument the politicians use to keep the populace in line, enforce their fucking edicts (unconstitutional or not), and collect their taxes for them. It's that simple.

They have no duty to protect the individual. That means you.

Unfortunately we have a bunch of morons in this country who think they can have their cake and eat it too. You want big government and to give up your classic civic responsibilities? You're gonna get the big left boot of progress kicking you right in the balls.

Post: #98

(12-03-2014 11:58 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:25 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 06:32 PM)DrewP Wrote:  I haven't looked at the testimony, but from the video I have to believe the guy got off due to lack of intent. No one could reasonably expect choke-holding a guy for a few seconds would seriously harm him.

That's not the way the law is supposed to work.

"Intent follows the bullet."

If you are outside of your house celebrating New Year's and you shoot a gun up into the air, and someone gets injured or killed by one of the stray bullets, the police are going to come after you.

You can't argue that you didn't believe anyone would be harmed.

This cop can't argue that he put a guy in a choke-hold and didn't believe he would die so on that basis, his belief, he should not be charged with a crime.

Ray Rice would have been charged with murder if his wife had suffered a fatal head injury from hitting that elevator rail after he punched her.

I understand what you're saying, but you can't compare a police officer affecting an arrest on a uncooperative suspect with a guy firing a gun in the air or Ray Rice punching his wife. The latter are people performing inherently criminal acts, whereas it's a police officer's job to use force in such a situation. And while it seems the chokehold violated protocol, that's not the same as it being an illegal maneuver.

I'm not sure what the mens rea of the charged offense is under New York law, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did in fact have to establish intent, or at the very least gross negligence. And that's going to be hard to do when we're talking about a brief chokehold on a suspect twice your size who is resisting arrest.

This is a very sad case, and the officer should face some serious disciplinary consequences, but I'm not convinced he should get jail time. Would this choke have hurt someone who wasn't a grossly obese asthmatic?

EDIT
The rage-inducing thing about this case is the disproportion between the offense (selling cigarettes) and the outcome (dying alone on the pavement). And maybe the tactics used by the police - violent swarming without warning - should be challenged. But then again, I can understand why cops would want to immediately subdue anyone who resists arrest, so as to minimize danger to themselves.

In the end I think this is just a tragedy without a real villain

"What disturbs me is the sudden escalation and swarming over such an insignificant crime...."

Nothing sudden about it, it looks like they had a LENGTHY discussion about it, the guy just didn't want to go peacefully. If you're going to refuse to cooperate long enough for a squad of back up to arrive for the "Non-compliant 350lb guy", you're going to be dealing with the squad sent to deal with you. He should have just let them cuff him if he didn't feel like fighting with them. There was literally enough time to make a dozen arrests in the time they spent arguing.

Post: #99

(07-20-2014 08:35 PM)HawkWrites Wrote:  

(07-20-2014 06:43 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  American cops are the law enforcement version of American women: grossly inflated egos, completely unreasonable, and fat/out of shape. And you should do your best to avoid them at any cost, just as you would with these women.

That's a gross generalization that typically doesn't ring true unless you're being a dick to them in the first place. There are going to be bad people in any group but the majority of the ones I know are interested in protecting their community and are actually cordial to you.

I've gotten hooked up for scary shit in the past (no I didn't do it and I was released) but there aren't too many times you confront your own mortality than when you have seven officers with 9mm handguns pointed at your chest.

The fact of the matter was, though, after their initial show of force and me being completely nice to them and following all their orders they showed me the exact same amount of respect. Hell, the arresting officer and I were even cracking jokes and telling stories to each other about our life experiences by the squad car while I was standing there in cuffs. I de-escalated everything nicely and all of us got along well. It was pretty much all smiles and laughter the entire way through since I knew I hadn't done anything and once it was all said-and-done there were no hard feelings.

Post: #100

(12-03-2014 08:05 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 07:27 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  That should tell you all you need to know about the state of race relations in the modern USA. Many naively concluded that the coming of Obama would signify some sort of magnificent transcendence for American race relations, a turning point at which the nation would truly move toward the creation of a more cohesive whole.

I said then that this was foolery, and I've been proven correct. Racial tensions have only increased under Obama.

I agree. I think it is entirely due to white conservatives fueled by the Tea Party. It wasn't white liberals and it wasn't blacks. The rising racial tensions are due to the type of whites that feel they are "losing their country" because of a black president. All anyone has to do is look at youtube comments, Heartiste or the type of racist propaganda and imagery that gets distributed in right-wing circles.

http://aattp.org/20-of-the-most-racist-t...cal-signs/

http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/stud...-likely-ex

You will not find equivalently vicious propaganda from Obama-supporting blacks against whites.

Edit --

I'm not saying any white that's in the Tea Party is racist, or that their official platform is racist or that one cannot support the Tea Party without being racist. But at the very least we can admit that there is a racist, reactionary faction amongst their ranks that used the birther nonsense and spread rumors that he is Muslim in order to appeal to the emotions of whites that are scared of the changing demographics.





...and then people wonder why blacks vote Democrat.

I would agree with this. Obama has put up with a lot of shit since he came into office when it comes to racial discrimination. Many feel like a lot of the hecklers and blatantly forms of disrespect are motivated by racism coming from people who don't want a Black man as their president. From questioning his Americaness with the whole birther thing which there was no evidence supporting that he was an illegal alien from Kenya to shutting the government down

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monk...down-deal/


to congressman Joe Wilson from South Carolina shouting "You Lie" to Obama's State of the Union Address.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/...ed-racism/

To Governor Jan Brewer of Arizona pointing her finger at Obama's face which was a clear form of disrespect

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/...IARXvldVlc

Also Rush Limbaugh put forward this song in the radio:










So I definitely agree that a lot of the Obama backlash is motivated by racism. The funny thing about all of this that I see is that it can all be traced to immigration. The birther thing is immigrant related. The most controversial point of Obamacare had to do whether illegals were going to be covered by it or not. Jan Brewer pointed her finger because she disagreed with him on immigration. Race relations in America have gotten worse in my opinion.