Post: #1

A perfect example of this rioting in Buenos Aires after the final (video here)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28290186

If your way of thinking is

1) We have established ourselves as one of the best two teams in the world (and there are approx 200 countries in the world so that's basically the top 1%)

2) We had a long run and, thanks to this team we were able to dream (unlike previous world cups)

Then you can be happy and proud and can thank the national team.

If your way of thinking is that you were ENTITLED to win this WC then you are going to be very angry because you feel that something you should have has been taken away from you.

The point is that the creation of the emotions of either pride or anger depends entirely on your own thinking and you create your own emotions as a result.

Agree?

Post: #2

(07-14-2014 04:03 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  A perfect example of this rioting in Buenos Aires after the final (video here)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28290186

If your way of thinking is

1) We have established ourselves as one of the best two teams in the world (and there are approx 200 countries in the world so that's basically the top 1%)

2) We had a long run and, thanks to this team we were able to dream (unlike previous world cups)

Then you can be happy and proud and can thank the national team.

If your way of thinking is that you were ENTITLED to win this WC then you are going to be very angry because you feel that something you should have has been taken away from you.

The point is that the creation of the emotions of either pride or anger depends entirely on your own thinking and you create your own emotions as a result.

Agree?

Yes, this is the fundamental insight of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) and rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT). How you think about things determines how you feel. A very powerful insight that can help you with gaming girls as well as other areas of your life.

More info found here:

/thread-28873....light=rebt

Here's an example from the thread of how to apply it to game:

Quote:Say two guys (Rational Ralph and Emotional Ed) experience approaching a girl in the mall, and the girl in both cases says “ew creep!”

Ed thinks “It’s horrible this girl called me a creep! Maybe I am a creep! I feel like shit about myself and I’m going to stop approaching girls because I feel so hurt.” Ed goes home and sulks the rest of the weekend, and gives up approaching girls, or when he tries to approach girls again, he gives off a nervous vibe because he is scared he might be called a “creep” again, which wounds him so much.

Ralph thinks: “Ha, she called me a creep! That’s a little over the top! No big deal. You run in to some kooky ones sometimes when you approach enough. Of course I don’t think of myself as a creep and won’t buy into what she said. Maybe I did do something to turn her off though. My approach was a little ham-fisted now that I analyze it. I can think of a few adjustments I can do next time to smooth out my body language which may give me better results. Let’s see who else here I can approach today so I can put these new learning’s into practice.” Ralph then approaches five other girls that day and ends up getting digits from one who he fornicates with a week later.

So the same event happened to these two guys (getting called a “creep”) but Ed gets all butthurt and adversely changes his behavior (stops approaching or gets nervous about approaching) while Ralph doesn’t get bothered at all, learns a few things to improve his game, and approaches more girls and gets laid. How they feel and how they behave is due to how they think! Ed feels miserable and sulks, and Ralph feels good and productive. Ralph gets what he wants, and Ed sabotages his goals. All because of how they think about the same event. And how you think about things is a choice. More on that as the book unfolds.

The girl didn’t make Ed feel upset, instead Ed upset himself by buying into the girl’s creep comment, and blowing it way out of proportion.

You might have thinking habits more like Ed than Ralph. You can radically change your thinking to be more like Ralph, but it takes a lot of force and work

Post: #3

(07-14-2014 05:08 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Yes, this is the fundamental insight of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) and rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT).

Very interesting. I am going to look into this stuff more.

Post: #4

In general, I second Dusty's post, and it is impossible to overstate how superb his REBT thread is; I highly recommend it to everyone. The ideas of REBT and CBT are exceptionally useful in day to day life; they are as deceptively simple as they are in some way deep and counterintuitive. There are few things that a man can do that are more conducive to long-term happiness than to master these ideas and techniques, and apply them in one's life.

However, I have a different view of the example in the OP.

One of the cruel and glorious qualities of sports is that it is very much an all or nothing endeavor. One team and one team only is crowned as champion; everyone else goes home as the loser. This harsh and beautiful structure is what lends sports its drama and its great appeal to the hearts and minds of strong men. It is an essential part of the meaning and the point of a competition like the World Cup.

It would be false to the glory of sports to attempt to "take pride" in second place or be in any way happy about it. No: the losing team leaves with the leaden taste of defeat; its true fans feel nothing but the utter desolation of being so close to the prize, yet failing to reach it. That's how it is, and that's how it should be. It would cheapen the entire enterprise, and take away from the terrible glory of the one and only winner, if some pretense was made that there are consolation prizes to be had. There are none, and no one should affect to feel otherwise.

There are things like these in life, not many but they do exist: only the one right outcome matters; everything short of it is a loss. There are some endeavors where getting 99% of the way there is worth nothing at all -- only complete and total victory has any meaning. If a man should enter into one of these terrible endeavors, he must not deny its true nature; he must not pretend that getting most of the way there is good enough, or that settling for less is the better part of valor. If he fails to achieve the ultimate end, he must let himself feel the true weight of defeat, emptiness and desolation; he must risk this, because that risk is necessary to lend such endless sweetness to the triumph of those who get there.

None of this contradicts the insights of REBT. Most of life does not consist of such all-or-nothing struggles, nor should it; in the great majority of cases, learning to think and feel like "Rational Ralph" is the way to go. As for the sports fan, he should of course realize the simple truth that while his team's defeat is dispiriting, desolating, and irreversible, he still has a life outside of the team's fate, and that life goes on. He took part, vicariously, in this struggle, and lost completely; but in his life, he lives to fight another day.

Post: #5

I just describe it as "people are scum". I don't think my mental process is very much like the one described in CBT and REBT info in this thread, yet it would never occur to me to get angry about it, let alone show it.

In other words, I don't mind people having inane thoughts as long as they are polite about it.

Post: #6

(07-14-2014 10:57 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  One of the cruel and glorious qualities of sports is that it is very much an all or nothing endeavor. One team and one team only is crowned as champion; everyone else goes home as the loser. This harsh and beautiful structure is what lends sports its drama and its great appeal to the hearts and minds of strong men. It is an essential part of the meaning and the point of a competition like the World Cup.

It would be false to the glory of sports to attempt to "take pride" in second place or be in any way happy about it. No: the losing team leaves with the leaden taste of defeat; its true fans feel nothing but the utter desolation of being so close to the prize, yet failing to reach it. That's how it is, and that's how it should be. It would cheapen the entire enterprise, and take away from the terrible glory of the one and only winner, if some pretense was made that there are consolation prizes to be had. There are none, and no one should affect to feel otherwise.

There are things like these in life, not many but they do exist: only the one right outcome matters; everything short of it is a loss. There are some endeavors where getting 99% of the way there is worth nothing at all -- only complete and total victory has any meaning. If a man should enter into one of these terrible endeavors, he must not deny its true nature; he must not pretend that getting most of the way there is good enough, or that settling for less is the better part of valor. If he fails to achieve the ultimate end, he must let himself feel the true weight of defeat, emptiness and desolation; he must risk this, because that risk is necessary to lend such endless sweetness to the triumph of those who get there.

None of this contradicts the insights of REBT. Most of life does not consist of such all-or-nothing struggles, nor should it; in the great majority of cases, learning to think and feel like "Rational Ralph" is the way to go. As for the sports fan, he should of course realize the simple truth that while his team's defeat is dispiriting, desolating, and irreversible, he still has a life outside of the team's fate, and that life goes on. He took part, vicariously, in this struggle, and lost completely; but in his life, he lives to fight another day.

This is my exact point. As Ellis points out in the book...

A
B
C

There is an action (team losing wc final) and there is a consequence (riot) but in between A and C there is b - Belief.

You believe for example that everyone who does not take the cup home is a loser and can only be devastated. That 2nd is nothing.

Another person might believe that establishing yourself as one of the top two teams on the planet is an achievement to be proud of and that a glorious run which generated so much happiness and pride (and beer sales) is a far greater achievement and makes for a more memorable and enjoyable WC than getting knocked out in the group stages without winning a match.

Your belief that everyone who does not take the cup home is a loser and can only be devastated. That 2nd is nothing. This is your choice and something that you have total control over.

Those that chose to change their way of thinking change their way of feeling.