Post: #101

(02-15-2015 10:34 PM)numanist Wrote:  I'm 23 years old and I graduated with a Bachelor's in accounting (3.3 cumulative GPA and 3.5 in the field). Currently, it has almost been two years since I graduated from the field. In all honesty, if I had to do college all over again I would veer away from accounting.

The job prospects are really limited and the work can be really mundane and boring. After graduating I spent countless hours sending in resumes and applications with very little to show for it - except 3 interviews. The interviews were with big corporations, non-profits, and one public accounting firm.

After many months of job searching I finally settled with a job that is in the IT field. Luckily, they took a chance on me in spite of my lack of knowledge in the field.

As of right now, I've been reluctantly filling out applications in the hopes that I land at least a 35k a year job. In the meantime, I've just been saving money living with my parents in order to build up my pocketbook.

My passion in the field is nil and I'm completely thinking about giving up and pursuing a different line of work. I've got friends that work in the lab doing testing. One of my friends got a job in accounting and he is currently doing biology work.

One of the friends I graduated with in accounting decided to forgo the field altogether. He too couldn't get a job in the field, in spite of being probably the smartest and most charismatic of all my classmates.

Since he decided to quit the accounting field, things couldn't be better for him. He currently resides in Sin City making lots of money day trading. A normal day for him is two hours, and he spends a good portion of his time eyeing dimes by the poolside.

Moral of the story: forge your own path and don't be dissuaded by job employers rejecting your applications. A good majority of HR types are complete schlubs or ditzes.

Numanist, I'm not sure you read my data sheet above. The shit talk in general about Accounting being "mundane and boring" is a myth. I also don't agree that the job prospects are limited. There are going to be other factors involved (eg. location for one). Again, covered in the data sheet.

Accounting jobs in reality are not like a trade or sales job in which there may be a specific set of skills across the board. However, there are jobs in Accounting that require a set of mundane and boring skills. These are the jobs you'll get if you go to a lower tier school and/or have a lower gpa as well as not have a CPA license. At these levels, you can generally expect to be cast out of the higher end jobs in Accounting that are not so mundane and boring. That's the red pill truth. However, that's the case in every profession, isn't it? We're talking about the notion of an "Accountant" versus a "Business Professional." They are two different people. The former will just have an "Accounting" background while latter also adds business acumen and social abilities.

Now, your friend can be the smartest and charismatic in the school, but the level of refinement required to succeed at the higher levels in the business world can be relegated to a niche in itself. That's not to say Bookkeepers are idiots. Just that you need train more to get more which shouldn't be surprising. Again, covered in the data sheet.

The "desk" accounting job you describe constitutes only a portion of the profession. And that portion just happens to be the portion that is disgraced in the world because most people just don't have the experience or knowledge that allows them to see the bigger picture.

While I appreciate your perspective, I think you are only looking in one corner of the profession and likely misunderstanding a lot of truths about the entire profession as a whole.

Post: #102

(02-21-2015 12:14 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 10:34 PM)numanist Wrote:  I'm 23 years old and I graduated with a Bachelor's in accounting (3.3 cumulative GPA and 3.5 in the field). Currently, it has almost been two years since I graduated from the field. In all honesty, if I had to do college all over again I would veer away from accounting.

The job prospects are really limited and the work can be really mundane and boring. After graduating I spent countless hours sending in resumes and applications with very little to show for it - except 3 interviews. The interviews were with big corporations, non-profits, and one public accounting firm.

After many months of job searching I finally settled with a job that is in the IT field. Luckily, they took a chance on me in spite of my lack of knowledge in the field.

As of right now, I've been reluctantly filling out applications in the hopes that I land at least a 35k a year job. In the meantime, I've just been saving money living with my parents in order to build up my pocketbook.

My passion in the field is nil and I'm completely thinking about giving up and pursuing a different line of work. I've got friends that work in the lab doing testing. One of my friends got a job in accounting and he is currently doing biology work.

One of the friends I graduated with in accounting decided to forgo the field altogether. He too couldn't get a job in the field, in spite of being probably the smartest and most charismatic of all my classmates.

Since he decided to quit the accounting field, things couldn't be better for him. He currently resides in Sin City making lots of money day trading. A normal day for him is two hours, and he spends a good portion of his time eyeing dimes by the poolside.

Moral of the story: forge your own path and don't be dissuaded by job employers rejecting your applications. A good majority of HR types are complete schlubs or ditzes.

Numanist, I'm not sure you read my data sheet above. The shit talk in general about Accounting being "mundane and boring" is a myth. I also don't agree that the job prospects are limited. There are going to be other factors involved (eg. location for one). Again, covered in the data sheet.

Accounting jobs in reality are not like a trade or sales job in which there may be a specific set of skills across the board. However, there are jobs in Accounting that require a set of mundane and boring skills. These are the jobs you'll get if you go to a lower tier school and/or have a lower gpa as well as not have a CPA license. At these levels, you can generally expect to be cast out of the higher end jobs in Accounting that are not so mundane and boring. That's the red pill truth. However, that's the case in every profession, isn't it? We're talking about the notion of an "Accountant" versus a "Business Professional." They are two different people. The former will just have an "Accounting" background while latter also adds business acumen and social abilities.

Now, your friend can be the smartest and charismatic in the school, but the level of refinement required to succeed at the higher levels in the business world can be relegated to a niche in itself. That's not to say Bookkeepers are idiots. Just that you need train more to get more which shouldn't be surprising. Again, covered in the data sheet.

The "desk" accounting job you describe constitutes only a portion of the profession. And that portion just happens to be the portion that is disgraced in the world because most people just don't have the experience or knowledge that allows them to see the bigger picture.

While I appreciate your perspective, I think you are only looking in one corner of the profession and likely misunderstanding a lot of truths about the entire profession as a whole.

Going to have to back Cobra here - I think there's something that you are missing. Public accounting is so much more than just "accounting" - you add business pieces to your responsibilities extremely fast. I think you'd be surprised.

Post: #103

(07-12-2014 04:21 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Cobra Wrote:That round table can be an interesting one and I can write a whole article about how that works.

Please do. I would read every word.

(07-13-2014 12:53 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 04:21 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Cobra Wrote:That round table can be an interesting one and I can write a whole article about how that works.

Please do. I would read every word.

I'd be very keen on this also. Especially if there's any similarity with Finance hiring.

Ask and ye shall receive: /thread-46299.html. Doesn't cover round tables yet but I'm writing it in 3 parts so will cover later.

Post: #104

Awesome data sheet. I've entered this career path down a completely different route. I noticed that in the UK many people were going down the university route and then spending an additional year to gain a masters degree. Upon achieving a masters degree they had to sit an additional 8 - 12 (degree dependent) or so more exams over a 3 year period to reach a chartered level (UK equiv of CPA I believe). This came in at a total cost of £36,000 in tuition fees and possibly the same again on top for living expenses worth of debt.

There was another option that was by far cheaper and reach the same level of qualifications potentially earlier. A candidate could leave normal school at 16 and within 2 years complete AAT (Associates of Accounting Technicians). This, provided a company employs them for a suitable role, will make them eligible for the professional exams that are required for chartered.

They would have to sit 16 exams however they would gain 3 exemptions therefore sitting 13 more. Whereas the candidate going by the university route would be starting their degree. 13 exams would take 3 years (approx) has it is 2 sittings per year and students typical take 2 exams. So when the university candidate finishes their degree the non-uni candidate would have one exam left to charter. Both would typically be 21 years old and the non-uni guy gets there over 3 years faster without the £72,000 of debt.

I have chosen the non university route and so far my personal cost of tuition has cost me zilch. My employer pays for it. Although I do indirectly pay by taking a reduced salary ($21,000 or so).

Are there other routes of entry in the US too?

Post: #105

@JordanH, what you noted for the UK is very unique as far as getting to a Charter in Accountancy. There is no such "alternate" path in the USA.

Unfortunately, the USA has very rigid rules on completing an Accounting based college curriculum before sitting for the CPA exam. That being said, there are people that have Bachelor's (4 year) degrees in a different profession that go into a 1 - 2 year Master's program that is focused on just Accounting and provides the curriculum required to sit for the CPA exam.

Otherwise, this may be very minor but some states (possibly all) will also provide a license to those providing Accounting services for 15 plus years without a college curriculum that meets the CPA requirements.

Basically, there is no way around a traditional college curriculum in the USA that involve classes as well as exams.

Post: #106

I have internship with Big 4 firm and I just want to add that it's not that hard at all to get in.

I have DUI on record and went to second round office visits with many missing teeth and still got offer.

Cobra, can you say something about the Advisory side in Big 4? They seem to get paid more and I have skills that I can use in Advisory, so would you recommend doing that instead of audit?

Post: #107

Hate to bump an older thread, but I've got another question for a family member.

What part time opportunities would exist in the field? The family member in question would be completing an undergraduate accounting program at a strong regional business school ranked in the top 10(Think Kenan-Flagler/Ross/Kelley) and will most likely top it with an MSA from an evening program in NYC/Chicago and a CPA. For reference I'm going to be recruiting for Investment Banking at the same school.

Would be a good way to both earn some extra income on the side for my wife or even serve as a backup source of income in case I die or become disabled? Do you think it would even be worth it for her to complete her BS in accounting and if so how much debt would be your cutoff?


PS: I have asked elsewhere but I've found that it's good to ask in different sources. You get different information from every perspective.

Post: #108

Also for those of you all asking what else big 4 do:

Some of them also provide management consulting services, and recruit rather heavily at the MBA program I'm entering.

Post: #109

Well since someone asked, sorry for jumping on the boat too. I'm fairly new here and it is my first post so please cut me some slack. I just have a few questions I want to address to you guys and want to see if any fellas could provide me some pointers. Not sure if it has been answered yet since I read the first page of all the posts and jumped till the very last. (You could ignore me if my questions have been answered)
Well I guess this is irrelevant to the post since I'm not going for an accounting role here. But everything else I've read in this post I could relate to since I recently (last year) tried to apply for an internship with EY at NYC.
So I am a management information systems and finance concentration studying at a 4 year university in ny, going to be a senior this coming fall. I've applied to the EY fraud discovery investigation services internship last fall and was lucky to get into second round but boldly got shut down without an offer from them. I was pretty sure I nailed the interview but no idea why I didn't get an offer... So I guess I screwed up. Now I know a few of my friends who are doing accounting got internship offers from EY but mostly probably because it's accounting... are there anyone here who also got other internship positions at any other big 4? Also, any pointers or advice for a fellow non-accounting major person like me to get into big 4?
Thanks for reading, sorry for typos (I know it's very unprofessional of me) but I'm typing on an iPhone. Will fix in the mornings.

Post: #110

Being that I'm a student who has been able to intern with companys since last spring, the advic e I would give is to be as pro active as possible. Fuck that TV show your watching everyday or any other activities that watste your time. Get to improving your GPA, researching local companies, improving your charisma, etc. You are nothing but a asset to these companies so make yourself as valuable as possible. Also, before any interview research the company and casually ramble about their org chart, history, recent events,etc. All these companys have egos just like these bitches and want to feel important. Give them what they want and they more than likely give you what you want. The last thing I want to add is not just stop at CPA. There's is so much certification out their that you can get that will increase your value. There's CAA,CMA,CFM, etc. It cost money to take these tests but if your pro active and network it will pay off. With all these being said accounting is a great field to enter for anyone who wants to bust their ass and make money. You get out of it what you put into it.

Post: #111

Well, I've decided to go and pursue an accouting graduate degree (starting next year). It'll allow me to get the CPA but that's certainly not my end-goal. Right now my plan is to hopefully work for a large firm and get the experience and knowledge I need to reach where I want to be. Is it realistic to move between countries with an auditing role? I already have one foreign language under my belt and should have another by the end of this year

Post: #112

(11-11-2015 04:21 PM)Rang off the Pipe Wrote:  Well, I've decided to go and pursue an accouting graduate degree (starting next year). It'll allow me to get the CPA but that's certainly not my end-goal. Right now my plan is to hopefully work for a large firm and get the experience and knowledge I need to reach where I want to be. Is it realistic to move between countries with an auditing role? I already have one foreign language under my belt and should have another by the end of this year

I really do hate to say it but the short answer is no. Main reason being that big "Public Accounting," especially Big 4 firms generally have offices in each large city; so they don't need you to travel to another country's office unless you go there for an "exchange" type program. Every large firm has one but you have to prove yourself first. Other programs may exist as well but they will be very rare.

Best bet is to learn what you can in a large firm and leave after a few years for a finance role at a multinational company where travel is required. Some of these jobs are 80%+ travel. The caveat is that you may yet have to build your experience in the Corporate Finance world to get into these types of roles. You can even take a non travel job at a multinational company and apply for one internally when it opens up.

When junior people say they travel a lot in a large accounting firm it means they are travelling in the local country. Very rarely is it international until more experience is gained and you have proved yourself.

A's far as developing information and extracting value from it properly, I will provide some tips.

Going back to how important it is to network. Get connected to people at networking events and also Linkedin. You may find middle managers at large companies who would be happy to provide you information if you buy them lunch or even coffee. I do it for a living so I know it works.

Do yourself another favor and while networking don't listen to people with no experience or very little experience. Their views can be very limited. Instead mix it up with middle managers and top level managers too if you can. This way you will figure out who to believe. Connections are very important in this business.

Last thing is, be careful what you read on CPA board's or any one on the Internet that talks about this (except for me and a few others). Most of those boards and sites are full of keyboard jockeys. The successful people are out hustling.

Post: #113

Its pretty hard to get alot of travel working in accounting, unless you are sent to a country to become controller for that region.
in which your pay and benefits will be good. but you would have to like the job and accounting. I know alot of people cant do that.

Big 4 firms are big. and there are some people who go on exchange to countries like Russia, France, etc. But you would have to be quite established and I am not sure what you wanna get out of the big 4, if its just the name then probably you are better going into corporate first.

Post: #114

This thread should be read by every undergraduate in accounting.. Thank you for the insight Cobra. For my first post I at least had to tell you this was a very helpful read.

I'm curious on what you think about entering the Big4 Public accounting game late? When is it to late?

I'm 1.5 years out of a state university, double majored in MGT/ACC, GPA > 3.5, met the 150 hour CPA requirement, Beta Alpha Psi officer, and have worked in finance at a luxury hotel brand since graduating. Most of it has just been bitch work (income audit/accounts receivable), but I did get some decent experience opening up a property. Reason I went this path is because I originally failed to get an offer from any public accounting firms coming out of college. Didn't get any internships early on in college, and no offers my last year from Big4 or mid sized tiers.

I just quit my current job, and I'm about to do a spring travel stint in Europe. When I get back.. it's back to the corporate world.

Will job experience help land an associate level Big4 position? Would you recommend passing portions of the CPA first? At this point, is there an edge I can take or are they looking for more directly out of college?

Post: #115

i work in the digital marketing industry. got a MIS degree and minor in accounting...

think i could switch careers and go into accounting with my degree now? (i honesty don't remember jack shit)

or

should i go get a masters, and try and get enough credits for the CPA and continue to work in my industry to see where things go?

Post: #116

My first job out of college was big4. This thread is spot on.

My office was 2nd only to NYC in terms of hours. It was soul- draining work. 70+ hours per week. No days off. I still remember my first busy season...

I was young and full of excitement for life. I walk into a room to meet the rest of my team and here are these three fat cows sitting there! I remember thinking oh boy this is going to be a long busy season. They sat at their computers auditing away, and always had one hand in a bag of chips. One of the women- my direct supervisor- was mentally unstable. She was always mean for no reason. She had a real personality disorder. She would show you how she wanted something done, and when you followed her instructions, she would bring down the hammer and publicly reprimand you for doing something wrong. She played all the games, and the firm rewarded her. Last I heard she was still there, as a senior manager (one step below partner). I got away from her after that, but the hours still sucked. It does take a heavy toll on your body though. You age 20 years in 2. People with black hair start getting grey hair. You don't sleep and it wrecks your small intestine. Everyone you work with puts on a few pounds.

If you cut your teeth in big4, you can handle anything else that life throws at you. It's the most intense bean counter boot camp you will ever go through. It will open doors and will always set you above someone who doesn't have big4. That being said, the lifestyle sucks and I wouldn't do it if I was older or considering a career change into big4. The older kids (26yr old+) who were new never lasted very long.

When I was at my second gig I realized I didn't like being in accounting at all. The pay was really good, but technical accounting alienates you from reality. My coworkers were all miserable- they provide for their wife and kids, don't really like their job, but keep going day in and day out because they have bills to pay, mortgage, and college tuition coming up around the corner. I'll never forget the look of death in a living man's eyes. It inspired me to seek out something different in life.

Post: #117

(11-26-2015 08:11 PM)Stoolio Wrote:  This thread should be read by every undergraduate in accounting.. Thank you for the insight Cobra. For my first post I at least had to tell you this was a very helpful read.

I'm curious on what you think about entering the Big4 Public accounting game late? When is it to late?

I'm 1.5 years out of a state university, double majored in MGT/ACC, GPA > 3.5, met the 150 hour CPA requirement, Beta Alpha Psi officer, and have worked in finance at a luxury hotel brand since graduating. Most of it has just been bitch work (income audit/accounts receivable), but I did get some decent experience opening up a property. Reason I went this path is because I originally failed to get an offer from any public accounting firms coming out of college. Didn't get any internships early on in college, and no offers my last year from Big4 or mid sized tiers.

I just quit my current job, and I'm about to do a spring travel stint in Europe. When I get back.. it's back to the corporate world.

Will job experience help land an associate level Big4 position? Would you recommend passing portions of the CPA first? At this point, is there an edge I can take or are they looking for more directly out of college?

I would probably say no. Realistically, you should be looking at mid-tier to regional public accounting firms. You can get access to these companies by getting involved in organizations like your state's CPA society. California, for example, has CalCPA. Nobody young is active in these things, I have seen people pick jobs up pretty effortlessly with decent networking skills. Easiest way to transition is do two years and go in as a senior. Not sure what your long term goals are.

You will look better passing parts of the CPA. Pounding pavement without on-campus recruiting is difficult but not impossible. Big 4 will always have an endless stream of talent from the best universities coming in as associates.

(11-27-2015 03:53 AM)trojans10 Wrote:  i work in the digital marketing industry. got a MIS degree and minor in accounting...

think i could switch careers and go into accounting with my degree now? (i honesty don't remember jack shit)

or

should i go get a masters, and try and get enough credits for the CPA and continue to work in my industry to see where things go?

Can you sit for the CPA as of right now? Personally, I'm not a fan of masters level accounting programs ($$$$$$$$), but they have their uses - getting into the local big firm of your choice is pretty easy as long as you go to the right school.

Nothing of what you learn with an accounting degree is really applicable to what you do in public accounting....unless you forget what side a credit goes on.

Post: #118

It's been almost a year since I've been here, figured I would check in. I've followed a partner from one big 4 company to another big 4 company. Not going to lie, the thinkers and organizational skills the new firm possess in my department are pretty dismal. Some projects have been run into the ground and office managing partners are struggling to figure out what's wrong. Despite this, I could possibly be up for manager one year early (4 years instead of 5 due to being an experienced hire.) Trying so hard to not fuck up the politics even though the partner on my side wants to blow everyone up and teach them a lesson.

I'm going to be doing a rotation at our offshore center for 6 weeks, some during busy season - hoping that getting out of the office helps my prospects. Opportunity to travel opens up as you get more experienced.

We're fucked if anyone quits between now and the beginning of season, but I feel this is a normal situation for Big Firms.

I networked into positions on my state CPA society's board of advisors, and won a very prestigious award voted on at the state level. My current plan is to make manager and get the hell out as soon as humanly possible, hopefully to start my own gig or into accounting tax software sales.

Post: #119

Richiavelli knows his shit. I agree with all his points.

Thank you sir for getting in here and fielding questions.

I'll try to add color as well once I get a little more time.

Post: #120

I thought that I would add my 0.02 cents to this thread.

About me ex military and became an accountant as it offers a very diverse range of career options.

My specialisation is in both personal and corporate recovery or reconstruction and I am a manager at a specialist firm.

Insolvency is an interesting field of work as you need to be able to communicate effectively to a range of people from the tradesperson to a Director of the Board. It can also be intensely demanding as I have had to terminate an entire workforce right before Christmas or being appointed by the Bank to turn around a Company within six months before the cash runs out. Some of my more memorable jobs was running a Power Plant, managing a construction company and am currently running a Shopping Centre, so despite its seemingly grim nature working in insolvency can lead to a number of future careers.

Because it is by its nature quite adversarial it tends to be male dominated so roughly 90 %.

Happy to answer questions if anyone is interested.

Post: #121

Any sense in me covering any of this in one of my podcasts gents? Although I doubt h3ltrsk3ltr will want to deal with a bunch of accountants.

It may be easier for me to field some questions that way; especially common ones. I also like the spontaneity aspect of it and possibly getting guest on from here that knows their shit.

Let me know.

Post: #122

(01-10-2016 02:16 AM)Cobra Wrote:  Any sense in me covering any of this in one of my podcasts gents? Although I doubt h3ltrsk3ltr will want to deal with a bunch of accountants.

It may be easier for me to field some questions that way; especially common ones. I also like the spontaneity aspect of it and possibly getting guest on from here that knows their shit.

Let me know.

Happy for you to shoot me a list of questions that I can answer if that works.

Pressed for time as I'm now back from my holidays.

Post: #123

What do people think of Ernst & Young and PriceWaterHouseCoooper's in the UK considering doing away with College degrees and assessing people's raw skills before hiring them?

Personally I'm a fan of it without knowing much more and I hope we bring that to the U.S.

I've met too many a weak college grad with awesome grades when I worked there that were social nutjobs.

Post: #124

(01-24-2016 11:16 AM)Cobra Wrote:  What do people think of Ernst & Young and PriceWaterHouseCoooper's in the UK considering doing away with College degrees and assessing people's raw skills before hiring them?

Personally I'm a fan of it without knowing much more and I hope we bring that to the U.S.

I've met too many a weak college grad with awesome grades when I worked there that were social nutjobs.

I'm happy about it.I have more accounting work experience than the average college student my age, but my gpa has always been somewhat of a weak link (3.1 GPA). I have always strived to work for the big 4, so knowing now they could care less about a degree I believe will only help my chances overall, especially if they bring that to the U.S.

Post: #125

When I used to interview people in the Big 4, the interviews were always behavioral anyways. Sure there was a 3.5 GPA "filter" but I'm pretty sure that no one at the interview roundtables pushed a high GPA person that was devoid of personality or some kind of extra curricular (sports, frat, something else meaningful).

The issue is that there are definitely those with lower GPAs that would do these firms well because of stuff they have done outside of the classroom.