Post: #51

(07-10-2014 05:12 PM)Demenxia Wrote:  My question is what to say a women if she starts to see you as a provider, like telling her problems all the time etc.? How to make yourself "NOT a provider" in her eyes?

Fuck her brains out and blast on her face.

Post: #52

Quote:You're telling me that even after you're in a sexual relationship, you'll lose chicks because you help them with something small? Out of a genuine desire to help and nothing more???

No, I help my fellow MAN out.

I was under the impression this was a thread about breaking up fights between two men.

If its two women having a fight, unless its my mother or wife, I'll go get some popcorn.

Quote: How to make yourself "NOT a provider" in her eyes?

Simple, don't provide.

Post: #53

Rewarding her behavior works much better than expecting her to reward your good behavior.

Post: #54

(07-10-2014 09:44 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

(07-10-2014 07:42 AM)Byron Wrote:  I feel like this cannot be true or there's a major caveat here.

How do men get married? How do men have fiancés? How do men have girlfriends? At some point each of those men must have played Mr. Fixit or posed as an armchair psychologist once or twice.

Or are you suggesting that none of those guys are having sex with their women. I might be incel but I sure as hell know that other dudes, in some cases more "beta" than me, are getting laid. After all, the growth rate isn't negative.

Dr. Love talked about girls that will try to get guys to do chores for them (including armchair therapy) before a sexual relationship. That was a no-no in his eyes; after she proved to be a worthy mate he said you could soften up after.

Have none of you ever helped a casual dating partner/long term partner and seen her interest in you RISE or at least remain the same?

Byron,

This is not as black and white as you are making it seem, but we are talking about the averages here - majority rule. Of course, if you are in a long-term relationship with a woman then it goes without saying you are going to be helping her out here and there with something, but it's the frequency, degree, and behavior surrounding these deeds that determines a woman's interpretation of you.

The West is not what it was 60 years ago. Women are not dependent on men. They are not taught to find a good man, start a family, and settle down as soon as you become an adult. They are taught to be independent, wealthy, well-educated, strong, etc.

This is social conditioning. Female youth in our culture have been indoctrinated into a world view where men-as-providers are not desirable as women are expected to provide for themselves. Our historical role as providers has changed in Western civilization.

Women in our culture today do not appreciate being provided or as they once did. This doesn't mean they don't like being taken care of, but it means that the way they interpret it is different. Men who do things for them are convenient, but unnecessary. Convenient = low effort to get desired results. If getting a man to do what you want requires little effort then there is no incentive for you go out of your way to please him or chase him.

Relationship are all about keeping a certain level of balance. As men, we need to be on the uphill looking down in order for the relationship to work properly. Don't get my words twisted - this does not mean women are to be seen as lesser than men. What it means is that we are naturally expected to be strong and independent. Show me a relationship where the woman needs to "chase" the man and work to keep him around and keep him happy and I will show you a relationship that is working and both parties are happy. Show me a relationship where a man chases the girl and put in more effort than she does and I will show you a relationship where the woman is becoming more and more entitled and losing interest, and the man is not a leader and co-dependent.

This is America anno 2014. Women can get their own oil changed.

Thank you for that answer, General...makes sense. I can see your point about black and white thinking.



It felt like we were getting a little extreme here (in my eyes) so I had to question that

Post: #55

In psychology we call this the "savior complex". Below is a text book break down:

It's a classic tale...

There once was a woman who had had a tough childhood. Her father
was emotionally abusive and left at an early age. Her mother took
to drinking a little too much, and didn't offer her the type of
motherly support or guidance a young woman needs. She was in an
abusive relationship in her early 20's. Her career had never gotten
off of the ground.

But she could still smile a sweet smile. She loved to laugh and
have a good time.

A man came along who recognized her "good points" and fell in love
with her. Well, for the cats in this forum, not fal in love, but you guys
wanna "invest" in her. Then before long you realize you've put in too much
work so you better go all in.
He helped her move into a much nicer apartment, in a
safer part of town. He bought her new clothes. He bought her new
furniture. Being an upper level manager and knowing what employers
look for, he took it upon himself to improve her resume and found
her a better paying job through his contacts. Tired of seeing her
brake down on the side of the road and always stressed about her
car, he co-signed so she could get a new car.

Before long life had changed for her. She looked better and dressed
in nicer, sexier clothing. She enjoyed her job. She met new friends
and contacts through her work. She drove a nicer, new car in her
favorite color. She lived in a much better apartment in a beautiful
part of town.

The man felt wonderfully secure about himself and their
relationship, and the things he was able to improve for her. She
cherished him for seeing through her hard life and recognizing her
positives. She owed him faithfulness since he co-signed on her car.
She was dedicated & devoted to him...........

Right???...........

Wrong.

Instead she began to feel guilt, and therefore embarrassment. He
knew too much about her. She could never repay him. She grew to
have resentment for him always wanting to "save her" and treating
her like a helpless child. Meanwhile, she felt better about herself
and could present herself better. She could entertain at her nice
apartment. She met new, better friends and high caliber men.

To men on the outside, she was a radiant, intelligent, strong,
independent, and stable woman.

To the man she was dating, who saved this wounded bird, she was
rescued, weak, dependent, unstable and needy.

He loved that fact......... she didn't.

It made him feel powerful, protected, and that she would be devoted
to him long term.

Wrong.

Each time they were together it reminded her of her weak state. He
would remind her of the things he had done for her. He felt he
could, and should, control her decisions, whereabouts, choices, and
overall life.

She became miserable in the relationship.

Soon she met a young man who viewed her as beautiful and strong-
just what she desired. He spoke up to her, and not down at her. He
listened to her opinions. He understood when she needed to work
late or wanted to go to happy hour with a female friend. He allowed
her time to shop and do things for herself on the weekends. He
wasn't clingy. He didn't feel that she owned him.

The man who saved this "wounded bird" felt jilted. She had
completely "used him". She suddenly wanted nothing to do with him.

This is the problem with saving the "wounded bird".


Even if you did manage to be her savior, her alpha savior, in the long run she will end up resenting you. For others she is the princess, the 9. For you she is just a fucked up girl you once "rescued". Her hamster will go on overdrive and throw away all notion of gratitude and spit out shit like " you never love me, you used and abused me" and other crap.

Warning for those among you players who find a damaged girl and invest in her, thinking she will give you good returns. Especially foreign girls. Just be careful. Raise a dog and it will guard your grave until it dies (google that shit, its true) Try to raise a woman and she will leave you without your kitchen sink.

This is also why white knights will always get used and abused by women he actually did saved. You want chivalry? The knights of old had fucking options and could fuck any pretty handmaidens he wanted while he went chasing after that lady. Be that knight.

Post: #56

(07-11-2014 03:28 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  In psychology we call this the "savior complex". Below is a text book break down:

It's a classic tale...



Even if you did manage to be her savior, her alpha savior, in the long run she will end up resenting you. For others she is the princess, the 9. For you she is just a fucked up girl you once "rescued". Her hamster will go on overdrive and throw away all notion of gratitude and spit out shit like " you never love me, you used and abused me" and other crap.

Warning for those among you players who find a damaged girl and invest in her, thinking she will give you good returns. Especially foreign girls. Just be careful. Raise a dog and it will guard your grave until it dies (google that shit, its true) Try to raise a woman and she will leave you without your kitchen sink.

This is also why white knights will always get used and abused by women he actually did saved. You want chivalry? The knights of old had fucking options and could fuck any pretty handmaidens he wanted while he went chasing after that lady. Be that knight.

That story is too Blue Pill. Women don't experience that weakness-aspect. Besides - that kind of all-encompassing help is just extremely rare and the psychological issues are not even close to the reality as described in the story.

The truth of the matter is that female romantic love and attraction is not
created by good deeds you do for her. A friend you have will cherish it and appreciate you for it, but a woman you are interested in will not get 'gina tingles because of it.
Otherwise Beta Orbiters who do homework for girls would be drowning in pussy.

In some cases it can even change the mental dynamic of the girl - you were her lover boy, after some good deed she sees you more as the provider. If you do not wish to wive her up or have a LTR with her, then there is no reason to change that dynamic. Most attractive women have plenty of shoulders to cry on - best she cries about your "douchy" behavior and your inability to commit and still comes back to fuck you.

Post: #57

Women are more likely to forgive douchey behavior if you have the looks, game, and personality to back it up.

Betas like to orbit and drop money because they don't have anything else to attract girls.

Post: #58

(07-09-2014 10:26 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  Here is something I still do that screws me over every single time. There are two basic paradigms through which a women view men: The Lover and The Provider. The lover is the guy she goes to for sex and fun, the provider is the guy she goes to for everything else including fixing her problems. I always start out as The Lover because that's my MO (Method of Operation). But then the girl will start telling me about her problems which in some cases I could easily fix and then I will try to be a "hero" and fix her problems. Well, guess what happens then? The moment I start down that road, I am no longer a lover and start to become a provider! And her view and treatment of me changes.

Don't make the mistake of trying to be a hero. Don't buy into the crap you see on TV. Leave the hero stuff to the providers. A girl doesn't like mixing her men, it confuses her. Do you like to see your sex kitten washing dishes? No, you want to be able to maintain that fun, sexy image of her and with women it's the same. They want to maintain a certain image of their lover and that image is a sexual and fun guy. If you start discussing her problems with her guess what? Her problems are not fun! You are only going to break her mood and her image of you. Just let her talk about whatever however much she wants and leave it at that. Don't get into any details.

She is coming to you to get away from her problems not for you to fix them.

The moment you start trying to fix a girl's problems, any problem, you will cross the line from Lover to Provider. Now, I am not saying never help her but make her ask you for help and she is only going to do it as a last resort. Her car breaks down. She is going to call her boyfriend first and if he's not around then she may call you.

I cannot tell you how many times I have fucked up a good thing by trying to be fucking hero. You have to decided what role you are going to play in a woman's life and stick to your fucking role so you don't confuse her. If you are going to be a lover then be a lover and be a lover 100% of the time. And a Lover is not the hero, the Provider is!

This is universally useful in many aspects of male/female social dynamics.


It is essentially the human application of r/k selection theory(laidnyc).


Krauser takes the theory further by combining aspects of both frames(lover/provider). Here and here.

David Deida also places a lot of emphasis on maintaining attraction and desire within a relationship through careful balance of these factors. He doesn't mention the theory directly, but it is clear that he understands the dualistic sexual strategy of females. See the rationalmale.com piece for a really detailed look at how that works. Krauser also links to it in his article.

Although Krauser is highlighting the importance of these factors in daygame for players, it is also a highly useful area of LTR game. Both poly and mono, although I have no personal experience of any type of poly relationship, I'm sure the social-sexual dynamics will operate in roughly similar ways.

David Deida's ways of presenting a modus operandi in this area are quite long-winded, and slightly too esoteric for manosphere/red pill(or whatever you want to call them/us) guys. PUA is a redundant term now. Many guys don't have the confidence to run a harem or be in non-exclusive relationships, and therefore struggle with the mentality required, and seek(settle for?) a monogamous relationship, and making the mistake of thinking the challenge of self-improvement and Game are no longer required.

As you aptly describe, players and relationship guys can maximise their outcome through applying an understanding of this concept.

Post: #59

If women want to be strong, independent individuals, let them. I got fucked straight up the ass by my ex-wife because I played the hero. I paid for the schooling she ended up quitting, supported her interests and was the good husband up until I was no longer on her fuck list and got left with more debt that the US government.

If she isn't doting on you, do fuck all for her. You don't invest in a company without there being a return.

Post: #60

(07-14-2014 11:46 AM)SFTD Wrote:  If women want to be strong, independent individuals, let them. I got fucked straight up the ass by my ex-wife because I played the hero. I paid for the schooling she ended up quitting, supported her interests and was the good husband up until I was no longer on her fuck list and got left with more debt that the US government.

If she isn't doting on you, do fuck all for her. You don't invest in a company without there being a return.

Took a look at your blog. Nice use of the word cunt, over and over again

Post: #61

Classic Savior Schema:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/26/th...or-schema/

Post: #62

(07-14-2014 06:13 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(07-14-2014 11:46 AM)SFTD Wrote:  If women want to be strong, independent individuals, let them. I got fucked straight up the ass by my ex-wife because I played the hero. I paid for the schooling she ended up quitting, supported her interests and was the good husband up until I was no longer on her fuck list and got left with more debt that the US government.

If she isn't doting on you, do fuck all for her. You don't invest in a company without there being a return.

Took a look at your blog. Nice use of the word cunt, over and over again

Its an underused word.

Post: #63

Here is an interesting example of this. My niece in a bout of anger yesterday told me that she hated having to ask me for help. Instead of feeling a sense of gratitude for being helped, at her request, she actually resented me for helping her or having to ask for help which is all the same in her mind.

Post: #64

Good point Nomad. Girls absolutely hate having to ask for help. Sisters, nieces, girlfriends, exs [haha], mothers, lawyers, doctors, waitresses.