Post: #1

I used to think that maintaining a strong frame with girls and not taking shit from them would never have you getting laid less - that there was no downside to conducting yourself with dignity. That you'd filter out the disrespectful chicks quickly, at no cost to your overall sex life.

I was wrong. Increasingly, my 'inability' to accept disrespect from women is leading to fewer bangs. And I don't think my tolerance has changed really, so much as shitty behavior has gotten more prevalent. I've talked to a couple guys I respect, and they've encountered something similar. Without this turning into another "American women suck" thread, I'm wondering - have *you* encountered this? How have you dealt with it?

Me, I'm not going to take any more shit from girls than I do now. I'm just wondering how other men in my situation have responded, and what I can do to alleviate the situation, or just come to terms with it. It's good to get some perspective on things. Also, I think 'warm approaching' girls through social scenes and such can allay this somewhat, but I rarely meet girls that way.

A couple common examples:

• 1. Flaking: A girl flakes on you but still is interested in meeting up. I'll typically demand some sort of concession for this, eg her taking me out somewhere, treating me to something, etc.
  
  2. Crude yet oversensitive: A girl gets mad at you for something you said, when she has said or done far worse to you. Especially common over text.

What are the causes? Here are my suspicions:

• 1. Solipsism - Girls are so absorbed with themselves they don't really conceive of how doing what they want may constitute disrespect towards others.
  2. The Need To Emasculate Men - If you flatly mention that she was disrespectful, she will translate this into chick-speak of "you hurt my feelings" and thus now you are a little bitch worthy of her derision.
  3. She is royalty: She's used to treating men like this without issue, but she isn't used to getting a taste of her own medicine. When you call her out, it may be the first and last time in her life that she gets raked over the coals. And you are definitely an asshole because you called her out and no one else has.
  

Also, I'm talking about new girls. I've had few issues of disrespect with girls I'd see regularly - if they were disrespectful to begin with, they'd never become a regular, and my frame is fine so they wouldn't start acting up later either.

Post: #2

(06-15-2014 11:35 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  I used to think that maintaining a strong frame with girls and not taking shit from them would never have you getting laid less - that there was no downside to conducting yourself with dignity. That you'd filter out the disrespectful chicks quickly, at no cost to your overall sex life.

I was wrong

I have written a post like this before.
You mentioned this happens with new girls, its not that theyre not used to getting called out on their behaviour, its just that if youre a stranger cold aproaching from out of nowhere the large majority of girls nowadays just assume you are below them until proven otherwise, so they think who does this guy think he is to talk TO ME like that!
Ive heard that exact phrase before... who do you think you are!

(06-15-2014 11:35 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  I've had few issues of disrespect with girls I'd see regularly

Then you must have heard before you know i used to think you were X and you turned out to be Y. What i see most guys do is just ignore, pretend nothing happened, eventually when girls get to know you more they will act differently, i dont do that i do the same as you and get the same results.

Post: #3

I function pretty much the same as you - silently "nexting" upon encountering bad behaviour, and it's definitely costing me bangs. Calling out girls on bad behaviour is just pointless, as it both won't cause them to open their legs and can never make a dent in their tremendous rationalization hamsters.

I often think that I would be more successful if I sacrificed some of my sanity and pursued girls no matter the shit they pull. Gio seems to have an approach like that, which is quite admirable.

Post: #4

(06-15-2014 12:35 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 11:35 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  I used to think that maintaining a strong frame with girls and not taking shit from them would never have you getting laid less - that there was no downside to conducting yourself with dignity. That you'd filter out the disrespectful chicks quickly, at no cost to your overall sex life.

I was wrong

I have written a post like this before.
You mentioned this happens with new girls, its not that theyre not used to getting called out on their behaviour, its just that if youre a stranger cold aproaching from out of nowhere the large majority of girls nowadays just assume you are below them until proven otherwise

Yes, I was saying exactly this last night to a wing, and have believed it for a while now - in a scene where you're already pre-approved and socially vetted, eg at an intimate house party, girls will assume you are roughly their social equal. But when you're approaching as a stranger at a bar, they're on the mountain peak, and you're at the bottom, and half the game is convincing them that you ARE in fact on their level.

(06-15-2014 12:37 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  I function pretty much the same as you - silently "nexting" upon encountering bad behaviour, and it's definitely costing me bangs. Calling out girls on bad behaviour is just pointless, as it both won't cause them to open their legs and can never make a dent in their tremendous rationalization hamsters.

I'm going the Gandhi route - "be the change you want to see in the world." If more guys called them out, they might stop to question themselves - plus it gives me a sense of satisfaction to cause them a little anguish. Some might call that petty, but I'm inclined to believe that our God-given taste for revenge and moral retribution serves a productive purpose, and I shan't hesitate to exercise it within the confines of the law.

Post: #5

Yeah, I have to admit I've been doing this too. For better or worse, this board and the manosphere in general have changed my perception of women.

There are things women do or say I used to find tolerable or amusing that I no longer have patience for.

But I don't call women out on this stuff. There is a Roissy maxim that says calling a woman out on lies accomplishes nothing and I think that goes for women's behavior too, unless you're deeply invested. What I do is simply "next" these women mentally and move on.

Also, if you're developing this quality, I would suggest not friending women you meet on Facebook, because I've found that after a few of their posts, I have no desire to ever see most of them again.

Post: #6

There is a way to keep banging huge quantity of girls without sacrificing your manhood. Just perfect your jabs with humor. Always criticize in a playful way, if you must.

Most of the time, I just keep my mouth shut till I get the bang and then decide if I want to keep her. Also, you should be able to cycle through so many women losing a bitch here and there will not impact your sex rate.

I guess I'd have to observe your game to know for sure if you're being too "unfun" to cost you any bangs.

Post: #7

Basil, you need to get the hell out of LA my friend.

You can have everything going for you there, do everything right, and get laid less because if it.

Come see what an "average" guy pulls over here in EE. Or better yet, Moscow.

Getting out was one of the best decisions I ever made. Yeah I miss the weather, but the sexual marketplace there is seriously fucked up. The US in general is a womans market. LA even more so. Fuck that noise.

You want to be treated with respect? Come to a place where women actually value men and masculinity. Sure, you still get the odd flakes, shit tests, but it's not the same. It's a night & day difference. For the better.

Post: #8

My self-respect is worth more to me than pussy even.

Post: #9

I would not say that I am getting laid less, but I am not having sex with as many new girls as before. I understand this is often peak and trough theory but what you are getting at is observable in my life as well.

I tend to treat women like my bratty little sister, but even she will have the self awareness to know when to stop, show affection, ask for help, etc. Many women I want to have sex with are barely tolerable beyond a few dates and I can only put up with so much self absorption before bailing.

I find that I get surprised by women more when they actually act put together and have shit under control. That gets an eyebrow raise out of me now. Like when she goes fishing with her dad and brother and posts nothing on instagram. Or takes her mom out for Mothers Day and does not blow up facebook. Any drama that goes on between her and her friends is dealt with by a bottle of wine or a bike ride.

Basically when a girl is not a walking, talking disaster (and proud of it) I will be more likely to stick around and introduce her to my life. But its a terrible irony that as my life becomes much richer, the women have all become less substantial and less worthy of my time and resources.

Put it this way, the most put together woman I have met recently sells her body for (good) money.

Post: #10

I get the feeling you're over-gaming.

One thing is self-respect—that's a turn-on. But another thing is arrogance—or hyper-touchiness. Both of which borders on—and are possibly signs of—weakness.

If a girl says something stupid, or shit-tests you, there's no need to react every time. Lots of times, just ignore a shit-test. Much better than rising to the bait every time.

OneIdea

Post: #11

It's possible to have self respect without taking yourself too seriously.

Flaking? Yeah, girls flake. You're nobody to her yet. You are unproven. Flaking is to be expected.

Crude texts? Let's see some examples. I bet you're doing something wrong. I've texted (and posted screen caps on Twitter) shit that guys wouldn't believe.

Clint https://twitter.com/hdlie (not sure if he posts here) has seen my text game up close and personal and even has been experimenting with it.

I've met you and you're a good looking kid with a decent physique. You shouldn't be having problems with flaking and girls not liking crude behavior.

I bet it's something you are doing wrong and that I could fix easily.

My first advice would be to remember that self-respect doesn't mean self-important. Many men (especially younger men) conflate the two concepts.

Post: #12

I've noticed this too. Up to a point, refusing to take shit from girls is helpful because they respect you for showing that they can't walk all over you, but there's definitely a point of diminishing returns. After a certain point, girls will just write you off as an asshole if you directly call them out for bad behavior. You can be a little more gentle with your criticism by doing it playfully or by ignoring her and withdrawing attention, but you will still hit the point where calling a girl out doesn't make sex more likely.

I personally tend to fall in the "whatever works" camp. Maybe this is just a rationalization, but I don't really see a problem with momentarily letting a girl get away with a certain amount of petty shit if the result is that I get laid. If you find a girl's personality unpleasant, then bang her and tell her the reason why you never called her again is because she's disrespectful and not worthy of more than a pump and dump.

Post: #13

I tend to walk if girls engage in bad behavior. The problem is that as the years pass, even though I improve as a man, the quality of Western women continues its descent into the abyss.

The litmus test: if I put up with this bad behavior from her, is she likelier to repeat it down the road with a different man?

Or, if I call this bitch out for her bad behavior, even if it costs me the bang, will some other brother probably not have to put up with it?

If I calculate that there is a way to teach her that her bad behavior has consequences, without taking things personally, then I'd say that generally I will do it. I always assumed that other men would do the same, but I was wrong.

It's the prisoner's dilemma: if I act selfishly, I attain glory but some other man will suffer down the road. If we all act selfishly, we all suffer. If we all act selflessly, in the long run we're all better off.

Game in the West is one big prisoner's dilemma. By pandering to the destructive desires of solipsistic, increasingly low-quality women, we all suffer.

Post: #14

I completely understand you.


Guys that take more bullshit from girls usually can get laid more. I have a friend that takes anything from girls. A girl would flake on him when they are about to meet and he would still call her, a girl hangs up the phone on him and he would still call her, basically he doesn't give up till he gets the bang. And he gets laid like crazy.

When I started adopting his attitude (this was years ago), I started getting laid more. Basically his philosophy is that you shouldn't get emotional about things that women say, totally ignore them because they are not rational beings to begin with, think of the end goal and be done with them soon as you fuck them.

However I am in a point where if a girl violates, I would just kick her out of my life. I just don't have the patience to be pushing through to win a bang, specially when I always have a girl on the side that I can call to bang.

Recently, I met this girl who was really hot, a 9 by forum standards (not my 9), we were texting back and fourth and I was trying to meet up with her. Next minute, her best friend started texting me and asking to meet up with me, I felt like her friend liked me more than she did and decided to steal my number from her and try to meet up with me. However I wanted to meet the first girl but first girl was being very childish, even though she seems half interested. I was like ''how old are you again''..she was Like ''19'', Me: oh yeah I could tell, I am out.

I don't take bullshit to ''win'' pussy as a prize. Don't listen to these guys telling you that there is something wrong with you, you just value yourself more than you value these girls.

Post: #15

(06-15-2014 02:07 PM)OneIdea Wrote:  I get the feeling you're over-gaming.

One thing is self-respect—that's a turn-on. But another thing is arrogance—or hyper-touchiness. Both of which borders on—and are possibly signs of—weakness.

If a girl says something stupid, or shit-tests you, there's no need to react every time. Lots of times, just ignore a shit-test. Much better than rising to the bait every time.

OneIdea

You feel it most when you experience something better, and then go back to what you had before. I was seeing a girl who was always cheerful, always DTF, always affectionate, always reaching out to me, now I'm not. Most girls I'm meeting have few or none of these qualities, and I can't be bothered to 'keep plowing' forward and keep investing energy when I see them put in little to none.

For instance, the other night I was at an event, and talked to a few girls there. Could I have gotten their numbers? Probably. Could I have gotten them on a date? Possibly. Even if I had done all that, I had to ask myself, would these girls care if I did none of those things? Hell no. That's not them outright disrespecting me, but I feel I'm disrespecting myself by associating with people who are indifferent to seeing me, even if they would let me fuck them. How many dates and fucks until these girls would say something as simple as "I miss you" or "I wish you were here."

I never have this feeling with my male friends - among my male friends, if a guy exhibited behavior like that it would be weird, and I'd soon stop associating with them. But many girls are used to being appreciated, and not doing the appreciating, and that quickly tires me out.

I made some benign comment to a foreign (maybe Spanish) girl based on a piece of clothing we were both wearing - she gets dismissive and cunty and has the temerity to ask me to take her photo moments later, and I just blankly stare at her until she slinks off. Same night, a lesbian beckons me over to talk to her single friends, and her single friends immediately sound the 'awkward' alarm and I straighten them out - "I feel fine, it's you who's projecting your awkwardness onto everyone else." I have these sorts of encounters nonstop. The week before, I nearly got into a fight with some cunty Jewess. These are still the minority, but each time shit goes down, my tolerance for taking shit from other girls decreases.

On one hand, I'm not even sure I can blame these girls - that's just the status quo of dating in Los Angeles or the USA. You talk to a girl, you have a good conversation, you make her wet, but at the end of the day she'll quickly forget you, and will balk at making you, a perfect stranger, a priority.

(06-15-2014 02:18 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  It's possible to have self respect without taking yourself too seriously.

Flaking? Yeah, girls flake. You're nobody to her yet. You are unproven. Flaking is to be expected.

Crude texts? Let's see some examples. I bet you're doing something wrong. I've texted (and posted screen caps on Twitter) shit that guys wouldn't believe.

Clint https://twitter.com/hdlie (not sure if he posts here) has seen my text game up close and personal and even has been experimenting with it.

I've met you and you're a good looking kid with a decent physique. You shouldn't be having problems with flaking and girls not liking crude behavior.

I bet it's something you are doing wrong and that I could fix easily.

My first advice would be to remember that self-respect doesn't mean self-important. Many men (especially younger men) conflate the two concepts.

I don't think it's a matter of looks - I wing with a guy who's better looking than me, and he has the same issues.

The solutions I see:

1. Close less, focus on girls who are excited to be with you, and ditch the rest. If a girl makes things difficult, puts out little effort, tell her and she can put up or walk.
2. Look for niches where you are less apt to be treated like a disposable good. Social circle, or somewhere where you have status, reputation, etc.

Yeti, in my experience it's not quite a prisoner's dilemma - I say my piece, and she can either choose to accept what I say and make good, or tell me to fuck off. If I didn't say anything, I still wouldn't end up banging her.

Post: #16

I've noticed that game is mostly about being an actor for me and playing a role of some sort.

When I've learned to recognize a girl who is looking for a more submissive "yes man" than an alpha leading man, than it does not bother me at all to play that role. It did originally & I would think to myself I'm lowering my standards and hurting my pride, but then I saw how everything is a game and you're ultimately getting what you want.

Just because you're acting beta doesn't mean you are. It just means you're acting to get what you want.

Plus, sometimes its fun to play that role, and you really see how the world is just a big game with everyone acting different parts.

Post: #17

Nah.

There's a big difference between petty shit tests which can be handled with charming/cocky/sarcastic responses and outright disrespect.

I have zero tolerance for it and still get laid plenty.

My self comes first.

Lastly, I would chalk much of what you're experiencing on LA.

We're in the jungle brother, which is great for turning guys into super players, but it's not a secret that LA is terrible for dating due to the extreme narcissism. Shit, there's even been movies made about it.

Post: #18

I look at it like this..

Once you're past the part of exchanging Info and all that most the works been done so it's time to get paid or start from scratch with another one that will probably be the same.

How do you keep cool? Just know that you'll be teaching her a lesson later. In my case a serious lesson more than likely if I'm at the wtf point dealing with her.

Finish the job.

Post: #19

(06-15-2014 02:18 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  My first advice would be to remember that self-respect doesn't mean self-important. Many men (especially younger men) conflate the two concepts.

Mike, could you expand on this?

Post: #20

(06-15-2014 04:28 PM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  You feel it most when you experience something better, and then go back to what you had before. I was seeing a girl who was always cheerful, always DTF, always affectionate, always reaching out to me, now I'm not. Most girls I'm meeting have few or none of these qualities, and I can't be bothered to 'keep plowing' forward and keep investing energy when I see them put in little to none.

This it....

Get the hell out of LA.

I've never dated an American girl. Why?

Foreign girls have ruined me for them. I expect better than what the average American girl can give me. Hell, my ex German girlfriend treats me better than most American girls treat their boyfriends. Pussy is fungible. Being treated right, is not.

You've answered your own question - now it's up to you to do the next step.

Good luck, brother.

Wald

Post: #21

I think part of it may be due to your location. When I left CA and came to TX I couldn't believe the girls I met. They were feminine, knew how to cook, and cleaned my place without prompting. Women will always be women, but location plays a part.

Post: #22

You have to define to us what you mean by "self respect".

Post: #23

I say only call a girl out on her behavior if you do it in a way that's going to get you laid. Otherwise you are letting the girl frame the situation.

I think the trick us to make yourself into a guy that those girls wouldn't dare act like that around.. If fact they'd do the opposite and try to please you.

Post: #24

(06-16-2014 01:52 AM)soup Wrote:  I say only call a girl out on her behavior if you do it in a way that's going to get you laid. Otherwise you are letting the girl frame the situation.

I think the trick us to make yourself into a guy that those girls wouldn't dare act like that around.. If fact they'd do the opposite and try to please you.

Sage advice. A friend once described me as having a "very low tolerance for poor behaviour." I can be quite impatient and don't like fucking around. I'm nowhere near as successful as some of the other posters here and this is something I need to work on.

Post: #25

Basil Ransom Wrote:You feel it most when you experience something better, and then go back to what you had before. I was seeing a girl who was always cheerful, always DTF, always affectionate, always reaching out to me, now I'm not. Most girls I'm meeting have few or none of these qualities, and I can't be bothered to 'keep plowing' forward and keep investing energy when I see them put in little to none.

Yeah I know how that feels.

After dating some foreign girls recently, esp my French ex, I find it very hard to muster the energy to game the typical Aussie girls I see around me.

I think it comes down to how much you enjoy the non-sexytime spent around those girls (I'd say on avg we prob spend 90% of our time with a girl as non-sexytime). I love the company of the foreign girls I dated. Seeing them after a hard day's work is joy, regardless of whether sexytime was on the card that night or not, as I can't get enough of their feminine energy which complements my own masculine one. OTOH, I feel like it's a waste of time being around the local Aussie girls unless we're having sex and they're not running their mouths on some stupid feminist / gossip BS. Hell it feels like a waste of time just to set up the meetup with them, with the high flake rate and other BS.

For me, the issue of self-respect here is that I respect and value my own time way more than I used to, and I do not want to spend any of it with women I cannot stand.

In the past, when I didn't have enough bangs, I would put up with way more just to secure the bangs, and also the girls back then weren't so terrible, this is before social media and smart phones. Now I'm no longer that thirsty.

I'm putting my time & energy into becoming location independent so I get to meet more foreign girls. If it costs me bangs with the local chicks, so be it.

DOBA Wrote:Also, if you're developing this quality, I would suggest not friending women you meet on Facebook, because I've found that after a few of their posts, I have no desire to ever see most of them again.

In a moment of weakness, I broke that rule and accepted a friend request from this chick I was just on a (quite pleasant) date with. I read a few of her posts that week on abortion, and despite me being neutral towards the pro-life / pro-choice argument, I was so disgusted by her attitude that I de-friended her straight away and never called her again. She's still complaining to mutual acquaintances about it lol. She's a pretty hot little blonde and probably has never had a guy drop her for seemingly no reason before.