Post: #26

(05-19-2014 05:23 PM)Mormon Nailer Wrote:  Government work is mostly a scam to provide employment for the most useless groups in society. Women, of course, being one of them.

if you haven't lived outside of the first world, you have no idea what a blessing honest cops are

Post: #27

(05-19-2014 05:18 PM)monster Wrote:  The incompetents have officially taken over.

This is why I feel no loyalty to my government or my country any longer.

please keep the hate goin'--it's how I know I'm getting SOMETHING right.

Post: #28

(05-19-2014 02:17 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  Being a conservation officer during hunting season is dangerous but its balanced out by boating around on the water during summer and checking boats for booze and zebra mussels. I know these guys and they check every boat with a girl in a bikini on it.

You guys can't drink on a motorboat? Round the UK coast there's no law against that, the only guy who stays sort of sober when we go out is the one driving the truck towing the boat home.

Post: #29

(05-20-2014 03:40 AM)roberto Wrote:  

(05-19-2014 02:17 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  Being a conservation officer during hunting season is dangerous but its balanced out by boating around on the water during summer and checking boats for booze and zebra mussels. I know these guys and they check every boat with a girl in a bikini on it.

You guys can't drink on a motorboat? Round the UK coast there's no law against that, the only guy who stays sort of sober when we go out is the one driving the truck towing the boat home.

Same thing in the US states I've lived in. They will ask who is driving, check for people being of age to drink etc.

Post: #30

(05-19-2014 05:57 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Either way, I don't see the point of this thread. It's just hatin' going on.

There are tradeoffs between private and public sector, choose one.

I remember when people were losing their jobs and giving teachers the shit because they have health insurance and stable job security. Someone call the wambulance.

The point is that the larger the govt. grows, and the more resources they suck up, the less opportunity there are for the middle and lower class. And this goes 10 fold for men.

If we do not fix this economic disaster headed our way, we will all suffer, and that goes just as much for the govt. workers as well.

Post: #31

http://www.pensiontsunami.com/

This is unsustainable. EX: Lifeguards retiring at 50 with 6 figures a year til they die meanwhile the municipality is bankrupt. Taxpayers will only take so much abuse before they fight back at these public benefits. The major roadblock to changing this is politicians who can change the laws would be killing their own financial golden goose if they ever wanted to change this.

Post: #32

(05-20-2014 06:50 AM)bacon Wrote:  http://www.pensiontsunami.com/

This is unsustainable. EX: Lifeguards retiring at 50 with 6 figures a year til they die meanwhile the municipality is bankrupt. Taxpayers will only take so much abuse before they fight back at these public benefits. The major roadblock to changing this is politicians who can change the laws would be killing their own financial golden goose if they ever wanted to change this.

Eventually either the tax payers will fight back, or the will be cut off and forced to terminate these pension plans.

The amount of debt the USA has to float just to keep the govt. operating is not sustainable. Eventually we will have austerity in the USA, like they have had in Europe, and these govt. employees will find out the hard way what their real world value is.

Post: #33

(05-20-2014 02:49 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(05-19-2014 05:23 PM)Mormon Nailer Wrote:  Government work is mostly a scam to provide employment for the most useless groups in society. Women, of course, being one of them.

if you haven't lived outside of the first world, you have no idea what a blessing honest cops are

I should have clarified. I'm not talking about cops. Hence why I wrote "MOST government jobs. My apologies if I insulted anyone here. They're mostly a huge boon, true. Even the government jobs that are needed, like teachers etc. can all be done on the free market, for much higher quality and for much cheaper per student. We spend the most $ per student in the world and we're like 30th in secondary education.

Post: #34

Again, this is misdirection. The retirement plans aren't going to go bankrupt because of workers. They'll go bankrupt because of the much more highly paid administrators and elected officials taking a much bigger slice of the same plans.

California's current governor already makes over 400k+ a year from his combined pensions from different offices he's held over the years. He ran on, and passed, some major benefit and pension reductions for state government employees.

Biggest change is no more "spiking" by management. People would work lower level admin jobs for 40 years, be chief for a day, then try to retire at a chief's salary. No more of that.

The auto industry bankruptcies resulted in retirement benefits being substatially cut by the bankruptcy courts. There was a movement for cities across the US to follow this model and declare bankruptcy so they could immediately cut retirement benefits... but when you go into bankruptcy court all the payola and corruption gets exposed first, like in the case of the city of Bell, California. So now elected officials look at the convictions still going on with even more investigations of Bell's books reaching further and further back into the past and are no longer talking about the bankruptcy option with the same enthusiasm.

And worse, what looked like a perfect way to cut only worker's benefits while leaving administrators and elected benefits untouched instead turns out to cut all ways.

Oakland's public schools have been under bankruptcy court administration for 12+ years and still can't weed out the corruption. Whole lot of Principals for a day, district administrators for a day, years and years of bad administration that took everything they could while leaving nothing for the actual teachers doing the work.

Meanwhile the university of California system is a series of do nothing administrative offices used by the Democrat party to park officials at absurdly high salaries between elections --which is why Janet Napolitano is suddenly chancelor at 400k+ annual salary with no qualifications for the job whatsoever. Paid for by ever higher student tuition.

Post: #35

(05-20-2014 09:12 AM)Blackhawk Wrote:  Again, this is misdirection. The retirement plans aren't going to go bankrupt because of workers. They'll go bankrupt because of the much more highly paid administrators and elected officials taking a much bigger slice of the same plans.

California's current governor already makes over 400k+ a year from his combined pensions from different offices he's held over the years. He ran on, and passed, some major benefit and pension reductions for state government employees.

Biggest change is no more "spiking" by management. People would work lower level admin jobs for 40 years, be chief for a day, then try to retire at a chief's salary. No more of that.

The auto industry bankruptcies resulted in retirement benefits being substatially cut by the bankruptcy courts. There was a movement for cities across the US to follow this model and declare bankruptcy so they could immediately cut retirement benefits... but when you go into bankruptcy court all the payola and corruption gets exposed first, like in the case of the city of Bell, California. So now elected officials look at the convictions still going on with even more investigations of Bell's books reaching further and further back into the past and are no longer talking about the bankruptcy option with the same enthusiasm.

And worse, what looked like a perfect way to cut only worker's benefits while leaving administrators and elected benefits untouched instead turns out to cut all ways.

Oakland's public schools have been under bankruptcy court administration for 12+ years and still can't weed out the corruption. Whole lot of Principals for a day, district administrators for a day, years and years of bad administration that took everything they could while leaving nothing for the actual teachers doing the work.

Meanwhile the university of California system is a series of do nothing administrative offices used by the Democrat party to park officials at absurdly high salaries between elections --which is why Janet Napolitano is suddenly chancelor at 400k+ annual salary with no qualifications for the job whatsoever. Paid for by ever higher student tuition.

Good point, spiking is a badass move for the individual but terrible for the system.

When I worked for the government a guy fooled the administration, that despite being a field agent for 30 years, that all of a sudden, a year after he is eligible to retire that he REALLY wants to move to the state capital and take up a head office position.

2 weeks in he's just like "fuck you guys, you fucked me over for years, now its my turn, I'm retiring" and walks out the door with a pension that is now calculated on income that is 20,000 per year higher because he worked a certain job for 2 weeks.

I was impressed, but shit like that destroys the pension for everyone else.

Defined benefit pensions require people to be civil and willing to 'take one for the team' which people don't do anymore, hence they are so screwed up.

Post: #36

Public worker unions are the biggest financial scams ever. They are 'negotiating' with an 'adversary' that gets paid by the same coffers as do the public workers. They have the same employer and the same goals.

Don't get me started. Public employees, I could never do it and sleep well at night, but that is just me.

Post: #37

First, as was noted before, a million ain't jack shit nowadays. Any reasonably diligent and competent middle class household can have a million dollars in accrued wealth by the time the head-of-household is 50.

Second, all of the noise about public sector compensation masks the fact that private sector compensation is flat or falling. Fifty years ago, the pensions and other benefits in the public sector were compensation for lower salaries than the private sector.

Now, with NAFTA, other trade pacts, the resulting decline of manufacturing in the USA, weakened unions, illegal immigration, outsourcing, offshoring, automation, etc., private sector wages have been flat or declining. Squeezing more work for less money and less benefits. Shareholder return dictates. Remember, if corporations are persons, they are basically psychopaths which have no other values than shareholder return in today's environment. It's not like the 1950s when boards and management could apply other values.

The public sector is almost the only place where a person of average or below average cognitive skills can make a decent living nowadays. The rest of the private sector jobs for average and below average people have been cut up into 15-20 hour a week part-time, minimum wage jobs with no benefits. Contrast that with a job for, say, a public sector courthouse or school janitor or lunchroom attendant. If those jobs haven't been privatized, the worker will have a full time job at a livable wage with medical insurance and some kind of pension.

Getting private sector employees to blame public sector workers whose wages have continued to rise in tandem with GDP per capita is a way to hide that their wages have NOT risen in tandem with productivity growth and the company's revenue. The difference between falling or flat wages and rising revenue is called "more profit."

Classic propaganda technique, scapegoating.

Post: #38

A million dollars isn't jack shit? That's easily in the top .1%. What the hell are you guys talking about?

A million doesn't feel as rich as it used to, because of inflation, but put things in perspective. The average income in the USA is $44,321.67.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

How do you think the average people feel? Things are getting more expensive every year and they feel lucky if they can keep their house and car.

Post: #39

(05-20-2014 10:37 AM)Samseau Wrote:  A million dollars isn't jack shit? That's easily in the top .1%. What the hell are you guys talking about?

A million doesn't feel as rich as it used to, because of inflation, but put things in perspective. The average income in the USA is $44,321.67.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

How do you think the average people feel? Things are getting more expensive every year and they feel lucky if they can keep their house and car.

"THEY'RE JUST HATERZZ!"

Post: #40

We all know, or at least we all SHOULD know, what happened to those govt. workers in Europe with their huge pensions.

The same is coming here, but the backlash will hurt all of us, just like it did in Europe.

Post: #41

Again, the misdirection is in the fact that people are getting smarter with their money, it really has nothing to do with the fact they are making 90k a year. If you make 90k a year and have 85k in expenses, it's going to take a hell of a long time to accumulate a million dollars.

Post: #42

(05-20-2014 10:59 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  Again, the misdirection is in the fact that people are getting smarter with their money, it really has nothing to do with the fact they are making 90k a year. If you make 90k a year and have 85k in expenses, it's going to take a hell of a long time to accumulate a million dollars.

What does this have to the do with the fact that public employees are making a lot more on average than private employees, usually for lower quality and slower work? And that this saps our economy. And that this can be shown with graphs that show the lesser average American standard living coincides with more government spending and government jobs.

Post: #43

Tons. What's stopping private sector employees from switching to the public sectors? Firefighters are part time workers, and most have a side gig to compliment their income for example.

Private sectors will include everything from working at mcdonalds to being a CEO at a fortune 500 company. Now, how many CEOs do you have in the country compared to how many employees making minimum wage. Now average that and you'll get where I'm coming from.

Post: #44

(05-20-2014 10:37 AM)Samseau Wrote:  A million dollars isn't jack shit? That's easily in the top .1%. What the hell are you guys talking about?

A million doesn't feel as rich as it used to, because of inflation, but put things in perspective. The average income in the USA is $44,321.67.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

How do you think the average people feel? Things are getting more expensive every year and they feel lucky if they can keep their house and car.

I am not talking about a million in income, but a million in assets - wealth, which has been the standard definition of "millionaire."

It's not really hard to build a million in wealth with a middle class income by age 50, especially in real estate. Of course, these are "paper millionaires" who are not very liquid.

Pension benefits can rack up a big present value. For example, the present value of my military pension payable at age 60 is around half a million. The present value of my Social Security benefits are another $400,000 or so.

That is the kind of "millionaire" the OP was referencing.

Edit: The fact you are confused about what is being talked about shows that this is an effective propaganda theme. Talking about a $2800 a month payment is not as inflammatory as "millionaires!!!"

Post: #45

^^^ Exactly, read my earlier posts.

Post: #46

I know guys like cattle rustler and iknowexactly are very pro government workers even inspite of legitament criticism of the benefit package they get when local governments can't afford it. I'm curious how would you resolve these pension issues when local governments are unable to pay it. These pensions are often expecting 9% plus returns in the stock market every year to stay solvent. What person in a nongovernment gig can expect guaranteed yearly checks like them. Even multimilionares have to adjust their spending to the state if thIeir investments. Only public workers are above the realities of the marketplace.

Post: #47

(05-20-2014 11:13 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  ^^^ Exactly, read my earlier posts.

What you mostly posted about is that this proves that people are getting smarter with their money. Which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Post: #48

The article talks about people who are millionaires, not people who make a million a year.

If you save a lot and invest it in corporate america (fuck main street, wall street all the way), then it's easy to come up with this kind of money.

A million in assets is not top .1%.

Again, government jobs have been the path to a middle class life since the creation of 'murica. Just ask any hillbilly vet or one from the ghetto. How it's bad for men blows me away. Stable good jobs create stable families.

Again, haters gonna hate.

Post: #49

There is a reckoning coming for public sector pensioners in both the US and Canada. Because of the fact that the population is age-heavy (i.e. more older people than younger people) the defined-benefit pension schemes that are most public sector pensions are in essence and effect, Ponzi schemes.

Also, it is fundamentally unfair for the public sector to demand that the private sector workers must save for everyone's retirement.

Read this little ditty about a year ago: http://www.amazon.ca/Pension-Ponzi-Bankr...1118098730

Was written in 2011. The authors estimated that the unfunded liabilities of Canada's public sector pensions would double the national debt (then about $650 million). That was before the unfunded liabilities of our universal "free" healthcare system was added into the mix as well. Pretty scary stuff.

Only 1 out of 5 workers in Canada is in the public sector (unacceptably huge, but still a minority). Are the private sector workers going to go bankrupt for 20% of the population, or is something going to change and change hard?

Post: #50

(05-20-2014 11:46 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The article talks about people who are millionaires, not people who make a million a year.

If you save a lot and invest it in corporate america (fuck main street, wall street all the way), then it's easy to come up with this kind of money.

A million in assets is not top .1%.

Again, government jobs have been the path to a middle class life since the creation of 'murica. Just ask any hillbilly vet or one from the ghetto. How it's bad for men blows me away. Stable good jobs create stable families.

Again, haters gonna hate.

Lol. Right. This trend mostly started in the past 40 years. And surprise: that's when our economy's begun it's decline.