Post: #26

I used to be a professional classical musician.

I had so much passion for it that it was spilling out of my ears. I didn't care about anything else. In fact, I was so damn passionate that all I did was practice, go to rehearsals, go to the vocal studio and go to gigs in a never-ending cycle for 3 grueling years.

I was lucky to have 5 hours of sleep a night. I can't remember how many times I'd fall asleep with my head on the piano, sheet music strewn all over the floor of the tiny, suffocating practice room.

I didn't get nearly the amount of ass I could've. Although the musician thing did some heavy lifting for me. My physical health suffered. I was broke as fuck.

BUT...I was passionate!! :-) :-) :-)

....That's all that matters, right....???

Don't get caught up in the buzzwords. Here's the misunderstood thing about "passion". What is it, exactly? Here's what it is:

It's the fundamental masculine desire to be free to do as you please. To do what excites you, turns you on, makes you feel good about getting up in the morning. Money affords that freedom and a career you truly love affords that freedom too.

The whole point of earning a lot of money is to win your freedom and security. The money isn't the end but a means to your personal ends: travel, good food, entertainment, healthy living, whatever makes you feel good.

In other words, if you have enough money, then you're free to do the things that you're passionate about without any strings attached. But doing something you love isn't going to auto-magically put money in your checking account, pay your bills or support your baby mama.

There's another dimension to your question. If, on the one hand, you choose a mundane but lucrative career, you'll be stacking Benjamins (Jacksons go to wifey) but you'll have no free time to spend it. Well ok, maybe the odd vacation or so. But as Seth Godin said "instead of wondering when your next vacation is, maybe you should set up a life you don't need to escape from."

And let me tell you something else about following a career based on so-called passion. You know what the best way is to turn something you love into something you hate? Make it an obligation. It doesn't sound possible. How can you come to hate something you love when you get to do it every day? Well, when it's the thing that's supposed to put bread on the table yet doesn't do it adequately, that's when you start to see the forest for the trees.

I don't know you and I don't know what's going on inside your head and your heart. But in your position I would choose NEITHER option. I would IMMEDIATELY begin building some kind of internet-based business that allows you freedom of location, freedom of time (more or less), and the potential to earn very good money and develop skills that you will ALWAYS be able to depend on to pay the bills.

Not to mention, true freedom to pursue the things you're passionate about on YOUR own terms, without turning them into an ugly obligation.

Post: #27

(04-17-2014 08:29 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-17-2014 07:19 AM)Steve9 Wrote:  It is not uncommon for experienced Petroleum Engineers to earn $US300K plus.

Key word is experienced.
Also important in Chem E/Petroleum engineering is where you went to school, when you got out, and the state of the industry.

Good friend of my father is an old Chem E. When I was in engineering, I watched him struggle to find work, despite having decades of experience, speaking several languages, and a great degree. The market was down, and who needs a guy in their mid fifties to draw a huge salary and actually use the provided health insurance?

And before people come with the old chestnut of "network", networking tells you that the system is broken. (Hiring in general is broken. How does a 1 hour meeting determine how you will fit, and how well you will do once hired?)

Furthermore, engineering and technical people rarely get to do more than manage a small team. (hell, that's most professions, very few of us rise to management)

But the people giving you your marching orders aren't nearly as smart or capable as you. But getting tracked into engineering, developing the pitfalls of an engineering mindset, is what keeps most technical people beholden to some large organization for most of their lives.

The media will have you believe that STEM or the Trades is the salvation, and that you're not really going to have to seriously change careers several times in your life. Everybody yelllng CS/IT doesn't remember the tech bubble of the 90's and how graduating during the millenium meant more than few lean years, which statistically plagues you for the rest of your life. Now we're in a second internet bubble, and at some point these consumer internet software products will look like pets.com. Pharmacy was all the rage when I was in college, signing bonuses, bmw's. Now the market is full of them, and they new guys are not making the big money, that guys only a few years older made. (and the old guys are always facing corporate pressure)

There will of course be something to replace it. There always is.

But it's foolish to think that 5-10 years from now, the people making the hiring decision for the shiny new job want you instead of the just out of college kid.

We need an experienced person that knows this specific piece of technology that has only existed for past 3 months, and we won't train, nor will we pay the top market price. And won't fail to mention that if this thing doesn't actually do well in the market, we're going to dump you back into the pool of unemployed people.

WIA

Lots of great wisdom dropped in this post.

Anyway, I'll just add that I think it will be very very hard to succeed in the coursework for engineering and science if you don't actually like it, though I have seen some soldier through (I'm talking about guys, when asked, who will tell you, "I actually hate engineering" etc.) and they landed good jobs (FWIW this was when the market was very good). You will have to be totally driven and determined to land that job in order to do so. This will be your motivation to suffer through it. But, will you like the work? One possibility: maybe you'll get bored with engineering and decide to get an MBA. I remember a few people from school taking that path.

Post: #28

I am approaching my mid 30's now, and this is the age where things begin to happen to people. Major life moments.

I see around me peers who have messed around and had fun until now. And I see also the flip side, where people followed a hard coded formula for success; High school, college, university, post grad, career.

Which of these people are the happiest? The ones who know who the fuck they are. The ones that are done trying to "figure themselves out" or trying to "find themselves".

I know guys who are happy working 9-5 in an office and guys who are happy slinging drinks in a bar. And I know guys in both those positions who are miserable.

I just had a beer with a guy who was my best friend from ages 15-23. He has made $500,000 this year so far. On track to push $1.5 million. If you look at his computer all you see is job search tabs open. What makes him happy? Being home to see his kids every night. Thats it.

At one point all he wanted was money. Now that he knows who he actually is (a damned good father) he is getting out.

For myself, I was following in my fathers footsteps of Petroleum Engineering (Directional). After a year of university, I left. Does $2000 a day sound good? Yeah, of course. But at what cost to my creative self, the side that always wanted to be nurtured but was always suppressed.

If I followed the first path, I would not have experienced what I have. I have bounced from $$ to dead broke and back again a dozen times. Each time I climb back up the feeling is surreal. Each time I take a risk and get hammered, its an experience. Almost everything I do, I love. Except the money thing sometimes, but even that has a way of sorting itself out.

Post: #29

It's worth it to figure out if you can pursue a career that you like that simultaneously gives you enough $$. Lot's of people do.

What is enough money? If you strive for money alone as your endpoint you will never get there. Instead, make a list of what you want in life. Money for travel at the level you want. Money for a home where you want it. Money for a certain car if that's your thing. Money for custom made suits. Whatever you want. List it out and figure out what you really need to make to get there. It probably isn't as much as you think. If you make money the goal itself, rather than what you can get with that money, you will never have enough.

Figure out what your strengths are. Then double down on them. Go all in. Some people say to work on your weaknesses to make them stronger. Bullshit. Know your strengths, work on those to make them even stronger, your time dividends will be that much more valuable.Your time is precious, bet big with it when you are likely to win - you will win if you bet on your strengths not your weaknesses.

Center your career or business along your strengths. Build, work hard. Enjoy the ride. You should - because you're the one driving! And there is no end to the road. That's a good thing.

Post: #30

Maybe the US is different; but, in Canada, an engineering degree has pretty much limitless potential. A bachelors degree alone can get you up to $120,000 a year. Eventually an MBA or something is likely required to take it to the next level.

Post: #31

Honestly, in my experience any passion i've had that i've tried to turn into a job ends up with me hating it. I want to have a multitude of different interests and hobbies that make me money.

I also hate the concept of live for work. Who the hell wants to live to work? I work to live. Having to answer to anybody blows hard core.

Post: #32

(04-17-2014 07:06 AM)travolta Wrote:  It's really hard to say. My "career" is my own internet business. I really don't like it much, it usually sucks balls. It does feel really good when I hit something big, but only because I like seeing money flow into my bank account. So yes, I pretty much hate it, but I have a ton of freedom and I've been traveling all over the place for the past 7 months. If not for my tedious and stressful line of work, there's no way I'd be able to live such an awesome lifestyle. Life can't always be perfect. Eventually I want to move onto new things, but I need more capital first. Until then, I'll just continue to travel, fuck foreign women, and sit on my computer forcing myself to do stressful work. I would actually highly recommend this stuff to anyone if you can hack it.

Would you be able to tell us what it is you do exactly or what line of work you're in that allows you to travel so much?

So many people say they make money online through business or internet marketing and then never elaborate and disappear for good. Quite annoying.

That's my ultimate dream and goal, what you're doing. I don't really care how stressful the work is. I'd rather be my own boss.

Post: #33

Bumping this thread. I am at that point of my early 20's where this advice is crucial.

Post: #34

Go for a career you like. I didn't really know waht I wanted to do in college but looking back either wouldn't have gone at all or would have gone for teaching.

I have 3 cousins who teach, now we live in a good paying area for teachers so maybe not as great for everyone but all of them started out making about 50k a year, every sport or activity they coach is another 6k to 10k, they all got their masters paid for and on top of that the teachers actually came to their school after the school day to teach the accelerated masters program, they then got a raise for that free masters they got totally paid for in a super convenient way.

One of my cousins is younger, not sure how much she makes but doing well, I have two older cousins who make nearly 100k as a gym teachers no lie. Every summer while I'm still working they are at their lake house, out on a boat, spending time with their kids, traveling, etc.

Now as a teacher you tend to have a lot of free time in addition to summers off so you could easily start a side business or make money online as well.

I know a lot of buddies who went to school for business over pursuing a passion wanting money and honestly unless your in sales of a higher performer most people are going to come out of school with some general office job making 35k or 40k and are going to work years to get raised up to like 65k or 70k and that's an income a teacher could make in a good district with less stress, more free time, better healthcare and pension, etc.

Post: #35

Go for something you like. If you pick something miserable you will:
1 - Be miserable
2 - Probably burn out before it's time to cash out
3 - Spent time doing something miserable instead of doing what you like
4 - Have lost your valuable time that you cannot get back

Trust me, I got a nice job that paid well (55k out of college with an arts degree, normal in Texas is 35K) but was over stressed and gained weight. Attrition was through the roof so I rose up quickly, made more money. Promoted to a position I loved but the office environment was worse than a snake pit. The checks were fucking great, but thinking about work at night sucked. Many niggas wanted to go for the $$$ but said fuck it and quit before they were able to see the money start rolling, so they wasted their time and never got to see the money.

Now I'm out and taking some lessons to retool my skillset into something I can do on my own and that I like....which means I will have to start again from the bottom in a new field. Plus, when you like doing something you do a better job naturally which will quickly get you promoted/noticed.

Post: #36

(08-03-2016 01:24 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Go for something you like. If you pick something miserable you will:
1 - Be miserable
2 - Probably burn out before it's time to cash out
3 - Spent time doing something miserable instead of doing what you like
4 - Have lost your valuable time that you cannot get back

Trust me, I got a nice job that paid well (55k out of college with an arts degree, normal in Texas is 35K) but was over stressed and gained weight. Attrition was through the roof so I rose up quickly, made more money. Promoted to a position I loved but the office environment was worse than a snake pit. The checks were fucking great, but thinking about work at night sucked. Many niggas wanted to go for the $$$ but said fuck it and quit before they were able to see the money start rolling, so they wasted their time and never got to see the money.

Now I'm out and taking some lessons to retool my skillset into something I can do on my own and that I like....which means I will have to start again from the bottom in a new field. Plus, when you like doing something you do a better job naturally which will quickly get you promoted/noticed.

I can definately relate to the dreading work the night before thing. I remember working in the city at an internet startup, overall cool environment ie startup environment but hated the actual job and the women I was working under.

Anyhow, I would need to wake up early as I was living in the burbs and had to take the train into the city. I remember staying up at night til like 3am watching shit tv, reason being I knew my next waking moment would be going to work and it was that miserable I would situp dreading it.

Wound up leaving, got a job making about half that but very low stress, lots of free time, very chill. Money was shit but actually didn't mind going to work and that is priceless to me, peace of mind beats money anyday in my book. Anyhow, what this bs job allowed me to do is use probably 3/4 of my day blogging, working on internet businessses, etc. It's actually that job where I saw the opportunity for my current business. I wound up leaving that job to start my own business which is what I'm doing today.

Post: #37

I don't think you should go fo reither extreme but find a compromise of both.

Following your passion is great, but there are many fields (the artistic ones in particular) in which you can have great passion, drive, talent and hard work and yet 99.9% of the time barely eke a living in your field. In such cases it's often better to give it a couple of years of hard effort and then face reality and not abandon your passion, but find a separate way to make a living and make the artistic aspect an avocation.

At the same time there are more considerations than money. In my opinion, if you hate your work or it consumes every waking moment it would be better to find something that allows you to make a comfortable living doing something that you like -- not necessarily love,but don't hate either.

Post: #38

So here's the deal.

How many people do you know that have "pursued their passion" and now love their life?

And people that write blogs about the topic don't count.

Also, keep in mind that if you become really good at something, you tend to develop a passion for it.

We like the things we're good at.

I'm not advocating going for the money. I'm also not advocating "following your passion," whatever that even means.

For you younger guys out there, here goes.

Find a skill that's:

1. Monetarily viable now.
2. Looks like the market for it will last for a while.
3. Plays to your strengths.

Then:

1. Dive deep, 100%, no distractions, and once you've got some knowledge under your belt, start networking with others in that field who are where you want to be. Eventually, once you get good enough, you'll be able to monetize the skill, and from then on, just keep raising your rates until you're able to not only command top dollar, but also, to set your working conditions.

During this process, if your have the mind for entrepreneurship, the paths available for you to take will turn from a few to many.

Read "So Good They Can't Ignore You," By Cal Newport.

Post: #39

One thing that nobody is pointing out.

Going into a high-paying career is 100x easier when you're young than when you're old. There is a window, and it closes once you hit a certain age. If you wanted to teach, you could teach at 27 years old, without much competition from 22 y/o college grads.

The opposite is not true for jobs in high-finance, engineering, etc. While you hear about normal people getting "coding" jobs, a 27 y/o community college grad is not beating out a 22 y/o UC Berkeley grad for an iOS developer position at Facebook. Not going to happen. And most high-finance jobs recruit directly out of undergrad/MBA programs.

Lastly, if you do want to go into a high-paying job, go into what you're *good" at. If you're interested in a specific engineering class, take the 2 core classes for that program. One will be an intro class, and the second will be the weeder class. Everybody aces the intro class. The second weeder class will determine if you've got what it takes to make it in the field. Use this to determine which path to take, if you end up pursing the path of $$$.

Post: #40

Something nobody in this thread is talking about: probabilities. Play the odds.

Don't confuse that with the "take the sure thing"

I'm saying if you really enjoy being in middle of it all, a ball busting work environment, and like starting work @ 7 AM, and need the buzz. Take a swing and go for CRE.

If you are doing something solely for the money, you're lost.

If you're doing something solely for the passion, you've lost.

Passion is different from interest which is different from excitement.

I believe interest is the key. Can you map forward 10-15 years on varying levels of responsibility? GREAT!

Can you only see the next commission check? Unless you have external motivations (kids, debtors prison, etc) you very well could burn out.

Not everyone gets to be intellectually stimulated by what they do but you should at least find some joy.

I recruited for long enough and talk to thousands of prospects and the people that had an innate interest always win.

If you have any specific questions about career paths or types of jobs, you can send me a PM

Post: #41

(04-17-2014 01:28 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(04-17-2014 08:29 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-17-2014 07:19 AM)Steve9 Wrote:  It is not uncommon for experienced Petroleum Engineers to earn $US300K plus.

Key word is experienced.
Also important in Chem E/Petroleum engineering is where you went to school, when you got out, and the state of the industry.

Good friend of my father is an old Chem E. When I was in engineering, I watched him struggle to find work, despite having decades of experience, speaking several languages, and a great degree. The market was down, and who needs a guy in their mid fifties to draw a huge salary and actually use the provided health insurance?

And before people come with the old chestnut of "network", networking tells you that the system is broken. (Hiring in general is broken. How does a 1 hour meeting determine how you will fit, and how well you will do once hired?)

Furthermore, engineering and technical people rarely get to do more than manage a small team. (hell, that's most professions, very few of us rise to management)

But the people giving you your marching orders aren't nearly as smart or capable as you. But getting tracked into engineering, developing the pitfalls of an engineering mindset, is what keeps most technical people beholden to some large organization for most of their lives.

The media will have you believe that STEM or the Trades is the salvation, and that you're not really going to have to seriously change careers several times in your life. Everybody yelllng CS/IT doesn't remember the tech bubble of the 90's and how graduating during the millenium meant more than few lean years, which statistically plagues you for the rest of your life. Now we're in a second internet bubble, and at some point these consumer internet software products will look like pets.com. Pharmacy was all the rage when I was in college, signing bonuses, bmw's. Now the market is full of them, and they new guys are not making the big money, that guys only a few years older made. (and the old guys are always facing corporate pressure)

There will of course be something to replace it. There always is.

But it's foolish to think that 5-10 years from now, the people making the hiring decision for the shiny new job want you instead of the just out of college kid.

We need an experienced person that knows this specific piece of technology that has only existed for past 3 months, and we won't train, nor will we pay the top market price. And won't fail to mention that if this thing doesn't actually do well in the market, we're going to dump you back into the pool of unemployed people.

WIA

Lots of great wisdom dropped in this post.

Anyway, I'll just add that I think it will be very very hard to succeed in the coursework for engineering and science if you don't actually like it, though I have seen some soldier through (I'm talking about guys, when asked, who will tell you, "I actually hate engineering" etc.) and they landed good jobs (FWIW this was when the market was very good). You will have to be totally driven and determined to land that job in order to do so. This will be your motivation to suffer through it. But, will you like the work? One possibility: maybe you'll get bored with engineering and decide to get an MBA. I remember a few people from school taking that path.

I agree. From my experience, most engineering degrees start you off with something like "pre-engineering." Often it's a grueling course that weeds out a lot of the freshman that are attracted to engineering but can't handle the grit. It's a good thing imo.

Post: #42

I don't really like doing anything as a job, so I'm going for $$$ (more like $-$$, still not complaining).

I mean, I can't think of any activity I would enjoy doing Monday to Friday 9-5 having to wake up to an alarm clock and commute to/from work. Even if I had to bang models Monday to Friday 9 to 5, I would hate it after awhile.

Go for the money as long as the job is not something you absolutely hate doing. Live below your means and retire early.

Post: #43

The MBA market is saturated as well. The odder part is when you have kids who went from undergrad to bschool right away and now think they can run a F500 company with no real world experience.

The new frontier will be healthcare, all the babyboomers are getting old and antibiotics are not as effective anymore. The bad part is that are very picky and require a shit ton of useless certifications, those take time and money to get and some jobs will not pay for it.

In my previous position I had a ton of responsibilities.....running an entire branch (payroll/billing for 150 clients/300+ employees along with recruiting). Some places won't take me because I'm not a Certified Professional Coder/Biller or have an active Administrator license or MPH (Master Public Health). The first position pays 10-16 an hour. the Admin gigs pay 65K+ but require 3 years exp, I have 2yrs 9 months so they disqualify me. Really? Over 3 months. Plus all the laid off O&G folks are crowding out the other industries and suppressing wages.

Laid off O&G folks are the illegal immigrants of Houston, messing it up for the rest of us.

Post: #44

I would try to combine hobby (Passion) skillsets with hard marketable skills. I have a family member who can do interior design like a boss, but she worked in sales for over a decade. Her business? Convincing rich people and businesses that they need to redo their buildings and stuff. She has more clients than she has time for. She has so many clients that she had a secretary and is even trying to hire another person to take over some of the work load. I think passion isn't to be ignored, but passion alone isn't a strategy. Take something you like and try to combine it with something that makes money.

Post: #45

(11-03-2016 08:30 PM)greekgod Wrote:  Not everyone gets to be intellectually stimulated by what they do but you should at least find some joy.

I recruited for long enough and talk to thousands of prospects and the people that had an innate interest always win.

That is a good insight.

I personally dont know one person who hates his job but also managed to do very well financially.

Most people I know who hate their jobs are doing "OK" and coasting, and living for the weekend.

The guys I know who are crushing it in tough jobs dont necessarily love their daily work, in but they are kind of obsessed with it, and deeply committed/ "into" it.

It looks like tiring grind, but not unpleasant or soul-destroying. I dont know anyone who stacked cash via pure miserable grind, but I assume such people do exist.

Post: #46

(11-04-2016 08:32 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I would try to combine hobby (Passion) skillsets with hard marketable skills. I have a family member who can do interior design like a boss, but she worked in sales for over a decade. Her business? Convincing rich people and businesses that they need to redo their buildings and stuff. She has more clients than she has time for. She has so many clients that she had a secretary and is even trying to hire another person to take over some of the work load. I think passion isn't to be ignored, but passion alone isn't a strategy. Take something you like and try to combine it with something that makes money.

There's also a bit more going on there:

1)Lucrative, high-end market
2)She has 10 years of exp in maybe *the* most important factor in a client-based business - i.e. sales

These points are so key to stacking $$. Making sure your strengths/skills align with what's required for success in your biz model, and also simply swimming in the right waters - e.g. lucrative, high-end (and ideally high-growth) industry.

Post: #47

(11-04-2016 08:23 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The MBA market is saturated as well. The odder part is when you have kids who went from undergrad to bschool right away and now think they can run a F500 company with no real world experience.

Depends to some extent. For low-tier MBA's absolutely. Top tier MBA degrees (Anything top 15 realistically speaking) make it easy to walk right into six figure F500, consulting, finance, and similar jobs assuming you prepare well for interviews and have good social skills. Bad news is those jobs aren't doing so hot at this stage of the Obama economy.

Also note that I'm talking strictly about two year, full time MBA degrees. There is a significant bias against part time or distance MBAs and kids with MBAs straight out of undergrad are generally viewed as undergrads with a few more classes.



Personally I would argue "none of the above". Figure out what you do best and what medium you do it best in(print, voice, in person?) and take it from there. Passion with no skills won't get you anything and if you just go after the money you won't ever be good enough at it to make the money any field promises.

Post: #48

(11-07-2016 10:33 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

(11-03-2016 08:30 PM)greekgod Wrote:  Not everyone gets to be intellectually stimulated by what they do but you should at least find some joy.

I recruited for long enough and talk to thousands of prospects and the people that had an innate interest always win.

That is a good insight.

I personally dont know one person who hates his job but also managed to do very well financially.

Most people I know who hate their jobs are doing "OK" and coasting, and living for the weekend.

The guys I know who are crushing it in tough jobs dont necessarily love their daily work, in but they are kind of obsessed with it, and deeply committed/ "into" it.

It looks like tiring grind, but not unpleasant or soul-destroying. I dont know anyone who stacked cash via pure miserable grind, but I assume such people do exist.

Yes, there is an inner motivation to explore something. A tinkering if you will.

Like the kid who reads his book under the covers with a flashlight.

Being motivated by money won't beat this. Not everyone gets this mindset but those who do, well, they're golden.

Post: #49

^ I'm seeing a lot of this here about passion and doing what you love.

It's bullshit, when you make money, that can then become your passion and doing what you love.

Post: #50

^What comes first? Initiative or money?