Post: #26

If any of you seriously want to increase your maxes I highly recommend 5/3/1. This program has added 100 lbs to my deadlift in a little over a year and a half, and thats with 3 months of radiation treatment that tremendously lowered my strength: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti...e_strength

To get the full benefit you will want to buy the e-book but this is a primer.

Post: #27

I dont believe that benching 164 pounds weighing 181 pounds is advanced..

Edit: just realized that it's press not bench press, I take that back

Post: #28

(03-07-2014 11:53 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  It suggests that less than 1% of weightlifters reach elite lifts. A lot more than 1% of weight lifters use "help." I thought the numbers were in general pretty high. The guys I see at my gym who have "advanced lifts" are in absolutely great shape. I think there might be 1 guy in my entire gym who reaches the elite category and even then I'd be surprised.

Elite standards in powerlifting and weightlifting maybe (and despite that, in my country, they are too low even for natural lifters).

Not those Crossfit elite standards posted in this thread. Those are very achievable for the average drug-free person. The Crossfit standards are like grades at school these days - too easy, very much inflated. They may seem high if people around you aren't lifting anything serious, but if you're in a gym where people aren't fucking around and you're coached by those who know what they're doing, the crossfit numbers are pretty low.

This is not just lifting, but applies to anything else in life. If you're around people who have high standards, you tend to raise your game a lot more.

This is not to say that you have to pursue some elite strength standards if that's not your goal, but don't falsely believe you need drugs or top genetics to achieve that either.

Post: #29

(03-08-2014 01:53 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(03-07-2014 11:53 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  It suggests that less than 1% of weightlifters reach elite lifts. A lot more than 1% of weight lifters use "help." I thought the numbers were in general pretty high. The guys I see at my gym who have "advanced lifts" are in absolutely great shape. I think there might be 1 guy in my entire gym who reaches the elite category and even then I'd be surprised.

Elite standards in powerlifting and weightlifting maybe (and despite that, in my country, they are too low even for natural lifters).

Not those Crossfit elite standards posted in this thread. Those are very achievable for the average drug-free person. The Crossfit standards are like grades at school these days - too easy, very much inflated. They may seem high if people around you aren't lifting anything serious, but if you're in a gym where people aren't fucking around and you're coached by those who know what they're doing, the crossfit numbers are pretty low.

This is not just lifting, but applies to anything else in life. If you're around people who have high standards, you tend to raise your game a lot more.

This is not to say that you have to pursue some elite strength standards if that's not your goal, but don't falsely believe you need drugs or top genetics to achieve that either.

So are you saying that the numbers for squat, bench and, deadlift on that chart are harder to reach than the crossfit lifts on the same chart?

Post: #30

(03-08-2014 01:53 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(03-07-2014 11:53 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  It suggests that less than 1% of weightlifters reach elite lifts. A lot more than 1% of weight lifters use "help." I thought the numbers were in general pretty high. The guys I see at my gym who have "advanced lifts" are in absolutely great shape. I think there might be 1 guy in my entire gym who reaches the elite category and even then I'd be surprised.

Elite standards in powerlifting and weightlifting maybe (and despite that, in my country, they are too low even for natural lifters).

Not those Crossfit elite standards posted in this thread. Those are very achievable for the average drug-free person. The Crossfit standards are like grades at school these days - too easy, very much inflated. They may seem high if people around you aren't lifting anything serious, but if you're in a gym where people aren't fucking around and you're coached by those who know what they're doing, the crossfit numbers are pretty low.

This is not just lifting, but applies to anything else in life. If you're around people who have high standards, you tend to raise your game a lot more.

This is not to say that you have to pursue some elite strength standards if that's not your goal, but don't falsely believe you need drugs or top genetics to achieve that either.

E-statting.

I've been to many gyms and nowhere did I see those amazing lifts with such frequency that is being claimed online.

Post: #31

(03-07-2014 08:30 PM)Vroom Wrote:  I always thought my overhead press was a weak point, but according to this chart it's actually my strongest lift. I'm advanced on this but only intermediate on all others.

Same for me. I would have thought that a 1.5 bodyweight bench would put me into advanced, but apparently I still have another 9 lbs to go. Meanwhile I can't even press bodyweight, but apparently I'm advanced in that lift. Seems a bit off, as I don't consider myself to be a particularly good presser.

I've always followed the classic standards of bodyweight press, 1.5 x bodyweight bench, 2 x bodyweight squat, and 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift. While not amazing, they're pretty solid standards.

Post: #32

(03-08-2014 08:07 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

(03-07-2014 08:30 PM)Vroom Wrote:  I always thought my overhead press was a weak point, but according to this chart it's actually my strongest lift. I'm advanced on this but only intermediate on all others.

Same for me. I would have thought that a 1.5 bodyweight bench would put me into advanced, but apparently I still have another 9 lbs to go. Meanwhile I can't even press bodyweight, but apparently I'm advanced in that lift. Seems a bit off, as I don't consider myself to be a particularly good presser.

I've always followed the classic standards of bodyweight press, 1.5 x bodyweight bench, 2 x bodyweight squat, and 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift. While not amazing, they're pretty solid standards.

They're skewed towards lighter lifters.

A 60 kg dude with a 150kg deadlift is definitely impressive, but not as much as a 100kg dude with a 250kg deadlift which would be truly elite (drug free).

There isn't a 1 to 1 relationship between bodyweight and strength. Some of it depends on bone density and size too.

Maybe if you did it according to lean muscle mass it would make more sense.

As for the overhead press if we're using that method though, I've been told bodyweight overhead press is pretty good, but again, can you really compare a 60 kg ohp to a 100 kg ohp?

Post: #33

Makes sense.

Post: #34

full disclosure this chart was produced by the same guys that wrote Starting Strength. I come in at advanced except for my deadlift because of persistent disc herniation as a result of ski accidents as a kid.

Advanced should be viewed as a baseline for strength/power sports. Even though I have friends that are pro athletes that easily hit the Elite numbers.

Post: #35

One of the things that muddles the picture is drug use. I am not against people juicing at all, might do so a couple of years from now, but it does skew the perception of what a good lift is. For example, a 200kg deadlift is damn strong, but not particularly great lift for a lifter on juice (who has lifted for a while). It would actually be very interesting if someone was honest about how much more they gained on their lift from say 6 months on juice.

Post: #36

I do 8x squat on one leg, no support. Where does it belong there?

Post: #37

Rippetoe renamed the various categories because they were confusing people about being "advanced" or otherwise.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/fo...hp?t=33029

Post: #38

For anyone really interested in fitness it should be obvious that this is a limited metric. And I'm not just saying that because my lifts suck right now.

When I was strictly following the stronglifts routine and got my deadlift up to 350, I would play around with bodyweight exercises. I think I could squeeze out 2, maybe 3 pull ups. (overhand, not chin ups)

I would probably struggle with deadlifting 315 right now, but I can crank out 10 pull ups like they're nothing. I'm significantly leaner than when I was lifting heavier. Plan is to shred down as much as possible throughout summer, then sometime in the fall start bulking and lifting heavy again.

Point is strength is relative.

Post: #39

(03-08-2014 01:53 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(03-07-2014 11:53 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  It suggests that less than 1% of weightlifters reach elite lifts. A lot more than 1% of weight lifters use "help." I thought the numbers were in general pretty high. The guys I see at my gym who have "advanced lifts" are in absolutely great shape. I think there might be 1 guy in my entire gym who reaches the elite category and even then I'd be surprised.

Elite standards in powerlifting and weightlifting maybe (and despite that, in my country, they are too low even for natural lifters).

Not those Crossfit elite standards posted in this thread. Those are very achievable for the average drug-free person. The Crossfit standards are like grades at school these days - too easy, very much inflated. They may seem high if people around you aren't lifting anything serious, but if you're in a gym where people aren't fucking around and you're coached by those who know what they're doing, the crossfit numbers are pretty low.

This is not just lifting, but applies to anything else in life. If you're around people who have high standards, you tend to raise your game a lot more.

This is not to say that you have to pursue some elite strength standards if that's not your goal, but don't falsely believe you need drugs or top genetics to achieve that either.

I would agree in the heavier weight classes, but not the lighter ones.

A 165lb guy benching 319 for example is not normal, and I would bet that would put him in the top fraction of 1% of 165lb men worldwide.

The 200lb+ plus guy's elite standards seem quite a lot more reasonable.

TL;DR: the difference between the "Advanced" and "Elite" standards on this chart is monstrous, and would represent significant lifestyle changes.

Post: #40

I wouldn't sweat it guys. I'm intermediate to advance on all lifts but I'll never get close elite unless I start back up on creatine/protein.

Props to the guys who are really into lifting as some of these numbers are monsterous.

Post: #41

I'm glad Rippetoe & Co changed the category names because people get their ego too attached to "Advanced" and "Elite".

"Elite" is meant to be tough, and you have to earn it. An elite athlete is one that is meant to be competitive on the world stage. You're nowhere near making the team to the IPF world championship (and yes, drug free, for the guys who always call people stronger than them drug users) with those Crossfit "elite" lifts.

The actual elite standards in lifting require talented athletes with 8-10 years hard training to achieve.

FYI, a 200kg (440lb) deadlift is very achievable within the first couple of years for anyone even the small guys. It sounds very hard if you're lifting by yourself with no guidance, but if you're coached by good lifters, it is not hard at all. And no it doesn't make you strong.

I pulled that in the 181lb class at the end of my very first year of training (so 12 months). I'm of very mediocre talent and genetics, strength-wise. To give an example, I got my first gym membership at almost 24 y.o (after taking the Red Pill), and as I was tested by the PT assigned to me, I could not even do a single pushup.

And yes I'm drug free. If I were to take some, I'd be pulling 270kg / 600lb by now lol

thedude Wrote:For anyone really interested in fitness it should be obvious that this is a limited metric. And I'm not just saying that because my lifts suck right now.

When I was strictly following the stronglifts routine and got my deadlift up to 350, I would play around with bodyweight exercises. I think I could squeeze out 2, maybe 3 pull ups. (overhand, not chin ups)

I would probably struggle with deadlifting 315 right now, but I can crank out 10 pull ups like they're nothing. I'm significantly leaner than when I was lifting heavier. Plan is to shred down as much as possible throughout summer, then sometime in the fall start bulking and lifting heavy again.

Point is strength is relative.

This has more to do with you getting leaner. Bodyweight exercises get easier when you're lighter, obviously.

There's no reason why lifting weights can't improve your bodyweight movements. Weaklifts is just a bad routine, that's all. Like Slowing Strength, it's designed to make people eat their way through lifting sessions, so as they get "stronger", their pound to pound strength drops like a stone. Also as they grind through their lifts to get the over-hyped 5 reps, they get slower and less athletic too.

You want to get stronger, leaner and more athletic. That's what we want to train for. Not stronger, GOMAD fatter and failing to walk upstairs without huffing & puffing.

Incidentally back when I deadlifted 350lb, I could do about 2-3 pullups as well. Was a bit chubby then at 185lb. I'm now 165lb with a 500lb deadlift, hardly train pullups (other than occasionally on the weekends with some mates for fun) and my max is 18 from dead hang the other day (could've done more with better grip endurance).

Post: #42

(03-09-2014 08:16 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  I'm glad Rippetoe & Co changed the category names because people get their ego too attached to "Advanced" and "Elite".

"Elite" is meant to be tough, and you have to earn it. An elite athlete is one that is meant to be competitive on the world stage. You're nowhere near making the team to the IPF world championship (and yes, drug free, for the guys who always call people stronger than them drug users) with those Crossfit "elite" lifts.

The actual elite standards in lifting require talented athletes with 8-10 years hard training to achieve.

FYI, a 200kg (440lb) deadlift is very achievable within the first couple of years for anyone even the small guys. It sounds very hard if you're lifting by yourself with no guidance, but if you're coached by good lifters, it is not hard at all. And no it doesn't make you strong.

I pulled that in the 181lb class at the end of my very first year of training (so 12 months). I'm of very mediocre talent and genetics, strength-wise. To give an example, I got my first gym membership at almost 24 y.o (after taking the Red Pill), and as I was tested by the PT assigned to me, I could not even do a single pushup.

And yes I'm drug free. If I were to take some, I'd be pulling 270kg / 600lb by now lol

thedude Wrote:For anyone really interested in fitness it should be obvious that this is a limited metric. And I'm not just saying that because my lifts suck right now.

When I was strictly following the stronglifts routine and got my deadlift up to 350, I would play around with bodyweight exercises. I think I could squeeze out 2, maybe 3 pull ups. (overhand, not chin ups)

I would probably struggle with deadlifting 315 right now, but I can crank out 10 pull ups like they're nothing. I'm significantly leaner than when I was lifting heavier. Plan is to shred down as much as possible throughout summer, then sometime in the fall start bulking and lifting heavy again.

Point is strength is relative.

This has more to do with you getting leaner. Bodyweight exercises get easier when you're lighter, obviously.

There's no reason why lifting weights can't improve your bodyweight movements. Weaklifts is just a bad routine, that's all. Like Slowing Strength, it's designed to make people eat their way through lifting sessions, so as they get "stronger", their pound to pound strength drops like a stone. Also as they grind through their lifts to get the over-hyped 5 reps, they get slower and less athletic too.

You want to get stronger, leaner and more athletic. That's what we want to train for. Not stronger, GOMAD fatter and failing to walk upstairs without huffing & puffing.

Incidentally back when I deadlifted 350lb, I could do about 2-3 pullups as well. Was a bit chubby then at 185lb. I'm now 165lb with a 500lb deadlift, hardly train pullups (other than occasionally on the weekends with some mates for fun) and my max is 18 from dead hang the other day (could've done more with better grip endurance).

well then what program do you do?

Post: #43

I'd be curious about what MikeCF has to say about this.

While it is great that there is some chart telling you where you fall, I think what really matters is that you are concerned about your stats from a perspective of continuing to get better. Somewhere I read you need to measure yourself to improve, so if you have a handle on your numbers you know what you are trying to improve on.

Hopefully, you are just competing with yourself, trying to be a better man each day.

I doubt anyone is losing sleep over this.

Post: #44

(03-09-2014 08:16 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  There's no reason why lifting weights can't improve your bodyweight movements. Weaklifts is just a bad routine, that's all. Like Slowing Strength, it's designed to make people eat their way through lifting sessions, so as they get "stronger", their pound to pound strength drops like a stone. Also as they grind through their lifts to get the over-hyped 5 reps, they get slower and less athletic too.

You want to get stronger, leaner and more athletic. That's what we want to train for. Not stronger, GOMAD fatter and failing to walk upstairs without huffing & puffing.

Incidentally back when I deadlifted 350lb, I could do about 2-3 pullups as well. Was a bit chubby then at 185lb. I'm now 165lb with a 500lb deadlift, hardly train pullups (other than occasionally on the weekends with some mates for fun) and my max is 18 from dead hang the other day (could've done more with better grip endurance).

This is the second time you've come out against SS and SL. I would be very interested in hearing what your training regimen is and I'm sure other guys would too. 500DL at 165 is a hell of a feat. If you don't mind, what's your weekly training schedule like and how long have you been using it?

Post: #45

Just FTR, my goal in this thread is to let people know that they are capable of more. I'm lucky that I regularly get to see guys with very ordinary genetics achieve great feats of strength that tend to bring up suggestions of drugs or freak genetics from others.

I bag SS and SL a bit to make a point because they often get recommended to everyone regardless of goals. Those two routines are fantastic for skinny hardgainers who want to get bigger and stronger. Not so good when given to guys with other goals and who have different builds.

A famous Russian coach once expressed incredulity at the fact that most lifters from these Anglo countries (he was talking about America and Australia in particular) download generic programs off the Internet and generate training numbers from spreadsheets. People were joking with him that the only reason his lifters are (a shitload) stronger is because of drugs. He countered that, upon hearing about the generic Internet programs, it is actually due to coaching.

I don't have a program to follow. I have a number of training principles (learned from various coaches) which I then write a program (either for myself or someone else) off depending on the immediate goals and the lifter's personal weaknesses. Some examples:

* At the core, it is all about weakness correction. Sort out your weaknesses and hit them hard, top to bottom (most time & effort on weakest one). Guaranteed to get stronger.

* Train to success, not to failures. You'll be amazed how fast you actually progress while not beating yourself up every session, and the reason is because you can make progress for much longer. Leave the gym feeling like you're ready to conquer the world, not ready for the ER.

* Leave a few reps in the tank every set, and lift as explosively as you can, no exception. There's no benefit to being slow.

* Train the movements, not the individual muscles. The body is a unit, not a collection of body parts. Isolation exercises are only done to support the main movements where necessary.

* Strength is a skill. You practice it just like kicking a ball in a ball sport.

My current program is a powerlifting adaptation of the Chinese weightlifting system. I don't necessarily recommend it to everyone because you need to have a certain work capacity before you can take it on (not to mention that it's only for powerlifters). It also requires you to know your body and weaknesses pretty well, i.e a kind of intuitive go-by-feel training. I've been on it for about 6 months.

It consists of a variety of squatting 4-6x weekly, press (many types) daily, deadlift 1 or 2x weekly and plenty of back, core and arm exercises. Reps are in the 2-3 range, done explosively, sets are numbered so high I often lose count (a big reason behind this is to get stronger but not bigger, so not for everyone). I hit a max or two (with no psych-up) in sessions when I feel good. I do very few exercises per session - 3 or 4 usually. A couple are long (3h), many are relatively short (1h incl warmups & cool down). Some sessions I just go in and do whatever I think is fun. Some sessions I just go in and punch the clock (i.e get the minimal done) because I feel absolute shit (although sometimes how you feel at the start is a lie, you get better later on). There are also slots for team sports (I play some social soccer and touch footy), yoga, swimming, running, climbing, and sauna / spa.

I divide my training cycle into 4-weeks blocks, each focuses on certain things. First block is called off season when the training is rather random. Within each block, first 3 weeks are hard training, last week is somewhat of a deload where volume drops by half.

Most programs I write are for competing powerlifters like myself. The ones I write for non-powerlifters are for friends and family, who train for general health & fitness. They pretty much have the same exercises: squat, press, pull, core, arms, conditioning etc. but with minimal equipments (just bodyweight where possible), different reps & sets and more focus on quality movements than simply getting stronger (the latter is set at very conservative pace). The only key difference is that I get them to do high bar squats, not low bar, and usually I don't get them to do any full deadlift (except for a few with the right build) but other back exercises instead.

If you're not a powerlifter and need to start somewhere, I suggest giving Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 a try, because it's very flexible on assistant exercises, where you can select the right ones to tackle your weaknesses. For non-powerlifters, the movement (and quality of) is more important than the weight on the bar - e.g the fact that you're squatting and doing so with good technique is way more important than the weight you squat. I recommend two books to get you started on the right assistant exercises: Beyond Bodybuilding and Easy Strength, both by Pavel Tsatouline.

Remember, there is no single best program (else everyone would be doing it already). Nobody can truly give you the best for you, not even the best coaches, who can only guide you to find it. You gotta learn how your body works, learn a bit here & there from others where relevant, as you put in your training effort and eventually figure it out for yourself. Once you understand training principles though (they apply to everybody), coming up with a program with its exercises and rep/set scheme is pretty easy.

Post: #46

I'm doing SS but I'm glad to discuss/learn about other perspectives/ programs. SS has been good for me as I knew nothing about lifting. I'm not sure what I will do when I move on (which can't be far off I imagine) - I've looked into 5/3/1, Madcow, and Texas Method.

Strikeback, how do you determine what your weaknesses are?

Post: #47

(03-09-2014 11:58 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Most programs I write are for competing powerlifters like myself. The ones I write for non-powerlifters are for friends and family, who train for general health & fitness. They pretty much have the same exercises: squat, press, pull, core, arms, conditioning etc. but with minimal equipments (just bodyweight where possible), different reps & sets and more focus on quality movements than simply getting stronger (the latter is set at very conservative pace). The only key difference is that I get them to do high bar squats, not low bar, and usually I don't get them to do any full deadlift (except for a few with the right build) but other back exercises instead.

Thanks for this write up -- One question : Why don't you include full deadlifts in your plans for non-powerlifters?

Thanks

Post: #48

(03-09-2014 11:58 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  You gotta learn how your body works, learn a bit here & there from others where relevant, as you put in your training effort and eventually figure it out for yourself. Once you understand training principles though (they apply to everybody), coming up with a program with its exercises and rep/set scheme is pretty easy.

Great information. What do you think about rest periods between sets? Some programs recommend long ones (5-10 minutes!) while others insist that you should keep them short (1 minute max).

I'm under the impression that long rest periods are better for strength training but I simply don't have the time to burn. Does it make a difference for strength/mass gains?

Post: #49

(03-11-2014 04:38 AM)dreambig Wrote:  I'm under the impression that long rest periods are better for strength training but I simply don't have the time to burn. Does it make a difference for strength/mass gains?

Your lifestyle and persona must be congruent with your training.

Strong alpha lions and silverback gorillas have all the time in the world they lift slowly, move slowly when outside of combat and rest for most part of day pondering the great questions of life and occasionally mounting some female.

The little chipmunks and ants are all around the place nervously running from one task to another, they have no free time as they must please their masters and no time to rest, no time to blink.

Acquire time if you want to be strong. Be a king.

Post: #50

(03-11-2014 04:38 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

(03-09-2014 11:58 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  You gotta learn how your body works, learn a bit here & there from others where relevant, as you put in your training effort and eventually figure it out for yourself. Once you understand training principles though (they apply to everybody), coming up with a program with its exercises and rep/set scheme is pretty easy.

Great information. What do you think about rest periods between sets? Some programs recommend long ones (5-10 minutes!) while others insist that you should keep them short (1 minute max).

I'm under the impression that long rest periods are better for strength training but I simply don't have the time to burn. Does it make a difference for strength/mass gains?

I'm obviously not a trainer but what I do is after a warm up I do 3 x 6 with a long rest in between (3-4 min), and then drop the weights and lower the rest periods to train for muscle endurance.