Post: #1

Let me see if I can put this question into words.

Most guys, go to work their whole life and never get a 'peak behind the curtain'.

As such - they inbibe a sense of the amount of work/effort/skill it takes to earn money.

You do X,Y,Z and the marketplace will pay you a certain amount of money. With most jobs offering a similar rate of return depending on how difficult it is - or how many qualifications are needed to get the job in the first place.

Over time - you get a feel for the 'supply and demand' in the marketplace as an employee competing with the millions of other employees in the country.

Now - my question is this...

For those of you who have ran your own business. Does that perspective give you a new angle on which to judge things by? Almost like you get to take 'the red pill' and see money itself from a new point of view.

I have never ran a business. But lets take a low-level employee working in a laundromat. He busts his hump each week for a below average pay. He can literally divide any amount of money into how many hours it would take him to earn. And this way of thinking seeps into your outlook on life. Such you look at items for sale as simple swaps for the amount of hours you will work 'for the man' in exchange.

Now - lets imagine he is now running the laundromat - and he realises that for a little extra work (and alot of it not unpleasant) he is now taking home a lot more money.

As such - he may start to feel like he was an idiot before in not working for himself.

Is that how it feels?

That the return on working effort is so much greater when you run a business that it is like you have woken from a sleep. And only now realise how much better most people would be if they worked for themselves?

I ask this - since most people will never work for themselves. And I wonder if it is in the interests of corporations for the 'sheeple' to never realise how much better off they would be if they worked for themselves.

I hope the ramble above makes sense.

But does the above chime with those who started to work for themselves?

It is a powerful idea - since in alot of jobs - you have to be a 'yes man' and pay your dues doing bullshit for ten years before you get a decent wage. And - skipping that bullshit and going into business for yourself is a very tempting and powerful alternative.

And as such - I wonder if more people need to wake up to that idea?

Post: #2

"Now - lets imagine he is now running the laundromat - and he realises that for a little extra work (and alot of it not unpleasant) he is now taking home a lot more money.

As such - he may start to feel like he was an idiot before in not working for himself.

Is that how it feels? "

Yes everyone tells you how hard it is to run a business when in fact it's easy as fuck if you make everyone else do everything for you. Do I do paperwork? Sales tax? Even read my mail from the IRS? Fuck no! I pay a trusted friend who's an accountant to deal with all that 100 a month. Shit she even filed a BP claim for me. I was just thinking about how much I love her today I'm going to give he 33% of my BP cash as a gift. As a mechanic working for other I made about 800 a week but working for myself I can make 10 X that while fucking around all day.

Some people cannot work for themselves they need to rules, be told what to do, and get a steady paycheck. These people are called "betas" or pussies.

Post: #3

I guess what I was getting at is that for the average 'wage slave' - it is impossible to know how economically effiicent the marketplace is until you step a toe into it and see how easy (or difficult) it is to make money.

I am guessing it is easier than alot of people imagine - but wage slave drudgery has conditioned them to think it is hard and that only 'talented' people are capable of surviving the competitveness of the marketplace.

When in fact it may not be that competitive at all. It is impossible to know until you 'suck it and see'.

@el mechanico - thanks for the feedback!

Post: #4

Many small businesses 'fail', but I strongly believe every man should try his hand at being self-employed.

There is nothing like it. Nothing.

Once you cross over and see the power of 'writing your own check', then you not only have more incentive to make it work, but you definitely make more. Also, you realize how badly you get fucked working for others.

Anytime one person can dictate your financial well-being then you're giving them all of your power. Going to work everyday not knowing if it's your last day of employment is no way to live.

Top that off with a heavy dose of not liking authority (me), then being self-employed is the only route.

To answer your question...once I started working for myself, specifically with the Afterhours club, then I started to treat money differently, because I saw what went into making it on a greater scale. It also helped me broaden my mindset on making money from a wage-slave to a boss who could make a couple of moves and make even more money.

Post: #5

Interseting subject, definately does change the way you look at money. My situation in this, I work a fairly low level job for my day job, I make about $14 an hour.

About two years ago I started a business, started off slow making beer money, then grew to maybe 3k a month 5k on a good month. Nice side money but not enough to quit my job for.

Fast forward about a year and a half in consistantly making 15k to 20k for about 6 months. I still havn't quit my day job as majority of our cash gets rolled back into our business or is held by long reserves or holds on our merchant accounts, plus I'd like a year of consistant money and business before quitting my job with a steady paycheck.

Anyhow, when I have my boss in at my office trying to get me amped up off maybe earning a $100 bonus for our office which I have to split with one or two other people, and he's telling me thats like your making an extra 0.50 cents per hour over the course of the month. I almost feel insulted. I hate to say insulted because they dont neceesarily have to give me a bonus and I'm sure there's unemployed people out there who would love to make $14 an hour with a shot at a little bonus so I don't mean to sound unappreciative, however when I think about I can sit on a call with a customer for 5 minutes and pull in $1500 off a deal I do with them it really skews your view of money but more so working for other people.

I posted asking for some advice on another thread, without goign into too much detail I'm at risk of having to stop my business due to regulations and my state and its very stressful and makes me super fucking angry essentially some fucking buerocrat is going to take my dream and my livelihood over some red tape. What I mean by that is in any other state they would love to have me and my business in my state they are gonna try to extort money and threaten me with a felony. Anyhow, that's a total side note but with that situation its got me thinking of my next move because to me it would be equivalent to winning the lottery and losing the ticket if someone took my business away from me and I'm back to making $14 an hour even though I've yet to even really be spoiled by the money I'm making as I can't really currently pay myself much but a few hundred bucks to keep myself motivated and put a little money in my pocket.

Post: #6

I think it must be hard going back to a day job after experiencing life as your own boss. Indeed - I wonder if people are wary of employing such people?

It is like trying to take an escaped pet who has gone feral - back into the house again.

My brother has his own biz. He says if he ever went back to working for somebody he would focus on the positives. And be a total slacker and get away with the minimum amount of work.

It is one thing busting your ass for you own business. But it is hard to motivate yourself to the same level when working for somebody else.

Post: #7

(03-04-2014 02:43 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I think it must be hard going back to a day job after experiencing life as your own boss. Indeed - I wonder if people are wary of employing such people?

It is like trying to take an escaped pet who has gone feral - back into the house again.

My brother has his own biz. He says if he ever went back to working for somebody he would focus on the positives. And be a total slacker and get away with the minimum amount of work.

It is one thing busting your ass for you own business. But it is hard to motivate yourself to the same level when working for somebody else.

You bring up a very interesting point. I could see owning your business as being a huge asset or a huge negative as far as seeking employment with someone else. On one hand the employer is going to be like okay we got a bright guy here, was able to start his own successful business, etc. On the other hand I can see them being like he's used to working by himself, probably not good at taking direction, mybe thinks his way is the best way. In roles where they want to hire a thinker and a doer I think it would be good, ideal environment a startup where people find value in people who think outside the box, take initiative, work in a variety of roles. For most jobs however where everyone has one task they do and thats their only responsibility I can see it being a negative.

As far as my situation it's kind of unique. I was working my day job before I started my businesss and I'm still working my day job so still eating shit from my manager who I'm smarter than and more successful than but I do it. I havn't really truely had a chance to really soak up my moderate success as nothing in my life really changed except I'm a shitload busier and overworked. I still work my day job and then come home and put in about another 4-6 hours in with my business. My business is somewhat in the same arena as my day job so I can't really let on about what I do at work or they would probably fire me due to a non-compete even though techinically I'm not really competing with them, just running a business in the same industry.

I should have some more clarity on my legal woes and also merchant processing holds as I have a court date and also a review of my accounts comming up soon so if things go my way I'll probably start looking more seriously at quitting my job and will also actually be able to pay myself a living wage out of my business vs just maybe taking out 10% to split with my partner out of our net profits.

Post: #8

I've had my own business for 12 years. It definitely teaches you the VALUE of money. You learn that money isn't easy to acquire, so you tend to spend it more wisely.

You can get a similar experience working for a small company. My current employer has 10 employees. In my last place there were 3000+ staff, and I got away with doing practically nothing for 5 years. I couldn't get away with this in my current job. If I sit on my ass now, the whole company suffers.

The best thing about having a job AND a small business is that your own business profits are 100% disposable income, which you can invest for your future.

Post: #9

I'm self employed but as a sole trader charging an hourly rate. So I still view the price of items in terms of how much time I have to work to pay for them.

The difference is things feel easier when you know an hour of your time is worth £20 rather than £7, and that you can raise your own prices by as much as you want, providing it doesn't put people off.

This means when I invest I view the return as hours I've saved myself.

Post: #10

(03-04-2014 03:31 PM)dulst Wrote:  I'm self employed but as a sole trader charging an hourly rate. So I still view the price of items in terms of how much time I have to work to pay for them.

The difference is things feel easier when you know an hour of your time is worth £20 rather than £7, and that you can raise your own prices by as much as you want, providing it doesn't put people off.

This means when I invest I view the return as hours I've saved myself.

When I was your age, I was working fifteen hours a day and thinking I was the man for making £200.

Now I employ two guys, and make the same with half the effort, and can make extra if I care to go out with them. Don't raise your prices- employ someone to do the extra work. Far better to have plenty of customers- your business will grow much quicker through recommendations and all you need to do is hire another guy when you get busy enough.

It's not about what the job is worth per hour- it's what it's worth to the customer. If you invest in something, as you say, to save you time, then you need to profit from this by giving a quote for the whole job and knocking it out in half the time it normally takes.

Please don't wait until you're my age (25) to realise this. I'm still kicking myself.

What's your trade BTW?

Post: #11

(03-04-2014 03:45 PM)roberto Wrote:  When I was your age, I was working fifteen hours a day and thinking I was the man for making £200.

Now I employ two guys, and make the same with half the effort, and can make extra if I care to go out with them. Don't raise your prices- employ someone to do the extra work. Far better to have plenty of customers- your business will grow much quicker through recommendations and all you need to do is hire another guy when you get busy enough.

It's not about what the job is worth per hour- it's what it's worth to the customer. If you invest in something, as you say, to save you time, then you need to profit from this by giving a quote for the whole job and knocking it out in half the time it normally takes.

Please don't wait until you're my age (25) to realise this. I'm still kicking myself.

What's your trade BTW?

Probably should have clarified, I'm not in the position to employ people because I'm an academic tutor. So I get work through agencies and through my own promotion privately tutoring pupils for A-Level and GCSE Maths and Physics.

Not exactly a "trade" in the strict sense, but a good use of my time and degree.

Post: #12

(03-04-2014 03:45 PM)roberto Wrote:  Please don't wait until you're my age (25) to realise this. I'm still kicking myself.

Don't kick yourself too hard. It took me until I was 35 to figure it out.

To answer the original question, since starting my own business (a type of contracting), I've discovered that the price of money is no longer a certain number of hours per day.

The price of money is whatever I can get away with paying.

Post: #13

Not sure if opening a business makes a difference in how you value money as many people are just frivolous spenders and others are penny pinchers. I have a theory that is one reason business fail, some people are not conditioned to spend money wisely or budget properly or plan accordingly.

What starting your own business does definitely teach you is that making whatever amount of money is better than being a BITCH to someone in Corporate America. I would rather make 50k running my own business than 250k working for some bastard again. This is especially true if you are in a profession where you running your own business allows you to set your own hours. That is fucking epic.

Post: #14

Cardguy there is a reason all the high paying professions are the same. You try to avoid trading your time for money. If you are trading time for cash IE: hourly wage. You will be broke for your entire life.

Look at the high paying professions.
1. Sales = Why? You are based solely on your kills
2. Real Estate = Why? You are based solely on your sales and the value of the house, you have some leverage
3. Stocks/Bonds = why? You are based solely on your sales of stocks/the exchange of money which can be done more than 1x per hour...

Now when you run a business you multiply this by a billion.

If you have 1 employee. Are you going to pay him more than he makes you? No.

If you hire a guy and pay him $100 an hour... God knows that guy is earning his boss at least $200 an hour....
Now the guy below the $100 an hour person.. well he makes $50 an hour... Well you think he is **worth** $50 an hour? Hell no both the guy who makes $100 an hour and his boss need to be paid.......

You get it now.

You have to start a business at some point. You can certainly work as a "wage slave" or a "sales guy" while you're trying to get traction with your side hustle but you do need to build a business some way. In an ideal situation you bring multiple guys on who in turn end up running a biz unit of their own... etc.

Anywho yes. If you have no interest in ever running a biz, don't cry to the world that you're not rich because ...

Ain't no person got rich off some 401K.

Post: #15

The one big leap you're making is that the guy working in the laundromat has the skills, capital, and appetite for risk to run a successful laundromat.

He may not have all the skills needed to run a business (or the skills to make the right decisions).. or maybe he does not want to take the risk of not having a guaranteed paycheck every week like he does with his current job.

In my business, I know the first year or two was rough and I was just scraping by largely on savings. If it was so easy to just start a business and make money from day one, then everyone would be doing it.

Post: #16

See this is why you never work for minimum wage. I will use the laundry guy as an example.

Lets say I was broke as a joke. Full on fucked and am currently working at a laundry mat.

If forced to stay in the business I would start a "task rabbit" for laundry services. If I am stuck sitting at a laundry mat... No thanks, I am going to quit that job and immediately charge to do laundry for other people.

I would start an ad biz on craigslist or whatever it took. I would do my runs on my lunch break... Once I did a good job, I would have a few "repeat clients" a service like this can charge just as much as a regular laundry mat... You charge by the pound and run around on a cheap $20 bike delivering laundry loads.

Now I have a client base.

When it hits about $50-75 a day I start expanding. I hire a few dudes to do this shit for me and pay them to simply pick up the laundry by an **hourly wage** I target the paper boys.

After this I am hopefully making $100 a day...

Pun intended. "Wash rinse repeat".

Post: #17

(03-05-2014 12:13 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  See this is why you never work for minimum wage. I will use the laundry guy as an example.

Lets say I was broke as a joke. Full on fucked and am currently working at a laundry mat.

If forced to stay in the business I would start a "task rabbit" for laundry services. If I am stuck sitting at a laundry mat... No thanks, I am going to quit that job and immediately charge to do laundry for other people.

I would start an ad biz on craigslist or whatever it took. I would do my runs on my lunch break... Once I did a good job, I would have a few "repeat clients" a service like this can charge just as much as a regular laundry mat... You charge by the pound and run around on a cheap $20 bike delivering laundry loads.

Now I have a client base.

When it hits about $50-75 a day I start expanding. I hire a few dudes to do this shit for me and pay them to simply pick up the laundry by an **hourly wage** I target the paper boys.

After this I am hopefully making $100 a day...

Pun intended. "Wash rinse repeat".

Here we have a shining example of a Producer Mindset, instead of a Consumer Mindset.

And that is why WestCoast is a force to be reckoned with.

If you don't have a Producer Mindset, then get busy forming one.

Post: #18

On the inverse, does working in Finance teach you the non-value (or cheapness) of money?

Post: #19

(03-05-2014 12:46 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  Here we have a shining example of a Producer Mindset, instead of a Consumer Mindset.
...
If you don't have a Producer Mindset, then get busy forming one.

There are plenty of dumb people who are meant for menial jobs, but once robots take over those jobs I'm sure there will be some fascist state bringing about some mass-extermination. Or at least, I hope.

Post: #20

creating a business didn't teach me the price of money so much as it taught me what i really wanted in life.

i think the bottom line is it really depends on the individual. there is no one-size-fits-all here.

back in 2011, all i wanted was money. i started and grew my primarily b2c biz into a 6-figure business which i was very proud of. Then I went to work for a former client's corporation in 2012. i know that the general consensus on RVF is that if you're not working for yourself you're a wage slave aka scum, but there are things i've learned/people i've met here that i probably would never have otherwise.

so the reason why it taught me more about myself: i learned that i apparently respond very well to project-oriented, commissions-based work. i've worked a plain salary job before and felt no motivation to work hard. i ran a 6-figure biz where the money wasn't enough to offset the loss of my health and social life. i don't know why but working for bonuses/commission just gets all my creative juices flowing and puts me into primal beast mode in the workplace. i love the fact that if i do a good job, i'll be getting a bonus. if you've ever received a bonus before on top of your regular salary, you'd know how awesome it is. but this is just me. maybe you don't respond to the same incentives.

running my own business was stressful and left me with little time to pursue my other interests, which is what makes life fun and interesting for me. it had me scrambling/hustling to find clients all the time. i was out of shape, unhappy, and i was burned out.

i signed up for an MMA/Muay Thai gym at the beginning of 2014 and now have plenty of time to train my ass off, get in shape, and go meet girls at bars/clubs after work because my company will do the heavy lifting of finding all my clients for me. doesn't mean i'll stay here forever. when the right pieces fall into place, i'll be in a great position to work for myself again...but without having to sacrifice what's important to me.

mark cuban says that between going to school and working a job, he'd prefer to work because work is where you get paid to learn. i've always liked this reasoning. in my eyes, the only way you can ever be a "wage slave" is if you're just doing it for the money and you gain nothing else (connections, marketable experience, knowledge, etc) in the process.

with all that being said, i would recommend every single guy try to start a business at least once in their lives.

Post: #21

Damn cardguy - I was literally planning on starting my first thread tonight and wanted to call it "Business | The Other Red Pill". It looks like you beat me to it. I thought it might be helpful to have a separate thread from Gringuito as although I agree with him 100% on everything, I think his angle is definitely biased towards tech. Oh well.

Before I ever heard of game and stumbled across this community of the "manosphere" I had already previously described starting a business as "red pill". It is exactly that. It is like all of society has determined that a W-2 is safe. If there is one key nugget, it is that all businesses have ups and downs in their cash reserves. If you run a business you will no doubt at some point be in a position where you look at cash reserves and think "if I don't do something to change...I'm out of cash in X time." This is just a fact. This is no different than if you work for a large company, some guy is staring at a P&L and cash flow and is figuring out what each unit of labor must do over the next X months to justify their existence. At least if you run the business you get the maximum lead time possible to make an adjustment (as opposed to the "safe" W-2 guy).

Back to the question, does creating a business teach you the value of money. My $.02 (with some experiences sprinkled in):
- In general yes. But, I think this is cyclical.
- Prior to starting a business I was on a high paying career path. After starting a business I still had employers throwing very attractive offers to try and get me to just go work for them. In the first two years it was really tough because although business was going as well as it could for an early stage business, the numbers that employers were trying to entice me with made me question my resolve (mostly because I had pregnant wife and then a new baby during this period). At this stage I valued EVERY dollar.
- The first two years is also tough because you will find yourself literally staring at a wall once in a while wondering if you are really making the right trade and whether or not you should just go get that W-2 and all that comes with it.
- After three years something different happens (I've talked to others that confirmed this, so not just me). The key difference is that the market starts to view you as a "market participant" rather than trying to look behind the curtain to see if they actually need to pay market or if they trust that you will be around. My key point here is that whether it is giving you a huge volume order like any other "market" player, or that you get to charge full "market" rates...you are no longer viewed as a startup and the revenue line can pop significantly. In a way that no W-2 income of any kind or any profession ever could. In my opinion, this is where you get the "red pill" and realize the whole "game" that the employment market is. Especially because at this stage you are employing people at "market" or "market+". Key point: you get to see how these people working for you behave and think how "safe" their W-2 is...but you started this business right? It can't be that safe yet, can it?

And then...
- We kept making money. 48 months in a row of profitability. Although we still valued the dollar and appreciated our freedom, it was clearly less so than in those first 3 years.
- Then we made a splash and hit front page of the NY Times, article in the Economist, various other outlets. We also had something much bigger than even that splash in the pipeline. So, we did what anyone would do: get the Tony office with a fancy address, expensive people, playboy model looking receptionist, fancy everything, full bar in the office, even the coasters were premium...like Mad Men. Hell, all of a sudden my partner is meeting bitches to fuck during lunch and I'm headed out at 5pm to meet mine. I think he had a revolving door of "arrangements" and I was hitting international travel on the slightest whim of a business opportunity.

And so, it took lighting a LOT of cash on fire to get back to valuing the dollar the way we used to. The business is still going as strong as ever, but we had to shed our fancy overhead and start actually working again like we want it and watching profitability. I now think it was a blessing to burn that much cash when we did. If we didn't have a hiccup in revenue we would probably have kept that burn rate and ultimately burned through 10x the amount of cash that we did (and, without the overhead we actually might've stopped and said "are we doing what we want to be doing, because we don't have to do anything).

In summary:
- Yes, going in business for yourself is indeed the other red pill
- Yes, it will teach you the price of money for a while
- Yes, you will likely abuse money at some point
- Hopefully, you will get back to a place for the long haul where you get back to equating money with time and freedom (jury still out on me...but, I think this is where I'm at).

Post: #22

Man, I thought this was going to be about starting a counterfeit ring.

Cardguy, I would say you would be more aware of cashflow. Most people live paycheck to paycheck and in that regards will plan things out maybe a month or so in advance.

As a business owner, you have to look more long term because not only could you have dips in sales within the year, you also have to juggle that with long term plans like new products, expanding into new markets and so on.

Not everyone who owns a business is good at it. For example, I have a good friend who has had a couple of successful businesses. I would say he reached the mill a year mark in yearly sales for both companies. Not huge but rather good for being in a small market. He also lost both because he pretty much sucked out all the cash when it became available and left none to weather the storms of lower sales. He thought it would never stop dropping cash into his pockets until it... well, stopped dropping cash into his pockets.

He liked some of the stuff I was doing and he had some skills that I liked so we decided to try working together. I thought I could reason with him when he got greedy.

Big mistake. In fact, that cost me about 100k and left me to start over. You see, he got greedy again and thought he could run with my plan and do it himself. He later told me he tried and it was a lot more difficult than he ever imagined. hah He just couldn't see the big picture I had laid out and went for the quick cash.

We are still friends, I just know where that friendship stops.

To answer your question, no, it doesn't help teach some people.

Post: #23

Once I dived into freelancing and affiliate marketing, I slowly but eventually lost the fear of investing money. The fear of losing money holds back many a talented people. This was not the case when i was in a corporate gig.

You have to get to that stage where the satisfaction of following your gut feeling overrides the fear of losing money. And that feeling comes to you when you experience that it's all possible. When you actually see yourself working only for you and witness the returns. You experience that freedom and happiness that comes from being your own boss. Small successes boost your self confidence.

Whenever I see any of my friends who've passed out from premium MBA institutions working in huge firms on very lucrative packages, I only feel pity for them. This was never the case before when i was always envious. But once I started doing my own thing, my neurons have aligned permanently in a way that is in line with who I am.

When you do your own thing, you not only make more money, you get closer to your real self.

Post: #24

Just to be clear - I am not talking about learning the 'value' of money but talking about the 'price' of money. To me they are two different things.

I haven't put it very clearly - not that it matters since the responses above are excellent.

But - my thinking is that just as learning 'game' makes you realise that pulling tail is easier than you imagined back in your 'blue pill' days. The same could be true for starting a business. Suddenly - you don't look at money as being a swap for time you have traded away. Or as a reward for experience in the same job or piling on the qualifications. You don't look at it is a small reward for pleasing the man and playing by the rules.

Instead - you realise that there is a shortcut which allows you to get access to rewards which for most people would not be available any other way.

My qualifications are pretty shitty. So I would fall into that category. I - like many others - will be stuck in average to middling jobs since my CV is nothing special. And it is easy to feel your station in life is fixed. But - starting a business (like learning 'game') is a way of freeing yourself from that mindset and enables you to capture more of the value you think you can create.

To me that is a very 'red pill' way of thinking about shit. And a realisation that money (like pussy) isn't just something you have to beg for and hope falls into your lap. But instead is something you can plan to find and capture using your own hard work and skills.

It is interesting how alot of us are 'red pill' in life but still adopt 'blue pill' mindsets when it comes to earning a living.

Cardguy

PS I use 'game' as an easy to understand analogy since I think the whole issue of 'game' is quite a complex one - since it is a word that seems to mean different things to different people.

PPS Communists talk about being exploited by the capitalist system and having the surplus value they create stolen from them by the owners of capital. I know a bit about this since I have being reading up on Marx for the past year and a half. Anyway - I may do a post on this sometime - but the logic of the Marxist critique of capitalism is similar to that of a free-market capitalist. In the sense of saying - fuck you - why should I hand over the money I can create to you when I can keep it for myself?

It seems to me that whilst alot of communists moan about the system - they don't have the balls to live by their principles and try and keep the surplus value for themselves (in the form of starting their own business) instead of just monaing and just meekly handing over the (supposed) surplus value they are busy creating.

Post: #25

^ you still suffer from a defeated mindset I want you to read this quote and think about it and you'll see where I'm going.

"Why do I need a PHD in mathematics when I can simply hire one if I need to"

Similarly

"How uneducated am I if I have people that are smarter than I am working for me? Who is smarter now? Me or them?"

The richest men in the world rarely have PHD/MBA/whatever, they have an ability to draw out the maximum value from a person.

* Cardguy you're one of those guys currently selling himself short. I can think of a few other members on here doing the same.

Want to make some decent money? $$ = good information