Post: #1

Long story short, I am owed a few thousand dollars by a guy.

I have some big Indian (First Nations) cousins who do debt collection as a side job. They use violence. They are also bored, and would like to come along just for a ride and to rough someone up.

I also know how fast shit can get out of hand. As much as I would love to make him eat his own teeth, I would rather deal with this man to man.

He has given me around 10 deadlines, with no payment. Stood me up with no phone calls three times.

He will not answer his phone. When I call from another line, he hangs up when he hears my voice.

I have access to his business, and could easily walk in there and take enough product to even the score. But again, I do not want to be in a situation where its my word vs his.

Looking for some thoughts on how to deal with this type of situation without resorting to violence.

Legal advise is welcome as well.

Post: #2

Do you have any proof you lent him money? Even a verbal contract has some weight in court if it has been witnessed. You could then sue him, he would probably not even show up and you would win by default.

Also, you could hurt his business by telling his business partners. You could threaten to do so first.

I'd go with the indian route though. Debt collectors usually don't hit people right away, they try to scare them first. If your guy is a pussy then that would work.

Post: #3

When threatening to tell someone else who he wouldn't want to know, say it like..."I wouldn't want to tell so and so blah and blah". This way you are getting the message accross without threatimg to do it.

If you can bring the Indian Cousins with you when you visit him and just have them be silent and menacing looking, that will often do the trick. That is if you can ensure they will just be quiet and stand there.

Post: #4

He is not going to pay without further coercion, that much is clear. I guess I'll comment on the legal aspect. If you're owed a few thousand dollars, that's probably small claims court territory. Should be relatively cheap and easy to file. Sometimes legal papers will scare people. If he doesn't show up, you get default judgment. Of course then it's a matter of collecting, but you can probably attach property of equal value, especially since he has a business. Of course it would help if you had some kind of documentation.

I would advise against taking anything from a business...they'll just call the cops, have you charged with theft. You don't want to be explaining anything to the police....they'll arrest/charge first and worry about what you're owed later.

Quote:I also know how fast shit can get out of hand. As much as I would love to make him eat his own teeth, I would rather deal with this man to man.

I'm not sure what you mean by dealing with this "man to man," but keep your eyes on the prize: the money you're owed. This isn't some honor contest, and you don't need to prove anything to anyone. Money is all you're after.

Post: #5

Try to get someone to approach him not as an enforcer but an arbitrator (since he won't even talk to you). They can present the option of a payment plan or giving you something of value, like whatever this product is he's selling, to settle the debt. If he's got any expensive toys, like motorcycle or wave runner that could be a possibility. You might even make a deal that you give it back when he pays what he owes.

You could also try to present these options in an email or a letter (whatever you do, don't drop any threats if you communicate with either of these options).

If he tells your mediator to get fucked and/or still refuses to speak with you, you'll have to turn up the volume in one form or another if you want to see your money.

That said, it may also be worth just letting it go and chalking it up to a lesson learned. Yes, losing thousands of dollars sucks. It has happened to me before and for A LOT more than a few grand. But life is short and shit happens.

In fact, I've had people who owed me money for years eventually come around, get their shit together, and pay me. Would that have happened if I completely burned the bridge? Probably not.

I used to get violent about money. To me, it just isn't worth it anymore. Physically hurting someone, whether you deliver the punishment yourself or not, isn't an enjoyable feeling, even if it's deserved. Not to mention that jail is about the last place I ever want to spend a good deal of time.

And life is just too short to live by those rules, in my humble opinion. It's not the mark I want to leave on the world.

The guys is a piece of shit. That's his problem - not yours.

The money seems like a lot, but be realistic. How much would it change your life to have it? How long would it be in your hands before it was gone? Is it really such a valuable thing? And if not, then why let money put you in a position where you contemplate decisions you don't feel comfortable with?

Beyond that, what's making you angry is the pride involved. In being disrespected. Don't let that get to you. This man is disrespecting himself worse than he's disrespecting you.

I'll end the preaching by saying that every time you make a decision that moves the lines you'll cross a little bit further, the more those new standards of what is right and wrong become a part of your reality.

Just something you might want to consider.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #6

(02-19-2014 05:14 PM)Laner Wrote:  Long story short, I am owed a few thousand dollars by a guy.

I have some big Indian (First Nations) cousins who do debt collection as a side job. They use violence. They are also bored, and would like to come along just for a ride and to rough someone up.

I also know how fast shit can get out of hand. As much as I would love to make him eat his own teeth, I would rather deal with this man to man.

He has given me around 10 deadlines, with no payment. Stood me up with no phone calls three times.

He will not answer his phone. When I call from another line, he hangs up when he hears my voice.

I have access to his business, and could easily walk in there and take enough product to even the score. But again, I do not want to be in a situation where its my word vs his.

Looking for some thoughts on how to deal with this type of situation without resorting to violence.

Legal advise is welcome as well.

If you've got something in writing, you can do the small claims court route (hoping that he doesn't show) since it's cheap to file and you CAN'T be represented by a lawyer in most cases. Remember that it's ENTIRELY up to the judge in these situations and they are much more likely to err on the side of what they think is fair versus what is actually fair. You have to convince the judge basically that you're 100% right otherwise you're unlikely to get a 100% judgement unless the other guy doesn't show.

With regards to your friends. THEY have a lot more experience collecting debt than you do, what do they say is the best route to take? Ask them if they'll just talk to the guy and see if that will intimidate him enough to cough up dough on a regular basis.

I've taken people to small claims court and even when I was clearly in the right only got a judgement for less than 25% of the amount I was truly owed. I've also had default judgements when people don't show.

Post: #7

The next time you lend money on an unsecured basis get the borrower to sign a promissory note (you can download a template online). This will establish the fact that you are owed money by a certain date and that the borrower agreed to pay. This way you have written proof to take to court. It is better than he said she said scenarios.

Post: #8

Thanks for the feedback.

I want to believe that he has the intention to pay, but just does not have the balls to answer his phone and say "listen, I dont have the money as business is tight, but let me get a little something to you anyways."

I could deal with that. I know there is money coming in, as we were working hard on a project that is still moving forward (as far as I know).

Quote:I'm not sure what you mean by dealing with this "man to man," but keep your eyes on the prize: the money you're owed. This isn't some honor contest, and you don't need to prove anything to anyone. Money is all you're after.

Yeah, by that I mean I would rather him call me back and we can discuss a solution.

Quote:With regards to your friends. THEY have a lot more experience collecting debt than you do, what do they say is the best route to take? Ask them if they'll just talk to the guy and see if that will intimidate him enough to cough up dough on a regular basis.

They just want to bust some heads. Of course, they work in the drug trade where that type of language is all that is respected. I would rather see things resolved in an honorable fashion. We work in a small industry where everyone knows each other. Its just getting to the point where something needs to be done.

Sounds like small claims court might be the best option. I have a lot of emails, invoices (that have been replied to) that back up my claim. This seems like the sensible way to go.

I have seen what men are capable of when threatened and backed into a corner. Its savage. My family can say they will just intimidate all they want, but if buddy comes at them with a weapon someone may get killed. Indians up here are not far removed from their warrior past.

Post: #9

honestly if you lent him money with no proof you will have to resort to violence, threats or stalking... remember to do everything in person.... No phone calls, no texts, no emails... If his business has cameras try not to show up every week so the police can see you might be stalking him... and if you kick the shit out of him, make sure you don't do it in public... Just like it's his word vs yours with the money, it is the same if you beat the fuck out of him... make sure you don't have your cell on you when you go to confront him and dont be driving a vehicle that has gps in it

I am the opposite of beyond borders... If someone tried to rip me off it wouldnt be about the money for me, I would be pissed that someone thinks he can fuck me and it would eat away at me.... i still do plenty of mortgage lending and have my money secured by assets and even when i know i will get my money back in court I still bang on the persons door and threaten to beat the shit out of them if they dont pay up

Post: #10

If you have invoices and written proof, just take it to small claims court. He'll see you mean business, and you could get a lien against his property if the judge rules in your favor.

Post: #11

Confront him in person, get whatever he can afford to cough up and then give an ultimatum on what is going to happen if the rest isn't paid up.. Definitely try to get something out of him before you chalk it up as a loss. If you can catch him alone and not in public you should definitely be able to get something. The threat of violence alone will often suffice.

Post: #12

(02-19-2014 10:59 PM)Laner Wrote:  We work in a small industry where everyone knows each other.

In that case, small claims court is your only reasonable course of action (failing mediation).

Do not put your entire income in jeopardy over $3000.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #13

I've used the "good cop", "bad cop" method over the phone and it produced results. Had a customer owing my own company big $$$ and couldn't get them to pay up. I would call one day and scream at the person on the other end of the line. The next day my business partner would call and act all rational and calm, telling them we just wanted the money owed to us. After about a week of doing this, they sent the check and it cleared.

Post: #14

^An authoritative phone call or letter from an attorney can also be pretty persuasive and that kind of time certainly doesn't cost what actually taking legal action would.

This is a good thread here, honestly. Take a situation where it seems like options are extremely limited, and hey, what do you know? There are actually quite a few different courses of action a man could take.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #15

@Laner- It seems like the 3k dollars is small potatoes to you.

I'd let it go, and consider a lesson to NEVER LEND MONEY especially w/out written contract. Spread the word that this person gypped you. He is being short-sighted, because he is basically saying his reputation is worth less than 3k dollars. This will cause him more harm than violence will ever do, esp if its a small industry.

Chalk it up as a hard lesson.

Violence has a nasty way of spawning retribution. Never hurt somebody half-way. Either crush them so they are terrified of you or don't do it.

Post: #16

^^^
Machiavellian.. I like it.

Post: #17

Just go over there with your cousin and take his stuff or tell him if he's going to drag ass you need a car title or something. Switch the title in your name and go take the car.

Post: #18

See taking some Indian enforcers is like taking a couple of ElMech's. Cutlasses and BMW's would end up in the pond and I would end up with a useless title to a rusted RV.

My first instinct was to get some rugby playing Indians on his ass. Then I thought I would rather feed him his teeth myself. Then I thought this is Canada and the RCMP would not take kindly to writing a report in a hospital from a man who is waiting to poop out his teeth so he can put them back in.

Losing the money is not what I am upset about. I am over that, the money should be in my pocket but its not and it does not effect my life.

I just do not like knowing that someone out there shook my hand, made a deal, looked into my eyes, drank whiskey with me, etc and thinks that they can get away with this.

Post: #19

^Fuck chalking it up to a learning experience...you've already learned.

You should still try to recoup the money. So what if the guy doesn't like you anymore, you obviously shouldn't do any business with him anymore.

I would stalk him down, approach him and ask in a firm manner (but not violent) what's the deal with the your money. He will give you some BS answer, so tell him "Listen, you have till a week from today to pay me back." Leave it at exactly that.

If he doesn't pay you back then, send the Indians after him and also start badmouthing him around this business community. Crush him physically, and then crush his reputation around the community.

There's no reason for you to take shit from this guy in this situation.

Post: #20

(02-20-2014 10:02 PM)MHaes Wrote:  ^Fuck chalking it up to a learning experience...you've already learned.

You should still try to recoup the money. So what if the guy doesn't like you anymore, you obviously shouldn't do any business with him anymore.

I would stalk him down, approach him and ask in a firm manner (but not violent) what's the deal with the your money. He will give you some BS answer, so tell him "Listen, you have till a week from today to pay me back." Leave it at exactly that.

If he doesn't pay you back then, send the Indians after him and also start badmouthing him around this business community. Crush him physically, and then crush his reputation around the community.

There's no reason for you to take shit from this guy in this situation.

I like the above, just call and leave him with a statement of when you expect to be paid back by. "Hi Mr. X, This is Laner, I've been trying to get a hold of you about that money you owe me but you haven't called me back. I'll be coming by your office at 11am on tuesday to collect it, see you then"

then go there and just wait. My dad did that with an accountant who wouldn't finish his file on time. He showed up at 8am with a newspaper and a book and said 'i'm retired, I've got nothing else to do and I'm going to sit here until you are done' He was out of there by 11am after 4 months of delays.

Post: #21

As a corrollary, never pay up-front for services- like painting, construction, car-repair. Money in their hands means no leverage. Pay in portions according to work done.

If you want to pay upfront use AMEX, as you can easily do a chargeback. This is a good scenario for bigger companies or merchants w/storefronts.

This is no guarantee either, but it minimizes the risk.

I had a similar situation to Laner, except that the sales rep sold us an incompatible product and the company refused to accept return for something on their end. Rep also refused to return our phonecalls or emails....

/thread-22744-...#pid447573

Post: #22

(02-21-2014 01:23 AM)DVY Wrote:  As a corrollary, never pay up-front for services- like painting, construction, car-repair. Money in their hands means no leverage. Pay in portions according to work done.

If you want to pay upfront use AMEX, as you can easily do a chargeback. This is a good scenario for bigger companies or merchants w/storefronts.

This is no guarantee either, but it minimizes the risk.

I had a similar situation to Laner, except that the sales rep sold us an incompatible product and the company refused to accept return for something on their end. Rep also refused to return our phonecalls or emails....

/thread-22744-...#pid447573

Interesting. Most of this money is for expense account charges. Instead of using a company card, I used my own and submitted invoices (we were in different areas and logistically this was easier).

Is there a term for chargebacks? Some of them go back over a month.

Post: #23

"sell" the debt to the Indians for 20% value. You get a slight return and remain unchargeable.

Post: #24

Small claims court is pretty effective. Once the debtor gets the summons, things get moving. Some people shit their pants on the thought of court. A judgment can also be reported to credit reporting agencies.

How to file a small claim in Canada

You can also try prejudgment attachment, where you freeze his bank accounts, maybe before he knows about it.

Canada prejudgment attachment

Post: #25

Someone owed me 5k once. They avoided me and weren't paying. Found out he was at his girls house. Knocked on the door, she opened it and there he was in the kitchen. I asked to speak to him outside and then took him by the throat and slammed him into the wall. Told him to empty his pockets. He only had 100 on him so I took that and told him he still owed me $4900. He skipped town to Florida and never came back. Never paid me what he owed either.

This seems like legal life shit. Mine wasn't. If I were you I would wait outside his business everyday you can. Find his home address and wait outside there as well. Keep bothering him in a non violent polite way. If not take him to small claims court. He thinks eventually this will just go away. Don't let that happen.