Post: #476

Well I finally got around to seeing the Bradley Rios fight.

I guess this is called an overhand right, but it does look to this rookie eye like a form of a hook, except for the downward angle. I mean it seems like a long hook to me.

http://sendvid.com/7z86xm0h

Then as discussed the power of body shots, Bradley ends it with a series of body shots.

http://sendvid.com/gt4kh0mo

Post: #477

(11-13-2015 05:31 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(11-13-2015 02:51 AM)cascadecombo Wrote:  Since you're already talking about hooks, when I train when a do a semi hard hook into the pads my elbow/forearm experiences some pain. While the coaches are profighters themselves they've checked my form and didn't see anything glaringly obvious and any further detailed assistance is a bit above my language level. Any ideas as to why that sort of pain would occur?

It's just simply strain on the elbow when throwing a long hook (a technique that my newest Thai friends refuse to accept exists haha).

If you think about it the elbow joint is experiencing both the rotational force of your shoulder/body and also the resistance from the pad.

Do you have any suggestions for how to overcome that?

Would simply hitting the pads at a greatly reduced strength for a while help out?

Or, like with my shoulder, some kind of rubber band work. I currently use the bands to strength those tiny muscles in the shoulder. For me it doubles as auxiliary work for striking and bouldering.

Post: #478

(11-13-2015 08:36 PM)cascadecombo Wrote:  

(11-13-2015 05:31 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(11-13-2015 02:51 AM)cascadecombo Wrote:  Since you're already talking about hooks, when I train when a do a semi hard hook into the pads my elbow/forearm experiences some pain. While the coaches are profighters themselves they've checked my form and didn't see anything glaringly obvious and any further detailed assistance is a bit above my language level. Any ideas as to why that sort of pain would occur?

It's just simply strain on the elbow when throwing a long hook (a technique that my newest Thai friends refuse to accept exists haha).

If you think about it the elbow joint is experiencing both the rotational force of your shoulder/body and also the resistance from the pad.

Do you have any suggestions for how to overcome that?

Would simply hitting the pads at a greatly reduced strength for a while help out?

Or, like with my shoulder, some kind of rubber band work. I currently use the bands to strength those tiny muscles in the shoulder. For me it doubles as auxiliary work for striking and bouldering.

The hands and arms aren't really designed to strike repeatedly and with the power we develop from boxing. If there is a solution, I am not aware of it. It is most certainly not a muscular issue so bands etc won't make a difference.

There really is no need to hit everything 100% all the time. Doing so will cause other problems like damaged knuckles.

Just make sure that when it happens you ice it up and take some ibuprofen to reduce any inflammation.

Post: #479

cascadecombo,

May I ask you a question about your hook? CBW mentioned a long hook, ar you throwing a long one or a regular one? Do you try to throw your entire arm into the hook? What I mean is this and keep in mind I have been at this for about 15 months or so. I could be totally off.

But my trainer is trying to get me to stop trying to tensing the my arm and thrown it into the shot. In certain instances he wants me too for extra power. But most of the work is supposed to come from me rotating my hips.

I can't think of a great analogy but this one and I don't know if this is even right. But if you are jousting, I am guessing the power is coming from your horse and where you place the lance. But if you then tried to lunge the lance forward at the last moment to give it a little more, you would be adding extra pressure to arm. I hope that makes sense.

I have tried throwing hooks by always tossing in the arm to hit it harder but really I should be aiming better and getting the power from my hips. If anything, my aim is affected by my desire to drive my arm into it.

I hope this made sense, it is sort of hard to articulate. Bottom line, the arm shouldn't be doing a lot in throwing a hook other than being firm, the power comes from the twisting.

Post: #480

Hey sam^3

I had to double check because I wasn't aware of the difference between a long range hook and a regular.

I was talking about a regular hook with the elbow bent at 90 degrees. I lean more towards in fighting due to a background in grappling.

For the arm, I think you may have a point with me tensing it far too much. I had been avoiding practicing hooks because I do not see any benefit to training when it causes me pain but I'm going to bother the coaches and spend a some time focusing on that.

After checking, I almost feel as if I am cocking my arm before rotating my hips. Moving my shoulder forward first before applying power with my arms and hips. I appreciate the thought and will update after I make it back to the gym and spend some time figuring out what's wrong.

Post: #481

I would hope H1N1, CBW, or Kieran or the other more experienced guys chime in on the super technical stuff on the hook.

But here are my rambling thoughts.

Nothing wrong with adding some extra power on a few key shots, but you can do plenty of damage without trying to squeeze every last bit of it. Also, constant tensing may not be considered energy efficient.

If you are cocking it, does that mean your glove is pulled off your cheek, like you are pulling it back? Does it create an open space between the glove and your face? Glove is behind the ear? The way I have been taught I am not allowed to throw a hook unless it is coming off my cheek. Keep in mind this is the only form of self defense I have learned - I say this in case you are a 20 year pro, you can be more loose with certain things than me.

Supposedly, the hook is the shortest punch. So the other issue may be you are releasing the glove off your face too soon?

Once again I defer to the studs on this thread. But those are just some thoughts that come to mind.

Hope your situation gets better. ButI think anyone who does this shit always has some sort of ache/pain. I have some sort of sore ligament or something in my right shoulder or something. Doctor says it is because of boxing, I just look at her funny because I don't wanna stop boxing

Post: #482

To chime in a bit on the hook-

CBW has already made a couple of excellent points on it above, which I want to reaffirm:

The first is that a degree of strain in the areas you guys are mentioning is inevitable. Unlike a straight punch, where everything is aligned and the elbow is locked at the point of contact, a hook obviously requires that some of the opposing force from your opponent's body goes back down your arm in a mechanically less sound position. I'm sure this point could be explained more cleverly, but in essence, the joins in a hook are in a weaker position in the kinetic chain than they are in a straight shot. Ergo, you will always experience more strain on the muscles involved.

The second is that you do not need to hit hard all the time. In fact, in many respects, the better you get, the more sub-max shots you will throw. In boxing you can quite quickly reach the point where you can fundamentally fight to a reasonable level. Usually about 6-12 months in. This is the point where you have the technique's down, can execute them properly, and have acquired a 'style'. What takes years and years though, is appreciating the subtle nuances of when, where and how to move, how to draw your opponent in, and when to pull the trigger, all that good stuff.


To add to what has been said already then, there are many different types and uses when it comes to the hook. There is the short, inside hook, which hardly travels any distance at all. For one of the all time great short lefts, watch a few clips of Henry Cooper. 'Henry's Hammer' was one of the great short punches of his era, that famously caused Ali all kinds of problems. This punch is a concussive punch, that should really be used to capitalise on an opening you have already created. As an orthodox fighter fighting another orthodox fighter, the best example of its appropriateness is when your opponent has lowered or otherwise moved away his right guarding hand for a split second on the inside. Because you can often end up without much space on the inside, by its very definition, this punch doesn't need, or want, a huge wind up. It is devastating primarily because your opponent does not see it coming, as it travels such a short distance. Ideally, it is coupled with a very slight bob to the outside to avoid a short right hand from your opponent, allowing you to take a half step to close the distance as part of your defensive maneuver, and then exploit the opening. There are of course all kinds of ways of setting up this punch, the above is just an example. One I really like is when you are so close that you're glove to glove on the inside, and is to do a half pivot to your left, simultaneously reaching up and hooking over your opponent's glove. As you pivot, you take your opponent's rear glove forwards and down with you, giving you a split second to touch the canvas with your rear foot, whilst your weight is all on the front foot, and then really rotate your hips back so that all the weight goes onto your back foot and snap in the left hook in the gap you've created by pulling the glove down.

An opposite type of hook is the hook off the jab. This is done at long range, and is more of a pat. The idea is to unsettle your opponent by landing round his guard and make him feel like you're toying with him, or alternatively to try to disturb his rear hand guarding position. When you do the latter, you are trying to force him to over compensate, pulling the rear hand back too far and creating an opening for the straight right, either to the head or a more exposed midsection (it may be the point of his elbow that comes back too far rather than the glove, for example). This punch is not a power punch, it is a strategic punch. You can't develop meaningful power on it, so it is a beginner's mistake to try. You're just trying to swat the chap with this one.

Another type of hook is one that you are using to try to create space when you are on the inside, where the aim isn't necessarily to knock the bloke out, but rather to stun him, or make him react and create openings for you. This hook starts when you are glove to glove on the inside. The idea is that as your opponent starts to feel you going, he will throw a right hand to try to follow you and get you going backwards. So you are on the inside, touching gloves, and instead of a standard pivot and front foot to back foot weight transfer, you are trying to push yourself back onto the backfoot, at the same time turning the left hand all the way over in the hook so that the index knuckle is pointing down at the ground, with contact with the opponent made more on the backside of the glove. With this hook, the hand follows a sort of crescent moon shape, simultaneously turning the wrist through 180 degrees, as you push yourself backwards and still rotate the hips.

A favourite type of hook with beginners is the wild swinging hook from mid range with full power, and, respectfully, is likely what is causing your discomfort. This hook looks similar in the mind of the novice to the very effective mid range hook employed by more seasoned campaigners, but is a world apart in effectiveness. The effective mid range hook follows a much shorter arc, and although it may look more like a swing than a hook, actually follows a similarly tight arc as the short, concussive hook, even if the angle at the elbow is opened slightly to to extend the range. The seasoned campaigner typically couples this kind of hook with the half step in from the pocket (straight punch range) to mid range. The actual mechanics of the hook are very similar to the concussive short range hook, but as mentioned, the primary difference is the angle at the elbow, making the punch slightly more open. Generating power is again a matter of a good hip pivot, ideally coupled with a slight evasive bob to the outside (only usually effective if the opponent has thrown the right, or fainted with it) and catching your opponent off balance, falling in slightly, being sloppy with the return to the guard etc.

The short range concussive hook, the index finger down hook, and the hook off the jab/long range swatting hook don't necessarily require your opponent to have fucked up to be effective. They are designed to either create an opening of themselves for a different punch, or to capitalise on space you have created for yourself. Generally though, the mid range hook requires your opponent to have made some sort of mistake to really be effective. Due to the inevitable arc on the punch, and the distance it must travel, if your opponent hasn't over committed to a punch, been sloppy bringing his right hand back, or got dragged into a gun fight, then swinging a big hard hook at him from this distance is unlikely to be terribly effective, as he will have the time and balance to evade or block the punch. If he does this, you've wasted precious energy. Nothing is more tiring and demoralising (maybe body shots are ) than swinging and missing. This is where the beginner goes wrong with the hook in my view. They see an 'opportunity' too far out from the opponent, when the opponent has, for example, just thrown a technically sound right cross, and think this is their chance for the hook. So they put their heart and soul into it and swing with venom. But because the opponent has kept their balance, withdrawn their right sharply, and not over committed to the punch, they are actually in a very secure position to block or evade the hook, and leave you open for some very effective counters.

A big part of boxing is having the experience to know what is a real opportunity worth committing to the attack for, and what just looks like an opportunity but potentially leaves you more vulnerable than your opponent.

If I had one piece of advice on the hook, it would be 'don't get too hung up on it'. A fighter like Rigondeaux has risen to the top of the sport, and is a spectacular fighter, by being a very effective 1-2 fighter.

Post: #483

H1N1

Post: #484

Fuck me H1N1, that's a comprehensive post!

Got nothing to add really other than a mild disagreement on the jab-hook (or whatever one wants to call it). I've been hit by some heavyweights with these and have been left seeing stars.

Admittedly, a lot of boxing rules go out of the window when the big boys are in town...a mere touch can often leave you horizontal.

Heavyweights and the other weight classes are like The Theory Of Relativity and Newton's laws...everything is the same...until it isn't.

Post: #485

Great post from H1N1 as usual. Only thing I want to add is that the classic amateur elbow up high, arm bent at 90 degrees, backwards weight shifting hook hardly ever lands (you need to be a complete beginner to walk onto one of those). Most pros will keep the elbow down a little until they turn it over at impact. It lands far more often this way as it's harder to see it coming (easier on the shoulders too). Also the rangier reaching forward hook is used all over the place in ams and pros, because it actually lands (and not just for super fast fighters like Jones Jr.).

This video of Ike Quartey doing pad work shows what I mean about keeping the elbow down on the hook (additionally I think Ike Quartey may just have the most perfect jab in history):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_HwYguqgaQ

A punch that I've never been great with is the overhand right. The cubans throw this beautifully if you want to see it in action, and it lands more than you'd expect (I've been caught with a load of them, even though technically it's the easiest punch to see coming in theory).

Post: #486

Samsamsam - Thanks mate, hope it helps!

CBW - Absolutely. There are some guys who can generate incredible power out of nowhere on all these techniques that for most of us are not power shots. As soon as you try to do what I did, and codify something, you are forced to remember all the times it just wasn't so in practice. It's the real beauty of boxing in my view - it really is a sport where most people could become champions if they can recognise their natural talents and work with them to develop an effective strategy. Most people have a combination of abilities which would let them develop, with the right coaching, a specific strategy that let them compete at top levels (assuming the discipline were there of course - an attribute in itself).

Kieran - Appreciate the kind words mate, and a great video to illustrate the point. That reaching hook can definitely be effective, used right.

Post: #487

Yeah good point; boxing is so multifaceted that almost anybody can become good with hard work, no matter their natural physical attributes. Very different to a sport like sprinting.

Post: #488

(11-12-2015 11:04 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  I do this some mornings. When I do it consistently for 2-3 weeks I notice a big difference in my muscular endurance.

Another one that is great as a morning/quick endurance builder, that never seems to get much easier, is doing the 'Bring Sally Up' burpee challenge. 3 and a bit minutes of hell. I may hate burpees more than any other man alive.

With the challenge, you have to do a full pushup and jump burpee. Start in the crouch position. Everytime she says 'Bring Sally Up' do a full burpee. 'Bring Sally Down' is obviously your cue to get back in the crouch position.

Consult your doctor.

Post: #489

I think I may run you close in my hatred of burpees.

Even seeing someone else do them brings me out in a cold sweat.

Post: #490

Listening to that song is bringing back memories of those few times my team would lose a wrestling match. 100 burpees for every pin we gave up.

Oddly enough, I may add that to my morning routine.

Post: #491

I would like to add Powerlifting training before my boxing class and also a heavy bag training after the class, 3 times a week, is it too much?

Post: #492

Had a great session today, took me a few trainings to shake off the rust.

I don't want to say things all make sense to me now, but I have a better understanding and comfort with the hook.

Kept my elbows tight, protected the face, made sure to touch the face each time when alternating punches. Felt good.

I didn't overpunch today, the first couple weeks back, I guess I was just in a nutty mood.

I got to the gym earlier than normal and burned off some energy before mitts, which I think helped. Also, my arms were beat from a heavy upper body lift day yesterday.

I thought I got out of the bad habit of trying to make every punch a knockout punch but it raised its ugly head for the past couple of weeks.

Post: #493

Good to hear mate. I've been working and seeing improvements in my left hook as well. I'm now better with shifting weights so there is more power behind it. My right hand is also always up touching the face while I'm throwing the hook. Many times in sparring I have thrown the hook at the same time as the opponent and landed mine while blocking his, simply because I had my right hand up while he didn't.

Been working on the left hook to the body as well, and have landed a couple of them lately. Not hitting anywhere near full power of course, since it's light sparring, but my partners could feel it.

Been also working on that Tyson's right hook to the body - right uppercut combo during in-fighting practice. It feels really natural to me! Actually landed this combo in sparring the other night, but I pulled the uppercut as my partner was already a bit hurt from the right hook to the body. I ducked under his left hook as he slid in, so he ran straight into my right hook.

I've been seeking out more and more sparring partners lately for controlled sparring session. Found out that my neighbour actually does kickboxing, so we've done a few sparring sessions in the local park. If neighbours in this city get together regularly and throw punches at each other the way we do, the community spirit would be seriously improved!

Post: #494

(11-19-2015 07:58 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  I've been seeking out more and more sparring partners lately for controlled sparring session.

What do you mean by controlled sparring? I'm trying to understand what you mean by it. The way I think of controlled sparing is that you are working without the desire to put everything into the shot. The only way I get a controlled sparring match is usually with someone much more experienced. They generally have nothing to prove but are just paying it forward since others have helped them.

I got offered a chance to spar some actor and my trainer threw out some excuse to the other trainer, "samsamsam just got back from a long absence needs to shake the rust off." It was only later I remembered that green guys are sometimes the most dangerous because they have fear/stress/anger whatever flowing through them. LOL, I was one of them when I first started. I confirmed with my trainer why he didn't let me spar, and that was the reason.

I really do dig the body shot, granted I haven't had a chance to practice it since I have gotten back. The other thing that is starting to stick in my head is boxing is chess. Some moves are just to distract or cause the opponent to open himself up in a way. So many shots can be light in power. Because their goal isn't to damage, it is to create an opportunity for the hammer.

SB, I couldn't find the clip vut when I watched the Golovkin-Lemieux fight, GGG did the same on the hook. They actually pointed it out during the round recap between rounds. GGG landed the hook but blocked Lemieux's hook. It seemed very technically sound. If I can dig it up, I'll post it.

Post: #495

Controlled sparring is sparring done with limitations on speed, power and/or variety of punches, in order to learn good reflexes (i.e boxing reflexes not panic ones). We do this all the time in my boxing classes, and I do the same when I spar other people.

e.g we'd do a number of rounds with these in each:

- just the jab (head or body)
- just the lead hand (jab, uppercut, lead hook)
- just the straight punches
- straight punches plus lead hook
- 3 punches combo you go - I go (one attack, one defend - outside or inside) done at slower than full contact sparring speed
- no contact sparring (i.e keeping the distance, not actually touching each other), one or two punches each (to work on rhythm, leading and following)
- in-fighting but only to the body

etc.

There are unlimited ways to do controlled sparring. I find it a much better way to develop your skills, and I can do this with partners at all skill levels, weight or height. We all learn better reflexes and balance from it. Full speed, full contact sparring all the time just develop lots of bad habits as newbies like me will quickly start to panic and do all kinds of dumb things.

Post: #496

Controlled sparring is sometimes called slow sparring or play sparring.

Different countries/gyms have different names for it.

Post: #497

(11-19-2015 08:51 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Controlled sparring is sparring done with limitations on speed, power and/or variety of punches, in order to learn good reflexes (i.e boxing reflexes not panic ones). We do this all the time in my boxing classes, and I do the same when I spar other people.

e.g we'd do a number of rounds with these in each:

- just the jab (head or body)
- just the lead hand (jab, uppercut, lead hook)
- just the straight punches
- straight punches plus lead hook
- 3 punches combo you go - I go (one attack, one defend - outside or inside) done at slower than full contact sparring speed
- no contact sparring (i.e keeping the distance, not actually touching each other), one or two punches each (to work on rhythm, leading and following)
- in-fighting but only to the body

etc.

There are unlimited ways to do controlled sparring. I find it a much better way to develop your skills, and I can do this with partners at all skill levels, weight or height. We all learn better reflexes and balance from it. Full speed, full contact sparring all the time just develop lots of bad habits as newbies like me will quickly start to panic and do all kinds of dumb things.

That sounds pretty good, I have not really done it that way. Seems like it would be helpful, but my gym doesn't have a lot of guys like me. It has off the street guys like me, but they are there to get a workout/sweat. Few of those guys want to take it to a sparring level and then the rest are pros.

The full sparring speed has, in moments, caused me to forget everything I learned

Come to LA and show me this controlled sparring thing

It may sound weird but it would be cool to meet the guys on this thread in a boxing gym somewhere in the world.

Post: #498

@CBW: My coach calls this "school boxing" sometimes in class.

I'd love to throw a few punches at you when we meet, samsamsam Yeah that'd be awesome!

You can talk people into doing controlled sparring with you. While my boxing club has this culture, few people do take advantage of it. Most seem to avoid sparring outside of class, which is why I seek out whoever seems to be open to the idea.

Post: #499

I'll be moving to Cali sometime this year sam^3

While my boxing skill is probably less than yours, I am always eager to spar anyone and everyone until the point where I can no longer stand.

Post: #500

(11-20-2015 05:17 AM)cascadecombo Wrote:  While my boxing skill is probably less than yours

I highly doubt it. This is the only training I have ever done along these lines. If I remember reading right you have a lot of martial arts experience. I think that regardless of style of training, many years of training help with awareness, tolerance for pain and there are some common shared fundamentals.

How is your pain when you throw the hook? Hope it is getting better.