Post: #551

CBW - you are not a small person by any stretch, in any country.

Post: #552

Back when I worked the streets of London, being built definitely stood out. The workout culture was not rife in UK society by any means and as per dialogue with my spars who still live there and are still swole, things haven't really changed that much. It ties into the British culture of self deprecation where being 'the man' is sneered upon. Regardless of philosophy, it is apparent that this being built is admired most in North America. It doesn't mean that being swole is useless in Europe, it just means that it is not as an important a part of the game arsenal as it is in North America.

Post: #553

(07-20-2015 05:00 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(07-20-2015 04:37 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  I'd say even the typical rugby physique is not as big as many make out. I've been playing for my local town, and most of the backs are about my size - 12 1/2 - 14 stone (I'm 13 1/2). Forwards are obviously bigger, but not by so much as to be ridiculous for the most part.

Taking this way off topic but...

I've spent the last two months working on speed and power and losing mass to play at 6 next season. This made a lot of sense as my team has an absolutely fucking enormous Saffer no8, probably 6'5 and 20 stone of Southern Hemisphere psychotic wrecking ball.

My brother is 6'0 and 15 stone and played 7 at a Prem Academy so at our level that's a back row to utterly dominate every single game we will play next year. An unbeaten season perhaps.

My coach called me last week to tell me Mr Springbok has ruptured his ACL and is out for the season and that I will have to play 8; I'm absolutely gutted...more about the team than anything...he doesn't realise I'm over 2 stone lighter than last year yet either...



Back on topic; when people say "rugby build" I think they mean a muscular middle class guy with 20% body fat. Fit and healthy but happy to have a few pints a couple of times per week. You don't tend to get this in the lower orders.

Oddly enough, it is the guys built like this that I know that have the hottest girlfriends/wives.

Ah gutted for you mate. Our biggest bloke has two ACLs that are shot to hell, and we try to preserve him in aspic. This guy is 'only' 6'3 an 17 stone with insane abs, barely lifts or trains (works as a brickie), and is impervious to pain. I'm from a similar background to you, and this guy was doing some work for my dad one day. I literally watched him fall two stories off a ladder with a hod full of bricks, onto his back and head, and he just stood up, grinned sheepishly, reloaded the hod, and climbed back up the ladder as if nothing had happened. I'm not joking when I say that fall would have killed or crippled the average human being.

My brother's mate was playing for Leicester in the back row, sometimes at number 8, at about your height and weight (as a 21 year old), so I'm sure you'll be able to wreak destruction if you do have to play there.

Post: #554

(07-20-2015 06:25 PM)Moma Wrote:  Back when I worked the streets of London, being built definitely stood out. The workout culture was not rife in UK society by any means and as per dialogue with my spars who still live there and are still swole, things haven't really changed that much. It ties into the British culture of self deprecation where being 'the man' is sneered upon. Regardless of philosophy, it is apparent that this being built is admired most in North America. It doesn't mean that being swole is useless in Europe, it just means that it is not as an important a part of the game arsenal as it is in North America.

Completely agree. I'd say that if there is a point of diminishing returns with all this, you're more likely to find it here in England. I've recently bulked up a bit and am 6'1 196lbs, up from about 185lbs, and there's no doubt it has got a lot of good attention, but I still don't look like a massive bloke.

Post: #555

H1N1 - you in London or the counties?

Post: #556

Agree with CBW 100%. And it's really not about being self deprecating and not wanting to be the man, it's that being the man is about something different in these circles. The whole manosphere act dumb to get hot girls thing is another thing that just doesn't work with these girls either. I mean don't try and show off your intelligence, but being articulate and well spoken, with a quick wit is pretty much a necessity.

Post: #557

(07-20-2015 07:28 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  H1N1 - you in London or the counties?

Used to be in London, but don't have much time for it these days. I'm down near the coast.

Post: #558

I think that one thing to remember is that in general, the UK is much more sexually conservative and has slightly more traditional gender relations than the US (with the exception of a few red states), Australia and Canada.

Although you will see threads on RVF about how a British mother is an absolute slut etc, these are often working class women. Most middle class women are more concealing about their sex lives, and this is from teenage years through adulthood. Obviously there are quite a few exceptions to this during university years, but most chicks will recognise the mistakes they've made and become less slutty.

Whereas I feel as though in the US and Canada especially, women are almost encouraged to be open about their sex lives, and there is more 'moral support' for women who are in essence whores. Therefore the women have more sex, and it's more public.

I feel that this filters down in to how women treat men. The more that the women are sexually free, the more they are attracted to the pure, physical, animalistic features of a man. This is why in Australia, a large minority of guys are fucking huge, as the bar is continually being raised in terms of male physique. Therefore in Australia the point of diminishing returns might be at 8% BF, with the chunky but muscly bodybuilder style frame. In contrast, in most European countries, diminishing returns might be once you go past a Zyzz style physique (basically once you stop looking reasonably slim in clothes or look like you do gear).

Having said that, the point of diminishing returns in almost every country that a Westerner can travel to is unlikely to be reached by anyone not doing gear. The exception to this would be if you are going to a conservative country such as Italy or Croatia and are one of these perma-bulk guys who's strong and muscly, you won't get far with that physique.

In summary, there are a few rules that you can stick by to avoid getting diminishing returns.

1. Stick to 8-12% BF. There are almost no places in the world where you would be considered too ripped or too fat at these levels.

2. In all but the most sexually liberal Western countries, being athletic and lean and having a good personality is more likely to get you laid than being a ripped Jeff Seid type with no personality.

Anyway, height>body. Easy saying that when you're 6"2 I guess.

Post: #559

(07-20-2015 05:49 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  I'm 6'4 @ about 225 right now. Shrinking by the day. I'm approx 30lbs lighter than when I first got injured in the Spring. A couple more kilos and I'll be done I think; just in time for preseason training to get going at full speed.

Since losing this mass I've had numerous people say to me "I didn't realise how tall you were before...you look much better now".

I'm firmly (upper)middle class (private school, wealthy parents etc) and I do not know a single person in my wider circle who is bigger than me, or even close and I'm not huge by any means anymore. I don't know a single girl that has ever shown a huge, muscular guy in public.

I know a lot of people and spend a great deal of time each week in the higher end restaurants and bars of my city. If a bodybuilder type infiltrates these venues they are looked upon as some lower class unwelcome visitor.

Being "overly muscular" is still definitely a working class pursuit in this country.

At the end of the day, if you are too big to look like anything but a breeze block in a suit, you are too big full stop.

Never underestimate the quirks of the UK class system or the norms within.

I'm gonna preface this by saying my stance earlier in the thread was - and still is - that no guy will ever get "too big" without doing 5 years+ of serious weight training, or else doing steroids.

I'm from a similar background (but from across the Irish Sea) and the Zyzz/Jeordie Shore permatanned types with deep v-necks are completely working class, I agree. That's more so down to their trying-too-hard nature than the muscle, though. I think you're attributing the disdain middle class girls have for people like that to their muscles, when its down to their other working class characteristics. I think if you placed someone with a body like Zyzz, with a normal not-orange skin colour, in some nice preppy clothes and gave him an educated accent he'd do very well with middle class girls. In fact, I'd wager he'd do a lot better than a normal sized guy.

Johnny Wilkinson was 5ft 10 and 14 stone (196lb) with around 10 % BF at his playing weight. I don't think any girl would have deemed him working class because of his size. Hes regularly given as an "ideal" build amongst educated girls.You can add on 8lbs per inch of height over that to maintain equivalent size for other heights. So say approx 244lbs or 17.5 stone at your 6ft 4 height - about Nick Easter size.

Most guys will not get that big without 5 years+ of training - or a couple of steroid cycles - so it really isnt something to be worried about. Looking like a chavvy bouncer is only a worry if you are a chavvy bouncer. If you're dressed well, educated etc, the muscles will only be a positive when attracting girls.

edit: though I am in agreement with your points in regard to the "bodybuilder look" being a lower class thing - ie being substantially bigger than a professional rugby player - but to reach that stage you HAVE to be on steroids so it's not really a relevant worry for most people.

Post: #560

Britchard, there is no point mentioning height since one cannot modify height. Height didn't seem to play a major part when I was in London. I don't believe it's an essential part of the arsenal in Europe. One of my mates who I talk to does fine and he is 5'10.

Post: #561

Britchard - your post makes no sense.

Do you know what 8 - 12% body fat looks like with muscles?

Jeff Seid and Zyzz are going to kill it in any country, yes that means the UK as well. Why is Zyzz always mentioned in these discussions.

You say American and Canadian women are more liberal, you got to be out of your mind. British women are easily the most liberal women on the planet, I have lived there for the record. I guess you have never met British women on holiday, not too mention working with them. Notice I didn't mention the word whores.

Have you been to Croatia? I have and I wore a douche bag deep v neck t-shirt and was very well received.

So your rules seem invalid to me.

Post: #562

Lol at the height>body argument. That's like saying height>game. And this is coming from someone who used to be insecure about his height (look at one of my first threads).

I'm not even remotely close to having an elite physique, and the day I was outperforming a 6'4 buddy in the club, where the same girls I had met who were receptive to me weren't giving him a chance, my thoughts on height changed forever. There are way too many factors that play a role in female attraction, and height is not nearly the most important one.

I'm 5'8 (with shoes), for the record.

Post: #563

^^ This.

We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. At the end of the day, no one is really right or wrong.

The only thing we can do is improve ourselves to the best of our ability and willpower.

I think this entire thread can be summed up in one word, moderation.

Use fitness and working out as a supplement to becoming a better man overall, but don't make it your only focus in life and become one dimensional.

Post: #564

This is how chicks read guys' physical attributes in my neck of the woods:

Face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Body >>>> Skin (crystal clear complexion, nice even tan) >> Height (if you are under 5'7" then it is an issue)

I am 6'4" as been well said before... how girls view a guy's height is like how guys view a girl having big tits . It helps your case a bit, but a guy would choose a girl with 7.5 face and B tits over a 6.0 face with D tits almost every time.

Post: #565

Travesty - I am a tit man, just saying.

Post: #566

Quote:Women don't just like men with muscles — they go for them. Men who are more muscular than average are much more likely to have short-term affairs and multiple sex partners than their scrawnier peers, according to new UCLA research published in the August issue of the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.

"If you're trying to figure out why men — especially young men — spend so much time at the gym, here's your answer," said David Frederick, lead author and a UCLA doctoral candidate in psychology. "The stereotype is that men work out to compete with each other, but our research suggests that pumping iron is a way for men to enhance their attractiveness to women."

The series of studies, conducted by Frederick and co-author Martie Haselton, a UCLA associate professor of communication studies and psychology, is the first published research to quantify an association between men's muscularity and their success in the sack. The four-year project also scientifically quantified for the first time women's perceptions of the importance of muscularity in selecting short- and long-term partners.

"A lot of mate-selection research focuses on what men find attractive," Haselton said. "This shows women are putting a premium on attractiveness. Women care about muscularity when they choose sex partners."

Frederick and Haselton lead a team that photographed 99 male undergraduates. A panel of independent judges rated the young men on a nine-point scale, with "1" being much less muscular than average and "9" being much more muscular than average. The researchers then asked the men about their sexual histories.

When compared with their less-muscular peers, young men who were more muscular than average were twice as likely to have had more than three sex partners in their lives.

In another study, Frederick and Haselton asked 120 undergraduate males to rate their own physiques on the same scale and then asked them about their sexual histories.

The self-identified muscular men had not only had more sexual partners than their less burly peers, but they were twice as likely to have had brief flings or one-night stands with women. The difference in the number of sexual partners reported by the men who were more muscular than average was also notable: They reported having had an average of four partners, compared with an average of 1.5 partners for men who reported average or below-average muscularity.

In a similar study, Frederick and Haselton asked 60 undergraduate males an additional question: How many affairs had they had with women who already had a boyfriend at the time of the affair? Muscularity mattered here as well. The more muscular individuals were twice as likely as their less well-built peers to have hooked up with someone else's sweetheart.

The researchers, who are associated with UCLA's Center for Behavior, Evolution and Culture, say that their findings on muscularity are consistent with research findings on the secondary sexual characteristics of other animals, such as the attention-getting tail feathers of male peacocks.

http://phys.org/news/2007-07-weights-res...tners.html

This study is supported by the behavior of women when they're in a relationship. If you're in a relationship with a chick, you're better off keeping the fact that you're going to the gym a secret -- if it was something that you were not accustomed to doing. She will start to get nervous because she knows that you getting into better shape makes you more desirable to other women. That is why women, whether its conscious or not, attempt to make you less attractive once they have you by fattening you up and picking out clothes for you that make you look less appealing.

I've had chicks tell me, "You don't really need to go to the gym anymore", "You don't need to be any bigger", "You're perfect just the way you are".

I start hearing shit like that, and I start doing two-a-days.

Post: #567

(07-21-2015 06:46 PM)Travesty Wrote:  This is how chicks read guys' physical attributes in my neck of the woods:

Face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Body >>>> Skin (crystal clear complexion, nice even tan) >> Height (if you are under 5'7" then it is an issue)

I am 6'4" as been well said before... how girls view a guy's height is like how guys view a girl having big tits . It helps your case a bit, but a guy would choose a girl with 7.5 face and B tits over a 6.0 face with D tits almost every time.

Where do you live? I would of thought height was before body.

Post: #568

I always feel like height only comes up during online game. In the bar, if I'm taller than her, it doesn't matter at all assuming I don't look bad. I've had girls that were 5'2" give me a hard time on Tinder over height and I'm 5'11". It's really a big insecurity thing guys have in the US now. Almost all of the guys list their height in their profiles, probably seeking validation I guess.

Post: #569

(07-22-2015 01:26 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote:Women don't just like men with muscles — they go for them. Men who are more muscular than average are much more likely to have short-term affairs and multiple sex partners than their scrawnier peers, according to new UCLA research published in the August issue of the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.

"If you're trying to figure out why men — especially young men — spend so much time at the gym, here's your answer," said David Frederick, lead author and a UCLA doctoral candidate in psychology. "The stereotype is that men work out to compete with each other, but our research suggests that pumping iron is a way for men to enhance their attractiveness to women."

The series of studies, conducted by Frederick and co-author Martie Haselton, a UCLA associate professor of communication studies and psychology, is the first published research to quantify an association between men's muscularity and their success in the sack. The four-year project also scientifically quantified for the first time women's perceptions of the importance of muscularity in selecting short- and long-term partners.

"A lot of mate-selection research focuses on what men find attractive," Haselton said. "This shows women are putting a premium on attractiveness. Women care about muscularity when they choose sex partners."

Frederick and Haselton lead a team that photographed 99 male undergraduates. A panel of independent judges rated the young men on a nine-point scale, with "1" being much less muscular than average and "9" being much more muscular than average. The researchers then asked the men about their sexual histories.

When compared with their less-muscular peers, young men who were more muscular than average were twice as likely to have had more than three sex partners in their lives.

In another study, Frederick and Haselton asked 120 undergraduate males to rate their own physiques on the same scale and then asked them about their sexual histories.

The self-identified muscular men had not only had more sexual partners than their less burly peers, but they were twice as likely to have had brief flings or one-night stands with women. The difference in the number of sexual partners reported by the men who were more muscular than average was also notable: They reported having had an average of four partners, compared with an average of 1.5 partners for men who reported average or below-average muscularity.

In a similar study, Frederick and Haselton asked 60 undergraduate males an additional question: How many affairs had they had with women who already had a boyfriend at the time of the affair? Muscularity mattered here as well. The more muscular individuals were twice as likely as their less well-built peers to have hooked up with someone else's sweetheart.

The researchers, who are associated with UCLA's Center for Behavior, Evolution and Culture, say that their findings on muscularity are consistent with research findings on the secondary sexual characteristics of other animals, such as the attention-getting tail feathers of male peacocks.

http://phys.org/news/2007-07-weights-res...tners.html

This study is supported by the behavior of women when they're in a relationship. If you're in a relationship with a chick, you're better off keeping the fact that you're going to the gym a secret -- if it was something that you were not accustomed to doing. She will start to get nervous because she knows that you getting into better shape makes you more desirable to other women. That is why women, whether its conscious or not, attempt to make you less attractive once they have you by fattening you up and picking out clothes for you that make you look less appealing.

I've had chicks tell me, "You don't really need to go to the gym anymore", "You don't need to be any bigger", "You're perfect just the way you are".

I start hearing shit like that, and I start doing two-a-days.

The article sums it up nicely. Man this thread has me

Post: #570

I've always been muscular so I take that for granted a bit. I’m 6’4” 200 lbs. When I’m wearing slim jeans and a long sleave shirt I look borderline SKINNY, mostly due to my lankiness. If I have my shirt off I turn girls heads.

The number one thing motivating me to exercise (lift, sprint or yoga) is the urge to optimize my potential gene expression when it comes to athleticism. I’m addicted to that feeling of bouncy lightness much more than I’m addicted to increasing PRs in the weightroom. It’s more tangible day to day. I feel like that throwing weight around shit is something that only earns you validation from other dudes with the same hobby.

If I were 10 lbs bigger my physique would be more noticable. I lift hard (though lean more towards full body movements like squats than muscle isolation stuff) and eat a good amount of healthy food but the weight just doesn’t really come. Oh well.

Girls notice that I move differently than your average. My posture and dynamic flexibility stick out. It helps a lot with dancing too.

I’m not trying to make myself feel better by bagging on big muscular dudes who look like they could kick my ass (they almost certainly could.) I just honestly think you guys who are in there grinding 8-10 hours a week to get from 290 to the big ol’ three plate 315 (or higher) on the bench would serve yourselves well by prioritizing a more well rounded and dynamic type of fitness/conditioning. I’ve been in bbq type settings throwing the football around, and you’ll have some really big jacked looking dude who looks like he’s got a dildo up his ass if he has to stride to make a catch.

I understand the bit about setting goals and working towards them. That’s fulfilling. This is a forum about game though, and as has been stated previously, there’s a certain optimal aesthetic when you’re dealing with high quality women, and it ain’t muscle head.

At the end of the day, do what makes you feel good about yourself.
I know one thing though - there’s no diminishing returns to increasing your explosiveness and mobility.

edit typo

Post: #571

^ You have good height, something that I feel is under-estimated on this forum.

Height and face you cannot control, you deal with the cards god gave you. The body you can control with a lot of hard work.

Personally, I no longer lift weights as it is hard on my joints. Body exercises are the way to go, for me at least.

As you get older, you start to pack on weight more easily. I also play soccer as well and I try to stay active.

I respect the physique Zyzz had, but being dead at a young age over drug abuse is hardly something I respect.

Post: #572

Height does matter but you can't change it. I'm lucky to be 6'2 in that regard, but I started out ultra skinny. We all have our advantages and disadvantages, but at least musculature can be improved with hard work. I'm still far from big, but progress in the gym has helped immensely with game and general confidence.

Oh and last time I checked, most rugby players were pretty damn big compared to the rest of the male population. Ergo, British girls like big guys too.

Post: #573

Height makes it more difficult to fill your frame with muscle but I'm 5'11 (6'0 with shoes) and would trade muscle mass to be 6'3 any day. The problem with being under 6'0 and building muscle is that it makes you look even shorter than you actually are. So a guy who is 5'11 like myself ends up looking 5'9 to the naked eye. In my opinion, there is nothing more immasculating than standing next to men, or even women! who are towering above you so height is extremely important for self-confidence, even more so than lifting.

Post: #574

(07-23-2015 03:19 AM)Adrenaline Wrote:  Height makes it more difficult to fill your frame with muscle but I'm 5'11 (6'0 with shoes) and would trade muscle mass to be 6'3 any day. The problem with being under 6'0 and building muscle is that it makes you look even shorter than you actually are. So a guy who is 5'11 like myself ends up looking 5'9 to the naked eye. In my opinion, there is nothing more immasculating than standing next to men, or even women! who are towering above you so height is extremely important for self-confidence, even more so than lifting.

Are you trolling or being serious? I honestly can't tell.

Post: #575

Fuck that. I'm 5'10" @ ~187lbs at ~10% bf. Chicks go for me over less built 6' tall guys. I want to
Hit 195+.