Post: #1

I was reading a book regarding wealth creation, financial freedom, and your belief system; the similarities were uncanny when it comes to game.

Much has been said on this forum when it comes to approaching, nutrition, working out, day game, logistics, looks and generating wealth. We all know these have a cumulative effect on our ability to attract and bang women. They should all be addressed to maximise your success in the sexual market.

However of equal importance, IMO, is our ingrained belief system when it comes to women. Our past experiences and what we are taught at a young age shape all our interactions with new women we interact with - whether we are aware of this or not. These beliefs become a self-fulfilling prophecy throughout our life and will be directly translated into our actions.

Want to work out your current beliefs when it comes to women?

Think of your results.


How many notches have you had?
How attractive and desirable were the last few women you slept with?
How regularly do you have sex with new women?
How many 8s or 9s have you banged?
How do you respond when you see another man easily pick-up women?

The fruits can always be traced back to your roots.

The man who only ever has sex with 7s and below, believes 8s and above are out of his league and will act accordingly.

The man who struggles to get consistently laid, believes the process of bedding a girl is a struggle and will act accordingly.

The 'average' man who thinks only good-looking men can attract good-looking women, will never be able to bed the 8s or 9s.

If you believe that you have to be rich or famous to pick up 8's or 9's, then you won't have an 8 or 9 until you rich or famous.

These beliefs can be easily stored subconsciously, for example, I remember as a kid whenever I would talk to girls (especially attractive ones), my family would make such a big deal about it. Eventually when I was a teenager, I began to believe that hot women WERE a big deal, and not everyone is entitled to them.

This belief wasn't clear for me until I was in my early 20s that I realised most of my bangs were from 7s or below.

Once I realised this, I was able to understand why whenever I would approach an 8, nothing ever seemed transpire. Even though I was working out regularly and had decent game, I'm convinced it was my belief system about attractive women that was holding me back.

It wasn't until I started actively challenging these beliefs and observing myself in action that things started to change. Whenever I would see a group of women, and was inclined to settle for the 7, I reminded myself that this was my faulty belief pattern kicking in, and would keep my eyes on the 8. I no longer buy the rationale that hot women are hard to get, or such a big deal.

As a result, I've noticed that 8's are JUST as responsive as 7's.

Do you guys relate to this at all?

Post: #2

(12-30-2013 02:35 AM)Prophylaxis Wrote:  How many 8s or 9s have you banged?
...

The man who only ever has sex with 7s and below, believes 8s and above are out of his league and will act accordingly.
...

The 'average' man who thinks only good-looking men can attract good-looking women, will never be able to bed the 8s or 9s.
...

If you believe that you have to be rich or famous to pick up 8's or 9's, then you won't have an 8 or 9 until you rich or famous.
...


This belief wasn't clear for me until I was in my early 20s that I realised most of my bangs were from 7s or below.
...

Once I realised this, I was able to understand why whenever I would approach an 8, nothing ever seemed transpire.
...

Whenever I would see a group of women, and was inclined to settle for the 7, I reminded myself that this was my faulty belief pattern kicking in, and would keep my eyes on the 8.
...

As a result, I've noticed that 8's are JUST as responsive as 7's.
...
Do you guys relate to this at all?

Good post

Right now, I view the ranking system as one of of attainable attractiveness. Higher up, the less attainable. Either the actual type of chick you're looking for is rare and few in number, or her perceived options rule you out.

But I'm coming to the opinion that thinking of women as #'s are part of the problem.

(oh no, has WIA taken the blue pill?!! Am I long term sleeper agent of Jezebel?)

Men, in general, are obsessed with quantification and stats. Perhaps it's out genetic hunter outlook, that's needs to understand the environment and put it in a box, in order for us to move forward on any endeavor. If my life is on the line, what are the chances for my success. (I see a lot of this behavior on the newb board - where they think that success with women is only attainable through maximum effort)

But I think the using "numbers" is part the issue.
Numbers get us away from what the situation is.

What does an 8 represent?
- some objective concept of beauty
- some subjective concept of beauty
- rarity?

Most of us frame the # in terms of attractiveness. Higher up the #, the more attractive she is. Then we just fight about whether a certain girl is truly a 10. And all manner of male irrationality shows up, as personality, behavior, style, and everything else has to be "factored in". Like most of the super models do nothing for me. But an attention whore instagram chick, I'd kill for.

I don't think the # represents some scale of attractiveness.

I think the # represents fear.

A girl of a certain high # 8-10, represents how much you are afraid of her.

You're afraid to talk to her.
You're afraid of the competition, real or imagined.
You're afraid of fucking it up, because when's the next time someone this attractive that you fear will come across your path.
You're afraid that you'll turn into a boot licking beta willing to do any and everything just to be in her present.
You're afraid that you'll lose all sense of game.
And for a tiny fraction of dudes, it's fear of success - you're the coyote



It's fear.

When you think about it, when you're really into a chick, when you behave when you're very sexually attracted,

suddenly the Alpha body language shows up,
suddenly you can flow from the pimp scrolls,
suddenly there are no logistical issues.

Shit's on, you know it, she knows it. That's when you're in the depth of a real biological attraction. Nothing can stop you from getting with this chick. (which brings up a side issue of what game can do for this "cell" level of attractiveness..another post for another time)

But when the 8/9/10 shows up - you're suddenly back in Junior High Mode. Looking at your shoes, your body language cows a bit, suddenly everything else but talking to this chick is important.

You should feel like that super-charged game monster ready to take on the world, instead all you feel is self consciousness and doubt.

That tipsy chubby blonde with the big tits that you couldn't wait to tear into - where's that feeling?

You're afraid of this chick.

This 105 lb, skinny as a a rail, in heels and in a short skirt weakling.

This is your 10. (in my case it'd be a 120 lb voluptuous Latina/Indian/Middle Easterner/Asian/Caribbean at 5'3", in a mini skirt and ridiculously tall heels)

This ain't nervous anticipation, this is fear.

So even if you get the nuts to make your approach, probably after a few whiskys, you're operating on instinct and adrenalin. Rather than fight, you are into flight mode.

So your body language is off.
If your style game is weak, it shows up visually in how you move in your ill fitting and poorly matched clothes
You're scrambling for something to say, so you improvise poorly, or you stick with stock openers that have no pop to it.

Everything you've learned, that confidence from lots of approaches, the experience of bedding lots of chicks - it's like it was for nothing.

This chick induces fear in you, gives your body the fear response, and you just don't know what to do with it.

How do you develop chemistry with a chick, when your internal chemistry is working against you?

Most players, vets even - myself included, are reaching for something to calm us down, get us out of our heads, out of the fear zone - but I don't think any of us realize that the base of this thing is fear. (Least I haven't, which is probably why I'm not where I want to be in terms of my game)

So I wouldn't come at this from a "my family, my friends, society told me that this was a big deal". That might be the root of it, or part of it at least for me.

But now I know this thing is unfounded and unnatural fear.

Miss me with the bromides of,"there's nothing to fear but fear itself"
Fear itself is pretty scary.

But now that I see it...I can work through it.

WIA

Post: #3

Definitely relate.

I made my own bed with regards to limiting beliefs, it wasn't via family or friends it was just from me telling myself from almost the first time i realised how attractive girls were that i was always going to have the girlfriends and a wife that everyone else wanted. The girl that turns even the other girls heads.

So I have always had high standards when it comes to women and their looks. And totally unreasonably so. Until i was 23 i'd only slept with 5 girls. Partly as i had a gf at university for three years (yeah i know.. stupid or what.. but she was also the girl every guy at uni wanted to bang, so i forgive myself), but mostly because i had no knowledge of game at all, or what it was that attracted girls. I'm decent looking and in good shape but i certainly don't wow girls with my looks and stature at 5'9.
As i wouldn't even bother trying to bang less than a 7 (i just don't get excited by it, never have?) i only ever got laid a few times in my teens. And it was purely natural game/luck that got me those bangs way above my 'level' at that point. Obviously having a model girlfriend at university gave me the (false) confidence that i was right to aim for 8's and 9's but in reality i had no idea how or why i attracted her/them.

This then really fucked me over for a few years after university.. i was single and i wouldn't lower my standards and couldn't game girls in London for shit. It eroded away a lot of my positive beliefs about myself with women.. which then started to affect my self esteem in life as a whole. Literally i went 6 months without sex once. And i started to believe like you say that maybe getting the type of girls i want is actually really hard, and that maybe the 7's and 8's are out of my league. Which when you start on 8's and 9's is a real body blow...!

Luckily the rest of my life was on track well enough to keep me going and feeling just about ok with things. It wasn't until i watched my flatmate lay some really hot chicks after being what i thought at the time was a total dick, that i started to realise what it was that i did to get those lays and girlfriends i had got in the past (acting laid back and pretty disinterested.. basically cocky/funny & push/pull but before i knew what they were in game parlance). I then realised that maybe i could do something about it and read The Game (great book, fun story, loads of weird shit in there about MM etc BUT the overall ideas and strategies had clear merit if you could avoid becoming a clown IMO) and started to piece this stuff together. And BOOM, within months i was starting to add notches and flags of 7s and 8s. And a year later laid my first genuine 9.
One girl who i laid and had known for years actually asked me if i had been hypnotised to become a confident and aggressive predator! She couldn't understand how i was so different. In a good way..
All because of belief and inner game, I changed nothing else as i was already doing most other things right.

So fast forward to now, and i have internalised that my 'level' is that high, that I truly believe i deserve 8's and above. I know my value and i now have enough game to get them, my focus is 100% on quality; both looks and personality.
She has to interest me and excite me sexually beyond just her looks. Unless she's a 9. Then she can be a wet rag for all i care...

It's difficult though, as the reality is for men with testosterone coursing through their veins, hot girls ARE a big deal. It's all relative to what you achieve and believe you can achieve in girls of course, but to me a real, true 9 is still a big deal, and i think it will still be that way even if you've slept with lots of them. I'm in no way a regular 9 basher.. but i'm learning after 5 or 6 of them that you have to accept they ARE going to seem a big deal, your brain and balls will try to fuck you up if you give them a chance and you have to be super aware of that. Maybe i've still got work to do on inner game... or maybe it's the fact that inevitably there will always be a new 'the hottest' chick you've ever tried to game... and i feel that surely that will always be a big deal? And maybe thats a good thing?


Wow, shit. This is a long post! Just the OP really resonated with my experience.. hope there's some value in there for someone somewhere..

Edit: WIA's response rocks. Fear is life's great motivator. Any ideas on how to best turn it to your advantage would be much appreciated..!

Post: #4

Ever notice that when you experience some "revelation" amongst your own life that some guy goes and makes a post that would have made your hard lesson even easier to handle?

Post: #5

I don't know why, but I've never liked the phrase "belief system" there is something really nerdy about it.

Post: #6

(12-30-2013 09:04 AM)soup Wrote:  I don't know why, but I've never liked the phrase "belief system" there is something really nerdy about it.

Inner game brah

Post: #7

WIA, the rating system is there not for your own preferences but for how women are perceived in society. It's important because it can inform you about how they see themselves and what kinds of attitudes and bitch tests you might encounter.

A good example of this is that 9s and 6s can require different approaches. If you push away the 9, she's more likely to be attracted to you whereas that might be overkill if you di the same with the 6.

It has nothing to with whether or not you actually are more attracted to the six (sometimes a girl who is more available will give you a bigger hard on then the pretty girl who seems impenetrable).

Post: #8

I don't relate to anything these days.

However, what you're saying sounds reasonable. The barriers that one sets up psychologically often turn out to be based on nothing. It's actually probably more beneficial to aim higher and miss, with women and with many other things, than to aim low and hit.

If you force yourself to try, you will end up improving despite any potential failure you face. Again, works with women as with other aspects of life.

But I don't think the hot ones are as easy to pull. I think all women are different and some are more conducive to my style of interaction than others. I've gotten a lot of attention from hot girls who share my interests on the same day that I've been royally shit on by less attractive girls who just don't see the world the way that I see it.

The point I'm trying to make is that for me, the best results (life results, that is) come from sincerely trying to get what you want, and ejecting immediately if you realize that you don't want it any more or that it's not good for you. If you focus your efforts like this you will end up closer to what you want.

I'm not a fan of rating girls by number, but I suppose this means that there are some 10s who would really love to be with you, and some 5s who don't see why anyone would want to be with you. Might as well go for the hotter ones then.

Post: #9

Soup wrote:
> It has nothing to with whether or not you actually are more attracted to the six (sometimes a girl who is more available will give you a bigger hard on then the pretty girl who seems impenetrable).

polymath wrote:
> I'm not a fan of rating girls by number, but I suppose this means that there are some 10s who would really love to be with you, and some 5s who don't see why anyone would want to be with you. Might as well go for the hotter ones then.

For whatever reason, I've never felt I don't deserve or rate very attractive women, even the ones deemed 9s and 10s by society. At the same time, to Soup's point, there are many 9s and 10s that I have no sexual interest in, so the rating system isn't the ultimate decider of who I pursue and who I don't.

If you are attracted to a woman, go after her. If you fail completely to garner her interest, at least you will have tried and it will make it easier the next time you see/meet an attractive woman. If you make any progress toward getting her in bed (you talk to her, you get to know her, you see her naked, you fuck her, etc), you'll be better off than if you did nothing. Pretty simple.

I've never regretted pursuing a woman I've wanted to fuck.

Post: #10

(12-30-2013 11:25 AM)hardman Wrote:  Soup wrote:
> It has nothing to with whether or not you actually are more attracted to the six (sometimes a girl who is more available will give you a bigger hard on then the pretty girl who seems impenetrable).

polymath wrote:
> I'm not a fan of rating girls by number, but I suppose this means that there are some 10s who would really love to be with you, and some 5s who don't see why anyone would want to be with you. Might as well go for the hotter ones then.

For whatever reason, I've never felt I don't deserve or rate very attractive women, even the ones deemed 9s and 10s by society. At the same time, to Soup's point, there are many 9s and 10s that I have no sexual interest in, so the rating system isn't the ultimate decider of who I pursue and who I don't.

If you are attracted to a woman, go after her. If you fail completely to garner her interest, at least you will have tried and it will make it easier the next time you see/meet an attractive woman. If you make any progress toward getting her in bed (you talk to her, you get to know her, you see her naked, you fuck her, etc), you'll be better off than if you did nothing. Pretty simple.

I've never regretted pursuing a woman I've wanted to fuck.

My point is that what regardless of what your preference is, women are very social, and will act differently if they believe they are considered to be either more or less attractive.

Post: #11

Also, update your belief system about yourself!

You are capable of much more than you think.

Post: #12

@ WIA, I agree. The 1-10 rating system = fear. That, and societal standards.

My own personal "10" is my own personal end game girl. Far different from a "10" supermodel, who also often doesn't do as much for me as a DTF 7 with a little baby fat and eager to please head game. Compared to the skinny "10" model who's had her ass kissed her whole life, and expects the same in bed.


@ OP Yeah, belief system is huge. Having a bit of entitlement can take you up a lot further as far as quality goes. + game to back it up, and you're in good shape to getting what you want.

That said, I still think testosterone, or sheer masculinity is a factor for attracting the most feminine of women. I see these types of girls with the most brute force style of alphas. They aren't usually my personal "10" 's, but they are certain girls I would love to fuck.

I'm not sure belief system can always override primitive chemical reaction. As WIA alluded to in his cell theory. But I believe game + belief can get you 90%+ there, and provide a lifetime of more than enough high quality options.

For happiest life; choose the girls who choose you.

Post: #13

(12-30-2013 08:21 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  But I'm coming to the opinion that thinking of women as #'s are part of the problem.

Mark Manson touched up on this point a while ago, and I pretty much agree with him.

To me, the 10 scale just seems to be a form of pedestalization. And by doing that your bad beliefs will likely show up.

The moment I stopped rating girls I saw, I already felt far less anxiety in general.

(12-30-2013 12:29 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Also, update your belief system about yourself!

You are capable of much more than you think.

#1 thing I need to do in all honesty. I have a lot of bad beliefs I need to get rid of, and so I imagine, do many other guys, especially those just getting started.

Deserves its own thread IMO.

Post: #14

Guys you can't pretend that there isn't an objective rating system.

Post: #15

(12-30-2013 01:10 PM)Libertas Wrote:  

(12-30-2013 12:29 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Also, update your belief system about yourself!

You are capable of much more than you think.

#1 thing I need to do in all honesty.

This is the #1 thing that all underachieving guys need to do.

As far as a "rating system", if 8s, 9s, and 10s scare you, approach more 8s, 9s, and 10s. Get comfortable talking to them. This is the best way to change your "belief system" about them. Take aggressive action.

Post: #16

At Soup, the floor is yours break it down.

Just assume we're talking about white girls in America.

Post: #17

Anything less than 5 is defined as not being able to pass the boner test even under intoxication.

5 is a girl who passes boner test under intoxication but not without.

6 average girl who is banagbable without booze but is at the back of the line.

7 is cute girl. She's not stand out beautiful but she's in good shape.

8 - girl is attractive enough to make a living off her looks. There is a big spectrum in 8s. At the entry level you have service industry waitresses then bartenders. Moving up you have strippers and actors. A high 8 is modeling.

Between 9 and 9.5 you have at the lowest level fashion models who are in magazines etc. And towards 9.5 are the most beautiful women on the planet- the super model types. All 9s make the lower groups of women look like men.

10 is the ultimate ideal of beauty that is the hottest woman to all men at all times ever. 10 does not exist in reality but is there to remind you that no woman is perfect.

The closest thing we have to that are myths, goddesses, dreams, and fantasies. They can get infinitely close to ten but, like the speedof light, they can never reach it. Most of these, like Aphrodite probably exist in the 9.7-9.95 range.

The most attractive actual woman on earth at any given time is the 9.5-9.6.

Post: #18

I used the # rating system in my original post because it is a quick and easy way to quantify the attractiveness of women. However, I don't think it actively supports your ability to score top tier women. While you can dissociate yourself from it (took me a while), I really think WIA hit the nail on the head in that it represents fear. You're instantly handicapping yourself before you've even stepped up to the plate.

Why put all that extra pressure on yourself?

If you adopt a similar mindset when approaching average and attractive women then you will have greater success. I disagree that you need to drastically change your game for the top-tier women.

For the purposes of irony:
In my experience, I've never scored an 8 or 9 using a 'special' type of game. As WIA mentioned, if your mindset is similar when approaching these women, it will be far more easier to inject some sexual tension into the interaction. When all you're thinking about is how badly you want to bang her, suddenly she is no longer a '9', but a sexy minx with a great ass. Game will be oozing through you!

Post: #19

redacted

Post: #20

it seems to me that were discussing two different rating systems and which of the two is better. i also believe that there is no clear winner because people will believe and support the one that works best for them.

Post: #21

(12-30-2013 08:57 PM)-Snake- Wrote:  it seems to me that were discussing two different rating systems and which of the two is better. i also believe that there is no clear winner because people will believe and support the one that works best for them.

This isn't a duel to the death. It's talking about the different ways to look at the problem.

The issue is how do you deal with girls at a higher level of attractiveness.

1) OP said it was belief system

2) My point is muddled, but essentially, using the rating system kind of handicaps you. The real issue isn't her beauty per se, but your irrational fear of it. And possibly to suggest that fear interferes with your natural feelings of lust you have with someone less physically perfect.

3) Soup rightly argues that the rating system isn't just some subjective measure out there, and all we need to do is ignore it, but that a 9.5/9.6 requires different game.

Some of us agree with the idea of an objective scale, but then we break down the nitty gritty of what may or may not be different about approaching a woman of a certain caliber.

I don't think anyone here is looking to "win", we're trying to explore and tease out the idea.

What we're ultimately looking for is more "tech" to throw into our individual arsenals when we come across these situations.

So someone reading this thread might really resonate with the limiting beliefs idea. And that's what it takes for them to get to that next level. A lot of guys in the game don't believe they deserve a 10 in their lives. They feel that they aren't tall enough, rich enough, muscular enough, et cetera.

Others might like the idea of fear, and not focus on her external attractiveness, but on the internal and irrational feelings of fear. Why am I feeling like this? It makes no sense.

Still others don't delve into either limiting beliefs or internal fear, and approach the situation from a practical perspective. The more attractive a chick is, the more she may have X type of personality, which we rarely deal with, because 9+'s are rare. Thus if that's how society is rating her, we employ certain strategies to get at her.

All different approaches to a common problem. There need not be one solution, because the problem is complex.

The only person "winning" in this discussion (and any discussion really) is the reader. None of us have anything to prove. But I think we can all learn from each other

WIA

Post: #22

Right, I agree that no one is wrong. I was just posting what came into mind after reading the thread. I wasn't siding with anyone or whatever. I also think that this is subjective because soup is in no way scared of women while some of us are.